[Hilary321]

I am much more concerned about one pilot being on the flight deck with the door locked than I am about the flight deck door being left open.

Last Friday I was on BA990 LHR-TXL. The cabin crew were serving breakfast and the Club Europe cabin was quite large. They were behind where I was seated in row 4 when the flight deck door opened and the captain came out locking it behind him. He stayed in the galley for several minutes alone as the crew continued to serve breakfast. He then re-entered the flight deck.

That in the aftermath of the dreadful Germanwings incident bothers me far more than the reports above about the Aegean captain.

I’m well aware that British Airways have systematically declined to say what their policy now is but it is quite obvious, it’s not the first time I’ve seen this happen and I don’t like it one bit.

[CathayLoyalist2]

FDOS_UK, are you suggesting you would say nothing were you to witness a potential security breach? I would agree how you communicate your concerns is one thing but to let it pass without comment. Whether an open door or a locked door surely it is all a question of robust security and that requires everyone to be vigilant. You are only as strong as your weakest link and two incidents described in this thread pose a risk. So are we going to give a gallic shrug if a security guy at any airport allowed someone through with 110 ml of water because it was only 10mml over the limit. As one of the former Met Police Commissioners said “we aim to thwart every attack a terrorist only needs one success”

[FDOS_UK]

I am suggesting that professional crew follow their SOPs and regulations.

As a passenger, I am not aware of the airline SOPs, the laws of the state of registration or of the airspace the flight is operating within and thus I have no reasonable basis to decide what may or may not be a security breach by a crew member.

An aircraft in flight is not run on a democratic basis and passengers are not in the chain of command (capt, FO, SCC etc).

The only two occasions I’ve pointed out a problem to a crew member were (1) some years ago, when I spotted a small, but persistent liquid leak from an engine cowling, which turned out to be a very minor oil leak and for which the FO thanked me for reporting and said they would get fixed at the next stop and (2) a passenger who appeared to be ill/in distress on an Emirates flight last year and who, it turned out, was half asleep due to a very long journey and wasn’t quite sure where he was.

In the case of (1) I have held a pilot’s licence for over 20 years and have enough understanding of aero engines to conclude that the leak was unusual and (2) the guy was nearly falling over and was confused, so it was a matter of simply bringing it to a crew member’s attention and then getting my butt out of the way.

Otherwise, I let the professionals get on with it and read a book.

[CathayLoyalist2]

I’ll accept that we have different opinions on this

[EU_Flyer]

FDOS_UK – 10/05/2016 14:15 BST – Agreed.

I once reported passengers secretly drinking copious amounts of whisky and obviously on the verge of intoxication – but only because they were seated at an over-wing exit and ONLY after I quietly spoke with them quietly first but was ignored.

But passengers are different to crew.

Whilst I know this may seem silly – playing on-board policeman to the crew (flight deck or cabin) , where you don’t know exactly what is going on and where it’s not an obvious case of the Captain trying to strangle a flight attendant – it’s usually better not to start filming or taking photos or interfering unless you know exactly what you’re doing and willing to accept the consequences if you’re wrong.

Crew are trained to keep each other in check. That’s part of their role. It’s not the role of passengers, in my opinion.

[FDOS_UK]

Alex_Fly – 10/05/2016 16:56 BST

You were right to raise the issue of the drinkers, IMHO – I would have done the same.

[MartynSinclair]

Isn’t it rather ironic how crew turn a blind eye to being filmed……..

When a passenger is restrained in flight…. or…. when authorities come on board on landing to arrest a passenger…… all those cameras appear filming ‘the incident’ with absolutely no comments from the crew.

Personally I still think airline personnel are just being paranoid….

[PeterCoultas]

Pointed out that chap should not be next to emergency exit (though flanked by minders) while threatening to commit suicide – He and they were removed before take off to other seats.

Pointed out (just after 9/11) a row of “arabs” with bottles of water (was it really???) only to be told to shut up (in Zurich).

Ignorance is bliss, until it goes wrong….always say something even if it seems stupid…

[MrMichael]

FDOS, let professionals get in with it is fine, but even professionals get things wrong, break the rules etc.

It seems ironic to me that some people will challenge a crew member over warm champagne, the bread being not warm enough, the butter being hard, their neighbour snoring too loud and any manor of things to do with the hotel aspect of the service. With the safety of the flight if I suspect something is wrong, not safe I am going to challenge it. Just ask, no aggression just an ……..”is that right?”. My hotel last night had a fire door blocked with builders paraphernalia, I insisted it was removed before I went back to my room. They grumbled about it, but I stuck to my guns.

Martyn, i agree, I think a lot of people are paranoid about being photographed/filmed. My view is the same as with public CCTV, if you ain’t doing anything wrong, why worry.

