Bailout of airlines….what do we get in return

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Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 67 total)

  • AMcWhirter
    Participant

    AF/KLM seek bailout from the governments of France and Netherlands.

    Air France KLM losing €25 million per day


    Tom Otley
    Keymaster


    PhilipHart
    Participant

    I should be shocked. But i’m not.

    Have we just become immune to this sort of behaviour, when by rights we should be seething with anger?

    3 users thanked author for this post.

    capetonianm
    Participant

    France is to bar companies headquartered in tax havens or with subsidiaries benefiting from low-tax regimes from receiving any government aid during the coronavirus crisis.

    The country has pledged to stump up billions to help companies avoid folding during the nationwide lockdown, which is set to be gradually lifted beyond essential sectors starting from May 11. But unions have warned that some bosses may seek to pocket state aid rather than using it to ensure employees keep their jobs.

    Bruno Le Maire, the French finance minister, said: ”It goes without saying that if a company has its fiscal headquarters or any subsidiaries in a tax haven, and I insist strongly on this point, it will not be able to benefit from the state aid.

    France has already indicated that companies who buy back their own shares or pay dividends during the crisis will be barred from state aid.

    “There are rules that must be respected. If you want state aid, you cannot pay dividends and you cannot buy your own stock,” he said. “And if your headquarters is in a tax haven, obviously you cannot benefit from any public support,” he said.

    And rightly so, so that people like Beardy B who have set up an opaque and devious framework of secretive holding structures in ‘tax friendly’ regimes to minimise paying UK taxes, albeit that such structures may be legal, should be denied state aid. His business empire and personal wealth have been based on devious confidence tricks, fraud, and lies, and as such I shan’t be shedding any tears if his companies to go bust. Of course his employees deserve sympathy and support, but as for him, nothing, and may it wipe the smug smirk off his face.

    2 users thanked author for this post.

    esselle
    Participant

    France is to bar companies headquartered in tax havens or with subsidiaries benefiting from low-tax regimes from receiving any government aid during the coronavirus crisis.

    The country has pledged to stump up billions to help companies avoid folding during the nationwide lockdown, which is set to be gradually lifted beyond essential sectors starting from May 11. But unions have warned that some bosses may seek to pocket state aid rather than using it to ensure employees keep their jobs.

    Bruno Le Maire, the French finance minister, said: ”It goes without saying that if a company has its fiscal headquarters or any subsidiaries in a tax haven, and I insist strongly on this point, it will not be able to benefit from the state aid.

    France has already indicated that companies who buy back their own shares or pay dividends during the crisis will be barred from state aid.

    “There are rules that must be respected. If you want state aid, you cannot pay dividends and you cannot buy your own stock,” he said. “And if your headquarters is in a tax haven, obviously you cannot benefit from any public support,” he said.

    And rightly so, so that people like Beardy B who have set up an opaque and devious framework of secretive holding structures in ‘tax friendly’ regimes to minimise paying UK taxes, albeit that such structures may be legal, should be denied state aid. His business empire and personal wealth have been based on devious confidence tricks, fraud, and lies, and as such I shan’t be shedding any tears if his companies to go bust. Of course his employees deserve sympathy and support, but as for him, nothing, and may it wipe the smug smirk off his face.

    The VS question is a tricky one. Delta own 49%, and are actually waiting for VS to settle an outstanding loan. They have said publicly they will not invest further, and indeed I am not sure they would be allowed to anyway.

    On the face of it, much of Branson’s “wealth” is the accumulated value of the Virgin businesses, and whilst I am sure he has significant personal wealth, it is misleading for the press to say he is worth £5bn, as this merely stokes the “fat cat billionaire wipe the smile off his face” nonsense.

    I am not in any way a defender of the guy, but I think that personality needs to be taken out of the debate as it is getting in the way. How many 000’s of employees of VS pay income tax, make NI contributions? How many 000’s work for businesses which supply VS, paying income tax and making NI contributions? A properly structured loan, with all the right conditions attached (and not a “tax payer handout”) MAY be a better outcome than simply letting the airline fold.

    3 users thanked author for this post.

    capetonianm
    Participant

    esselle : Yes, and most of what the press say, particularly about people they are gunning for, is ‘misleading’, to put it mildly.

