[Per]

Whenever I fly long-haul there is just one thing that kills me when in economy: sleep. I arrive incredibly tired, my shoulders are killing me and I feel completely zonked for the next day or two.

The one thing I value over anything in business is simply to lie flat on my side. The food is nice, the lounges are great, speedy checkin is good…but when I get sleepy the best thing ever is just to turn over and sleep. I arrive actually feeling okay, jetlag is easier to deal with and I feel more relaxed.

I wonder if anyone else feels the same as me. Every biz product out there offers so much – elegant food, lounges, priority checkin, priority boarding. It’s great but not what I really value. I just want to get enough sleep. Maybe also enough space so I can do some work? And by space I don’t mean leg room I mean horizontal space.

I’m wondering why there is no carrier offering a more basic biz class. I guess Mint is the closest you would get. Just less frills, nothing fancy, just a nice comfy bed. I would even be happy with some sort of bunk bed. As long as I can get horizontal I am happy!

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Shamsh, jsn55, EU_Flyer, TupeloKid, PeterCoultas

[SimonS1]

[quote quote=1094587]I’m wondering why there is no carrier offering a more basic biz class.[/quote]

Emirates has been offering this for about 2 years. No lounge access (unless status), no chauffeur, no advance seat selection, no mileage upgrades.

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kevin46

[cwoodward]

The answer is perhaps a very simple one.
‘Airlines sell space’
In business class space is the primary commodity and that is what makes upmost of the ticket cost.
The lie-flat seat has latterly come to assume a ‘must-have’ role and a costly feature for the airlines to provide but everything else offered is relatively easy to change as required and at minor cost component of the overall fare
Airlines would be shooting themselves in the pocket by offering any sort of lie-flat at economy pricing and it would never stack up financially which is why it will never happen.

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woodyhoo, esselle, EU_Flyer, Inquisitive

[StigO]

I am fullt agree on this. That’s also what I have been looking for. The food and lounges is not important for frequent travelers, we simply enjoy sleeping and going straight for work.

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Shamsh, jsn55

[rferguson]

There is an airline that offers JUST the lay flat seat actually.

ZIPAIR – https://www.zipair.net/en/service/seat

ZIPAIR is to JAL what Jetstar longhaul is to Qantas. A low cost long haul subsidiary that compliments the mainline mother on some routes and takes over entirely others. ZIPAIR was originally meant to have flights to destinations such as BKK, PNH and HNL although I imagine few of these are flying due to the pandemic.

The service on the entire aircraft is totally unbundled and the fully flat product is called – ‘Zip Full Flat’.

There are four Zip Full Flat products:
1) Simple. Just the seat
2) Biz. Which includes a seat assignment and carry on bag.
3) Value. As for Biz but also a checked bag and meal.
4) Premium. As for Biz but with an ‘amenity’. Not sure if that refers to an amenity kit or whether it’s also things like pillows and blankets.

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cwoodward

[Justin Germany]

There are two other, more important reasons why there are few low-cost, long haul business class options: 1) connecting flights and 2) frequent flier rewards.
On 1, long haul carriers rely heavily on connecting passengers via their hubs from short haul to long haul. Particularly in Europe, there is a huge population of people, relatively few of whom live close to a long-haul airport, hence the vast amount of connecting flights to/from Heathrow, CDG and Frankfurt. They feed long haul flights, meaning that airlines can offer routes that would be marginal or unprofitable with only point-to-point revenue. It also allows extra frequency on busier routes, meaning more schedule choice for passengers. Schedule is often more important than cost. Low cost long haul operators typically don’t have connecting flights (are there any in Europe?), which makes it hard for them to compete.
On 2, full-service carriers offer frequent flier rewards, which can be quite generous on long haul premium class tickets. I use mine cleverly, meaning that I can get two Germany-UK return flights, often when the cash price is >€200 per flight, by using the airmiles from just one long haul return flight. Obviously the points from long haul tickets also keep many of us in statuses that give us lounge access etc. even when we fly economy.

