[MartynSinclair]

[quote quote=998840]If you don’t already have it, download the app Flightradar24. On that you can see how many flights into airports are by FedEx, DHL etc etc.

Certainly when I last looked a week ago, most inward and outward flights were cargo.[/quote]

Flight radar is gives the current NOW position of flights. For a clearer daily picture, review the arrival board for Heathrow

https://www.airport-london-heathrow.com/lhr-arrivals

The arrivals time periods can be changed at the foot of the page, today there appear to be 30 passenger flight arrivals. Except for Dublin, I think every other country has medical controls at their border and many preclude UK citizens from entering without a compulsory period of quarantine

For balance, here is the departure board

https://www.airport-london-heathrow.com/lhr-departures?tp=6

[ASK1945]

[postquote quote=998846][/postquote]

Yes Martyn, these boards do give a clear picture for LHR.

However, Flightradar shows what is in the air above the UK (and the rest of the world) but it also has Departures/Arrivals boards for all airports in every country – even minor airports.

This shows a bigger picture of the whole UK, not just LHR.

1 user thanked author for this post.

MartynSinclair

[SimonS1]

[quote quote=998846]The arrivals time periods can be changed at the foot of the page, today there appear to be 30 passenger flight arrivals.[/quote]

With the greatest of respect Martyn the Daily Fail article you highlighted when trying to make your point states “this week there were, on average, 170 flights per day arriving at Heathrow, including ten in one hour from New York“.

So who is talking b/s – Heathrow or the Mail? After all there is a big difference between 170 and 30?

Or am I the only one struggling to understand what you are really trying to prove these days?

[MartynSinclair]

[quote quote=998863]So who is talking b/s – Heathrow or the Mail?[/quote] or SimonS1…. ?

https://www.ft.com/content/91dea18f-ad0e-4dcb-98c3-de836b1ba79b

The University of Oxford is also questioning the UK’s continuing open border policy.

The UK is now accepted as being the only country still retaining an open border / no medical checks for all arriving passengers (and also departing passengers) WORLDWIDE. Despite me asking you, you have not provided any evidence thus far to challenge this fact or the stats about the numbers of passengers arriving into the UK, unchecked, daily.

UK currently has suffered over 34,000 deaths, which you have suggested, (quite rightly) is probably on the light side. This is second highest death rate, only to the USA.

Hot off the press, as posted by Alex – Thailand is extending it’s restriction on all international flights arrivals until the end of June. The other countries who have closed or medical checks on arrival, such as New Zealand and other parts of Asia, their death rates do not compare to the UK, way way lower.

So my point SimonS1, are you still convinced UK’s open border policy and continuing zero checking for arriving passengers is NOT responsible in part to our overall death rate. Are all the other worlds scientific and medical experts, around the world. who are recommending closing borders, implementing medical checks on arrival, wrong as well?

Please support your replies with credible evidence.

I am not trying to prove anything, after all, I am only a poster on the BT Forum. I am only trying to understand why the UK is in the disastrous position it is… unless of course, you feel the UK is in a strong position.

[SimonS1]

[quote quote=998864]Please support your replies with credible evidence.[/quote]

You mean like your “credible evidence”?

In the morning a link to the Daily Fail article telling us that “this week there were, on average, 170 flights per day arriving at Heathrow, including ten in one hour from New York“.

But by the evening pointing us to the Heathrow website and um, well, er, actually “today there appear to be 30 passenger flight arrivals“.

Honestly I knew travel activity was drying up but 170 to 30 is a remarkable fall between am and pm…are the airline CEOs following you on Twitter or something? Honestly quoting such “evidence” makes me chuckle after your recent ‘volte face’ in attempting to offer another poster guidance on what essential travel was, and your strange effort to point at 18.1m travellers in 2020, the majority of whom as you know (like me) arrived before any countries introduced border controls in mid March.

In fact to my knowledge apart from some generalised comments you haven’t yet established how many of the flights/passengers were cargo flights or repatriated Brits entitled to be here? This isn’t a black & white situation and the UK is of course different to Hong Kong, Thailand, Japan and other places quoted.

