[Bath_VIP]

FDOS, there are a number of points in your post that I agree with but you have not commented on the central point which concerns me. This is “why did the Ryanair cabin crew not move the abuser and moved the victim instead (or allow her to be moved)?” You state “there was not much else the cabin crew could have done”. I disagree, they could have insisted that he move seats and if he didn’t want to, then tell him to get off the plane. I appreciate that the boundary of aviation law may be vague as to the responsibility of the captain but if I was the captain of that plane, I would be saying to myself “what happen’s on my plane is my responsibility and that man is either going to move or get off”. A bad captain will duck that call and cite the letter of the law instead.

According to this report by the Telegraph, Ryanair stated at the end that as it is now a police matter, they can’t comment. That is exactly what a bad company that wants to duck its responsibility will do. The abuse by the man is a police matter, the question of why they made the victim move is an operational matter that Ryanair should absolutely be commenting on now.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/21/ryanair-fire-failing-take-action-against-passenger-launched/

Jeremy Vine’s comment in that article is spot on, Ryanair needs to explain this why they allowed this “Rosa Parks” moment to occur.

[FDOS_UK]

why did the Ryanair cabin crew not move the abuser and moved the victim instead (or allow her to be moved

I have no idea.

I disagree, they could have insisted that he move seats and if he didn’t want to, then tell him to get off the plane

It is by no means clear to me that they had the authority to do this.

if I was the captain of that plane, I would be saying to myself “what happen’s on my plane is my responsibility and that man is either going to move or get off

I don’t think airline commanders think quite like that, tbh.

A bad captain will duck that call and cite the letter of the law instead.

An aircraft commander needs to work to the letter of the law, it’s a very responsible job; personal whims should not form part of the decision making process.

[LuganoPirate]

We don’t know the whole story, but maybe it was easier to move the two ladies rather than have him bluster on about having paid for his seat etc. Terrible behaviour though and I also think he should have been put off the plane.

1 user thanked author for this post.

PeterCoultas

[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=899246]We don’t know the whole story, but maybe it was easier to move the two ladies rather than have him bluster on about having paid for his seat etc. Terrible behaviour though and I also think he should have been put off the plane.[/quote]

Absolutely terrible behaviour and possibly pragmatic crew action – I hope they ban the guy for a long time.

[Bath_VIP]

I’ve just priced up my itinerary and the dilemma has got larger for me!

Both EI & FR fly between Bristol & Dublin with similar departure times as well so I have a straight choice. Return fares per person are:

Ryanair – £79.34 which includes baggage and seat selection
Aer Lingus – £228.98 which does not include baggage and seat selection

So my principles will cost me £149.64. Hmmm …

I suppose this clarifies the question in a way. Should I boycott Ryanair because I know that Aer Lingus would have handled the situation differently?

[capetonianm]

I have always boycotted Ryanair. I don’t know enough about all sides of this incident to comment on whether it would give me cause to boycott them, but it’s irrelevant. That said, the male pax behaviour was out of order and I hope he is dealt with appropriately.

[FDOS_UK]

I suppose this clarifies the question in a way. Should I boycott Ryanair because I know that Aer Lingus would have handled the situation differently?

How do you know this, though? I have seen situations handled badly on many airlines.

I’d book Ryanair. Send O’Leary a message saying how disappointed you were in the way they managed the situation. FR are not immune to public opinion.

[Swissdiver]

It is crazy to see the social impact of this. I hope this bastard feels his bad behaviour everywhere he goes… That said, I don’t see any other airline behaving differently. FAs saw an altercation and separated the passengers. What else could have been done? Is there any ground to expel the guy? I don’t think so.

[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=899449]Is there any ground to expel the guy? I don’t think so.[/quote]

The aircraft commander could designate the guy as a risk to the safety of the flight and that would be solid grounds for offloading.

However, that would mean involving the local police (due to the Tokyo convention) and there could be consequences arising – the flight could miss its slot, resulting in delays to other people.

For all the commander knows, there may be a passenger travelling to see a terminally ill sibling or parent whose life expectancy is measured in hours – does he really wish to take this decision, if his cabin crew are saying they’ve managed the incident and are confident it will not reoccur.

This is a tricky area, balancing interests, IMO.

[canucklad]

Here’s compromise solution Bath-VIP

Why not book with Ryanair, and send a personal letter to M o’L as per FDOS’s suggestion, and then to ease your conscience donate a bit of your savings to a charity that deals with bullying /racism.
I’m with others here, I’m not sure that Aer Lingus or any other airline would have managed it better.
However, from the little I know about the incident, I’d suggest part of the problem is the seeming lack of empowerment Ryanair cabin staff seem to have.
I’d guess this is down to a micro-management almost bullying culture to reach on-board sales and on-time targets. Add into the mix it’s a band of young ,life inexperienced employees’ being paid at the lowest end of legal wages, that are looking after us then you can see how these incidents are either ignored or badly managed.