I personally don’t think there will ever be a serious market for low-cost, long haul business class flights. Airlines such as Ryanair and EasyJet, both with very large short haul networks to non-LHR London airports, have obviously looked at adding long haul flights from their hubs, but they still don’t offer them despite flying for decades, due to the reasons above plus a few others.

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Shamsh

[LaWhore]

Long haul low cost biz will not take off as the current designs available on the market are inefficient vertically. A new concept would have to be certified, similar to crew bunk beds, in order to increase the number of beds available per aircraft and subsequently drive the prices down to appeal to the premium economy segment type of pax.

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jsn55

[Stevescoots]

whilst i do treasure the ability to sleep, for me its the all round ability to sleep and work in relative comfort and peace either on the flight or on the ground. I like my solitude when travelling. would i forgo the lounge, better food, peace and quiet to save money? I doubt it. The odd time i have flown Y in recent years and not had the lounge access or Bigger J seats really made me appreciate what i pay the extra for

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fatbear, cwoodward

[rferguson]

In terms of ‘the business class experience’ there’s so many variables that go into how I rate a flat bed versus catering versus space.

If i’m travelling alone i’ll try and avoid 2 x 2 x 2 set ups whether fully flat or not and instead try and opt for a 1-2-1 deal. If i’m travelling with the other half, it’s the opposite.

On long daylight flights in flight offerings like catering, service, IFE, WiFi take precedence over the fully flat bed. On a night flight, i’m usually not so bothered by what i’m fed on board, I want to sleep.

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Shamsh, EU_Flyer, ASK1945, DavidSmith2, DerekVH

[FormerBA]

I think there is a confusion here about what low costs is and what is simply rip off pricing.
Business class and First is just about space and the higher the class the more space you have. The rest of the flummery adds little to the fare but may add much to the perception (especially to those who look on with envy at fast track and lounge access). Yet the fare difference can be many more times the actually space being occupied and it dose not make much sense.

As many know, the cost of flying ex LHR is ludicrously high compared with flying ex EU. Fares available from ARN, AMS, CPH, DUS and even CDG, on say Qatar, are invariably significantly less than flying ex LHR.

For example Qatar Airways to

Singapore out 3/8/21 back 5/8/21
ARN £1,868
AMS £1,980
LHR £3,411

The only thing that differs is that the first sector and this difference is repeated again and again across most departure point in Europe, only the gnomes of ZRH pay more on the dates above.

Those dates were chosen deliberately to avoid being away over a Saturday. When the dates are adjusted to include being away over a Saturday the ARN fare falls by almost £600 but LHR fare remains around £3,000

What justifies the £1,500 – £1,800 per person fare difference? It cannot simply be down to supply and demand?

If you strip out lounge access or food from the LHR fare it will still be far far higher.

This phenomenon is repeated across most carriers and is often most marked by BA when selling on indirect routes ex the EU. I have recently taken a gamble on an ex EU flight later in the year to Asia. Ex CDG the fare was £1,489 in Business which I have upgraded to F using Avios. If I booked ex LHR on exactly the same flights the fare is
£1,201 Economy
£3,098 Business
£3,695 First

It is double the price to originate in LHR yet I fly more, burn more fuel, sit in the same seat, eat the same food, drink the same drinks. I also get access to a Lounge in CDG and the Concorde room out and back for half the price of flying.

So no I wouldn’t want to see service in J and F treated as they are in economy.

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alainboy56, Shamsh, Inquisitive

[MartynSinclair]

[quote quote=1094685]This phenomenon is repeated across most carriers and is often most marked by BA when selling on indirect routes ex the EU. I have recently taken a gamble on an ex EU flight later in the year to Asia. Ex CDG the fare was £1,489 in Business which I have upgraded to F using Avios. If I booked ex LHR on exactly the same flights the fare is
£1,201 Economy
£3,098 Business
£3,695 First[/quote]

I was able to evidence a couple of years ago during an avios promotion, that the ex-EU fare, meant BA were PAYING me to fly, on their metal. I recall one trip ex EU to Asia (via LHR), taking in BKK and HKG in Club, for a fare of Euros 1,400, sufficient avios were achieved for 9 return flights in economy or 9 sectors in business to zone 1 EU (Germany, Netherlands and Milan). Of course I had my positioning flights to pay for, via avios…

A very cheap trip indeed in business with a very comfy flat seat….

