[AllOverTheGaff]

Ian_from_HKG – 13/06/2013 06:18 GMT

Hi Ian

Firstly, nice to see you back on the forum, whilst I might be relatively new to the BT forum, I find you, along with many others, have a great deal to contribute to this board.

Your points are indeed well made, and that Krug will be all a quiver at the levels of attention he is receiving, I genuinely acknowledge and for what it is worth, 100% agree with you.

My gripe with your post, along with the others who come out to tell those who’ve taken exception to the crap (and I use the word advisedly) he posts to “grow up” / “ignore him” and the other pointed remarks is as follows: Why should the rest of the forum simply put up with his incessant idiocy? Why should the others on the forum, who have a genuine desire to chat in a mature and sensible fashion not be allowed to have their say on what they see as a degradation of the quality of chat and topics.

I don’t know if others miss the point, or if it is just being obtuse, but where / when are you complaining about the endless thread bumping from subjects 3 or 4 years ago? When do you step in and say “enough Krug, you are talking crap”? And to the “just ignore him” brigade, it is nigh on impossible to do so, have you seen his post rate? If you added EVERY single objector over the past week or so together, their post count would be about half of Krugs, and that’s just his own posts, we all know he posts other different guises.

Ian, I try my utmost to ignore him, for the very reasons you state, this forum spends as much time (perhaps more) talking about him and his annoyance as we do chatting about travel. His trolling should be stopped, and it fails me entirely why when we’re preached at to “ignore him” that you, and the others on this and other threads who bitch and moan about some of the participants taking exception to him can’t follow your own advice and simply ignore our “bitching” as you like to call it.

Forums are an exchange of ideas, discussion boards, places to interact, they should not be allowed to be dominated by an expert troll, yet this one is – and has been for a long time – it is this which I find most displeasing and I think I can speak for the majority of those taking exception that they feel the same way.

Regards.
AOTG.

[craigwatson]

Sorry I will have to have my 2 cents worth here as well. The problem is he is one poster, He may post some inane comment, but that is easy to skip over, but then there are 5 or 6 others who will then run with bashing and THAT is what destroys the thread. If you were to just ignore him, he may have 1 out of every 20 or so posts, but as it stands he posts once and then the 5 or 6 of you post about 20 more and completeley take over the thread.

And as an aside we also KNOW that some of you (not all) have multiple persona’s as well.

[SimonRowberry]

Craigwatson +1

AOTG – you may be a new poster and I agree with a lot you say. But the fact is that VK thrives on being the focus of attention. You’re just fuelling the fires.

Regards, Simon

[AllOverTheGaff]

craigwatson – 13/06/2013 11:17 GMT
Sorry I will have to have my 2 cents worth here as well. The problem is he is one poster, He may post some inane comment, but that is easy to skip over, but then there are 5 or 6 others who will then run with bashing and THAT is what destroys the thread.

Hello Craig

I’m not sure if you are deliberately missing the point I make simply to engage in an argument, or if in fact you don’t see what those objecting see, but I am happy to continue from where I left off.

Krugs post rate sits at some 7500 posts. He is indeed one man, nevertheless, he posts more than every single objector combined by a factor of about 2 to 1. So, those who you find more “boring”, “repetitive” etc on this and other threads, if you added our entire post rate up you’d find it comes to around 50% of what Krug posts over the entire forum and not limited to specifically 4 or 5 subjects.

Your assertion that the 4 or 5 objectors “ruin the thread” is only prevalent on around 4 or 5 individual subjects, and subjects that once you’ve seen are not to your liking you can cease reading, as I do with some threads that bore me – the EK 8 across saga from the last time it was brought up (a few months back) was some of the most mind-numbing nonsense I’ve read on here (excluding Krug) so I chose to not read it. If these 4 or 5 threads bother you all so much, and much like you are advising the objectors, simply don’t read it. Ignore it. Move on…etc…etc.

The thing we mostly all agree on is that Krug thrives on attention, which is why he posts the crap he does, that some of us take exception to it is in fact valid, like you are at liberty to complain that you find our holding Krug to account not to your liking, so we are at liberty to complain when we find Krugs crap unpalatable.

That you and other choose to ignore Krugs-Crap I have no issue with, but if you find our objections so bothersome, you should perhaps heed your own profferings.

Regards.
AOTG.

