[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=814294]

FDOS_UK wrote:

Henryp1 wrote:

I believe that there are good and not so good in each type of cabin crew, mixed fleet have given some superb service and continuity over time, just as the old contract crew have been dreadful with an attitude of entitlement over giving proactive service. As with any employee I believe that if they don’t like it, they shouldn’t stay as it must be unnecessarily stressful for them regardless of the free flights etc.

Henryp1

With the very greatest of respect, this it completely NOT THE POINT of this thread.

As thread starter, may I ask you to stay in the scope, which is what is the point of creating a new group of cabin crew, with a fresh start and then allowing it to become demotivated.

By all means, start your own thread on which fleet is best (or not), but pleased don’t drift mine. Thank you.

Gosh what an angry poster you are, it feels as though you’ve singled me out over others, I’m just posting as some others have. Never mind as an open forum I believe I have the right to post, when I debate with friends we use What’s App where we know exactly who is who. That way no nonsense as a fact is a fact. Taking the title into account I thought it was a light hearted thread as I’ve never heard of ‘Miffed fleet’.

[/quote]

Henry, I’ve brought others back on topic, it appears to me as if you haven’t read the whole thread and missed this.

No one has any rights on this forum, we all post at the pleasure of BT, but I would respectfully ask you to comment on thread and not drift it in a direction I have said a couple of times that I don’t want to take; everyone has their own opinion of MF v WW v EF etc, but this thread is about the way that the airline started a new cabin crew group and have got it to a position where morale seems to be very low, churn rate is well above normal and industrial action is prevalent.

So please, will you stay on topic? It isn’t a light hearted thread, as is obvious if you read it from the start – ‘miffed’ describes the apparent morale of a number of mixed fleet crew I’ve encountered this year (not just me, by the way).

Thank you.

[Intheair]

Swissdiver

This is a forum where opinions are expressed. I confess I don’t know what flaming is. I know what pomposity is. Henry should be allowed to express an opinion and not be slapped down by an arrogant pedant.

[handbag]

Up until this week I had not posted on BT or even read for quite some time. The reason was, that I personally found that several threads turned into unpleasant exchanges and reading through was not always an enjoyable experience. We all do this in personal time and it should be a good experience.

The reason I do post is two fold.

1. I believe there are often a lot of misconceptions of the reasons that things are the way they are. As a Crew member, I can give a different perspective and also back up what other Crew have said if needed. Things are not always as they seem.

2. I like to travel when not working (very rarely on staff travel) and find the information very useful .

Once again, I am questioning, whether this is something I can be bothered to be part of and I am sure many other feel the same.

Is it possible to just draw a line over difference and have a pleasant discussion. Even if you think you are right, please be the better person.

Please don’t respond to my this post, can the thread just carry on in a respectful way.

[Flightlevel]

The only people who can correct or admonish are the BT staff and they do – was unaware Ryanair operate to FRA (LH A380s) and stand corrected. We should all just give our opinions or make factual comments and perhaps remember the old (and rude) proverb about opinions too? Politeness costs nothing and means a lot!

[FDOS_UK]

Bearing in mind Swissdiver’s and handbag’s comments (thank you both for sharing your views), it seems that Intheair is not up to speed on netiquette (“I confess I don’t know what flaming is”.), so here are two definitions that may be appropriate to his/her comprehension:

Thread hijacking

“When a person starts a posting on a message board, or forum, or Facebook, that others are able to comment on, that original posting and the comments on it are called a thread. A thread hijacking occurs when one or more individuals commenting on the original posting, go off topic, creating a separate conversation. This is rude, and bad internet etiquette. If people want to discuss a different topic, they should start their own thread.”

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Thread%20Hijacking

Thus my comments to Henryp1 – no participant has the right of censorship here (as Flightlevel says), but it is reasonable to ask someone to stay on topic and invite them to start their own thread if they wish to have a different discussion – it is not pedantry to do this.

