[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=816652]I don’t think anyone or indeed the purpose of the original post, is talking about boycotting Ryanair. Indeed it is also not about the merits or otherwise of paying for reserved seating.

It is highlighting the apparent differences between their old seating policy versus the current one that many have experienced in recent weeks / months, re: allocating of seats for those that have chosen not to pay to reserve them.

In years gone by Ryanair, Easyjet etc would for those choosing not to pay to reserve seats, more often than not allocate people on the same booking ref, seats together / next to each other.

Easyjet state that they still do this.
Ryanair on the other hand are actively not doing this.

I would venture, regardless of the verbiage Ryanair or their apologists choose to use, their policy (or the way they choose to monetize ancillary income) has changed / is noticeably different than before.

[/quote]

Right, let’s be clear …… are you saying that Ryanair lied to Business Traveller?

Ryanair forced to clarify seat allocation policy

That would be a highly defamatory statement and would leave you and BT open to litigation. The last poster who reported contact from Ryanair in response to comments on a thread here reported a highly unpleasant conversation.

The title of the thread is ‘Ryanair seating policy’. The company has said there is no change – do you understand the difference between a policy and implementing/enforcing a policy?

Lots of companies have policies that are observed more in the non-enforcement and it may be that Ryanair has started to implement/enforce the policy more vigorously. It will either work for them and will stay or it won’t and it will be withdrawn. But regardless of what was done in the past, if the policy is constant it’s more a case of people losing benefits they weren’t entitled to.

With regard to taking action, rather then whinging on a bulletin board (which will have no effect with FR) complaining to the airline and boycotting them is more likely to be effective.

Many people on BT will remember the row when BA decided to leave the old convertible seats on the short haul fleet as 3×3 (with the middle free) in CE, not adjust them to 2×3, with more width. That policy lasted for a very short period, due to the extremely negative response.

[SwissExPat]

2 days ago, BBC watchdog program did an ‘Expose’ on Ryanair Seating.

They made 4 bookings for 4 peeople (on the same booking) across 4 various days on different routes without paying for seat selection. The seat plans were caputured when online checkin opened and also the actual seating configuration/occupancy for each of the flights on the fligh day was recorded by the travelling researchers.

All 16 PAX were assigned middle seats in different rows of the plane.

BBC fed this data to a Statistical expert who calculated that the probablilty of this seat allocation happening (if it were random as claimed) was 1 in 14.5 million.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/ryanair-seat-selection-cost-airlines-easyjet-ba/

[FDOS_UK]

Interesting post, Swiss.

I imagine that the definition of ‘random’ is significant to the debate.

If the algorithm doing the allocation is completely random, then I’d agree that the probability of 16 middle seats is an outlier.

But I doubt that is the case, it wouldn’t make commercial sense to a company that loves to generate anciliary income. What is more likely is a ‘weighted, random, allocation’.

In other words, the algorithm will have a higher weighting to allocate middle seats, so the more valued window/aisle seats are kept available for people willing to pay – if you look at the words used, FR said

“Some random seat passengers are confused by the appearance of empty seats beside them when they check-in up to four days prior to departure,” continued the statement. “The reason they can’t have these window or aisle seats is that these are more likely to be selected by reserved seat passengers many of whom only check-in 24 hours prior to departure. Since our current load factor is 95 per cent, we have to keep these window and aisle seats free to facilitate those customers who are willing to pay (from €2) for them”.

So I reckon Ryanair have got a new weighted algorithm that is more effective in generating income than before, but it is still ‘random’ in the sense that it will allocate middle seats before aisle/windows and will stick pax all over the place.

My daughter just checked in for a Ryanair flight this morning, leaving this evening. We had a look at the available seats for purchase out of interest and realised that there were only windows and aisle seats free, so she chose ‘random’ and got 10A, which she is very pleased about.

For, for the solo traveller who doesn’t wish to pay, it seems checking in late may be the way to go. For couples/families or people who wish to have some certainty, if you wish to sit together, then paying is the best strategy.

[AlanOrton1]

Good info SwissExPat – appears the way they are now doing things has been observed / noticed by many.

“The reason they can’t have these window or aisle seats is that these are more likely to be selected by reserved seat passengers many of whom only check-in 24 hours prior to departure…”

I find this an odd statement, as those who pay to reserve their seats are able to select their seats at the time they make their booking. Which I suspect almost all do.
To suggest that a good number of those who have booked and paid for their flights & reserved seats, then don’t choose the reserved seats at the time they’ve made the booking (and leave it all until sub 24 hrs to departure) seems unlikely, to say the least.

[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=816691]Good info SwissExPat – appears the way they are now doing things has been observed / noticed by many.

“The reason they can’t have these window or aisle seats is that these are more likely to be selected by reserved seat passengers many of whom only check-in 24 hours prior to departure…”

I find this an odd statement, as those who pay to reserve their seats are able to select their seats at the time they make their booking. Which I suspect almost all do.
To suggest that a good number of those who have booked and paid for their flights & reserved seats, then don’t choose the reserved seats at the time they’ve made the booking (and leave it all until sub 24 hrs to departure) seems unlikely, to say the least.

