[rferguson]

I find it difficult in this situation to blame BA.

The facts are:

– Israel completely closed their airport to international traffic. There have been a few repartriation flights but these have only been allowed to be operated by El Al.

– On Sunday just gone, Israeli ministers voted to reopen TLV to international traffic. HOWEVER only 2000 people per day will be able to enter Israel amongst all operating airlines. As has been seen with the similar restrictions in Australia this will force airlines that want to operate the route to severely restrict how may seats they can provide. Airlines have to act responsibly but not to their own detriment.

– Just because you search fares for the 15th March does not mean those flights will operate.

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thecartoonman, Bullfrog

[SimonS1]

[postquote quote=1092831]

Sorry, but this is not correct advice. The only relevance of 2 weeks is if more than 2 weeks notice is given then no cash compensation is payable.

If any confirmed booking is cancelled the passenger has the choice of:

1. A refund within 7 days, or
2. Rerouting at the earliest possible opportunity, or
3. Rerouting at some future time provided seats are available.

The traveller is also entitled to duty of care ie hotel, refreshments, transport to hotel while delayed.

BA has no choice but to apply this as EC261 is legally binding on any UK/EU airline flying into the UK.

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Polly, ASK1945

[SimonS1]

[postquote quote=1092840]

As above: this is complete nonsense. EC261 Articles 5(1), 8 and 9 make totally clear what should happen.

The passenger is entitled to rerouting at the earliest convenience plus duty of care in the meantime. Whether BA has “agreements” with LH, EL AL etc would be irrelevant in a court as BA would be able to book on LH in a normal commercial manner.

In fact on 18th March 2020 the EC issued guidance notes on the application of EC261 during Covid which make this completely clear.

To say the onus is on the passenger to make their way home is not correct and very poor advice.

The traveller should raise this again with BA, if necessary ask for a deadlock letter and take the case to CEDR which is the designated arbitration company.

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Polly, Bullfrog, ASK1945

[SimonS1]

By the way…poster should also look at a claim under Israel Aviation Services Law. This is similar to EC261 but more generous to the traveller.

Attached is the article posted on BA website as legally required.

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Polly, ASK1945

[MartynSinclair]

[quote quote=1092847]The traveller is also entitled to duty of care ie hotel, refreshments, transport to hotel while delayed.[/quote]

SimonS1, if the passenger is stuck for multiple days due to an alternative flight not being offered, is the ‘entitlement’, for hotels etc capped or unlimited?

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Polly

[SimonS1]

[postquote quote=1092851]

There is nothing in EC law to cap it, Martyn. In fact the attached guidance notes issued last year stress again the entitlement.

You may recall in the Icelandic volcano situation in 2010 some airlines were up in arms that travellers who had paid £50 a ticket had to be accommodated for several nights. The legal stance at the time….that’s a risk the airline has to take into account when setting ticket prices, bearing in mind such things happen infrequently. The airline could increase prices by £2 and insure against it, but the responsibility cannot be passed off to the traveller.

Comments about BA not having an ‘agreement’ with other airlines would not help them in a legal case, to the contrary it would indicate they put commercial considerations above the ‘right to rerouting at the earliest opportunity’. It might be that a court would consider a 24 hour wait for the next BA flight as OK, but if the next BA flight was a week away and LH was flying the next day that wouldn’t wash.

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Polly

[DanielV]

[postquote quote=1092848]

Many thanks for all your help with this. I have given up trying to resolve this directly with BA and have now issued proceedings against BA in the small claims court.

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Polly, ASK1945, SimonS1

[rferguson]

2. Rerouting at the earliest possible opportunity, or

From my own recent experience, it is this clause that is not particularly clear and is open to interpretation and debate – especially the ‘earliest possible opportunity’ bit.

I returned from Brazil a couple weeks ago. Whilst I was already IN Brazil the government added the country to the red list as well as Portugal which was a double blow as I was flying home to Manchester via LIS on TP (disruption aside was really impressed with their J product btw 😉 ). I researched EU261 before contacting TAP with the intention of being re-routed via LIS and say AMS or MAD. And this is where I hit a stumbling block – TAP insisted that as it was ‘at the earliest possible opportunity’ that applied to them ‘possibly’ being able to look at partner flights.

