[tonywells1961]

I have had 2 cancelled flights this week to FNC (weather related) with both Easyjet and Ryanair. Both airlines promptly offered refunds or free change of flight. No quibble.

I have a flight booked with BA in October and they have changed the return flight by a day which is not convenient so I requested cancellation.

BA will now only refund the taxes and fees as I asked for the booking to be cancelled – they acknowledge that they cancelled the flight but I cancelled the booking so it’s my fault.

It may be within their T’S & C’s but what a shoddy way to treat your customers.

I understand the situations are different but a significant different in approach between the “budget” airlines and a supposed premium brand.

[MarkCymru]

As far as I know, BA considers a change of under two hours to be “minor”; anything river that is “significant” and triggers an automatic right to a refund. Write, pointing out that you have this legal right and saying that if you do not receive compensation within seven days, you will refer them to the arbitration body that they have accepted (CEDR). This referral costs them money so they will want to avoid it. From what you’ve said, the arbitrator seems almost guaranteed to rule in your favour.

Sadly, my recent experience with BA is that they’ll bluff until you show you know your rights. Then, they’ll escalate and give in

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ASK1945

[Clay']

Sorry to say but it’s yourself who caused the situation you find yourself in by cancelling the booking.

If they have cancelled the flight then they need to get you home and have a legal obligation to do so. You have the right to refuse their alternative suggestion and you can envoke your ‘right to alternate carrier’ so long as the alternative you propose is deemed reasonable.

Last year BA cut daily flights between LHR & MUN. They offered a place on the morning flight (mine was late evening) but that wouldn’t work due to having things to do throughout that day. They then offered the next morning but as we were still a few months out said they wouldn’t pay hotel costs. Having reached the point where no BA flights were acceptable to me I asked them to keep the booking as it currently stood and I would call them back later that day. I did and gave them the LH flight number along with the data that I knew there were business seats open on the flight. The agent literally rebooked me onto the LH MUN-LHR and reissued tickets via email whilst I was on the phone.

If you opted to cancel the booking then it is you who terminated the contract. They were in breach of it but were trying to work with you to find a solution so by choosing to cancel you shifted the blame and liability from them to yourself.

Based on the information you’ve given then they’re in the right and would likely challenge any claim or arbitration attempt. Of course if there’s more to the situation then that may change but I can only go off what you’ve said.

[FDOS]

I have reported the previous post, as it is factually incorrect and misleading.

EC261 states

Article 6
Delay
1. When an operating air carrier reasonably expects a flight to be delayed beyond its scheduled time of departure:
(a) for two hours or more in the case of flights of 1500 kilometres or less; or
(b) for three hours or more in the case of all intra-Community flights of more than 1500 kilometres and of all other flights between 1500 and 3500 kilometres; or
(c) for four hours or more in the case of all flights not falling under (a) or (b),
passengers shall be offered by the operating air carrier:
(i) the assistance specified in Article 9(1)(a) and 9(2); and
(ii) when the reasonably expected time of departure is at least the day after the time of departure previously announced, the assistance specified in Article 9(1)(b) and 9(1)(c); and
(iii) when the delay is at least five hours, the assistance specified in Article 8(1)(a).

(iii) is the relevant part and reimbursement is a choice you could make.

Article 8
Right to reimbursement or re-routing
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between:
(a) – reimbursement within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was bought, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger’s original travel plan, together with, when relevant,
– a return flight to the first point of departure, at the earliest opportunity;
(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or
(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger’s convenience, subject to availability of seats.

@TonyWells1961, this looks like a reference to CEDR, IMO. SHould be open and shut.

[drykl]

It’s amazing how everyone can be correct, and yet create more ambiguity.

Here’s a simple summary:
1. This is known as a ‘schedule change’
2. The customer is entitled to an alternative re-routing, or a full refund if no satisfactory alternative is given.

The ambiguity here is possibly because the customer cancelled the booking themselves, rather than declining the re-routing and asking for refund at that point?

I have had similar ‘schedule change’ emails from BA where I was very careful to decline the change and then request refund. I don’t want to be the one cancelling.

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cwoodward

[FDOS]

[postquote quote=1360651]

Another incorrect post, reported for inappropriate content (incorrect speculation). I wish people would read the EC/EU261 Regulation, which is the definitive document, there is no ambiguity here.

“The customer is entitled to an alternative re-routing, or a full refund if no satisfactory alternative is given”.

Not correct. WHat I find amazing is that the EC/UK261 Regulations are freely available and easy to read.

Article 6ciii

“(iii) when the delay is at least five hours, the assistance specified in Article 8(1)(a). ”

Article 8(1)a

“1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between:
(a) – reimbursement within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was bought, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger’s original travel plan, together with, when relevant,
– a return flight to the first point of departure, at the earliest opportunity.