So just to be clear, I’m not challenging anything – meaning I feel no need to challenge the current official strategy including leaving the decisions to those who have access to the real scientific, medical and economic advice to make an informed decision. Just like I am happy to follow other government advice on masks, social distancing and the (hopefully) impending resumption of travel. I do understand the need for 24×7 media to generate content but I imagine in taking real decisions the Government have access to evidence of information which goes beyond the Daily Mail or counting planes on the LHR website (which as you can see from your own “credible evidence” produces highly variable results,).

[DavidGrodentz]

Irrespective of where the numbers come from, or whether it is 170 or 30, it still seems amazing or reckless (depending on your view), that the UK still has no restrictions on entry or, testing and health declarations on arrival at airports

And, to give 3 weeks notice or possible restrictions, including quarantines, gives rise to another rush of possible returnees.

[cwoodward]

All may not be aware that Flightradar24 gives ( if you pay a little more) the full arrivals and departure boards of every commercial airport worldwide for several days forward or back. Perhaps an easier and more informative tool than looking at individual airport A and D boards.

[SimonS1]

[quote quote=998866]And, to give 3 weeks notice or possible restrictions, including quarantines, gives rise to another rush of possible returnees.[/quote]

I doubt it. There are many people who would love to get back from places like Johannesburg and Lagos but the flights simply don’t exist.

Plus of the 30 or so flights a day many of them have been reported to be substantially empty. In fact Heathrow averaged 6877 passengers a day in April (which is about 430 an hour on a 16 hour day, spread across 2 terminals) so we are not talking about massive volumes here despite what Martyn and the Mail would have you think.

[ASK1945]

[postquote quote=998867][/postquote]

Sorry I didn’t make clear in my earlier post – I have the paid version of Flightradar24, so do have access to all the data you described. It becomes very clear, when examining all this, just how many of the “contrails” still visible when there are no clouds, how many of the current flights are FedEx and all the others.

[Roger]

Without in any way wishing to throw more fuel on the fire, I’d like to add a couple of comments.

1. The UK doesn’t have the second highest death rate, nor does the US have the highest. The UK has the second highest number of deaths but that figure does not take account of population size. Belgium actually has the highest death rate followed by Spain & Italy. UK is fourth. But, nonetheless, nothing to be proud of and distressing figures.

2. I wish I could share SimonS1’s confidence in the scientific advice being given to the government. It seems to me that there is an awful lot of scientific opinion that is not being taken on board and very valid scientific criticisms being made of government modelling that are simply being ignored. I am left with the very strong impression that the science is very far from being “nailed”.

Given that scientists themselves seem to be divided on the best courses of action, it is perhaps unsurprising that there are differences of opinion among the participants here. For my part, our open borders policy looks odd and, at the very least, has not inspired confidence among a wider society that is being asked to make big sacrifices.

3 users thanked author for this post.

DavidGrodentz, ASK1945, SimonS1

[SimonS1]

[quote quote=998874]2. I wish I could share SimonS1’s confidence in the scientific advice being given to the government. It seems to me that there is an awful lot of scientific opinion that is not being taken on board and very valid scientific criticisms being made of government modelling that are simply being ignored. I am left with the very strong impression that the science is very far from being “nailed”.[/quote]

Yes, that is fair. Evidence is often contradictory and someone has to distill what is available and make the hard decisions.

I wouldn’t expect all the decisions to be correct, however I am reassured that they are being taken by appropriately qualified people in the wider national interest, not just to pander to Facebook pressure and readers of the Daily Mail who think ‘something must be done’.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Roa1, ASK1945

[Roger]

Simon

Agreed – though I think the media clamour extends well beyond the Daily Mail and its readership. Some of the comments on The Guardian’s discussion boards, for example, verge on the hysterical. Although I am no fan of this government, they find themselves between a rock and a hard place. Time will tell how successfully they navigate the path, and at what cost.