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Shamsh

[JDTraveller]

Business class and First is just about space and the higher the class the more space you have. The rest of the flummery adds little to the fare but may add much to the perception (especially to those who look on with envy at fast track and lounge access). Yet the fare difference can be many more times the actually space being occupied and it dose not make much sense.

Agree with this entirely. Given the cost of lounge access at LHR ranges from £25-£40 and inflight catering is probably no more that £50 PAX. Taking £100 off the price of the ticket is not going to make an airline “low cost”, and overall the perceived value of these are significantly higher to the average traveller.

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Shamsh

[FaroFlyer]

Per, you have not mentioned the routes that you want this product on.

[canucklad]

[quote quote=1094685]What justifies the £1,500 – £1,800 per person fare difference? It cannot simply be down to supply and demand?[/quote]

I think the clue is in the name … “ Business Class”

I’d assume those of us who aren’t in the high tax band category only ever enjoy “C” if either the company pays for it directly or we sacrifice our points to upgrade when we’re travelling for leisure . In reality , unless you have substantial disposable income business class just isn’t value for money.
The differential between “y” and “c” IMO doesn’t justify the outlay ,after all how many of us would spend 1K + for an overnight stay in a tiny hotel room ?
I would rather spend the cash saved on the flight enjoying my destination more .

Don’t get me wrong, if I could afford to have a bed on long haul to and from HKG or YVR or wherever I’m flying it would be my first choice

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Shamsh

[rferguson]

I think the customer profile in business class changed a fair bit over the past ten years. Definitely at BA anyway. And not just Club World, but First as well.

When I first started working as crew on ‘the big jets’ nine times out of ten I was relegated to working in economy. We chose our working positions on the day by seniority and the seniors would always flock to First and Club. It was predominantly execs that would be in those cabins and they’d generally work or sleep. Night flights from the US East Coast were a dream in First. You’d board your 14 guests, 12 of them would likely go straight to bed after wheels up, the other two would likely have a plate of cheese or a night cap before doing the same. You’d switch the lights on 40 minutes before landing, make a few coffees and 14 Hot Breakfasts would go in the bin or to the crew working ‘down the back’. With three of you looking after 14 customers life was good. Club was the same. In a cabin of 86 J seats you might have three or four eat a full meal. Another handful with a nightcap. And the overwhelming bulk straight to sleep for the entire flight. Seven of you looking after them, easy. In economy you’d spend the day or night running up and down the aisles responding to constant call bells and people wanting extra drinks.

Then, it all changed. The CEO’s and Directors that would usually be sat in F ended up in J and many of the execs that would normally be in F were relegated to W or even Y. And we saw more and more and more premium leisure travellers. GONE were the days I describe above. The senior crew now flocked to Economy for an easy life whilst the most junior like me found ourselves in F and J.

JFK or IAD or BOS – LHR departing around 22:00 all of a sudden became a very different affair. We’d have leisure couples and families making up the bulk of the customers in F and J. And generally, they would take EVERYTHING offered. In First Class on a 5hr55minute flight to the UK it was very much the norm to serve a full four course dinner to almost everyone, make up the beds for 70 minutes and then have them waking up wanting a fully cooked breakfast before landing. These customers didn’t have the worry of landing at LHR and needing to arrive fresh(ish) at the office in time for a meeting. They were enjoying what was left of their vacations and many were definitely of the ‘retired’ vintage.

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alainboy56, Shamsh, RomP, CAI, fatbear, Jacob, canucklad, DerekVH, EU_Flyer, cwoodward, FormerBA

[Author]

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