The ambiguity here is possibly because the customer cancelled the booking themselves, rather than declining the re-routing and asking for refund at that point?”

No, Article 8(1) and Article 15 clearly cover this. The airline should have offered the choice of a refund without the customer asking and cannot rely on it’s T&Cs to refund only taxes.

Article 15

Exclusion of waiver

1. Obligations vis-à-vis passengers pursuant to this Regulation may not be limited or waived, notably by a
derogation or restrictive clause in the contract of carriage.
2. If, nevertheless, such a derogation or restrictive clause is applied in respect of a passenger, or if the
passenger is not correctly informed of his rights and for that reason has accepted compensation which is
inferior to that provided for in this Regulation, the passenger shall still be entitled to take the necessary
proceedings before the competent courts or bodies in order to obtain additional compensation.

[tonywells1961]

Thank you all for your input.
I am going back to BA but will probably just get another patronising refusal from their “customer services” team.

[FDOS]

[postquote quote=1360742]

Don’t waste your time arguing with them, I have a few scalps where their ‘customer service’ team were adamant that they were right and I was wrong, which were found in my favour.

I would advise just asking them if their decision will change (a deadlock email) and assuming it will not, then submit a case to CEDR (look up CEDR Aviation DIsputes on Google, as BT are slow moderating posts with links), which is easy and carries very little, if any, risk for you. After 8 weeks, you can file without a deadlock email.

Best of luck, if you need any help with the CEDR process, feel free to add to this thread.

[FDOS]

[postquote quote=1360742]

Don’t waste your time arguing with them, I have a few scalps where their ‘customer service’ team were adamant that they were right and I was wrong, which were found in my favour.

I would advise just asking them if their decision will change and then submit a case to CEDR “https://www dot cedr dot com/consumer/aviation/”, which is easy and carries very little, if any, risk for you.

[tonywells1961]

Thank you all – BA are sticking with the decision so off to the CEDR.

[FDOS]

@tonywells1961 – best of luck. I am not a lawyer, but having been through CEDR in the past, I would expect them to rule in your favour, given the facts you describe.

Expect verbosity from BA 😉

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tonywells1961

[drykl]

Oh dear. I guess FDOS should direct all criticisms at the CAA since my ‘incorrect speculation’ only arose after I had dutifully studied CAA advice.

https://www.caa.co.uk/passengers/before-you-fly/making-a-booking/tickets-fares-and-schedule-changes/

What changes can an airline make to my flight?
Where an airline has made a change to your flight (the flight time for example) it is known as a schedule change. This is not the same as cancelling flights. Schedule changes should always be notified to passengers at least 14 days in advance, and the change should only be to the time or the date and not the flight number.
Airlines typically advise in their terms and conditions that the time of the flight does not form part of the contract and that it may be subject to change.

What can I do if the time is significantly altered, and the new time does not work for me?

What is a significant change? This has not been defined in any legislation or court of law and may vary from case to case. However, if the change is significant to you but does not fall within the airline’s definition, we suggest that you advise the airline why the change is significant.
If the airline changes your flight time significantly, you may be entitled to a refund or a more suitable alternative. In many cases airline terms and conditions set out this right, but even if they do not you can still request it.

[FDOS]

[postquote quote=1360739]

FYI, the CAA’s perspectives are not the law and Regulation EU/UK261 is the legislation the Courts (and ADR bodies) rely on to reach their decisions.

Your inability to understand the difference resulted in the incorrect speculation you published which really did not assist the OP.

[drykl]

Oh wow! I love a forum where even the CAA are judged to be giving advice that falls foul of the legal regulations of EU/UK261??!!

The only points I made, and have to make again are:
1. This is a schedule change
2. The passenger was notified >2 weeks prior to departure date
3. The passenger should be offered options of alternative travel arrangements or a full refund.

It’s not just about spouting the regulations, it is about identifying finer aspects of which regulation applies to which situation.

[FDOS]

“Oh wow! I love a forum where even the CAA are judged to be giving advice that falls foul of the legal regulations of EU/UK261??!!”

The regulation the Courts and ADR organisations use in making determinations is EC/UK261. CAA advice is not law.

“The only points I made, and have to make again are:
1. This is a schedule change
2. The passenger was notified >2 weeks prior to departure date
3. The passenger should be offered options of alternative travel arrangements or a full refund.”

1 – irrelevant
2 – irrelevant
3 – Correct, but not what you said in you first post – ” The customer is entitled to an alternative re-routing, or a full refund if no satisfactory alternative is given.” This is incorrect, both reimbursement AND a re-routing should be offered there is no condition, as you incorrectly stated.

“It’s not just about spouting the regulations, it is about identifying finer aspects of which regulation applies to which situation.”

Which I did. EC/UK261, Article 6, 8 and 15.

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cwoodward

[Author]

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