[FDOS_UK]

MartynSinclair – 10/05/2016 17:21 BST

Completely agree, I can’t even photograph clients in Europe and put their pix on our website, without a modelling agreement – it’s nuts. But that’s the law.

MrMichael – 10/05/2016 18:18 BST

The difference is that most of us are competent to assess service and product delivered, but not airline ops.

In the case of your blocked fire door, that is completely understandable. If the airline taxied out with a passenger door open or flames coming out of the back of an engine, I’d say something, too.

[JohnHarper]

I’m curious to know why the CAA would have any jurisdiction over a Greek aircraft overflying Switzerland.

I wonder, although the OP has now said he has not contacted them why he would have imagined it would serve any purpose.

[HKFlyer]

I hope Aegean handles this in a proportional and reasonable manner. Unfortunately airline security has become popularized and reactive due to a few and extremely unlikely events. And politicians who want to be seen to be doing something jump on the bandwagon.

For example the 2 persons in the cockpit policy has been widely criticized in professional circles. Amongst other IFALPA has taken a stand against it. Like in every aspect of security where you try to increase the level of security by increasing the number of persons involved you will inevitably increase the risks with the same magnitude.

The same would probably apply to security screenings etc.

Moreover, popping out to have a word with the cabin crew is human and important for CRM. CRM happens every day, extreme terrorist attacks maybe once in a decade or two. Extreme lockdown serves no one. It only serves to keep up appearances of a super safe system that is in reality full of holes to be exploited.

[philsquares]

To be honest, this is much ado about nothing and I say that as a recently retired airline Captain who has spent the last 25 years flying nothing but long haul international flights.

The two person in the cockpit POLICY is just that, it is a policy. It not a regulation as set out by EASA or the FAA. It is a policy and the airlines are trying to, as best as they can, enforce the policy. But there are times where it just doesn’t work. Having a cabin crew come into the cockpit disrupts the cabin service. Passengers don’t like that when it happens and sadly, the premium cabins are closest to the cockpit door. Now it seems as though passengers don’t like having the cabin occupied by a single occupant and the door open. There is no “policy” that works 100% of the time!

There are times where I have had to leave the cockpit and only planned on being gone for a minute but ended up spending longer because I get “sidetracked” by a passenger/flight attendant or both! The only regulation is the pilots should not leave their seats except for physiological needs. That is a very broad statement and covers a wide range of situations from the obvious need to needing to stretch their legs for circulation.

Pilots are human and we do make mistakes. We are just like everyone else, but you have to view the mistake in context. The thought of complaining to the company is just amazing. Was it unsafe? No! Did anything happen to compromise safety? No. Then what’s the big deal? Again, there isn’t one.

With respect to having photos taken by passengers, it varies from airline to airline. Personally, I could care less. But, I know some pilots who refuse to have their photo taken. In fact, they will go so far as to not state their surname. Paranoia? Perhaps, but I’m not in their shoes and will leave it to them. One person wrote about double standard when a pax is being removed no one objects to filming that. I don’t think that’s it all. The cabin crew is busy at that point in time and telling someone not to film is not a high priority task that must be accomplished.

I’d better stop now before I start to pontificate about what I don’t miss about not flying anymore!!!

[FDOS_UK]

HKFlyer – 11/05/2016 11:09 BST

+1

philsquares – 11/05/2016 12:05 BST

You are underestimating the fear that the media/public authorities etc. have created in some passengers. I agree completely with your point that there was no compromise of safety (and have stated it earlier in the thread), but some people see threats in everything and the behaviour you find amazing is the result.

I’m concerned about an airline that manages to despatch an aircraft with both cowls unlocked, because that shows a systematic failure and creates a clear risk to flight. I am concerned when a capable long range twinjet is put into a stall and not recovered, for obvious reasons.

But concerned about a pilot in the galley or an open flight deck door? Perhaps I have a little more insight than the average pax (enough to know that I don’t know that much and to trust the crew)

[JohnHarper]

FDOS_UK – 11/05/2016 12:31 BST +1

IMO the level of hysteria that surrounds airline security is way out of control and has been for some considerable time particularly in Western Europe.

There are many places in the world where security does not dosplay the level of paranoia like LHR and strangely planes are not being blown out of the sky.

My particular bug bear is the ridiculous liquids situation. We were promised when the current moronic regulations were introduced (bearing in mind you can buy the ingredients of a fairly destructive device in any duty free shop) that all would be resolved four years ago. So as I throw away yet another can of shaving gel which is OK because it hasn’t burned my face off I can stop off and buy explosive liquids in duty free.

Then again in many more sensible parts of the world there is no liquids ban anyway and planes are not being blown up by stray bottles of water and cans of shaving gel.

[Author]

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