[christopheL]

Capetonianm, you should considere the hypothesis that you do not have the Absolute Truth and that other people may think differently than you do.

2 users thanked author for this post.

DavidArnold, Paul

[capetonianm]

Christophe:

There is no absolute truth.

Your facile and vacuous arguments remind me of why I detested working with the French. By far the worst of about 100 nationalities I have worked with all over the world.

I trust you know what ‘facile’ means in English. It is a ‘faux ami’ and not the same as in French.

[christopheL]

If there is no absolute truth then I can’t understand why it is so painful for you to admit that some people may disagree with you.
I don’t mind you political ideas and I would like you to to consider that a business travel forum is not the right place for political speaches. There are many other forums for this kind of debates.
My gentil and vacuous argument is that I find it really inappropriate that you always need to put forward your political ideas on a forum which is business travel focused and that your only answer to anyone who disagrees with you is to denigrate him and the group of people he belongs to (and please do not answer that you did not denigrate French people in your last post).

3 users thanked author for this post.

Paul, CathayLoyalist2, DavidArnold

[Swissdiver]

[quote quote=877324]Another reality wich is not politicaly correct is that all the countries which this immigrants are coming from have been governed by some kinds of potentates who were able to governe their country with the financial, military and political aid coming from countries and private companies who just wanted to make some money in a short time. We got the money and I’m afraid we now have to give some change.

This is an exemple of what we, French, did (i.e financed) for the leader of Central African Republic which is has always been one of the poorest country in the world :

http://www.ina.fr/video/CAB77019037/

We were (and are) not the only ones to do this kind of things.[/quote]

While France, the UK and other countries plundered Africa during decades, there way out was somewhat different. The UK opted for the Commonwealth approach while the “France-Afrique” was mostly aimed at avoiding any development in Africa to encourage these countries to continue buying French products, and using the Franc CFA as an economical leash (this is the French speaking Africa’s view). So European countries profited from dictatorships at different level as it helped their economies and geopolitical position during the cold war.

But is it a reason to accept an uncontrolled immigration? I don’t think so, not only for Europe, but also for Africa. The only way, in my view, is to help these countries in their local development so they become attractive to their young generation. This is at least Switzerland’s approach: https://www.eda.admin.ch/deza/en/home.html. And for the record, the last country we tempted to invade was Lombardia in 1515 (didn’t work!). So this is not a redemption approach…

[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=877433]But is it a reason to accept an uncontrolled immigration? I don’t think so, not only for Europe, but also for Africa. The only way, in my view, is to help these countries in their local development so they become attractive to their young generation. This is at least Switzerland’s approach: https://www.eda.admin.ch/deza/en/home.html. And for the record, the last country we tempted to invade was Lombardia in 1515 (didn’t work!). So this is not a redemption approach…[/quote]

Very well said, Swissdiver.

[canucklad]

I’m going to try and bring this back on topic ……

Regardless of what drain pipe these “Hotel Rats” appear from and scurry back to what advice apart from the obvious can we share to combat these criminal gangs ?

I’d start with , not travelling with high end , easily sellable stuff in the first place.
And if you are in the privileged position to shop in Paris’s more opulent boutiques, do your shopping on the last day.

And Martyn, sorry but I can’ resist a bit of “encouragement” as you called it …..
Europe , including Russia and I’ll add in the US have only themselves to blame.
As Swissdiver and christopheL so eloquently DIDN’T say ….Here in the West we’re now reaping what we sowed.

And sadly, I watch CNN’s inside Africa ( A business travellers programme) , and just wonder why the gloss of hope and opportunity is inevitably ruined by global corporate greed. Something we should all consider when we get into emotive non PC discussions on this forum.

On a bit of a side point ….. if the Paris police and hotels are saying they have a problem, and excuse the pun, a problem that’s spreading akin to the bubonic plaque ( Rat Metaphor) how will travel insurance companies react ?

Finally, if the hotels know that there is a problem with the rooms no longer being secure, surely they need to take responsibility and create a secure patrolled space within their premises, similar to a bank vault.

[MartynSinclair]

If I could add one very relevant tip about hotel security (Paris and other places). Do not assume all hotel room doors are self closing. Even when in a hurry, check the door has closed securely. Sounds a stupid and obvious tip, but you could be surprised….