[AllOverTheGaff]

SimonRowberry – 13/06/2013 11:28 GMT
AOTG – you may be a new poster and I agree with a lot you say. But the fact is that VK thrives on being the focus of attention. You’re just fuelling the fires.

Hi Simon

I understand, and accept what you are saying and agree entirely with your comment.

It is just a real shame this situation has been allowed to fester for so long to the detriment of forging an online community.

Regards.
AOTG.

Edited to add: I’ll say no more on the matter…….for the aforementioned reason.

[canucklad]

Hi rferguson…..back on topic

With all the digression going on…sadly (quiet day at the office) I decided to count as follows

rfergusons interesting topic… pg1 19 posts V 2 off topic
pg2 11 posts V 9 off topic
pg3 0 posts V 21 off topic
pg4 3 posts V 17 off topic
pg5 0 posts V 5 off topic

I forgot what I was originally going to post………

You earlier mentioned a UK tour, I’m assuming that means that the 787 might replace some of the 767 rostered services to EDI ?……

And I wonder will PIK get sight of the 380 as it does it’s alternate airport training ?

And, it was also mentioned earlier somewhere, lost in the off topic posts—–yes I know I was responsible for 2 of them ! about the shabbiness of BA’s product and the excuse being the delay to the 787’s & 380’s ……

Surely BA could have spent the late delivery fine payments from both Airbus & Boeing and used them to u/g all their cabins on aircraft that they now couldn’t retire until delivery?

then I might not have had brown gloop dripping on me in C/W !!

[VintageKrug]

I think Boeing paid for some of the 767s to be refurbished; the 747s are otherwise so near to being retired that it isn’t worth refitting with new F.

[Guest_Poster]

AllOverTheGaff – 13/06/2013 11:41 GMT

+1 – very strongly agree.

VintageKrug – 13/06/2013 13:29 GMT

That is more incorrect information.

[rferguson]

Hey Canucklad,

No details other than that the 787 will do a ‘UK tour’ have been released. So not sure whether it will be in the guise of replacing the 767 on random domestic flights or just operating ad hoc for a promotional basis. We (the cabin crew) are being sent down to Manston in Kent to do the aircraft visit part of our training course which is also where the pilots are doing their take off and landing training. So perhaps it will just be return promotional flights from there? I’m not sure.

The 787 will have 8 crew onboard. Four working in CW (including the CSD) and four serving World Traveller/WTP. There will be some product changes on the 787, mainly small tweaks to start with. For example there will be less of a trolley presence in CW with more of the service hand run. Drink orders will be taken, prepared in the galley and then delivered individually. And ALL the ovens onboard are steam ovens like currently found in F so hopefully that will help in the quality of food preparation.

Just slightly OT (or I should say ON topic as it has dominated most of this thread lol) something that has always amazed me since I joined BA (and as viewed in the BT Forum) is the love/hate appeal it tends to have on people. Yes, there are people on this forum who will blindly defend BA, promote it. Shout from the top of a mountain ‘BA is THE BEST and can do no wrong’. ‘Qatar?? Emirates?? Tsk tsk. For the chavs!’ But equally, there is a contingent that simply detest BA and will take whatever opportunity they can to slag it off. BA can do NO right. They are dreadful, the very worst in the world. Down there with Turkmenistan Airlines.

I’ve never really understood either of these ways of thinking. To me, BA has always been a pretty middle of the road airline. On par with most of the western world airlines, slightly ahead of some, slightly behind some others. Market leader and innovator? No, not for some time. Has always taken wise business decisions? Definitely not. The most wonderful F/J product in the world? We all know the answer to that one…..

But by the same token, I do not consider BA to have a ‘dreadful’ product. And I don’t consider it ‘vastly outdated’. There are areas that need massive improvements – aircraft presentation, catering, lounges to a degree. And the seat is very much down to personal preference. When I fly solo I love that closed in/isolated feeling of the window seats. Others will find it confined and claustrophobic. I get that. When travelling with my partner I love the two middle seats facing backwards. For me there is no match in terms of privacy. Other balk at the idea of having to step over feet to get out and feeling ‘trapped’. I get that too.

But for all of those who question why BA didn’t come up with a new product in J or F for the A380/787 there is a very simple answer. Because the current one works. It remains popular. And with BA linking the financial centre of London to other major centres of the world they have no problem filling the seats at a decent yield. And by sticking with the same seat and the same configuration they can get more seats into the same area. Simple.

