[cityprofessional]

exbatraveller, I’m not sure how “less experience” = “downgrade of service”. (a) they are several mainline BA crew who have chosen to go Mixed Fleet, and (b) many carriers have far younger crew than BA and provide similar or better service. If you prefer “experienced” cabin crew, I can recommend a number of legacy US carriers for your trip to Vegas – with far more experience than on BA

kellner, nobody is trying to take away your salary, so I’m not sure anyone is threatening your lifestyle. BA is just acknowledging with Mixed Fleet that most of its competitors have lower crew costs, and in some cases provide superior service, and that there are plenty of up-and-coming young crew (including other ex-Virgin staff), who would be happy and willing to work for BA on a lower salary. I am no BA apologist, but you can’t fault WW for responding to market demand

You say you left Virgin “as morale was low” – how is this different?

[pomerol]

RedAlasadair
Charlesjones
Kellner

I find it very dissapointing, that you always seem to play the man, whenever VK makes his point, which I normally agree with, but not always, He, always backs it up with documented fact, unlike you three who just descend into a personal rant.

I am just a loyal BA customer, who is quite distressed at the antics of the union, which reminds me of the demise of the motor industry in the 1960’s, which I had the very dubious pleasure of witnessing at first hand.

[kellner]

I agree and do not dispute that there are many younger and actually older people willing to do this job for a lot less money – and I have seen the age range of mixed fleet and it is very varied and not just young as people may presume. As I have mentioned before, I have friends that have decided to join MF and I wish them the best of luck.

I am not here to defend my job spec or what I get paid. You say no one is threatening my lifestyle, I’m not sure what your background is or how much you know about this dispute, but Mixed fleet will eventually have all the routes BA serves leaving the fleet I work on with no work, what do you think my choice will be? Mixed fleet is totally different to Virgin, BMI, the low cost carriers and foreign carries who have UK based crew. BA’s network is vast with extreme time changes and report times across a 15 hour period. They will work both short and long haul routes with only 9 days off per month, I have already mentioned I do not believe the salary for main crew to be competitive as QF UK based crew which only have three long haul routes from London can be paid more. How do I know this? I have seen a QF monthly take home pay and it it more than MF BA on the calculations set out by BA.

In answer to your question VS morale vs BA, I was never proud to work for Virgin, it was very easy to leave. Whilst I work to live and not live to work, I have enjoyed my time at BA, there are a plethora of great people who work as crew and I have had the pleasure of meeting lots of them and having great ‘moments’ both on the plane and down route. It hasn’t been easy to conclude the need to leave as many people suggest crew do, I’d like to leave at my choosing rather than the feel I am being pushed out.

[VintageKrug]

Nine days off per month is…erm…a day more than what most people in the workplace get.

No-one is threatening your lifestyle. If you read the offer, your existing T&Cs and salary level will be maintained. In addition, you will get a pay RISE. And earlier offers were more generous than what is currently on the table.

It is true to say that Mixed Fleet does remove some of the more “lucrative” routes for which payments can apparently run into the many hundreds of pounds for crew on legacy contracts. This is, sadly, unsustainable, just as overtime and other preipheral benefits (final salary pension schemes etc.) or no longer viable.

So there will be a very slow diminution in these more lucrative payments, but there was also a minimum payment guarantee which would (in the spirit of equity for all) have limited and loss for those who profit from regularly bidding for such routes. That approach was rejected by the Union.

Mixed Fleet is a small proportion of the cabin crew community, but will naturally grow, with an estimate of 40% of routes being Mixed Fleet in five years from now. It will take over a decade for Mixed Fleet to be flying all BA routes, and in the scheme of normal resignations and retirements, that is plenty of time to make adjustments.

The more BASSA costs BA money from striking, the more reason there is to ramp up recruitment onto Mixed Fleet.

Just as the comparison to the UK car industry is valid, so this poor excuse for a Union is misrepresenting its members’ interests by refusing to change, refusing to adapt, and has left its members out in the cold financially, and could soon lead them into a strike the result of which would be to lose their jobs or increase the influence of Mixed Fleet even faster than was originally planned (and that pace has already accelerated following earlier IA).

It is interesting to note that BA’s Human Resources department is being taken over by the Legal Department. This is not a good sign for Militant BASSA members who plan strike action or other illegal secondary action.

