[JordanD]

It’s an interesting one.

I don’t book CE as a rule of thumb (not allowed for work when intra-Europe, normally beyond my price point for personal), however proactive upgrade opportunities (i.e. the airport/OLCI offers) or when connecting for longhaul are CE journies.

One of which was on Sunday, when I flew LHR-HEL to connect onto HEL-KIX on AY. The LHR-HEL flight included a number of J passengers connecting to AY’s services to Japan/China/S Korea, and left LHR at 1135, arriving HEL 1630. Clearly a flight that crosses the lunch time band.

And the offering? Extended Brunch. Now, I’m a BA fan, and whilst the food was passable (albeit actually had flavour and very edible), it wasn’t right for the meal service required: a full lunch offering.

Thing is, would I want to schlep up to HEL in Y to connect there onto a business flight? Probably, not. So CE does have a purpose, but the food offering needs to improve too – and be a right fit.

[Cedric_Statherby]

A proper business class for intra-Europe flights should have
– flexible tickets
– better seating (more legroom, 2×2 formation)
– reserved luggage racks which Y class passengers cannot use
– adequate food

Most of the other benefits of business class (lounge access, priority boarding, more FF points) are nice-to-haves but not I think as important.

The problem with CE is that it fails to satisfy completely on 3 of these four. The seating is not really very special, or rather not different enough from that in Y, the food is extremely hit-and-miss and the overhead luggage bins are not protected. These failings (especially the last 2) are not that difficult to put right, and if BA do persevere with CE, I hope they will try a lot harder to meet legitimate expectations on them.

Incidentally, food on BA European flights is a problem all round, not just in CE. One neither gets the food one used to from a full service airline, nor the opportunity to buy food as one does from a low cost one. The result is that on a recent 1 hr 50 minute flight on BA over lunchtime (11.50-13.40) I was offered a drink and a bag of crisps, That is not adequate and certainly not lunch!

If BA can’t or won’t GIVE Y travellers better food, they should at least be prepared to SELL it to them.

[canucklad]

I’ve mentioned on previous threads that I find BA’s decision making process on their whole domestic/European operation perplexing. I suppose I could add in their total global operation.

Reading all the various BA comments on the full forum, not just this thread I can tell you that my impression of BA is that there is a schizophrenic disconnect with what BA believe they want to offer and what IAG demand of the bottom line.

In my opinion I believe BA desperately wants to be seen as a quality high end carrier with a reputation that compares favourably with their direct peer group of competitors.

Sadly the whole “ To fly to serve” philosophy seems to be countered by a requirement of their IAG accountants to drift into different customer demographics with the result that there is no clear differential between BA and LH or EZ .

As I’ve said elsewhere on the forum, if actions speak larger than words, the recent decisions regarding CE would suggest to me that IAG have instructed BA to cut costs whilst at the same time maintaining market share for as long as possible until a point is reached that BA management and IAG introduce a Vueling operation to fully replace the short haul operation.

[AMcWhirter]

On the subject of CE catering, we published a recent Ask Alex where a passenger was offered a last-minute, paid-for, upgrade for her Vienna-London flight.

But just before boarding the aircraft, she was advised of a lack of availability of CE catering.

The Sydney-based reader was told she could either get a refund and travel back to London in economy class. Or else she could sit with her husband, in CE, and make do with economy class food (but with no refund for the class difference).

http://www.businesstraveller.com/ask-alex/2014/why-does-ba-offer-upgrades-when-it-cana-t-provi

[AnthonyDunn]

@ Cedric_Statherby – 22/05/2014 09:21 GMT

In contrast Cedric, I would prefer the straightforward option of either a proper full service CE offering with all of the attributes you propose or a cheapo Y offering with just a drink (if that) and leaving me to bring my own food. Frankly, the pathetic food offering on BA EuroTraveller is so awful that I wish they would not bother at all. I dare say that the same applies across other carriers’ Y offerings. BTW, I recall previous experiences (some time ago) on LH short-haul with a pile of breakfast bags at the gate that Y passengers picked up on boarding. This had the virtue that it saved C/C time and all they needed to do was collect the wrappings once consumed. Either do it properly, or just don’t bother at all and save the time and money.

[AMcWhirter]

Apologies … it was Budapest-London. I guess the flight was heavily booked now that there is no full service airline plying directly between Budapest and London.

[AMcWhirter]

Hello Anthony

Re: the “breakfast bags.”

LH was a late adopter of business class within Europe. Air France, BA and SAS introduced business class from 1980 onwards while I remember Lufthansa (along with the then Swissair) still had first class (but no business class) until the early 1990s.

You may be referring to what Lufthansa called the “gate buffet” of the ’90s which featured on German domestic routes. The idea was that passengers could choose their own simple snacks in the gate lounge for consumption onboard.

The concept was eventually withdrawn. It seemed that some passengers were taking more than their fair share of food !

[Travellator]

Return Journey from my first post.

Flight departing 13.00 – 2 hour flight – lunch – single offering – salad – no option.

BA NOT doing what it says on the tin.

[coolflyer]

This may be a point previously discussed by I can’t seem to understand why BA don’t introduce a true business class product in CE, this would differentiate them from other European flag carriers.

For me the problem with the current CE offering is that it’s not substantially different to economy, and certainly no different to the business class offering of say KLM or Lufthansa. What would be the possibility of BA introducing 2×2 seating like AA? I understand the current middle seat empty option allows for flexibility but why not have just 8 seats in CE similar to Virgin America.