I actually contacted one of the online EU261 solicitors via their webchat facility and asked about this and they admitted it was a ‘grey area’ and if the wording of the regulation was ‘rerouting on the next available flight operated by any commercial carrier’ it would be much clearer from a legal perspective. In the end I accepted TP’s offer of flying me anywhere they fly with their own metal in europe and getting my own way from there. So ended up flying to MAD and using Avios from there to London on IB and train up to Manchester. At own expense.

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Polly, Bullfrog, ASK1945

[rferguson]

Just to add thepointsguy did a decent summing up of EU261 and how it’s applied during COVID:

Can I claim EU261 compensation if my flight was delayed or cancelled because of coronavirus?

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Polly

[SimonS1]

Indeed that is a good summary which confirms that only the compensation issue is covered by the 14 days notice/exceptional circumstances aspect.

If you have a confirmed reservation on an airline that cancels on you they are responsible for either reimbursing or rerouting you, together with your care, period. To suggest this is the traveller’s issue is complete nonsense and defeats the whole point of regulation.

The only exception is the case the other day where the traveller makes pro-active changes based on info seen on Facebook etc before the airline has confirmed the cancellation. That then becomes a voluntary change, and at the traveller’s expense.

TAP is an interesting case, for a long time they have routinely denied EC261 payments, however they paid up last year when Flightright had their bank accounts and assets in Germany frozen with a threat to impound any arriving aircraft.

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Polly, Bullfrog, DanielV, ASK1945

[Ah,Mr.Bond]

I fail to see how BA has been “Hopeless”… Your son flew out in the middle of a global pandemic and since August things have taken a turn for the worse with tighter restrictions placed on air routes and so on, some of it totally outside of the airlines control. There may well be alternative flights running, but BA can not simply be expected to book your son on LY,LH,LX etc. The course of action here is you simply submit his ticket for refund of the unused sector [or voucher if you want] and you purchase a new ticket on another carrier separately if he has to return for essential reasons. That’s job done. Virgin Atlantic is £133 for a direct one way flight on the 15th March so just get this booked. Unless BA cancelled within 2 weeks of departure then EC261 does not apply which would include any compensation or endorsing the ticket to travel on other carriers that you are hoping.
Failing this, the next BA service TLVLHR is 28MAR, just get him rebooked on that. Sorry to be blunt, but he has been there since August, so what difference would another 2 weeks really make.

4 users thanked author for this post.

anyonebutba, thecartoonman, Bullfrog, FaroFlyer

[SimonS1]

[quote quote=1092884]There may well be alternative flights running, but BA can not simply be expected to book your son on LY,LH,LX etc.

The course of action here is you simply submit his ticket for refund of the unused sector [or voucher if you want] and you purchase a new ticket on another carrier separately if he has to return for essential reasons.

Unless BA cancelled within 2 weeks of departure then EC261 does not apply which would include any compensation or endorsing the ticket to travel on other carriers that you are hoping[/quote]

Unfortunately all 3 statements above are legally incorrect, both under EC261 and Israel Aviation Services Law 2012.

EC261 does apply. The 2 weeks is irrelevant in all respects except for cash compensation. The EU already issued clarification notes attached upstream which confirm this.

The responsibility for re-routing and duty of care falls entirely on the airline, regardless of whether it is caused by the global pandemic, or men arriving from Mars.

2 users thanked author for this post.

cwoodward, Polly

[Robert Stevenson]

It is interesting that this is BA again. About 4 years ago I had 4 tickets booked on BA Lgw to Bodrum. The flights were cancelled more than 2 weeks before departure. I contacted BA about re-routing and asking if this is what they should have been doing, but they said no. AS it was outside 2 weeks, all I was entitled to was a refund, go off and find your own flights. So I wonder are they deliberately not following the rules when this happens, that is flights cancelled more than 2 weeks in advance. I ended up having to book new flights with another carrier which were more expensive.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Bullfrog

[ASK1945]

[quote quote=1092884]Virgin Atlantic is £133 for a direct one way flight on the 15th March so just get this booked[/quote]

Where di you find a ticket for £133? Virgin are showing $251.

However, this is not the point; it was for BA to book the ticket, not the OP. I guess you missed all the other earlier contributions to this thread – which fortunately SimonS1 has just summed up nicely.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Polly

[alpine]

[postquote quote=1092838]

ASK1945, where did you get the info about BA164 having actually operated on 16 February? Probably from some app that shows flight movements rather than from BA.com or from the Heathrow website. Because BA164 didn’t operate on that day — BA164F did, and that flight has only 4 humans on board — 2 pilots and 2 flight attendants serving food to the pilots. So there’s that.

[Author]

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