[christopheL]

I am sure many airlines representatives are having a look at the forum. It would be interesting to have their comment about this issue and their policy regarding these broker’s tickets. Do they considere denying boarding the proper way to solve the issue ?

[SimonS1]

We know the answer Christophe.

See post from Charles-P – 21/11/2014 10:30 GMT

You have to ask a specific question not some vague “are they on some sort of black list” type approach.

If not convinced then have a read of this thread.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/information-desk/1452582-mileage-brokers-they-legit.html

[christopheL]

SimonS1, I’m afraid the answer I know is not the one you have in mind.
I’m afraid the real answer is : we are aware about this kind of business but we don’t want to sue any of this brokers as it would cost money and it would give them a free visibility. It is easier to deny boarding to a few of their clients.
My point is not about people who know everything about this business (it is their choice to take the Risk or not to take it). It’s about people who are not aware and will never be aware because airlines don’t do anything publicly against this brokers.

[SimonS1]

It’s not the airline’s job to sue SkyLux. The transaction was between the passenger and SkyLux. No different to buying a regular ticket – if the TA doesn’t pay the airline there is no valid booking. The passenger is denied boarding and it’s up to them to sort out.

In this case the T&Cs have been broken – that isn’t a matter for the airline to sort out. It may well be that the passenger is unaware of the SkyLux model but it is still buyer beware regardless.

If you go to a broker to buy car insurance and the premium is not paid to the insurer then you have no valid insurance. If you have an accident it’s your risk, the insurer does not get involved in suing people.

However if you have any doubts then why not just pick up the phone to any if the major airlines and ask the obvious question “are tickets bought from a loyalty mileage broker valid on your airline”. I think we can all predict the answer which is why no serious business traveller on here or FlyerTalk will touch them with a barge pole.

[canucklad]

Firstly, apologies Simon for my greyish analogies. IMO the reason why the airlines won’t sue a company like Skylux is because they tacitly support them.
WHY…..For the reason I was alluding to with my Rhino analogy. The airlines have inflated their assets by valuing their reward programmes. And I’ve asked this question before. How can you measure a give away as as a credit , but the airlines have done exactly this. And brokers like Skylux actively trading points counter my argument. I said a few pages back that Skylux to me is the modern version of the old bucket shops. The airlines also back in the day used to warn about buying tickets from bucket shops yet hypocritically also sneakily supplied those purveyors of ultra cheap tickets to fill their planes.
Skylux is the airlines answer to TK Max !

[canucklad]

Firstly, apologies Simon for my greyish analogies. IMO the reason why the airlines won’t sue a company like Skylux is because they tacitly support them.
WHY…..For the reason I was alluding to with my Rhino analogy. The airlines have inflated their assets by valuing their reward programmes. And I’ve asked this question before. How can you measure a give away as as a credit , but the airlines have done exactly this. And brokers like Skylux actively trading points counter my argument. I said a few pages back that Skylux to me is the modern version of the old bucket shops. The airlines also back in the day used to warn about buying tickets from bucket shops yet hypocritically also sneakily supplied those purveyors of ultra cheap tickets to fill their planes.
Skylux is the airlines answer to TK Max !

[LuganoPirate]

I had to call Swiss for another matter and then posed the question to them. I was put on hold and then told if I bought such a ticket they would deny me travel. However he did add, provided they knew I had bought it from one of the mileage brokers.

I think this can be summed up add follows:
It is not illegal. No criminal offence has been made by either seller, purchaser or broker.

It is against the T&C’s of the airlines, and in signing up to a given programme you accept these terms.

Would the terms stand up in a court of law? I don’t know. I suppose it could be argued you’ve paid for the miles by buying a ticket so you should be free to do what you want with them?

If you buy one of these tickets you’ll likely get away with it and have no problems as it is very hard for the airline to find out. It’s all done automatically via the seller’s own mileage account and in ticking the box “it’s for a friend or relative” how would they find out?

Would I buy one – No I wouldn’t!

