[SimonS1]

[quote quote=1000222]How on earth is social distancing going to be enforced in boarding / disembarking areas of airports? As for cruise liners…..[/quote]

Simple answer, it won’t. There isn’t the space. The Noel Phillips/KLM video linked on BT yesterday showed that.

But take a pair of good earplugs to drown out the incessant and monotonous ‘social distancing’ announcements though….

[canucklad]

[quote quote=1000267]A first small step towards making that silly catchall phrase ‘The New Normal’redundant.[/quote]

Fingers and toes crossed !

[quote quote=1000281]The testing equipment didn’t exist 2 months ago. The instant tests kits were simply not available or accurate enough. It’s only now that capacity and reliability has come on stream.[/quote]

Agreed Simon, however there was other options out there, apart from chucking us all in a cage for 3 months.
Including managing people through our airports, train stations. and topically care homes

[SimonS1]

[quote quote=1000285]Agreed Simon, however there was other options out there, apart from chucking us all in a cage for 3 months.
Including managing people through our airports, train stations. and topically care homes[/quote]

But your point was we should have invested in instant testing equipment 2 months ago. How can you purchase something that doesn’t exist?

How would you have “managed people” through airports and train stations without substantially reducing demand (ie asking people to stay at home). The train operators say you would need to operate as low as 15/20% of capacity to maintain distancing.

[Cedric_Statherby]

[quote quote=1000267]A first small step towards making that silly catchall phrase ‘The New Normal’ redundant.[/quote]

“The New Normal” is a dreadful phrase, isn’t it. As someone who used to work in finance, I am ashamed to say it comes from the financial world, where the emergency actions of the authorities to counter the financial crisis of 2008 included austerity, very very low interest rates and massive central bank purchases. All of which are to a large extent still with us, if not being doubled down on, so in that sense the phrase “the New Normal” has some legitimacy – we’ve been stuck with this policy mix for over 10 years and it has, in a sense, become the new normality. Who can remember when one last got a decent amount of interest on one’s savings?

But the mere thought that cancelled or difficult travel, social distancing, face masks, restrictions on liberty, closed schools and offices etc will be with us for 10 years, or even that we should try to get used to it (which is what the phrase “new normal” implies of course) is unthinkable. We should never allow ourselves to be brainwashed into thinking this is normal, new or otherwise.

So, I would go further: the catchall phrase is not silly, it is Orwellian in the extreme, and an outright lie. It is a ploy by those who want us to accept the restrictions they are imposing on us as inevitable and routine. But they are not: there is nothing normal about “the New Normal”, and we owe it to ourselves to make sure it never becomes so.

I dismount.

2 users thanked author for this post.

ASK1945, cwoodward

[canucklad]

Since you asked Simon 😊
And with the benefit of hindsight and the knowledge I’ll never be asked to join the SAGE group here’s a few basic processes…..

BIG EDIT – I had listed 4 things I would have done differently, then realised , it all amounts to the same….

We currently have the 2nd worst death rate in the world, despite our governments adopting a sledgehammer approach to this …. Arguably a few weeks too late, but just as draconian eventually (especially up here) as other countries.
What we, and other countries haven’t done is aggressively seek out , probably a better phrase would be “ hunt down “ the virus, or more specifically the hosts it relies on.

As I’ve already said, the mistakes that have led to the catastrophic situation in the care homes is a perfect microcosm of the country as a whole

Even before we descended into the abyss, we were told that old people were in the most vulnerable category and should be shielded.
Therefore it makes total logical sense to remove them from the safety of hospitals and put them beside other old people, being looked after by non- tested , non-protected carers.

Whether or not it was arrogance, ignorance , stubbornness or just sheer ineptitude , we stuck to a linear path of passive resistance, because that was the best solution for the UK . Rather than quickly adopting the best of what the rest of the world was doing, we tried to create our solutions from scratch . We were instructed to adopt a blitz spirit , stand (not literally) together to get through this, yet and continuing the metaphor whilst we were all huddled down the Underground, it seems that no one was building any Spitfires, just hoping the bombs didn’t do much damage and would eventually stop

IMO, it’s never been about saving lives, its been about making sure that the BBC, SKy, ITV CNN et al weren’t broadcasting pictures of people dying oin corridors, or worse in the streets as they did in Italy and Spain — And to their credit, that’s been avoided !

Before I get off my horse, I’ll say again, I don’t blame our governments . That finger is pointed at China. And its inability to stop their citizens barbaric treatment of rats, bats, cats, dogs and other animals in the markets all over China. Which is still be allowed to go on !!

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capetonianm

[DavidGrodentz]

Canucklad, China made some mistakes at the start of this, but there is also some evidence to show that the virus was in other parts of the world (probably through travel to and from China) before the Wuhan authorities learnt about it and tried to cover up the virus

But China learnt its lesson and enforced a massive lockdown in Jan. that lesson was not learnt by other countries that still (at the time) took it as an Asia problem

Countries that have faired better introduced lockdowns, quarantine of arrivals, border closures and other restrictions earlier. Whereas, too many countries made the same mistakes, or mistakenly thought they could do a better job

2 users thanked author for this post.

FaroFlyer, ASK1945

[ASK1945]

davidGrodentz wrote: “……………….. too many countries made the same mistakes, or mistakenly thought they could do a better job”.

The arrogance of the politicians and civil servants in the Department of Health in the UK is absolutely breathtaking.

Our new Test and Trace system was described by the politicians last week as “World Class”. I have been hearing from several “Tracers” who have described the whole thing as a stunning shambles and embarrassment. Over a week in and some have received no training, no calls, but are being paid for sitting near their computers.

