[TimFitzgeraldTC]

Excellent post AnthonyDunn. Didn’t have time to write such an extensive answer. But as a reader of Roger Ford’s excellent “Informed Sources” for over 20 years in Modern Railways you have summed up the situation very well. And as others have said – if only BR had the levels of funding we have now we can have a massively better, more robust railway.

[NTarrant]

The idea that profits from a nationalised railway would be reinvested in the system is sadly nothing but a pipe dream. The profits would be used to fund something else whilst economies made or improvements shelved. In BR days that is why there was a lack of investment in infrastructure with the taking out of passing loops to save money repairing or maintaining them.

Charles-P I used B Rail just over a week ago between Brussels Midi and Brugge, the website told me the fare was €11.00 but in fact it was €28 something. At Midi there were no timetables displayed, no information and only one of the four information windows were open and a large queue. At Brugge again lack of information.

The privatised UK railway may not be perfect by any means, but at least you can get correct information with ease at main stations of similar size.

[AnthonyDunn]

@ TimFitzgeraldTC – 29/09/2015 11:21 BST

I just felt a whole lot better once I had got it all off my chest! §:-)

And thanks everyone for typically considered responses. BT has become/returned to being a delightfully thought provoking forum with some (I count myself out…) extremely well informed and articulate contributors who rub along with each other.

[canucklad]

Hi NTarrant
I witnessed a conductor a couple of weeks ago demand (probably better to use the word extort a substantial amount of cash) from 3 young lads, going up to Edinburgh for the weekend. Clearly on a tight budget, they had purchased saver tickets for a specific train.

Their error…..My train pulled into the same platform at York , at exactly the same time as their train should have . Clearly not being train spotters and both trains heading to their destination, they got on. … Boards not updated, or warnings given, and a jobs worth gestapo guard as a conductor and what have we got……

An occurrence that I’ve seen time and time again and again…..

It’s particularly embarrassing when the rigidity is enforced on visitors to this country, who are overwhelmed by the complexity and sheer ambiguity of train ticketing in this country. And if I was a cynic, designed deliberately to catch the stupid and naïve amongst us out !!!

As I said…SHAMBOLIC !!

[SealinkBF]

I am not trying to make a political point, I am unable to understand why railways are better if owned by the State when airlines, cars, taxis, ships and other forms of transport are palpably not.

This is a bit stream-of-conciousness….

Communities across the country have lost air services from Heathrow , because BA couldn’t make money (or could make more money by using the slots elsewhere). Because BA isn’t there to provide a service to them.

Bus services can be amazing where the money is, and really poor elsewhere – dependent on the whims of Stagecoach, First Group etc. and other places only have service if it’s subsidised by local councils, and only when local councils are engaged. Places like Devon and Cornwall and even Essex seem to get it right. TfL is the other obvious example of ‘getting it right’, although they irk me for other reasons!

Caledonian MacBrayne and Northlink ferries are state run and provide what are basically lifeline routes. The likes of P&O and Stena have done well because there is competition. Although even some people think they have a duopoly on routes.

The railways are a strange case, and I go back to my point about as a country, we don’t know what we want from them. So we have the tax payer spending billions on things like the WCML, so that Virgin Trains can flood the market with £5 tickets to Birmingham and Manchester, while they charge far more on trains that people actually want to travel on. Except for capped fares, because … well, why were capped fares introduced? Was it because the government knew the imperative of private companies is not to put the passenger first?

BR weren’t perfect. Their policy of closure by stealth was poor. They were introducing new trains…. slowly.
But how much of BR’s imperfection was due to them being cash starved? When today’s TOCs are cash-starved, they just walk away.

[Charles-P]

Reading through the various points here it seems to me we all agree that the old BR was underfunded, we all agree that the current rail companies are not doing a great job and that the involvement of the government is not helping. This leads me back to me original question,
Why would it improve if owned by the State ? What is the ‘magic bullet’ that would be introduced by having government ownership ?

Here in Belgium the argument has been made that the deterioration in quality of the Belgian Rail network is a direct result of it being a State entity.

[NTarrant]

Hi Canucklad
The jobsworth, gestapo style guards and conductors have been around way before privatisation. I recall in the 70’s and 80’s the hardline that was taken by some of these fellows.

I agree that when it comes to service quality there are many that let their companies down, just as there were in BR days. Interesting you mention about foreign passengers, in the days of the boat trains at Victoria, ticket staff had to wear a different uniform than their domestic colleagues because passengers from abroad ignored the standard BR uniform

[LuganoPirate]

Some interesting arguments here on both sides. Personally I’m in favour of state run railways for the same reason I’m in favour of state run water and electricity, that is vital services should not be left to the private sector.

For a well run state owned railroad, look no further than Switzerland. Clean and efficient with reasonable fares. A simplified ticketing system and one where you can break your journey without penalty if you wish.

Interestingly the first railroad company in Switzerland was owned by the British which is why the trains run on the left side of the tracks!

[MrMichael]

I am on the side of having a state owned railway, that is not to say that I believe state ownership is the right thing for other things. I can see no advantage to the privatised railways, it is still being subsidised by the Taxpayer with private enterprise creaming it off. The fiasco of National Express walking away from the East Mainline was the last straw for me. Any business in the private sector must take a certain amount of risk…no business can exist without a certain level of risk taking. Sometimes it goes wrong and a loss is made, and has to be absorbed. In the case of National Express, they just walked, and to me that was a disgraceful thing to allow to happen. If a company takes too much risk….and it does not pan out….you go bust. So how come National Express is still walking tall? It seems to me it is a business model for the private sector with potential profit and no loss….a one way bet at the expense of the taxpayer. Disgraceful.

[FDOS_UK]

LuganoPirate – 29/09/2015 22:13 BST

I support your logic about vital services being publicly operated.

[LuganoPirate]

MrM +1

Thanks FDoS

[AnthonyDunn]

My word, what a load of social democrats we (almost) all are…! §:-)

[NTarrant]

Getting back to the Op’s question, how would state owned be better? The questions have to be:

* How would the bad old days of BR be avoided?
* How would it be better than what we currently have?
* What guarantee is there that profits will be reinvested into the system? In other words, profits being used for other things

Whilst I don’t believe in state owned transport, sorry Anthony I’m not one of your social democrats, but if someone can convince me with hard fact the answers to the above I might be pursuaded otherwise.

[canucklad]

Some good questions NTarrant , So here are my thoughts on how to improve our railways without reverting back to BR and their perceived inedible sandwiches, constant strikes etc, etc…..

And I’m immediately drawn to what made BOAC a viable and much missed company, whilst BEA disappeared with the mutterings of good riddance echoing in the rings of corporate circles.

To begin with, employees need to have pride in the business they represent. So lets ensure they have a stake in the business..
Let’s build in a Canadian solution, by calling them Crown corporations and not nationalised companies, thus ensuring direct political interference is removed from the equation..
I’d make sure success is rewarded, rather than penalised. This should encourage innovation and remove risk adverse management.

Will consider the specifics later on at my hotel …..

[FDOS_UK]

To turn things around, we need to get rid of these rubbish foreign Pendolinos and get Gordon and Henry working the Pulmans again.

[Author]

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