[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=877455]If I could add one very relevant tip about hotel security (Paris and other places). Do not assume all hotel room doors are self closing. Even when in a hurry, check the door has closed securely. Sounds a stupid and obvious tip, but you could be surprised….[/quote]

It does not sound stupid – the last time I stayed at the Address in Dubai Marina (top end 5*), I came back to my room to find it was slightly ajar and I reported it before entering, with the hotel security manager.

Nothing was wrong, but the self closing mechanism was slightly weak and the manager hypothesised that the cleaning staff had left it to swing shut, but the weak mechanism cause it to fail.

So a very good point, Martyn.

[christopheL]

Swissdiver,
I fully agree with the second part of your post and as far as I know the official EU’s approach is exactly the same as the Swistzerland one. Now we just need to combine our speeches and our practices. Words fly away, practices remain !

[capetonianm]

a devastating report reveals 300,000 illegal migrants are living in one French suburb.
The area in question is called Saint-Denis in the north-east of the city, where the Basilica holds the resting places of many French kings and queens.
Recently, it was reported that this sprawling district now holds as many as 300,000 illegal immigrants, many of whom rely on crime or the ‘black economy’ to make money. The official legal population in Saint-Denis is estimated at 1.5 million.

A woman was surrounded as she opened a huge bag full of phones, shoes, sunglasses and handbags — clearly stolen from tourists or Parisians. The goods were quickly sold and the crowd melted away.

Police have reportedly admitted the area is a ‘no-go’ zone, and will only drive through the areas armed and four to a vehicle.

I make no further comment, other than as below, as none is necessary, and if I do so I will be accused of ‘making a political speech’.

St Denis is very close to the Stade de France and I walked round there late one afternoon a year or so ago whilst waiting for a friend who was at a rugby match there, and oddly enough felt perfectly safe.

[christopheL]

Just 2 points regarding your last post

I may be wrong but it seems that the piece of news you are focusing on is an abstract of the following dailymail article which was published 3 days ago.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6001135/A-devastating-report-reveals-300-000-illegal-migrants-living-one-French-suburb.html

Just to let you know that the so called “devastating report” is a parliamentary report which was published end of May this year to focus on the endless problematic situation of Seine Saint Denis which is one of the 95 Mainland French “departements” and is located between CDG airport and Paris.

Even if this parliamentary is not at all focusing on illegal immigration you should take some time to read it.

http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/15/pdf/rap-info/i1014.pdf (in French only but I know you can understand a bit of French)

You will be able to understand what the real (huge) problems of Seine Saint Denis are and why these problems have been the same for the few last decades despite the huge amount a public money which as been invested in inefficient public policies. Illegal immigration is far from being their main cause…

You also will realize that all the pieces of information which are said coming from the report are the result of the “free interpretation” of the author but can’t be find in the report. But is it a real surprise as far as a Daily Mail article is concerned ?

[capetonianm]

Thanks Christophe, it is from a DM article, you are correct, I forgot to quote the source and put the URL.

I’m not sure that my French is up to reading 73 pages of what is not exactly bedtime reading. I have a longish train journey later this week which may be a good time to read it.

Having glanced through it, it appears that the main problem is lack of education and consequent lack of opportunity for young people. A global problem.

There is quite a telling paragraph here regarding illegals, which is what I would call ‘étrangers en situation irrégulière’. Others may define that differently.

Sur le flot d’entrants figurent des personnes désireuses de demeurer en France mais ne disposant pas des titres
de séjours les y autorisant. S’ils ne figurent pas dans les statistiques officielles, ces hommes, femmes et enfants sont une réalité démographique avec laquelle les pouvoirs publics doivent compter.
Or, ces derniers n’arrivent pas à les dénombrer. Selon les estimations des interlocuteurs rencontrés par les rapporteurs, ces personnes en situation irrégulière seraient entre 150 000, 250 000 personnes, voire 400 000. Soit un ajout supplémentaire équivalent à la population de l’Ariège (152 321 habitants), du Jura (259 000 habitants), voire des Landes (411 757 habitants). La marge est grande.

The Daily Mail report appears to be based on the personal observations of the reporter. Anyone who knows anything about aviation will know how the DM’s reports on incidents diverge from the reality, it’s what sells newspapers.

Merci et bonne journée.