[redbowtie]

VK YOU HAVE NOT REPLIED TO MY QUESTIONS

VK I find it increasingly strange why you take such a huge interest in the out comes of BA dispute. Please could you explain why you spend so many hours dedicated to this subject You seem to be on top the latest news. How could you be when a lot of it has not even reached the media. As an outsider/ customer you seem to be extremely informed. Please could you let me know where you get all your information from. Have you crossed the data protection acts to compile your argument? And why is this argument put forward by you so important to you? If you believe that Mixed fleet and original fleets have no difference in experience, just pay, why and earth would this bother you as a customer? in fact according to this it would make sense to say you wouldn’t even notice a difference on a mixed fleet crewed flight. Why are you so interested in seeking out the mixed fleet flights? are you unsure if this argument is true? Having flown BA on both its long haul flights and Shorter flights I can honestly say that BA need to be concentrating on its product, it is so poor so shabby so broken. The crew I have encounter seem to do nothing but run around fixing and sorting things out. And usually in the most professional manner. Shame on BA for hanging its golden asset out to dry. The company will move on, the profits will sore, but in my mind the heart of the company is being torn out. May I ask what line of business are you in VK, are structural changes happening at your work place? Would appreciate your answers.

[kellner]

VK, you clearly have your quite strong opinion on this subject, and I have made my mind up not to entertain a slanging match with you since you sound just like a BA manager (even if you’re not, you certainly sound like one).

You cherry pick your answers and do not answer those questions which you cannot quantify with proper evidence (such as your figure of 1000 mixed fleet crew allegedly ready to cover a strike).

Do not insult my intelligence regarding days off by comparing a cabin crew job to an office job or any other job that entails 9-5 Mon-Fri. Shift workers generally get more than 9 days off per month. Do not insult my intelligence by inferring a 2.9% pay rise in my basic salary is so ‘good’ or that my life style will be maintained with a ‘top up’ payment that is not guaranteed to be reduced as routes transfer over. There are an array of issues to this dispute and you are concentrating on the ones which best suit your argument.

That’s all I have to say on this matter and will actually stop reading the BT forum. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and air their views on platforms such as this forum, but I have noticed that you concentrate so much on BA issues that I can only conclude you are either on the British Airways payroll or are very closely linked to someone who is. I have NEVER met a customer that shows such insight or interest in the issues of BA.

[Flytoomuch]

VK – don’t rise to kellner, redbowtie et al.

I don’t always agree with your views, but I do appreciate the time you spend looking things up and presenting them on here – I’ve certainly recognised some nuggets from company briefings, analysts reports, flight magazines, press reports. court judgments, forums like pprune, but don’t have time myself to constantly be monitoring them. So thanks for giving me the occasional updates.

Something that I would overwhelmingly agree with you on – splendid news on the MF debut and I wish them all the best. Not flying over the holiday period, but certainly would not have a problem being on debut flights.

Alasdair – you said above, “I think it means that person is looking forward to being served by an overworked, unprofessional/unexperienced crew who would otherwise be packing bags at ASDA (for all the money it is reported BA will be paying them).”

You’ve no more credibility on this subject.

[DisgustedofSwieqi]

“That’s all I have to say on this matter and will actually stop reading the BT forum.”

Well that will be a reflief for most of us, please will you take Alasdair with you.

As someone who holds a gold card with BA and has been travelling for over 30 years on business, let me make it quite clear that I am happy to see an inexperienced cabin crew team, so long as they are led by a suitably qualified manager.

There is quite a difference between cabin management and a 30 year experience captain finessing a difficult landing in challenging conditions.

As far as cabin crew goes, so long as they are trained to the standard required by the competent authority and they pass their SEP questions at briefing, they will do for me.

The reality is that no-one knows how anyone will perform in an emergency, until it is encountered and then one hopes the training will kick in.

Some of the worst service I have received is from flight attendantd\s rivalling Methusulah in years (mind you, I am thinking US carriers.)

[VintageKrug]

I think you are right, Disgusted.

Experience is appreciated, but so is enthusiasm, positivity and a customer focussed approach. If it can be delivered at a lower cost, and so permit new routes, new aircraft, new cabins and improvements to the onboard soft product, then from a customer perspective I don’t see any downsides.

First, from a safety perspective, ALL crew are certified to the same standards. This is legal requirement, and not negotiable. There is no question of any safety implications from crew not being able to perform effectively in an emergency situation. This is a Red Herring, and does not hold water.

Second, Mixed Fleet is not as inexperienced as you make out. All recruits in this initial tranche are experienced crew, mostly from other UK based airlines. This was done to ensure training could be speedily completed, and to ensure a core of people who can provide guidance and leadership to other less experienced future recruits.