I have friends who are dentists: despite working fully or partially in the NHS they can’t reopen their surgeries because they cannot obtain the relevant PPE supplies needed. They say that anyway the PPE requirement they have been ordered to use, infection controls and operating procedures to implement, are far in excess of anything anywhere else in the World, with no scientific basis.

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cwoodward, DavidGrodentz

[canucklad]

[quote quote=1000302]But China learnt its lesson and enforced a massive lockdown in Jan. that lesson was not learnt by other countries that still (at the time) took it as an Asia problem[/quote]

Hi David, apologies if I didn’t make myself fully understood. I’m not blaming China for it’s handling of all this, after all it’s one of the few countries left in the world that can rapidly enforce draconian measures on its own people. In fact it’s very impressive that at its prime point (Covid19) only Wuhan suffered , and only had 3000 deaths . Shanghai, Beijing and other major cities were pretty much unaffected., fantastic pandemic management.

Again I’m not a medical expert, but there is a theory that says each new virus is becoming more virulent , apparently because bats are the only mammal that can fly their bodies adapt to these viruses that share their habitat. So why after so many recent scares and now one that isn’t a scare but a reality does Beijing covertly allow the continuation of barbaric husbandry in its cities and rural communities ?

That’s were my finger is pointed –

Talk about a smoking gun somewhere out there ?

1 user thanked author for this post.

DavidGrodentz

[DavidGrodentz]

ASK1945. When this first started in the UK, we were avid watchers over here of Sky News to catch up with what was going on in the UK. Now, we just cannot watch it anymore, as you say, breathtaking

To be fair to the government on PPE, the whole world has to endure shortages. However, the advice given to the NHS, careers, dentists, critical workers on using what is available cannot be excused

[DavidGrodentz]

Hi Canucklad, no problem, I agree with you on the misuse of wild animals in the food chain, it needs to stop

As does the misuse of antibiotics in traditional animal farms across the world. Maybe, the source of the next pandemic

[SimonS1]

[quote quote=1000300]Since you asked Simon 😊
And with the benefit of hindsight and the knowledge I’ll never be asked to join the SAGE group here’s a few basic processes…..[/quote]

I still don’t understand. You said that “if we had heavily invested (nationally) in this testing equipment that has a turnaround of less than an hour 2 months ago” – that type of quick turnaround testing equipment didn’t exist 2 months ago, so how could you have invested in it? At that point it was taking 36 hours and more for a diagnosis and the UK was struggling to get 100,000 tests a day going. Of course the easy solution would be to test everyone in the UK as part of one campaign – Tony Blair said on 29th March that it was necessary to test ‘virtually everyone’ but it simply wasn’t possible.

And you said “there was other options out there, apart from chucking us all in a cage for 3 months. Including managing people through our airports, train stations”. How would you have managed people through train stations with operators being restricted to 20% capacity? That is why people were asked to stay at home from 23rd March.

I believe it was clear for most of March and April that the strategy was to maintain the peak below the capacity of the NHS. I’m not saying the movement of elderly people was right, but it was part of that ‘capacity’ strategy to free up beds (you might argue that the issue of elderly patients bed blocking in the NHS should have been addressed years ago, put funnily enough people seem to hate paying more taxes).

There are many, many reasons why death rates may be different in different countries. Different levels of resistance, different age profiles, geographical differences, different genetics (for a long time no-one was aware of disproportionate death rates in BAME communities) etc etc.

In the fullness of time I am sure there will be investigations and explanations and many things that could be done better. However an objective investigation would probably achieve more than the ‘being smart after the event’ type analysis that is currently taking place – after all I don’t recall many people on here before mid March talking about all the things they now say they would have done……

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DerekVH, Cedric_Statherby

[prosborn]

I would be most grateful if the moderators could find their way to keeping such threads as this on track. It is about business travel, including flying. The madness (indeed a virus) of the mindless, the self-indulgent and the daft in an activity known as ‘cruising’ is totally irrelevant. Such a scourge should not be allowed to pollute the very decent and helpful forum which is Business Traveller.
TIA, Paul

[capetonianm]

The madness (indeed a virus) of the mindless, the self-indulgent and the daft in an activity known as ‘cruising’ is totally irrelevant. Such a scourge should not be allowed to pollute the very decent and helpful forum which is Business Traveller.

Business travellers may also be cruise passengers, even if you think cruising is a ‘scourge’ for the ‘mindless, self-indulgent, and daft’ and one which ‘pollutes’ the forum.

I happen to enjoy cruising very much,I am sure others here feel the same.

It was not I who reported your posting as ‘inappropriate’ as I prefer to respond openly when I feel someone has stepped over a line, as you have done by insulting myself and many others. In this rare instance, I agree with whoever reported your posting as inappropriate.

3 users thanked author for this post.

cwoodward, ASK1945, DerekVH

[FaroFlyer]

[postquote quote=1000815][/postquote]

I agree with Capetonianm. Many business travellers also enjoy going on cruises, so advice on cruises is welcome.

I wholly agree with you about cruising being for the “mindless, self indulgent and daft”, and would go further in my condemnation if one uses the Cambridge English dictionary definition of “Jun 10, 2020 – to go around public places looking for someone to have sex with: He spends the weekends cruising the bars.” The OED is similar.

It was not me that reported your post, but your comment was inappropriate if you were referring to going on a cruise ship.

[capetonianm]

Thanks FaroFlyer for that, since it had not even occurred to me that ‘prosborn’ was referring to ‘cruising’ in the sense you mentioned. Perhaps I have led a sheltered life away from popular culture and modern terminology.

I hope it was clear that I meant ‘holidaying or travelling on cruise ships’!

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ASK1945, FaroFlyer

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