Flaming

‘Flaming’, or ‘to flame’, means to attack someone verbally online. Flaming is about hurling insults, transmitting bigotry, name-calling, or any outright verbal hostility directed at a specific person. Often, flaming is a result when there is a heated difference of opinions on a topic, and it has devolved into childish bickering.’

Produce a virtually continuous stream of invective is certainly flaming.

https://www.lifewire.com/what-is-flaming-2483253

[Tom Otley]

Please,…..

This was such a good thread.

So much information.

So many opinions.

Please don’t let it go down the same tired route.

Disagree politely.

Don’t be offensive and don’t be easily offended.

No one knows who you are so it’s not personal and never should be.

Let’s enter into it hoping we can share what we know and respect what others know.

If we think they are wrong, say so with respect.

The whole world is polarising. Let’s not do it here.

[FDOS_UK]

Tom

I agree with all your comments.

However, please will you be a little more active in editing/deleting posts that are blatant flaming?

That would be helpful, IMHO.

Nothing wrong with expressing different opinions, but I don’t find these extracts acceptable behaviour:

Gosh what an angry poster you are

You do not own this forum – lighten up, you are making a complete fool of yourself

You have some real issues

I know what pomposity is. Henry should be allowed to express an opinion and not be slapped down by an arrogant pedant.

All in response to a request to stay on topic and inviting the poster to start their own thread.

We do well without moderation, most of the time, but leaving this type of invective untouched does seem to be encouraging ad hominen behaviour.

[Tom Otley]

Fair point

[Swissdiver]

Back to the thread…

Is there a minimal chance both crews would finally be blended or is it impossible as long as WW is around?

[handbag]

[quote quote=814399]Swissdiver

Participant
Back to the thread…

Is there a minimal chance both crews would finally be blended or is it impossible as long as WW is around?[/quote]

As Legacy Crew, my personal opinion is, No.

I do think this would be a beneficial thing, but there are 2 major reason why I do not think it will happen.

1. BA saying that the current model does not work.
2. Crew Seniority issues and the issues relating to this. Union etc.

The plan is that eventually there will no longer be a Legacy Fleet.I do believe, that due to the higher turnover than expected, that this is taking longer than anticipated.

Over the years, the numbers are gradually decreasing. Legacy Crew are regularly offered VR and every few months part time lists are opened. I don’t know the figures, but I would suspect that 60% if not more, that are on some type of part time contract.

Part time is
75% Available 3, off 1 week
50% Available 4, off 4 weeks
33% Available 3, off 6 weeks
Job share 1 month on , 1 month off ( this is no longer an available choice, but there are many Crew who are still on it).

With the large numbers of Crew taking the regular VR and Part time, there may be a time when the Legacy Fleet is not viable. At this stage, I suspect that due to the low numbers, Legacy will have no option but to join Mixed, rather than the other way around.

This is my personal opinion and of course, I may be totally wrong.

[FDOS_UK]

handbag’s point is a good one.

One way I could see this changing, is if the following happened

1 – Brexit impact on BA is very severe

2 – an existential crisis arises

3 – the leadership team (probably with a new CEO, as the old one will have gone due to the crisis) decides drastic action is needed

4 – they make the entire cabin crew community redundant and announce a single new group

5 – they then recruit to the new group, with different stuctures replacing the senior roles on the aircraft and wipe seniority

6 – the crew/union accept (don’t necessarily like) the expedient need and go along with it

Is the above likely? Probably not, but there is a (non-crew) precedent in BA, the Future Shape and Size programme of the early 2000s.

Otherwise, it will be muddling along with a situation that isn’t really working and is damaging the brand by contributing to a death of a thousand cuts.

This is just my opinion, but the question ‘what is the point of mixed fleet’ is stil one that I cannot see the answer to, beyond purely cost cutting – there are too many downsides for it to be an optimum solution.

[rferguson]

@ swissdriver – it’s the hundred thousand dollar question. I’ve been in BA a long time so the cynic in me says – it will make things easier from an operational point of view, it will make the MF crew and the legacy crew more happy and secure and bring an enhancement to customer service therefore the answer is NO. Lol.