[MartynSinclair]

I see SimomS1, you feel the combined resource of the Daily Mail, FT, Sky News, BBC, Reuters, to name a few are “fake news”? I believe Boris, has written a piece i today’s Mail – which you seem to continually misspell….

Accepted the, the split between the number essential cargo flights verses passengers flights, even down to scheduled verses repatriation flights, can not easily be identified. Also accepted there remain large amounts of ex-pats / UK citizens who are trying to return to the UK.

That though remains a separate discussion to the theme of our discussion, which like a true politician, you carefully dodge commenting on and carefully select which evidence you wish to consider.

[quote quote=998864]are you still convinced UK’s open border policy and continuing zero checking for arriving passengers is NOT responsible in part to our overall death rate. Are all the other worlds scientific and medical experts, around the world. who are recommending closing borders, implementing medical checks on arrival, wrong as well?[/quote]

(replace ‘death rate’ with number of deaths), thank you for the correction Roger

[quote quote=998871]In fact Heathrow averaged 6877 passengers a day in April (which is about 430 an hour on a 16 hour day, spread across 2 terminals) so we are not talking about massive volumes here despite what Martyn and the Mail would have you think.[/quote]

I have always provided a source to the stats, including the 18.1 miliion passenger entering the UK in Q1 of 2020. However, even your quoted figure, correct or not, of 6877 passengers a day arriving into Heathrow, from all over the globe and dispersing throughout the UK (with zero medical checks) continues to worry me – but clearly you fall into the category of having no worries –

Bottom line SimonS1, just trying to understand why…

[SimonS1]

[quote quote=998877]I see SimomS1, you feel the combined resource of the Daily Mail, FT, Sky News, BBC, Reuters, to name a few are “fake news”?[/quote]

Well the DM article that you gave as evidence yesterday didn’t stand up to much scrutiny. 10 flights in an hour from New York, I would have thought even you would spot that schoolboy howler. Plus this is the media, they are journalists not medical experts, their job is to attract viewers or readers.

[quote quote=998877]I see SimomS1…..which you seem to continually misspell….[/quote]

Looks like I’m not the only one with a faulty spell checker?

[quote quote=998877]That though remains a separate discussion to the theme of our discussion, which like a true politician, you carefully dodge commenting on and carefully select which evidence you wish to consider.[/quote]

Not at all, as I’m quite happy with the official Government policy. I don’t see any need to produce evidence to support that, the Government has medical and scientific people to do that.

[quote quote=998877](replace ‘death rate’ with number of deaths), thank you for the correction Roger[/quote]

Not going well is it? Muddle over “essential travel”, two sources quoting flight numbers as far apart as 170 and 30 a day, confusing death numbers and death rates.

[quote quote=998877]but clearly you fall into the category of having no worries –[/quote]

I wouldn’t say no worries, I just don’t believe I know better sat behind my computer screen than the people actually doing the job. And I recognise that as individuals we can all make a choice – either to re-engage, start travelling and get on with life or to isolate until there are enough vaccines for everyone who will need one, which could be a long time.

It’s not a personal thing Martyn, I just find it quite remarkable the number of social media users up and down the UK that have suddenly found new expertise based on a quick read of the Daily Mail or viewing of Sky News. I’m surprised Boris hasn’t called yet?

[MartynSinclair]

[quote quote=998877]Bottom line SimonS1, just trying to understand why…[/quote]

and your only response is

[quote quote=998879]I wouldn’t say no worries,[/quote]

By you explaining your argument does not thankfully mean you become a professor or an expert. It’s called healthy debate and understanding. By contributing to the BT Forum, you become part of the social media world.

You clearly support our open border policy, which is unique amongst all the overseas border controls. I am interested to hear your your views, which you continually dodge. Do you think the UK open and unchecked border policy has contributed to the 34,000+ deaths within the UK? There are enough media reports showing concern.

You quote many references on other subjects, but on this subject, you appear far more interested in criticising small parts of the press reports, whilst largely ignoring the majority.

Good to see T2 will be finally ‘trialling’ temperature monitors from Thursday.

[Author]

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