I’m sure more people would be prepared to pay the premium price for a truly premium product, with full hot catering on every service. More BA Euro Traveller customers would be willing to pay to upgrade to CE and customers who previously use KLM or Lufthansa may now choose CE instead.

Generally I don’t think BA have done enough to differentiate their short haul offering from the low cost carriers – why not introduce seatback TVs, wifi etc.. in line with the US carriers which would put clear blue water between BA and say Ryanair.

Aside from a free drink and snack in Euro Traveller which in real terms is probably worth £5 (absolute max!) there really is no difference between BA and a LCCs (admittedly excluding lounge access for tier members and the ability to earn avios).

[handsomestpeter]

Swissair and Lufthansa had 3 classes on their European flights throughout the 80’s–.First class was 2 or 3 rows of 2×2 seating with a fixed cabin divider,and then Business was rather like it is today with a movable cabin divider.I think this should be adopted by BA as it would satisfy FJ passengers transferring to longhaul in London——and i would certainly pay for ‘F’ on these flights.

[AMcWhirter]

Hello coolflyer

The points raised about a fixed cabin were covered in my blog of last year:

http://www.businesstraveller.com/discussion/topic/Alex-on…-the-future-for-business-class-within-Europe

Two airlines, KLM and Swissair, did launch proper wide seating within Europe in the ’90s and I wrote about it extensively for BT.

But unfortunately the concept failed because of a lack of flexibility. However today the big airlines have simpler networks so there is, I believe, a better chance of success. There was some talk last year that Lufthansa was looking at bringing in a fixed cabin but, so far, nothing more has been heard.

Hello handsomestpeter

As I mentioned in a previous posting, both Swissair and Lufthansa were the last major carriers to retain first class within Europe. Their business classes replaced first class when they switched to being two-class carriers.

[rferguson]

Coolflyer you are right when you say about flexibility being the key.

AFAIK in the US ‘domestic First’ has totally different workings on most routes. I believe almost NO-ONE pays for ‘First Class’ although their frequent flyer programs are very generous with upgrade vouchers (for some top tier FF almost unlimited) and the rest are transferring from long haul flights. I’m sure there are exceptions – long east to west coast routes would require a ‘true’ premium product and have those prepared to pay for it.

You give the example of Virgin America offering 8 ‘true’ F seats. Why wouldn’t BA follow? The cold, hard reality is because if it wants to sell 8 CE seats it can do so. If it can sell 30 it can also do so on the same plane. Cheating? Maybe. But while ALL the other european competitors are offering more or less the same deal why would any of them cut their nose off despite their face?

If BA – or Lufthansa or AF – were to launch a ‘true’ First Class seat how much would people be prepared to pay for it? Those transferring from longhaul flights wouldn’t pay any more. The bosses of those executives travelling on short haul flights generally won’t stump up for Club now let alone a higher priced one.

It will always be a tipping point for the airline accountants – shorthaul Business class travellers want more, but how much are they prepared to pay for it? What will be the loss or gain to us in terms of lost capacity and revenue? And it seems that within europe they’ve all come to the same conclusion.

[AnthonyDunn]

@ rferguson – 22/05/2014 14:06 GMT

…which is why Easyjet, in their most recent results reporting to the London Stock Exchange, made such play of the significant number of additional business passengers that they are now carrying across Europe.

What do business pax want? Multiple flight options, reliable timings and flexible tickets with the chance to change to an earlier/later flight if necessary but at a reasonable price. This is, in real terms, very substantially less than the First and Business class fares that were charged in the heyday of the 1990s. And before the LCC business model completely disrupted the established order in short/medium-haul travel. Somehow, I just don’t see the old, “fixed” configuration 2+2 ever making a come-back on intra-European sectors.

[canucklad]

You’re point is valid up to a point AD.

Easyjet is a point to point carrier, BA is not, which means that it’s easier for Easyjet to place its offer in its unique marketplace. It’s also why it’s starting to cream off business passengers from its legacy competitors. IT has a CLEAR marketing proposition unlike BA’s current mishmash of inconsistency.

Now back to BA’s world, I don’t agree with Ian’s assertion that there should be a 3 class offering in CE, I do agree that there should be a separate proper business cabin that offers a proper premium offering. And if BA put a bit more thought into how they measure their accounting, possibly being a bit more radical and using a different model than the IMO the tried and failed airline model that their trying to shape and make work profitably for them.

By this I mean, how they work out the “tipping point” between the different categories of passenger. There has got to be an opportunity to reassess how a human being on an aircraft suddenly becomes a more expensive proposition to manage because they sit at the front and they munch down on a meal that costs less than a £1 to produce. So I wonder if BA’s accountants can’t refine their profit margins to reflect the true cost of operating a real business class. Add to this the technology now available to transform cabins relatively quickly.

As I’ve mentioned before if Jet2 can transform a passenger aircraft to a cargo aircraft so quickly that they do it on a daily basis, it surely can’t be out of realms of possibility to flex the “ curtain “ either !

I wish BA all the best, but at the moment as I’ve also said before their management team are not learning from the mistakes of their failed takeover BD.

[AnthonyDunn]

@ canucklad – 22/05/2014 16:08 GMT

If you see my earlier earlier post from today, I think you will conclude that we are both probably heading towards pretty much the same conclusion.

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