[BigDog.]

Suggest you read the thread thoroughly Xuluman.

The OP, a pilot contended.. I have seen a gradual decline in the role and status of the pilot over the past 15 years. There are three main causes to the downward pressure on pilots’ remuneration: low cost airlines, flight deck automation and the large numbers of unemployed entry level pilots.

Pilots I have spoken with (also nearly all posters on this thread) agree with this contention. It is clear that Ryanair and easyJet have been a game changer which sooner or later will require the legacy carrier pilots – especially within AF, to adapt to (both in monetarily and their terms & conditions) or take their company down.

You noted the difference between your pay/pension/hours and your father’s which endorses the OP view. I understand it may be a sensitive issue however it is best to be realistic/objective without the angst.

[Xuluman]

Suggest you read the post I clearly replied to.

[Charles-P]

‘Xuluman’ – Not sure why all the aggression and vitriol there.

I have stated here what I know based on my current role as the CEO of an aviation consultancy organisation that works with many major airlines and most of the global ANSP groups. Before that I was a military pilot with just over a thousand hours of flight experience.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to share with us your credentials and experience ?

[Xuluman]

Yeah I’m not contesting that (In your current edited version). I agree.

My post was addressing the other aspects hinted repeatedly throughout the thread, and the forum, lauded by people such as yourself.

Whilst I have managed to escape the worst of it, and you can’t hope to change my contract – you can imagine the frustration of reading the same diatribe over and over from people who don’t know any better.

In that respect, I’d suggest my post is wholly relevant to the discussion, especially given that I am the only one here who is a commercial pilot.

So if you’d like to respond to the points raised by myself, with your vast experience, Air League, or Wikipedia links, I’d be happy to read them.

Otherwise it’s just petty arguing.

Charles if you think a willy waving contest is somehow substitute for debate and opinion then that says a lot. Perhaps speculating that Ryanair pilots taxi around at speed to make slots, causing collisions is not admirable given your background. You should definitely know better.

[Charles-P]

“Perhaps you would be so kind as to share with us your credentials and experience ?” – Clearly you don’t.

I think you will find in time that the realities of the aviation sector are considerably more complex than the rather restricted view afforded from the cockpit.

Perhaps you would prefer a gentleman’s bet to show your faith in your views ? I am prepared to bet a single pilot commercial flight with paying passengers takes place within four years and will put down $100 to back that up which I will happily send to BT as the holding bookie – are you game ?

[canucklad]

As Tomin Scotland stated, a very interesting and provocative topic LP
I’m not going to speculate about the future, just comment on what I know.

1) I’ve 2 friends, Friend A fly’s with EZ and is overworked de-motivated and challenged to be even more productive than the month before, and so his salary compared to work done = being very underpaid. Easyjet to me sounds like a very unpleasant place to work!! …… when I mention moving, his only option due to high turnover would be FR…..As he describes it, Why jump out the frying pan….Is he looking for a new job YES ———Friend 2 fly’s with CX and is well paid, with excellent benefits, and is happy at is work and from a productivity factot point of view probably more than he’s worth. Is he wanting to leave CX anytime soon…NO
2) My CX pal went through rigorous training and examinations to get his Captains wings, apparently its much easier to climb the ranks at EZ.
3) The CEO argument is irrelevant, most CEO’s are vastly overpaid compared to their actual contribution to a business, especially when you compare tenure and pay off agreements. I’m minded of the old NASA story of the janitor mistaken for a technician who, when asked by a Senator what he did at NASA , replied “ I help send people to the moon” …..The scale of pay needs to be re-balanced to better reflect the involvement of all in an organization. MY CEO doesn’t work 100 times harder than I, and yet I ,along with my colleagues are just 1 mistake away from creating chaos for my company, but on a day to day basis make decisions that positively impact our success.

Coming full circle and back to the topic of pilots future, some of us, might remember that buses once had conductors and drivers were seen as “commanders” of their vehicle……. Now : )

[MrMichael]

Well well, what a can of worms. We really should try to respect others views rather than being angry.

How I see it is this. An a320 captain on a legacy carrier is paid about thirty percent more than his counterpart at a LoCo. Forget time away money and other things, just the base salary. In the main the LoCo skipper will work more annual hours than the legacy carrier skipper will. So to operate the legacy carrier flight is more expensive than the LoCo just in hourly pay on the flight deck. Is that sustainable, I don’t think it is, the skill/training etc is identical of a level playing field, ie an UK airline.

To say we will not have Indian/Chinese captains in the future flying UK planes is in my view not correct, look at ships now flying the red duster, flag of convenience for ships hardly necessary anymore. Merchant officers in the seventies never dreamt of what they now see. With Airlines we already have Norwegian in to the USA as a flag of convenience operator, but in time the flag will not matter in relation to who actually flies the metal.

I have said my piece, I have not degenerated any pilots, indeed a friend of mine is an FO on Monarch. He works hard, is living his dream, but left my industry to fly knowing financially it made no sense, but he is doing exactly what he wants to do, and that to me is as important as the salary.

