LHR Snow Disruption – Jan 2010 Views

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  • Anonymous
    Guest

    DisgustedofSwieqi
    Participant

    Very often, news organisations collate clips of the news at this time of year and reflect on the 12 months gone.

    I thought I would look back and see what BT posters were saying about winter weather disruption at Heathrow in January 2010.

    “No, they do not have sufficient [deicing equipment] and given that the weather is the worst for 30 years you would not expect them to have”

    “Sorry but why is it unacceptable thinking to spend millions of pounds on equipment that may be used to its full extent a few times every ten years? As Binman says its sound business sense. You have to think what you could use that money for instead and get value for it 365 days of the year not once in a blue moon.

    Even farmers don’t buy expensive combine harvesters anymore, the hirer them in, why would they invest thousands of pounds on a bit of kit that sits rotting in a barn for 49 weeks of the year? Same applies”

    “Heathrow may get snow once or twice a year and an event like we are having now is a once in 30 years. The costs to airlines may be £10 or £20 millions but the costs of investing in single deicing rig are £250,000 plus training and ongoing maintenance. Airlines and handling agents do invest in this equipment to cope with frosts and have strategies to deal with this. (BA ant ice overnight for example). But no matter how much they invested, the infrastructure of LHR; runways, ATC restrictions, lack of jetty served gates, etc would still cause problems.”

    “How many times over the last 10 years has LHR been disrupted by snow? this year for a few days, and last year for a few days. I can’t recall (althought am happy to be corrected) any other snow cancellations for quite some time. Therefore, it obviously it would not have been a good investment to date.”

    “As another poster pointed out, the issue is one of “opportunity cost”. Given that money is not unlimited, then what is the best use of it? Spending more on snow equipment for those few days every 10 years or so or more security, better ATC to get the aircraft up/down quicker etc. This debate is getting a bit silly, because people are assuming that money is endless, when in reality it is not. If you must argue that there should be snow equipment, then state that you are prepared to pay more for having this privelege, or that you are happy to trade off longer security queues or what ever you think should be traded off.”

    And I will end with this briiliant analysis from our own, dear, VK

    ” London remains the busiest international airport in the world, processing 63 million people last year. While there are two US airports which are busier (Chicago and Atlanta) these are both significantly larger and also handle a much larger proportion of Domestic travellers than LHR. A few days of snow will hardly dent this, and is not significant in the scheme of things.

    It seems the economists among us get it, others not so much….”

    Well it seems the economists should perhaps pick up some shovels and start digging out 😉

    Merry Xmas everyone.

    When does the next batch of “worst weather in 30 years” strike?


    VintageKrug
    Participant

    No need; Heathrow has just opened its second runway, and the thaw has come.

    It is quite clear to me that BAA should not provision to be able to to be fully functional throughout any snow event.

    But BAA has failed to adequately provision to recover within a reasonable timeframe, and in the case of aircraft stand de-icing it was clear that almost zero capability existed, which is unacceptable. That needs to change and will require additional investment.

    What is clear is that we simply must accept that a serious snow event at the busiest time of the year will cause some amount of disruption, and plan accordingly.

    The balance of snow-preparedness investment currently being calculated by BAA plc is not correct, and needs to change.

    But at the same time, they are investing millions in new terminals and other strategic planning at LHR, and the evidence of that is plain for all of us who actually use the airport regularly.

    But the premise remains the same: given past trends it simply doesn’t make economic sense to invest to the levels which would provision the airport to handle virtually any snow event, that the weather seen most recently was exceptionally severe, if short-lived, and that simply opening up the chequebook does not solve LHR’s structural overcrowding issues.

    I think the economists among us can sleep very soundly based on the analysis presented above.


    Cedric_Statherby
    Participant

    With respect, I think the argument that “we cannot expect BAA to prepare in advance for such extreme weather” – which is trotted out with religious enthusiasm by BAA’s spokespeople and apologists – needs to be challenged.

    The argument hinges on three factors
    1) the frequency of the extreme weather
    2) the cost of the disruption if the preventative action is not taken
    3) the cost of the preventative action

    BAA’s defence relies on everyone assuming that the answers to these are
    1) very infrequent
    2) not very high
    3) very high.

    I would argue that all three of these assumptions are wrong.

    On the first, the number of days of snow delays seems to be increasing, and as this is the third winter running where we have had this snow it is no longer defensible to claim it is a “once in 30 years event”. On the second, the cost of the disruption is simply huge – if you add together working time lost, business lost, personal costs, plans disrupted and the damage tto the UK’s reputation, I would not be surprised if an economist could not find a figure of hundreds of millions of pounds. And on the last – the cost to BAA of preventative measures – they are very carefully completely silent, but I doubt it runs to £10 million.

    So I dispute the standard argument that it is not worth spending money to forestall this chaos next time. We have an event which looks like happening much more regularly, costs a fortune to the country every time, and can be prevented at a fraction of the cost. Indeed, taking the economy as a whole, any money BAA had spent before the last few days’ disruption would probably have been paid back in this snow event alone!