Mixed Fleet applicants have either chosen to come across, preferring the customer and route profile of BA, or have been made redundant by other airlines during the global current economic boom which has been so carefully evidenced in the posts of others. An example is the 600 people bmi made redundant earlier this year:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/nov/25/bmi-suspends-routes-jobs-risk

I understand further tranches will not be required to have experience, but they will be working alongside their more experienced colleagues in, erm, exactly the way legacy fleet introduced new recruits into the airline.

Every company has newer recruits who need to learn the ropes, some will be more competent than others, but rigorous performance management, and supportive training regimens will ensure this is evened out.

Unless the BASSA position is that only old, experienced crew should serve BA passengers? I would not be surprised if that is indeed the mindset.

As Disgusted rightly states, there is no reason for a correlation between the age of cabin crew, experience or salary and the level of service delivered. None whatsoever.

In my view, the correct response to Mixed Fleet is to ensure that legacy cabin crew prove to BA Management, through customer feedback and other evidence, that it is capable of exceeding the service delivered by Mixed Fleet, and justifies the salary and experience which is alleged to so differentiate it from those newer to the role.

Bye bye to whoever it was who said they wouldn’t be reading BT any longer.

[DisgustedofSwieqi]

My only unease in all of this is the outcome for the committed legacy crew, who worked during the strikes and now are stuck in a difficult position.

I believe they deserve better, even though I realise that compliance with the law may make this tricky.

[VintageKrug]

It is indeed those individuals who deserve our sincere sympathy.

Having said that, there is the simple option of resigning from BASSA, which would sort this particular issue.

Many have already done so.

But there are others who believe some of the scare-stories BASSA puts around, some who would be intimidated by other BASSA members for leaving, some who believe they would lose the legal support BASSA purports to offer (but which is not always given, and even then can be of a very poor quality) and various other reasons.

Many are just too disinterested/apathetic and this is evidenced by the very poor turnouts in previous ballots.

As I have stated previously, I believe BA needs and wants a functioning union with which to collectively negotiate. It may be possible for BASSA to return to that role if its leadership changes. But it is for BASSA’s membership to change that leadership, or resign from BASSA.

At this most serious stage in the dispute, I no longer have sympathy for the moderate crew who remain members of BASSA; either they should engineer change for within so that their union actually represents their views, or they should leave.

Doing so would ensure that any legal sanction levied by BA would focus on those militant, obstructive and unreasonable BASSA members, and that innocents would not be caught in the crossfire.

[Age_of_Reason]

The proof of the Mixed Fleet ‘pudding’ will be their capability to handle crying babies (in Bus. Class or elsewhere) and/or farting drunks, and retain the patronage of the passengers nearby.

[DisgustedofSwieqi]

“At this most serious stage in the dispute, I no longer have sympathy for the moderate crew who remain members of BASSA.”

I cannot see how a BASSA member can be classified as being ‘moderate’, when they sponsor (by their fees) such unreasonable behaviour.

The committed crew I mention are the non union members.

There is a big difference, in my eyes, between voting to strike and working and being outside the union and working.

[batraveller2]

As previously promised on a different post I agreed to write about my mixed crew flight to vegas. Unfortunately the flight was deboarded at LHR due to broken toilets (luckily I hadnt boarded) and so was delayed a few hours. When I finally boarded the plane, I was not offered any champagne etc (travelling in club world). I queried this after we took off and I was told this was done on the deboarded plane. The service was chaos and horrendously slow. There was no preferrential treatment for ordering food for silver / gold! No personal introductions. Staff didnt really know what the food or drinks were – requesting a chablis came back with champagne. Usually in club you are used to a very quick drinks service after take off and another shortly after but not so! I raised my queries with CSM (no CSD’s sadly) and he said that the new BA was the experience and no rushed service (presumably an excuse for slow service). It was kind of like a budget business class – luckily am flying back from LAX with proper crew on upper deck. Having said that the first officer was excellent and chatted in the galley for ages, There were a few old BA staff on board (think they were on fixed contracts and so had to move to mixed crew) and the difference was amazing as they genuinely cared and were so much more professional and helpful. BA could be going very much downhill if it had an all mixed crew flight – however keen they are. When I challenged the CSM he was very agressive at first – much like the monarch airline where he was from! Though by the end of the flight he relaxed a bit after the initial lunch service panic! However I would recommend avoiding mixed class at all costs ( I was told it was only their first few weeks on long haul and they had stuff to learn). I would suggest flying on normal BA flights with the knowledgeable crew who may be older but have service (mixed crew reminded me fvirgin)

[Alasdair]

The Chief of BA is on record as stating “if you are not happy with your experience with British Airways then fly someone else.” Well, with all his new initiatives including this mixed fleet he will undoubtedly fulfil this.

[Author]

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