[/quote]

Oh goodness, please read it again, the meaning is clear. They are saying explicitly they are weighting the allocation to middle seats in the hope that people will buy the more attractive seats when they check in, up to -24 hours. ‘Reserved seat passengers’ does not imply they reserved the seats in advance, just that they are purchasers of reserved seats (at any time, early or late).

In other words, there is more incentive to buy a nice seat when checking in, than a poor one, until one gets to the stage when all seats left are okay, like my daughter’s experience today and the buying proposition is inverted.

[FDOS_UK]

By the way, before anyone comes along and makes themselves look like an utter twit by complaining that the Ryanair allocation is not truly random, please consider the words of John von Neumann, perhaps the greatest mathematician who ever lived

Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random digits is, of course, in a state of sin

Given that an aircraft seat allocation system must only allocate seats that are unallocated at the time of choosing, it is deterministic in nature and thus lacks the entropy necessary to be random. If this was not the case, the system might allocate seat 3A to two people, 20F to five and leave other seats empty. This clearly cannot work, so the seat allocation must be made by using rules and constraints and cannot be truly random.

[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=816662]Is it not just a case of:

** one airline gives a free seat choice at check in

whilst the other

**allocates a seat of the airlines choice at check in

As long as the passengers know the rules in advance, I don’t see an issue….

A bit like plastic bags at the supermarket. If you need/require/want one – you need to pay …

[/quote]

Martyn, I missed your post before, but agree completely.

And if one airline doesn’t allow seat choice on a fare (e.g. BA HBO), if the passengers make their feelings known strongly enough, maybe the seat allocation choice will be restored.

[AlanOrton1]

FDOS – I view reserved seat pax in one way, and you another. Fair enough.

You see their current policy as nothing more than a modification to their algorithms.
My view is different to this, as are the views of a great many others, supported by the links kindly provided by Tom & SwissExPat.

Good, fair and robust discussion with alternative views, which is the hallmark of this Forum.

It is water off a ducks back to me, but making petty remarks about those that post, whose narrative you disagree with, is only likely to make those that post infrequently post less, or those that read the forum, but haven’t yet commented, less likely to do so.

[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=816702]FDOS – I view reserved seat pax in one way, and you another. Fair enough.

You see their current policy as nothing more than a modification to their algorithms.
My view is different to this, as are the views of a great many others, supported by the links kindly provided by Tom & SwissExPat.

Good, fair and robust discussion with alternative views, which is the hallmark of this Forum.

It is water off a ducks back to me, but making petty remarks about those that post, whose narrative you disagree with, is only likely to make those that post infrequently post less, or those that read the forum, but haven’t yet commented, less likely to do so.

[/quote]

Alan, you made a petty remark earlier in the thread about me ‘berating’ people for thread drift, when I was polite in asking them to stick to the topic and even opened up a new thread to accomodate their views. So, pot/kettle/black.

My ‘goodness’ remark was made because your anti Ryanair bias on this thread caused you to read their statement and reach an erroneous view, probably based on confirmation bias – sorry, but that isn’t petty, it is fair comment and you should be honest enough to recognise that.

You are also insisting that they have made a policy change, when they say they have not. You can be as dismissive as you wish, but the fact is that I have worked in more than one airline and do have some insights into how they use algorithms in software to help their ops – in fact, I led a global project to select the supplier of an algorithm driven package to generate income by better use of resources and led a cross disciplinary team to reference site visits in the Europe and the Americas, as well as hosting supplier pitches and system demonstrations – a key point was to enable the delivery of policies that were agreed but where systems lacked the functionality to make them happen.

So I know something about this area – what’s your experience in algorithm driven airline systems?

Final point, I am not a fan of Ryanair as a passenger, they are low on my list of carriers, but sometimes are the only choice on the route I need. This year, I have flown two sectors with them, compared to four on Qantas and well over 30 on BA. When I fly FR, I pay for everything I need and accept they are out to maximise their share of my wallet – I expect no favours of any kind from this company and they never fail to meet that expectation.

On the other hand, from a technical strategy perspective, the company fascinates me with it’s ability to create a clear strategy and execute it successfully – when I point out that they can improve their business (from their perspective) by implementing new tools, it’s not arguing the semantics of policy v policy implementation, it’s recognising that every strategy has a kernel consisting of an understanding of the problems or opportunities, a policy to address them and execution to make it happen.

Some companies never even truly understand the problem/opportunity, some create good policies, but lack the wherewithall or will to make it happen and some can drive things through.

Ryanair, as a business, are good at all three and I respect them for that.

PS: The BBC conclusion that the Ryanair seat allocation system was not random, could easily have been reached without the theatre of buying 16 tickets – it is a deterministic system and cannot, by that definition, operate randomly in the sense that Dr Rogers was calculating.

[Henryp1]

[quote quote=816702]FDOS – I view reserved seat pax in one way, and you another. Fair enough.

You see their current policy as nothing more than a modification to their algorithms.
My view is different to this, as are the views of a great many others, supported by the links kindly provided by Tom & SwissExPat.

Good, fair and robust discussion with alternative views, which is the hallmark of this Forum.

It is water off a ducks back to me, but making petty remarks about those that post, whose narrative you disagree with, is only likely to make those that post infrequently post less, or those that read the forum, but haven’t yet commented, less likely to do so.

[/quote]

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