    The rub is though that the cost is to BAA, and the benefit is to passengers, citizens, taxpayers and the country as a whole. So BAA, being a selfish profit-maximising company, will not spend the money unless forced to. Perhaps a fine of £100,000 for every plane which did not fly might persuade them?


    dutchyankee
    Participant

    I bet BAA would spend the money immediately if all the airlines were able to recover their full losses and costs incurred due to the closure of the airport, from BAA, or by the airlines not paying any fees to BAA until such costs are covered!


    MartynSinclair
    Participant

    The people who dont get it are those stuck behind desks or in the comfort of their pwn homes. The people who get are those stuck in the airports, sleeping on floors and wondering when they are going to move into the departure halls.

    The best part of your post Disgusting, I agree with you about picking up the shovel, pity you werent there to help shovel the snow, you were needed!!


    DisgustedofSwieqi
    Participant

    “The best part of your post Disgusting, I agree with you about picking up the shovel, pity you werent there to help shovel the snow, you were needed!!”

    We don’t get much snow in Swieqi (a few flakes in 1962, but did not settle) and I have to admit to cutting and running from Gatwick on the Thursday before the end of the world, as I lived in the UK for a long time and the outcome was sadly only too predictable.

    I’ve earned my dues in airports over the years and have immense sympathy for those affected, particularly those visiting very sick or elderly relatives, for what might be their last Christmas together.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swieqi


    dutchyankee
    Participant

    We needed different help here in Belgium as the airport ran out of De-Icing fluid, and the shipments come over land usually from France. France stopped trucks due to the horrendous road conditions. So Brussels Airport, even with two of it’s three runways operational, came to a departures stand-still until late yesterday morning when the fluid arrived from Germany. Amazing how everything is so intertwined, you only really notice when the poop hits the fan, and especially as Martyn said, when you are sitting in it yourself and being so horribly affected by it.


    VintageKrug
    Participant

    affected, not effected.

    Hardly sitting behind a desk!

    While others sit about moaning for compensation, I have maintained a very busy travel schedule over the past five days, using the UK’s airports (Friday), trains (Sat/Sun) and road network (Mon/Tue) and will be flying again tomorrow.

    None of these has been in any way disrupted, despite being in the thick of the snow events.


    stevescoots
    Participant

    Like most things, S**t happens. i was stuck in T4 on saturday, bizzarly I had landed just as it closed but ended up in teh arrivals for 4 hours waiting for my car to come, but thats a diffrent story..

    anyway it gave me great time to observe the poor souls waiting to fly out. I have to say most accepted the situation due to weather, however as with most things the absolutly lamentable situation was that no information was coming from anyone, half the boards showed blank, not even a cancelled message, if you wanted info you had to wait at the desks for hours just to ask a basic question. BAA were silent, the only BAA staff around were cleaners constantly drying the floors. down in arrivals there was crowd of people waiting to leave, BAA did not even announce that they had closed the terminals to car and bus access. so the only way people found out was by calling thier relatives (or in my case the car park)

    If people have to wait 24 hours then they have to wait, but i can gurantee they woudl feel much more at ease if BAA actually told them, rather than silence


    DisgustedofSwieqi
    Participant

    “None of these has been in any way disrupted, despite being in the thick of the snow events.”

    That’s because the hot air you generate melts all the snow in your path 😉

    Only joking, have a Merry Christmas and good travels.


    stevescoots
    Participant

    and strangley while all this was going on i did not see a single police officer in the departures hall or outside, i guess the terrorist threat vanishes when it snows.


    dutchyankee
    Participant

    VK, I forgot not only are you the emperor of all things travel, you are also the spelling and grammar god. Considering English is my third, not even first or second language, I sincerely hope you will excuse this minor error. I have of course corrected this immediately!


    Binman62
    Participant

    VK….Hardly sitting behind a desk!

    While others sit about moaning for compensation, I have maintained a very busy travel schedule over the past five days, using the UK’s airports (Friday), trains (Sat/Sun) and road network (Mon/Tue) and will be flying again tomorrow.

    If you flew on Friday from LHR you were very fortunate. Sadly many thousands were not. Too right I want compensation, it has costs me over £1000 to get a family home from Germany, it is also my 4th claim this year on the same policy and all the flights were on BA. I would not blame any insurer who now refuses to cover BA passengers or those using LHR.

    People without your indepth and iside information have no idea LHR is running at 98% capcity and have no idea it cannot be maintained in the most summer months let alone in 2 inches of snow. What has been done to people is a disgrace and in my own case was cruel. Stuck on arcraft without adequate provisions and toilet facilities for a total of 10 hours in 3 days. Held hostage would be a better description as on Friday we were clarly told no refund, no bags, no help. As Stevescoots commented how come the terror threat goes away when there is disruption and the Ministry of transport suddenly can allow bags to travel withut owners???

    The BAA are at fault for not having the ability to deal with snow. BA are to blame for their incompetance last Friday and their refusal to plan in the face of obvious disruptive weather at LHR.

    A lot of the time you have great wisdom and knowledge about business travel and that is welcome. Your commenst about those stuck in these appalling circumstances are as out of touch as the minister for transport is, along with the CEO of the BAA and the operational manangemnt team at BA.


    VintageKrug
    Participant

    http://wesleying.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Grammar-Police.png

    😉

    I know I make just as many spelling errors and typos as anyone; however unless we take something of a stand, such errors will be needlessly perpetuated.

    Or should I say perpetuated needlessly….

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