We constantly talk about airlines racing to the bottom , adding on ancillary fee’s and at the same time reducing service levels, but rarely do we focus on the most important element in this interaction with the airlines.
And that’s how they treat their staff. That’s where we will pay the ultimate price….unfortunately !!

[MartynSinclair]

Quite a few captains on LBC yesterday suggesting they would 100% have thrown the pax off the flight and they all considered it their 100% responsibility and authority to deal in such a way. One pilot did comment that it was not clear whether the flight attendant spoke English as his first language.

Ryan have thrown passengers off flights before for far far less

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-45219493

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/it-was-a-total-overreaction-irish-passenger-removed-from-ryanair-flight-to-ibiza-shares-their-story-37023121.html

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4030606/ryanair-crew-refuse-oxygen-to-disabled-man-80-during-panic-attack-as-he-didnt-pay-50-add-on-fee-before-flight/

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Bath_VIP

[Bath_VIP]

It’s interesting hearing these comments. My wife and I are also discussing this on facebook which has raised some similar points.

By the way, I would love to hear from cabin crew and pilots on this forum about what they perceive as their powers to handle such incidents especially given what FDOS has said.

I think this situation falls between two stools. I think there is a cultural issue with Ryanair that makes them more likely to mishandle such incidents but there is no guarantee that other airlines such as Aer Lingus would handle the situation better. Ryanair have also failed to handle the fallout properly which is again a pointer to cultural issues so you can make a case that Ryanair should be targeted with a campaign.

However, is a boycott the most effective campaign? After all is their customer base full of people like myself who can spare £300 to virtue signal? I suspect not which in itself is a pointer that the option to boycott is largely the privilege of the well off and also suggests that a boycott would be ineffective. Frankly these days, I am only interested in whether an action is effective and the question of whether it salves one’s conscience is of no interest to me.

I like the suggestion of supporting a campaign that targets Ryanair on this but I am not impressed with most of the organisations in this field. Saying that I recall some years ago, Ryanair refused to board a large party of blind people saying that it was too many to handle in an emergency. I think it was the Blind charity of Ireland that worked with Ryanair to modify their policy so that any disabled person accompanied by an able bodied person would not be counted in the totals that required assistance in an emergency. So maybe there might be someone or something out there that could be supported on this to achieve a similar change.

Personally, if I had been cabin crew, I would have found two strapping black lads on this flight and told this racist “you can either sit between those lads or you can get off!”

[FDOS_UK]

Personally, if I had been cabin crew, I would have found two strapping black lads on this flight and told this racist “you can either sit between those lads or you can get off!”

On what lawful basis? Therein lies the problem, you would probably end up in court, yourself.

Quite a few captains on LBC yesterday suggesting they would 100% have thrown the pax off the flight and they all considered it their 100% responsibility and authority to deal in such a way

That’s all well and good in principle, but the commander on the day would be dealing with a ‘he said, she said story’, retold by a third party (the cabin crew member) and there be some dragons there, for the unwary.

I’ve never been airline pilot or faced this problem, but having spent a fair time working in airlines (as a consultant) I can see why a commander may have preferred to accept the view that it was safe/expedient to operate the flight.

[MartynSinclair]

[quote quote=899528]That’s all well and good in principle, but the commander on the day would be dealing with a ‘he said, she said story’, retold by a third party (the cabin crew member) and there be some dragons there, for the unwary.[/quote]

That was also said by one of the pilots. If the cabin crew had heard the exchange and reported to the Captain, then it is not a case of he said you said. However, if it was reported by a passenger to cabin crew, then as one of the pilots explained, there is the problem. Hence why it was suggested the cabin crew member in earshot, may not have had English as his first language.

Quite honestly though, there were enough passenger recording the incident for their to have been no doubt about what happened…

[canucklad]

It would be good to hear from a legal expert, trouble is a legal expert in what?

Spanish Law
Irish Law
UK law

Or International Aviation Law?

Then decide whether or not it’s criminal or civil ?.

If the incident had happened at Edinburgh (rather than Barcelona) , before the plane started to taxi, then a criminal offence has occurred and Mr Nasty would have been subject to the long arm of the law.

Police Scotland definition…..
Hate Crimes can take a number of forms, including, but not limited to:…
1. verbal abuse or insults including name-calling
2. intimidating or threatening behaviour including obscene calls or gestures

And as far as I know , if ca commanders become aware of criminal activity on board they must take action. However , Ryanair commanders are surely not expected to be up with the legal idiosyncrasies of each country they might visit in a day. And there’s the rub !!

So, even if the incident did occur prior to pushback at Edinburgh, would the “commander” know that a serious criminal offence had taken place under Scottish Law……not likely ?

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