[MartynSinclair]

Mr Michael “fat cats in the cockpit” – what do you think a pilot should be paid ? 2 dozen bonios??

[MrMichael]

MartynSinclair, The going rate according to supply and demand, just like any other profession, skill or service. With the exception of Lufthansa and Air France in Europe pilots at full service airlines earn a decent living. The former two are paid 50% more than their European partners, and that is why those two airlines are trying to get the salarys to a reasonable level and are experiencing industrial action. The business model of paying over the odds is not sustainable, whether that be for fuel, aircraft, goods, services, staff or crew. I have no doubt in your business you go out of your way to get the best value you can, airlines are no different.

[MrMichael]

I guess this also re-opens a previous thread on whether a 747 captain was worth the same as 737 captain. I took the somewhat unpopular position that the 737 pilot was possibly worth more. Until very recently It was accepted that the most skilful part of a pilots job was taking off and landing, something a 737 pilot probably does four times more often than a 747 pilot. Yet on average a 737 gets paid less than half that of a 747 pilot. Long haul pays better…….why,?

[MartynSinclair]

The most skillfull part of a pilots job, is being able to identify and problem solve issues and potential faults a very critical times… Take off and landing, you could teach a seven year old, as I taught my son!

I am more interested to hear what you feel is a “fat cats” salary for a pilot…

After all, other professionals (Solicitors/barristers/accountants) all have differing income levels….. its not JUST supply and demand…

[superchris]

no

[MrMichael]

I agree there to some extent Martyn, I personally am enumerated at a scale about 30% above the average for my profession, but not the highest paid by any means. Perhaps Fat Cats was a poor choice of words. What I was trying to say is that many pilots, particularly with the do called flag carriers were paid far more than was the average for that profession. I think it harks back in the UK to the old nationalised days of BOAC, where the BEA pilots were the poor relation (and those were Norman Tebbits words who was a BOAC pilot). It is still the case tht AF and LH are paying their long haul pilots salarys way out of kilter with the industry norm, and due only to the historical ineptitude of those who ran airlines in the 1970’s when being a pilot was considered a dangerous job. Of course I do not think pilots should be paid peanuts, and in most airlines they earn a decent enough salary that does not threaten the very existence of the airline they fly for. I mean for christs sale, Air France pilots hardly have a reputation for being very good, yet they are the highest paid in the world. Are they worth it…..NO.

Regarding the most skilful part of a pilots job being to problem solve…again…..agreed. But do you Martyn have higher expectations on. a 747 or 777 than you do on a 737 or a320?, I doubt it. if pay equalled skill I would only ever fly LH or AF long haul…..but I dont. I don’t even consider it, I expect the airline to ensure the flight crew have the requisite skills irrelevant of pay or aircraft type.

[MartynSinclair]

Absolutely I do have a higher expectation on the larger more complex aircraft.

There is far more complexity on the A380 over an A319…. and therefore I think pilots on the complex aircraft deserve more.

Same in General Aviation… a VLJ pilot (smallest jets) do not deserve the same pay scales as a much larger Gulftream / Challenger etc pilot..

[MrMichael]

Ok, couple of questions for you Martyn?

Is a 747 3 x as complex as a 737?

Why does an AF pilot deserve 30% more than a BA pilot?

If you were running an airline, would you pay your crew 50% more than Ryanair short haul or Emirates long haul if you did not need to?

[MartynSinclair]

Mr Michael..

Going by the training course and manual, I would say yes… (and I do not speak from experience).

However, going from a VLJ to a Gulfstream, probably 5 or 6 times more complex.

The fact is most aeroplanes fly the same way. throttle, flaps, pull/push stick.. the major difference is the speed they take off/land and the pilots perspective from the cockpit at approach and point of touch down…

However, far more systems create the complexity…. and very simply the 747 has far more systems that can go wrong than a 737.

I am involved in crewing corporate jets, and yes there is a need to sometimes pay pilots differing amounts…

In the case of AF v BA pilots, I haven’t seen the stats but even within BA you have pilots on different contracts…

[MrMichael]

Trying to get this back on track, the original point I was making is that Ryanair and its business model has given benefit not just to Ryanair shareholders, but shareholders and passengers using other airlines including the full service airlines and flag carriers. I am not an expert on Pilot skills, but it is clear that what Ryanair think a pilot is worth, and what an LH pilot thinks they are worth are miles apart. Subsequently, and ultimately it will be the market that decides. That will likely be with Ryanair paying more than they want to, and LH/AF doing what KLM/BA/AA and many others have already done and brought their pilots pay more inline with supply and demand.

As you know more about pilot skills than me, I will accept what you say, but still say that supply and demand will rule the roost eventually. If in the future corporate jet pilots becomes scarcer, then you will end up paying more for them, and if there is a surplus of them, you will no doubt be offering less favourable terms.

[MartynSinclair]

One of the main issues in pilot career progression, is the ability to accumulate hours on jets…

Budding pilots will do absolutely anything to get jet time and type ratings. Hence why airlines like Ryan Air have the ability to offer zero hour contracts.

Flying is a unique career. Nearly 100% of entrants enter the profession because of their love of flying. Read any pilot profile and most will say, “getting paid to do your hobby is brilliant” – check this months BA magazine….. a 777 pilot says just that….

hence, budding pilots will sell themselves to the devil..

Airlines like BA and perhaps AF, recognize the pilots worth and skills….

If Ryan could get away paying minimum wage to pilots, they would…. is that a fair or professional business model……….??? You tell me….

[MrMichael]

No Martyn, and I made clear I did not think it was. As I said in my last post, Ryanair are likely paying flight crew more than they want to, LH/AF paying more than they can afford, BA according to Willie Walsh the right rate for the job. The other “flag carriers” of Europe such as KLM/SAS/Swiss etc are paying on a par with BA and that is nothing like minimum wage. I would suggest BA has it about right. A poster on another thread suggested a pilot should get the same as a train driver as a train carries more pax, I do not buy in to that. pilots as I understand it have to invest a lot of their own time and effort to get in to the profession, and that too should be reflected. I heard somewhere that a new FlyBe pilot gets hardly more than the minimum wage and that is just plain wrong. However, I stand by my view that LH and AF pilots are overpaid and need to wake up to the real commercial world of aviation where their salarys are threatening the very survival and ongoing investment in the business they rely on for a living.

Do you concur with the final paragraph in my previous post?

[MartynSinclair]

not necessarily so Mr Michael…

Corporate pilots (Captains) never become scarce.. they usually come from legacy carriers, wanting a change from being a bus driver to a high class chauffeur… you are paying for the skill ….

Oh dear… now I wait for the abuse….. 🙂

have a great weekend..

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