[SimonS1]

It’s a completely different model really.

The Middle East is geographically closer to more locations than Europe. The hubs there operate 24 hours a day and the airlines can operate more intense schedules (could you see EK leaving an aircraft on the tarmac all day). The cost of labor is lower so overheads are lower than in Europe.

However I would say Easyjet and Ryanair have made a pretty good job of going fast, albeit in different markets (short haul as opposed to long haul).

I don’t get your point about “poor old BA can’t even bus the English squad to Brazil”. Why is it BAs issue to deal with, they are a commercial business not a charity. In an case I’m sure they would be happy to transport the team on a paid for basis.

[stevescoots]

I have to agree, its service where EU fall down, but then thats not just airlines its every walk of life. If costs need to be saved cut service levels first to save cost. all short sighted. If I cut my customer service to improve profits then my customers would walk.

2 examples:

Cathay: yesterday flew CAN-HKG-LHR. flight was late into HKG. waiting at the gate were 5 Cathay girls who then scooped up late passengers to several flights and actually ran with us, strait through transit security to the gate, this for business and economy. bags arrived in london

BA last trip BRU-LHR-HKG. BRU flight late getting to gate. no-one from BA to meet us, had to run, no-one to help through security just had to force way to front much to the annoyance of other passengers. made the flight, bags did not!

QR, needed to change a flight in business restricted. not problem to do and cost £100. changed 2 hours before departure.

BA, tried to change 2 weeks before departure on their restricted ticket, can change but would be £1600 for 2 of us (800 each) on their restricted terms. I ended up doing a no show and buying a new one way with another airline.

That’s not BA bashing, I have just based on the 3 main carriers I have used this year more than 3 times long haul on each.

[rferguson]

MajiAlayed….many of your comments are valid but if your scratch beneath the surface of the operating environments of say Emirates or Singapore Airlines and BA or Lufthansa you may see why things are the way they are.

Lets take for example a customer facing employee who is consistently rude to passengers. What would happen if s/he worked for EK or SQ? S/he would be sacked in an instant and sent packing….no unions to deal with. No process of going through the motions of trying to dismiss an employee without being brought in front of an industrial tribunal for unfair dismissal. So in other words, an endless amount of ‘warnings’.

Now let’s look at the governments. Both the UAE governments and Singapore governments are extremely pro-aviation. Their hubs operate 24/7 allowing their national airlines to fine tune their schedules and ensuring their aircraft are in the sky for the maximum amount of time generating revenue. I can imagine what the Sheiks reply would be to Dubai residents complaining of aircraft noise. In the UK it is a political football. Thus, the aircraft of many of the big european airlines are spending oodles of time on the ground instead of in the air to circumvent noise restrictions and night closures at their home hubs.

Add to that the other expenses that airlines in the western world need to deal with that those in the middle/far east don’t – pension contributions for example.

All this comes at a cost. I’m sure the european airlines would love to dismiss employees on a whim and not contribute to pension pots and fly from airports that work around the clock without noise restrictions.

One thing I do disagree with though is the ‘lack of direct and proper communication’ from the airlines. In fact based on my own experience and those of some of my passengers it seems that this is the weak spot of several of the middle eastern carriers – the inability to deal with issues when they go wrong. Or the refusal to communicate at all post flight. While most will say they DO offer a very superior experience in the air i’ve experienced some very poor ‘service recovery’ from a certain ‘five star’ mid east airline.

[FormerlyDoS]

RFerguson

Accepting what you say about different employment regimes, why shouldn’t globalization take care of the players with higher cost bases, as it has done in the manufacturing sector?

If you look at the penetration of the UK and EU markets by EK, I think it is starting and I fear for the future of the EU legacy carriers.

[canucklad]

Hi SimonS1
The last comment was made in jest and a reference to another topic earlier on in the week.

My point is, that Etihad can afford to fund a mega rich football club. And there are some of us who believe that the way Man City is funded circumnavigates new UEFA rules on wages to income ratio!

Emirates almost single handily funding EADS ,also manage to chuck money at all matter of things all over the globe!

How , can an airline afford to do it ?

And as I’ve mentioned its Etihad and Qatar as well as Emirates……IMO the combined projected growth is optimistic to say the least and probably unsustainable. Its not if the ME hub bubble bursts more when ?

rferguson….another great point about the differences that we all, already know, but sadly put up with because the European airlines are focussing on the bottom line and equating it to cheap rather than customer service and quality.,

[AnthonyDunn]

@ SimonS1 – 20/12/2013 10:48 GMT

That hoary old chestnut.

Yes, I have FULL evidence to support my assertion. Alas and alack, the priority of issues around a doubly incontinent, deaf and wholly immobile 95-year old mother-in-law have taken first call of late. Were you in the A&E department of the Royal Free Hospital in Hampstead this last Monday until 03:00 on Tuesday morning? I don’t think so.

My response will demonstrate that you talk the talk but you cannot walk the walk: the facts do not support your contention whereas they do support mine.

[BA4ever]

FormerlyDos, I didn’t base any reply on facts, neither I said that airlines with long histories have better safety records.
What I said was that we can’t compare the safety records of new airlines to those of old ones. They are not the same, hence they are not comparable.

Rferguson, your reply mentions things that many passengers don’t know. thank you for taking the time for this small analysis.

[FormerlyDoS]

BA4ever

May I refer you to

Biztraveller74 – 20/12/2013 10:07 GMT

A safety history is only meaningful under comparative conditions and the accident rate has changed so much since the 1960s/70s as to render comparison before meaningless, due to better equipment and a lot of lessons learned by the airlines (most of whom do it very well and are world class in continuous improvement.)

EK (for instance) started flying in 1985, as did Ryanair.

That gives a 28 year track record for two of the safest airlines in the world, neither of whom have lost a passenger (although both have had serious incidents.)

That is ample to compare with other airlines, try doing a comparison with Air France, for example. During the same period, BA had one hull loss (as did Ryanair) and no loss of lives. Both crashes were caused by factors beyond the control of the crew and were handled very well.

I feel as safe on Emirates, as I do on BA. You may feel differently and I respect your right to do so.

[NameRemoved-18/12/14]

I am so happy you have joined the Forum BA4ever. Your posts will stay in my memory for years to come xo

[Raffles99]

Highly unlikely the Middle East bubble will burst. Etihad is doing 80 per cent transfer business on its regional UK flights – the success has nothing to do with the success, or not, of the Middle East as a tourist destination.

[FormerlyDoS]

Raffles99

I agree. And I was one of the 80% last week, connecting via MAN. Could have chosen LHR, but it’s too much hassle. Reason was return from a business trip.

[BA4ever]

Alexpo1, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[NameRemoved-18/12/14]

6*

[PegasusAir]

SimonS1 – EK do leave aircraft on the ground all day. In MRU for example an A380 is there from 0940 to 1820 and a B777 also sits from 1645 to 2300 both daily so as to hit the hub times in DXB.

[SimonS1]

Indeed PegasusAir that is true, however I suspect if looked across the fleet we would find higher utilisation for the ME carriers.

[Author]

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