A lot of people DON’T like this seat. Some have gone to other airlines. But the point I alluded to earlier in this thread applies to this case also. The ££ value of people that leave BA to fly indrectly via the Gulf for example is still less than the ££ BA would lose by removing seats to accommodate a more roomy environment. This is the stark reality.

With the American carriers vastly improving their F and J products, this could be the tipping point that will get BA on the defensive again. As others have mentioned, AA’s new J product is superb. But it is only on a couple aircraft (so far), their other J class longhaul seat is dreadful and the revenue across the atlantic is shared in a pre-agreed ration between BA/AA/IB anyway. But if we see the likes of Delta and UA installing similar seats on their transatlantic flights, that is when BA will become worried. They do NOT want to lose the transatlantic business segment to competitors that are offering a superior product and non-stop flights from London.

Personally, I think certain people on here should reveal whether they have any link with the airline they are promoting or defending. That’s just my opinion. Whether it be BA or other airline. There is obviously no requirement but I think it would help with some posters credibility. For example it is widely known that the likes of myself and BAcrew1 are BA employees. So people can take that into consideration when they read our posts. LeTigre has revealed to all he works for Virgin. So again, there is no questioning his intentions.

[Biztraveller74]

Brilliant post rferguson!
Great quality like I have not seen in this forum for some time!
Agreed that people who comment should state their link to air industry.
As for myself, as if anybody would care, I work in Oil&Gas.
I have a biast towards Emirates and asian airlines, and very disappointed by BA!

[JonathanM8]

Great posting from RFerguson. One reason that I dont contribute as much to this forum is that (apart from the personal backbiting, which in my view should be moderated out), is the extremist views held by some on both the pro and anti-BA camp. I travel nearly every week, mostly on BA, where I have a Gold card and had one for the last 19 years. I used to have VS and BMI Gold when working for another company. So I am a frequent traveller, passionate about travel, but I dont work in travel. I have a bias to BA, because I use them so much, but not blinded to their failings either. It would be good if there was a bit more objectivity to the forum. And lets not forget that airlines have to make money too, so finances will drive many decisions.
I am looking forward to the new fleet additions and, as I fly on the 767 service to FRA, hope to try the A380 product on that route. Hopefully enough noise has been made for BA to also work on building back the lounge service – but I guess the overall purpose of my posting is to applaud the common sense of RF Ferguson and plead for some objectivity and proportionality to postings on this thread…and others too!

[AnthonyDunn]

@rferguson – 14/06/2013 12:06 GMT

An excellent and very considered posting for which many thanks.

Biztraveller74 – 14/06/2013 12:29 GMT
JonathanM8 – 14/06/2013 12:30 GMT

Agreed – which is why I have had a substantial bust-up with one well known “scratched record” BA critic that his postings had got to the point of serial repetition and tediousness. His latest postings appear to have been more considered, proportionate – and all the more interesting and thought provoking for that.

As for my “position”: non-exec chairman of an energy efficiency organisation whereas Snr Management is in mining so that’s my set of interests declared. No direct shareholdings in BA or any other airline but considerable shareholdings in the future performance of UK plc.

[ImissConcorde]

rferguson – Excellent post. And it’s had the effect of “outing” me! I was a B.A. employee for 31 years. I was ground staff in Ticket Sales/Customer Service. I absolutely loved the job and not once did I think “I wish I wasn’t going to work today”

[AllOverTheGaff]

Hello rferguson

Having discussed BA with you before in a calm and logical manner, it is clear this forum can actually have a reasoned debate about all things BA, and as there is a large UK populous on BT it is no wonder that it is a frequent topic of conversation. For what it is worth, I agree with you that there are 2 camps, in fairness my own opinion is that a BA thread always seems to bring out the worst in people. It is a “thing” on the board, and something which I have commented on an awful lot recently, I do appreciate there are those who don’t like BA who also have a tendency to opine what they see as “all that is wrong”, and credit to you that you are a BA employee with a vested interest, yet you can calmly discuss the airline.

Oh, to get it out of the way – I have no affiliation whatsoever with any airline. Never have. Nor is my business affiliated with an airline in any capacity.

That you cite BA as an “all-right” airline is fair, entirely. They are indeed “OK” at what they do. And if all you want from an airline is “OK”, then there is nothing wrong with BA. One of their recognised strengths is their frequent flyer programme which I benefited from earlier this year, I don’t think anyone would claim otherwise, I do fear that this “golden key” as I’ve phrased it before will only be worthy for so long.