As Handbag has mentioned there would be challenges with blending the two groups. Namely:
Seniority – on legacy fleets we chose our working positions based on our seniority on the day. MF don’t have seniority.
The way we are managed – MF and legacy fleets work to a complete different set of rules.

However, none of these are extremely insurmountable challenges. And they would require a ‘buy in’ from both groups of crew and their respective unions. And it would take time. The ridiculous thing is that the time to START looking at these kind of things was six years ago. But BA is constantly caught up in other ‘priorities’. A constant churn of senior managers. Resolving (or not) the MF dispute. Launching the new CW enhancements.

I think the hope is that the legacy crews will just wither on the vine until they are basically such a small group they will be forced onto MF. Currently there are around 8,000 legacy longhaul crew versus around 5,000 MF crew. But as such a high proportion of the legacy crew are on a part time contract of some sort the head count equivalent is roughly the same. BA has offered redundancy packages to legacy crew on a regular basis and it’s not a great package but it does cut the numbers which is the only way they really can shrink WW (apart from retirement) as no one leaves! I guess it will take a good few more years – more redundancy more retirement – until a point where MF dwarfs legacy and BA will perhaps start ‘buying out’ our contracts or offering some kind of incentive to either go to MF or go all together.

At the moment BA realise they need the legacy crew so are keeping us sweet. With the high turnover on MF as well as their industrial relations rumblings BA would be up a creek without a paddle so to speak without the legacy crew. I think once all the dust settles they’ll renew their efforts to vastly shrink the legacy fleets though. If they offered me a much better VR package I would likely take it. At the moment it’s not good enough – roughly £1.2k per year of service.

*** Personal opinions only ***

[K1ngston]

I have watched this debate descend into mud slinging which is why to be honest I left the forum the last time but was convinced to come back. The subject is clearly an emotive one for many and whilst I feel that FDOS asked a pertinent question, there have been variations of a theme in response which is fine by me and should be accepted.

For me, I am not interested in Legacy or MF, I am looking for a level of service that I should be entitled to on a flight with so many choices to be made out there

I recently gave an overview of my QR flight back to the UK to get married and at the time I benchmarked the service against all competition, and I am afraid BA in my opinion generally doesn’t come anywhere close. From aircraft, staff interaction and how my fiancé and I were treated on all 4 sectors this is how it should be done. This was not always the case, I remember getting on the Moscow flight and the welcome meant you were “home” getting on the Shanghai or Beijing flights the same, thats not the case now … Maybe most of you travelling in J or F still get that feeling but it does not extend to the back. It does on other OW airlines …. I attain Gold by generally travelling in the back so my loyalty should always be recognised (which it isn’t of course)

There are of course exceptions, I fully appreciated handbag and RFergusons views, they know right? It could be one persons interaction during the course of a flight that will either make or break the experience. However in my now limited interactions with BA whether the team is Legacy or MF there is not the same interaction that there once was and this is detrimental to the airline and the brand

[FDOS_UK]

K1ngston

Whilst I understand your point (and do not disagree with it), the purpose of this thread is to try to understand why mixed fleet was started in a blaze of glory, but allowed within a few years to become demotivated and strike happy.

So it’s looking from the corporate perspective, not the passenger experience perspective, where the comparison between fleets may be highly relevant.

As a number of people seem to wish to comment on the passenger experience perspective, I’ll start a new thread for this purpose.

[Swissdiver]

K1ngston, I appreciate your first comment, and agree regarding QR now. That said, the topic of this thread is precisely MFs…

Handbag and RF: Thank you for your great comments. What I see behind is precisely the disease that affects too many companies: egos! It would have been reasonable for WW, the BA board and management to realise the path they decided doesn’t work (isn’t attrition rate huge among MF members?). As Fdos suggests, it would require a change of management, that change we, passengers, all dream for…

[Author]

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