    You are spot in in your comments in your last paragraph, and that was what I had in mind when I said I’d feel sorry for the employees, they are just ‘lambs to the slaughter’.

    You say ‘personality needs to be taken out of the debate’ and I agree up to a point, but behaviour should be part of the debate, and he is far from being the ‘lovely fellow’ that he would like to be seen as. I know people who were at school (Stowe) with him. Were it not for the fact that I was too bolshy for them to accept me, I would have been at Stowe too, although I am 3 years younger, we would have ‘overlapped’, and people I know who’ve worked for him don’t have much good to say either, so it’s ethics and behaviour.

    1 user thanked author for this post.

    capetonianm
    Participant

    canucklad
    Participant

    You are spot in in your comments in your last paragraph, and that was what I had in mind when I said I’d feel sorry for the employees, they are just ‘lambs to the slaughter

    Ditto that sentiment …..

    I’ll use a non aviation , but still relevant example from Sport to re-enforce the point.

    Before I go further, particularly for the Scottish Forum members I’ll be transparent and admit to be a Hearts season ticket holder
    As usual the football big wigs up here predictably & successfully did their impersonation of the Chimps Tea party , albeit by Skype –As a result 3 teams including mine (eventually) have been prematurely relegated.
    Lots of bluster about Sport not being important at this time and we should all be out with our pots and pans on a Thursday night etc.

    Then a re-think when somebody pointed out that the cost of relegation to those teams isn’t just ( Deservedly in Hearts case) playing in a lower league but will invariably mean substantial job losses of non-playing staff. Not furloughed, but redundancies and was it fair that anybody should lose their job because of circumstances out with their control ?

    Why should workers and their families suffer for something that isn’t out of their control ?

    Plus the cause and effect of every job lost at the end of all this , will probably be an incremental increase in how long it takes us to get back to having a working economy, never mind a healthy economy


    AMcWhirter
    Participant

    Can V Australia be saved ? And if so in what form ?

    I ask because @airplusnews tweeted today that V Australia is in debt to the tune of $4.4 billion (unclear whether US or AU$) to 10,000 creditors.

    It posts a pic showing a JCB blocking one of V Australia’s aircraft at PER.


    esselle
    Participant

    There’s an extraordinary video of Branson made for the benefit of VA staff where he claims that most federal governments around the world have already stepped in to save their airlines, and it is a pity the Australian government have decided not to. Bit of a stretch!!

    Given the ownership structure of VA (EY, SQ, HNA and Nanshan, with Virgin Group being a relatively small (10 % ish) shareholder, and the massive debt to creditors, I can’t see the current shareholders stumping up.


    Swissdiver
    Participant

    According to the Swiss TV today, both Norwegian (government’s funding) and Alitalia (nationalisation) were saved.


    Swissdiver
    Participant

    Here are the details for Alitalia and for Norwegian


    Inquisitive
    Participant

    https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/1252676786791440384/photo/1

    Very interesting data about how US airlines took government help in 2010 and then afterwards when they were making money, started filling their own coffers.

    I recall during debate about 3 ME airlines getting government assistance, these airlines were most active in opposing. Now where is the free market?

    Even KLM-AF, Lufthansa and host of others are being bailed out.

    Of course the present situation is extraordinary and with existential issue. But same can be said about 3 ME airlines as they wanted to have a foothold in the business. For those airlines it was existential.

    In my opinion, all bailout shall be equity based instead of debt.

    Singapore Airlines is following equity based fund raising by offering heavily discounted rights issue. This may not be good for some shareholders, but this method is more equitable and fair to big lender like government. When the airlines start making profit again, shareholders (including government) will get better return.


    n166
    Participant

    this is really sad, but for me, the sadder thing is – a lot of the people against ‘socialism’ for the working class were working class themselves, completely bought in to what was fed to them by the rich. pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, my tax money shouldn’t be going towards helping others etc.

    i really hope working class people see how obvious it is that the ruling class actually don’t want to help them, and will do everything in their power to do the opposite


    RoyJones
    Participant

    What do we get in return? Interesting thought. At the moment “flag” carriers are returning citizens to their home countries and providing cargo services to bring in essential PPE and other goods. If there is no “flag” carrier who is going to take their place? Is this sufficient reason to support at least one “flag” carrier?

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 67 total)
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