[Charles-P]

‘MrMichael’ you make good points. I am aware of at least two major European airlines actively recruiting outside of the EU via an agent precisely because they can cut the wage bill that way. The analogy you draw with shipping is a good one, nobody in the Merchant Navy thought it would happen indeed there were some unpleasant racist comments in the 1980’s along the lines of “Asians are not clever enough to be ship masters”. How the world has changed.

The change from four, then three to two person crews were were told would “never happen” – it did.

The FAA has already approved limited single person operation of small jets when carrying fare paying passengers, the move to short haul single pilot is inevitable and some will still be saying it will not happen as the 737 rolls down the runway.

[canucklad]

As I’ve predicted elsewhere on the forum,
If I was Willie Walsh the next cost cutting measure by the big players I’d propose would be as follows
The creation of Megacarriers under the above stated “ Flags of Convenience” . The business model could look something like this……

NAME: OneWorld Airlines
FLEET: Comprises of leased along haul aircraft from AA-BA-CX-IB – QF- etc…..
HEADQUARTERS: A tax haven with 3rd world Wage/ T&C’s conditions. Possibly Colombo
HUB Airports: LHR- HKG- SYD- DFW- ORD etc.
COMPETION: Star Airlines & Skyteam Airways.
HOW IT WORKS: Majority of inter hub Long haul services run by subsidiary OW airlines with newer low cost base . Onward domestic/short haul flights operated by legacy branded carriers with mixed fleet crew T&C’s .
SET UP…..Existing member airlines close down long haul operations and lease aircraft to new start up, owned jointly by all the existing national carriers, The advantage of this is the legacy carriers create a new method of guaranteed c ash flow.
ADVANTAGES…. Saving on pension contribution, maintenance costs, which can now be sub contracted out. Shared marketing, no need to worry about completion. Etc, etc…

[BigDog.]

MrMichael – 07/10/2014 19:49 GMT

…Well well, what a can of worms. We really should try to respect others views rather than being angry.

+1

Xuluman- 07/10/2014 10:01 GMT

…Do you understand that a young man today choosing to be a tube driver will make more money than a Pilot? Where is the public ranting about tube driver salaries??…

Can you please evidence that statement. Interestingly the BBC article below although mainly focusing on the new design of tube train it also states that they have the “capacity” to be driverless. Imo as already with the DLR, the tube will be driverless within 5-10 years so no longer much of a career.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-29520761

“A spokesman for Transport for London (TfL) said no driver would lose their job, adding that if a decision was made to go driverless it would be phased in”

… Young pilots now fund their own training at vast personal expense which already questions the viability of the career….

You forgot to mention that unlike university studies, commercial Pilot training is fully tax deductible. So as long as they work, their income initially will be tax free until the cost of training is recouped.

Finally, part of being elite is scarcity. Am sure you will agree that as air travel numbers have risen near exponentially, so has the number of commercial pilots (and indeed PPL). Similar to climbing Everest, in 2010 there were over 5,000 successful ascents with 164 on a single day alone – so although still an admirable achievement, it is not as exclusive as it once was.

We all need to adapt to change. I hope for the sake of AF, their legacy pilots understand that.

[MrMichael]

The problem BigDog is the AF pilots, and perhaps the LH ones too do not realise it, or if they do realise then they want to fight it anyway like the UK miners in the 1980’s. Your absoluty right too about the sheer number of pilots, Ryanair alone I read recently (wish I could remember where) has more pilots than all UK/Ireland/France airlines combined in 1980, 4000 of them. An airline I might add some people still see as a joke.

If pilots worry that train drivers earn more than they do, I understand Midland Trains have a number of vacancys for people of the right caliber. I have a very good friend that is an Archeologist, he spent 7 years at university and now heads the Archeology department for a well known oil company, he earns the princely sum of £19,400 per annum, (less than some technical people he manages) even with the entitled title of Dr. End of the day people have choices, and people will get paid as little as the employers can still operate the business effectively. If too many people want to be pilots and get the training, pilots will be cheap, if pilots are in short supply, they will become more expensive. Supply and demand, something AF pilots fail to understand, ultimately and in the future possibly to their peril. It is not even as if AF pilots can boast of an impeccable safety record, unlike the poor sods at Ryanair.

[canucklad]

Stumbled across a documentary the other day that intimated that airlines are comprising safety because of the pressures to fill seats.
They cited that low paid, and by association, lack of experienced pilots were rapidly being hired and promoted through the ranks without necessarily going through the rigorous psychometric testing at the recruitment stage. If they had the required ratings then that was good enough.

The programme intimated that the highest risk area was the good ol’ US of A. Specifically flying on a franchised commuter flight. Low paid-over worked crew with little experience (often just out of flight school) in full skies and pressurised to deliver results = “It’s just a matter of time”
It also mentioned the Crossair captain who should have been removed from duty for incompetence, including retracting the undercarriage whilst taxing, who was allowed to fly, until he flew into a hillside at Zurich.
So I suppose you get what you pay for……

Then again you look at AF447 and you could argue against my point.
If it was me, I’d ensure pilots are paid well, without getting to the stage of being super rich. A Ryanair pilot should be paid more and a BA pilot less.