[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=878743]Even if this parliamentary is not at all focusing on illegal immigration you should take some time to read it.[/quote]

TL:DR, but from the extract capetoniam posted, I take away that there are between a small and large city’s worth of people without the correct entitlement to say in France.

They need UKIP to sort this out 🙂

[canucklad]

As a native speaker ChristopheL might be able to correct me if I’ve got this wrong ……sadly my Canadian French is diminishing with each year I grow older : )

The piece highlighted by capetonianm , specifically

“ S’ils ne figurent pas dans les statistiques officielles, ces hommes, femmes et enfants sont une réalité démographique avec laquelle les pouvoirs publics doivent compter.”

reads to me, between the lines anyway as …..

Although local authorities don’t know exactly how many “illegals” there are , they’re contribution to the local economy is significant and reduces the burden on the French state. .

Like capetonianm ,and because of its proximity to the stadium I’ve visited that part of Paris and its bars and cafes..
I also felt reasonably safe , bearing in mind there was always a higher than normal police presence due to the high profile of the event.

I suspect that this group of people are not responsible for the hotel crime this topic is about , simply because they won’t want to risk being identified . at the moment they’ve just blended into their surroundings.

[christopheL]

“The Daily Mail report appears to be based on the personal observations of the reporter. Anyone who knows anything about aviation will know how the DM’s reports on incidents diverge from the reality, it’s what sells newspapers”.

Capetonianm,
I am glad we have the same opinion regarding the Daily Mail. However I find it a shame you use this kind of article to add fuel to the fire regarding a matter which has nothing to do with what you call “aviation” without quoting your source as it means a lot fot this kind of source.

As far as “étrangers en situation irrégulière” (“illegal immigrants”) are concerned, please let me ask you to consider that as a former colonial empire we have always had a lot of people from our former colonies coming to France using a tourist or a student visa (very easy to get) … and staying after their visa had expired. You know what I mean.

Massive immigration from our former colonies started immediately after WW2 when we had to rebuilt France.

As we had to rebuilt France we had no homes for French people and obviously we had no homes for immigrants. After reconstruction began we started to have some homes for French people but still no homes for foregin workers. After reconstruction has almost been completed +/- all French people had a home but … the Algerian independance arised and a few million people arrived in France within a few months. We had to start a new reconstruction program…

You probably never visited “La Defense” (the equivalent of London’s “Canary Warf”) in the 50’th, 60’th and early 70’th before it became the “La Defense” we all know today.

Just have a look at this :

https://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-photo/an-algerian-shantytown-near-nanterre-on-the-outskirts-of-news-photo/613477186?#an-algerian-shantytown-near-nanterre-on-the-outskirts-of-paris-the-picture-id613477186

What is now called “La Defense” used to be the largest “bidonville” (shantytown ?) in France and probably in Europe. This is were we gathered all the north african (mainly algerian) and some european people we needed to work in France during the “30 glorieuses”. A very specific aspect of this immigration is that is occured before, during and after the Algerian war which has been a traumatizing part of both French and Algerian history and makes the relations between France and Algeria so specific.

This economical immigration was favoured by all french governments during this period because we needed workers to support both the reconstruction and the growth of our economy.

Some day we needed this place to build the “La Defense” skyscrapers and therefore all these people were sent elsewhere, mainly in “Seine Saint Denis”. They are still there.

At the beginning only workers were allowed to come to France to give us their work force. As you now know they were living in “bidonvilles” located in the less appealing suburbs such as Nanterre.

In the 70’th Président Giscard d’Estaing and his right wing government (not a socialist one !) lead by Prime Minister Jacques Chirac decided what is known as the “regroupement familial” which allowed all the family members of any foreign worker to get a permanent visa to come to France. This was a time when many of these workers were still leaving in “bidonvilles”. You can imagine what happened when there families arrived …

The immigration you are fighting today is not the same and I am sure you know that most of the new immigrants are willing to migrate to the UK, not to stay in France (I may be wrong but I presume you won’t blame them for that).

That’s why our worst present problems regarding immigration are located in the Calais area ‘(Calais is the main city near the Channel underground) and not in the Paris area so stop basing your speeches against Europe Merkel and so on using the security problems Paris is facing.

Our history is ours, not yours. If you want to discuss about it, please collect some neutral pieces of information before writing anything and be honest in your speech.

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