Their old aircraft and seating, to me, is a big issue, as I am stating on another thread. It is why I’ve now chosen to no longer fly with them, the reasons for this are simple: There are better airlines, with a more modern product, at more competitive pricing tempting me to spend my money with them. Now, you BA lovers might see this as a personal attack on your own choice to fly with British Airways, it is not, it is simply my own reasons for flying with other airlines.

Whatever long-haul route I have to fly, I always have to connect as I am in EDI. Whilst it is only a 1.5/2.0 hour connect makes no difference to me, it is a pain but one I must endure. So, I care not whether I connect in LHR, EWR or DXB, the process is exactly the same – deplane, sit in lounge, wait for next plane. With that in mind, it is actually a whole lot easier for me to not fly with BA. Were I based in London with the direct flights BA have to offer I daresay the direct option BA could offer me would see a different stance from me, but as it is, BA have very little to tempt me back.

We spoke about this the last time we had an exchange on BA, if they were to up their game in other areas they’d perhaps see more loyalty. I’m thinking specifically food, service and lounge experience, alas they are not doing so and continuing with what I do consider a very old fashioned on-board seating arrangement – some of which past its sell-by date many many flights ago. These opinions are mines which I share with you for the benefit of the discussion, not to “bash BA”, and they are my own observations based on flying with the airline as recently as March. (Isn’t it a shame one has to qualify any negative comment? Nevermind)

I am not sure your comment about “it is working” is fair, the last passenger numbers I can get from IAG shows a decline – what of the past 3-years from 2010 to 2013? I struggle to accept that their loss of Qantas as a partner and the aggressive expansion of EK have had no effect.

From: http://www.iairgroup.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=240949&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1517846&highlight=
In December 2010 traffic, measured in Revenue Passenger Kilometres, fell by 8.3 per cent. Passenger capacity, measured in Available Seat Kilometres, was down 7.7 per cent on December 2009. This resulted in a passenger load factor decrease of 0.4 points versus last year, to 76.4 per cent.

Never say never as the old cliché goes, I might very well end up long haul on BA again if the price was right, (CW NOT First) and my expectation would be low, don’t you think it is a shame that I, and others, have such low expectations of what used to be a real innovator? Perhaps if BA had taken this chance with the launch of the A380 and 787 to make a bigger splash with some exciting product I would have booked with them to come back from LAX later in the year, as it is I, with what seems to be quite a few others have no real interest in flying the A380 as there isn’t anything new on board.

Anyone who sees these launches as anything other than an opportunity missed must not see the reality of what other airlines offer by way of exciting product on-board.

Regards.
AOTG.

[rferguson]

AOTG totally agree.

What BA J class lacks is the feeling of flying something ‘special’. As I work for an airline, I only travel for leisure or accompany my partner on their business trips.

BA does well on practicality. For the businessmen on their weekly JFK-LHR ‘shuttle’ it’s a great product. Multiple flights, good lounges both ends where you can pre-dine (though reading the T5 debabte on here not sure if that still stands) and then pretty much be left to sleep the whole way. The crew are pretty switched on and while many may lack warmth or interaction they can complete a continental breakfast service in the morning when you wake up 40 minutes before landing. Thru fast track, pop into the arrivals lounge. Shower, bit more breakfast if you want it. No glitz, no bling. A delight for the businessman that needs to be in the office the next morning.

Personally, when I fly I like something different. Again I speak only for myself but I like to feel I am being pampered a little that I really am getting value from a ‘premium’ cabin. In most cases, the middle eastern and asian carriers do this flawlessly. Everything really is an ‘occasion’ and beautifully presented. Even my recent AA long haul flights I was really impressed with the onboard service in comparison to BA (except the seats, which were dire). But the new seats combined with the onboard service I received and I think I could have quite happily chosen AA over pretty much any airline out there.

But yes, I totally agree with you AOTG. If I had to transit via LHR anyway and was paying for my own ticket and not bound to a particular airline or alliance I would certainly be shopping around. Just as I did when I recently purchased J class tickets for my parents to go visit their grandchildren in NZ. Let’s just say I did not avail of my BA discounts 😉 They were blown away with their journey and chauffer driven transfers. At a price that was significantly less than my ‘hotline’ fare.

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