One could argue that generally in the UK, wealth needs to be distributed more evenly, based on skill and worth to the community/society rather than perceived position….The old nurse’s versus city speculators argument.

[MrMichael]

I think it is more than just AF477 Canucklad, every recent mishap on an AF flight (bar Concorde) was down to pilot error. That’s why I find it so surprising it is AF pilots shouting the loudest about their pay and status. So add to AF477, AF358 and AF296. A shocking record, and even The Concode tragedy was partially down to AF maintenance ignoring an advisory from Airbus. If it was not a European Airline it would probably be banned from Europe!

[MarcusGB]

As a former shareholder of KLM / AF,( having sold them prior to them being halved in the last 6 weeks!), and being partnered with KLM, I am sure there are also a lot of angry shareholders of the AF / KLM group.

KLM as most on here, would agree are a good sustainable Airline, and have made great team based efforts to be as efficient and Airline as possible, without cutting too much into the Passengers experience with them. I strongly admire them and the way they manage the Airline, often referred to (again by the CEO in their 95 year Oldest Airline Magazine), as more of a family. With that comes responsibility and some democracy, and ideas and innovations that other European Airlines come no where near to.

KLM is profitable, and is now being dragged down by Air France, ironic, as when they were bought up by AF some 10/11 yrs ago, it was the other way round. Can you imagine how KLM staff feel about AF staff, knowing their shares have halved (about 7% owned by staff), and the way they have been so frankly selfish to the whole group?
This year they would have entered profitability as a joint Company, this has now been ruined.

Then, the 2015 plan has been scuppered, the realistic expansion of Transavia put to one side, and for those who do not know, KLM has plans to enter all European flights into the City Hopper model also, within 5 years.

Frankly i was shocked to see in the Times, on Reuters etc, where AF pilots were earning 250,000 – 300,000 Euros a year!

I take into account all the above comments each valid in their input, but the other point i would wish to make is for this AF/KLM group especially, this protest has ruined their standing for entering into profit this year, with years of careful slow increased efficiency, fought for by many KLM staff.

I really wish KLM could divide itself from AF and stand alone again,as this time it would be AF falling out of the market. I feel very sorry for the hard working staff and shareholders, in what is a very volatile Market, where many other new Airlines, far more efficient will take business from them overnight.

Not only Low Cost Airlines in Europe that are now running between main airports in Europe, but other Airlines such as Etihad, Emirates, etc,who are striving forwards, expanding, profitable, and able to snatch long haul sectors easily also.

They cannot squeeze the customers / passengers in Europe any more, with charges, or less space, less facilities or abolishing what they serve on board. The Government taxes in the UK and the Airport charges make a fair slice of our actual overall ticket price. The fuel subsidy even when oil prices are at a low, which Airline will be first to reduce the fuel surcharge to us?

I would like to see which one is first, if any…?

I cannot see where Airlines like AF, LH, BA, can turn now to cut costs any more, but to the behind the times working conditions in some cases, of their staff, and the age and efficiency of their aircraft.

They seem to have scraped all their is out of us, and of the pleasure of flying, and we are down to the bone. The Frequent flyer benefits have decreased, less miles, more to redeem, we have paid this way also.

They now have to look inwards, and cut costs internally with personnel. I never see staff at Schiphol hanging around sitting down doing nothing, creating a poor public perception, yet i see attitude, poor service, and a lot of frankly lazy, cannot be bothered staff at CDG every time i fly AF, and go through CDG.
This is where someone needs to take a good hard look and focus on attitudes and conduct that would not be tolerated in most of our every day Work, in the wide range of BT travellers occupations.

[BigDog.]

I fully concur MarcusGB.

Although Andy Street, the boss at John Lewis retracted and apologised about his “tongue in cheek” reference to France, imo although maybe a tad overly candid, his statement was bang on…

“France is sclerotic, hopeless and downbeat … it’s finished…I have never been to a country more ill at ease … nothing works and nobody cares about it.”…end

The AF Pilots are merely reflecting the problem with sclerotic France where even the French companies wishing to excel are seeking to move chunks of their business off-shore.

The sense of entitlement runs deep and long within the French elitist culture and I understand AF/KLM is still nearly 20% state owned. Great pity AF could take KLM down with it as I see no backing down by their pilots wrt cost cutting and loco subsidiary.

The industry has transitioned through its Heroic and Golden ages and is now firmly in the utilitarian age with no return. Those luddites wishing to preserve the Frank Abagnale Jr fawning Golden days will end up strangling the company.

While if TTIP comes to pass then protectionist France may well become the next EU basket case.

Now if BA had merged with KLM instead of the IB money pit that would certainly have been a force within aviation.

[Author]

Posts