[MartynSinclair]

@canucklad – the airmile brokers do not benefit the airline as the money exchanged for sale and purchase of airmiles is kept by the broker. All they are doing is matching a buyer/seller of airmiles and trading the “commodity” as well as trying to find standard reward availability. I do not beleive they have any commercial deals with airlines to free airmile seats.

To test this, ask for a reservation on BA longhaul, through a broker, in F!

@LP – “would this stand up in a court of Law?” – the last place I would want to end up after being denied boarding, is a court of Law, facing a airline’s legal team, trying to get my money back, after having purchased a questionable ticket.

Remember, I have dealt with one such travel agent in the UK and it got very nasty – ended up as a police matter and my family was physically threatened!!

[christopheL]

The seller of miles agreed the T&C when he signed up to the airline program. This is why he’s account will be closed and he will loose his remaining miles.

The traveller never signed up the T&C. He probably even doesn’t know that he bought a reward ticket as he bought it not using miles.

Can you imagine a legal system which may legitimate the cancelation of the booking at the time of checking i.e. the punishment of the only one who has been acting in good faith ? I can’t.

[canucklad]

I agree with you Martyn, my point being that by doing so, Skylux is creating profit by trading in a free commodity. This ironically creates an inflated value that allows the airlines to justify IMO wrongly , an asset from a give away reward where unused miles should actually be seen as red ,on their accounts. Remember that Skylux still has to redeem from the airline the points.
As most of us agree, it’s all very murky.

[MrMichael]

ChristopheL, ignorance of the law is no defence, and I would further suggest ignorance of T&C’s is also no defence provided they are readily available. Skylux in their T&C’s say you have to abide by the applicable T&C’s of the airline your booked on, so if you are booked on an airline that specifically bans the reselling of miles then Skylux is selling you a product that you cannot use. That in my view is simple….fraud. “

“Airline tickets are subject to the published conditions of carriage and rules, including but not limited to, cancellation policies of the applicable airline. The contract of carriage in use by the applicable airline, when issued, shall be between the applicable airline and the passenger. Airlines retain the right to adjust flight times and schedules at any time – schedule changes can result in an itinerary that falls outside of contractual agreements. Airlines may also in their discretion change or cancel flights or itineraries. SkyLux Travel is not responsible for schedule changes.

[SimonS1]

@canucklad – I can’t see the relevance of that really. Bucket shops sold tickets and generated an income stream/profits for the airlines from seats that would otherwise have been unsold.

In this case a third party (the ticket broker) is profiting and there is no benefit to the airline at all.

If the airlines wanted a way to get their inventory of miles off the books they would have come up with a process to do that rather than relying on some shady outfit operating unofficially and in a way that actually undermines the airlines credibility, since reward tickets are limited and those trying to book in accordance with the T&Cs lose out.

[SimonS1]

@Christophe – I suppose the fact that SkyLux are selling tickets at a significantly lower price than any other agent in the market (including the biggest TAs) can offer wouldn’t in any way seem odd to you?

That their itineraries appear to offer lengthy stopovers during trips when more convenient routings are available?

And don’t you find it strange that no experienced travellers, people who travel week in week out, would touch SkyLux? Surely if they were genuine then companies would jump at the chance to save some money on their travel budgets?

Too good to be true is the phrase that comes to mind.

Ignorance is no defence in law. No different to me buying a car in good faith and finding that it turns out to be stolen – ultimately it’s buyer beware.

Unfortunately your case here would be against the agent/broker and possibly the original ‘owner’ of the miles, however the airline would argue you did not get the miles legitimately and they have no responsibility. Invalid ticket, travel denied and cheerio.

[canucklad]

As with Martyn’s point I’m going to agree with you as well Simon. But fundamentally bums on seats matter. I’ll throw this point into the discussion .At some time of my choosing I could transfers my zillions of IHG points into my BAEC account. Thus denying BA future revenue But they happily sanction that transaction.

[christopheL]

MrMichael
Do the T&C state that an award ticket issued against the T&C will be canceled ? I don’t think so.

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