[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=813863]Even deeper – you’ll be able to get to Australia soon …..

[/quote]

You haven’t got a clue, have you?

[Intheair]

You’ve arrived

[FDOS_UK]

Nothing constructive to add.

No ability to debate the topics.

[esselle]

I’m with FDOS_UK on this one.

Many seem untrained and lacking maturity.

Many seem embarrassed by the “enhancements” they are expected to deliver.

Many seem unhappy with their employer and appear to be trying to “get back” at them by being off with the customers.

This leaves what seems to be a smallish number who love their job and enjoy giving good service, and these are the ones who become a kind of benchmark prompting the “if only there were more like him/her” comments.

[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=813949]I’m with FDOS_UK on this one.

Many seem untrained and lacking maturity.

Many seem embarrassed by the “enhancements” they are expected to deliver.

Many seem unhappy with their employer and appear to be trying to “get back” at them by being off with the customers.

This leaves what seems to be a smallish number who love their job and enjoy giving good service, and these are the ones who become a kind of benchmark prompting the “if only there were more like him/her” comments.

[/quote]

I agree with everything you write.

If cabin crew is a differentiator (in terms of service) for a premium airline and I think most here would agree that is the case, what on earth are BA management playing about at in letting their fleet of the future descend into such a bad state?

[AlanOrton1]

Eselle – I have to say, on this occasion, I disagree with you.

I’ve not had reason to take issue with MF before, not encountered a sense that they feel embarrassed, seen them being off with customers or displaying an anti-employer attitude.

To give an example on trip in J a couple of months back I spotted Drambuie listed as a drink on the menu, having read previously this had been ‘enhanced’. I asked for one, the MF lady said sure, disappeared for a little while and came back to say sorry there wasn’t any and offered all the other spirits they had. Handled professionally.

I see them as a less experienced crew than legacy, less well paid, but able to perform a perfunctory service level and in general are cheery and willing, though lacking in polish.

[rferguson]

The challenges faced by MF are obvious in terms of effectively and efficiently delivering customer service – particularly in the ‘premium’ cabins. On my first longhaul flight with BA I was the only ‘newbie’ on my flight. I was coached by my colleagues who had been doing the job five or twenty five years! With MF none of this applies. I have several friends on MF. They say it is not at all unusual to have a crew comprising two people on their very first flight, another few crew within their first month or two and a few ‘experienced’ crew that have been with the airline a year or so. In other words – the new crew are being coached by crew whom themselves are still finding their feet. A far from ideal situation. As others have said this is NOT the fault of the Mixed Fleet crew. They are doing their best with the training they are given. But speaking from experience NO classroom/mock up training compares with the training you receive on board from your more experienced colleagues. In the mock up the business class cabin does not have 97 seats, all the ovens work and no one suffers IFE failures. The average flight this is not the case.

Again, only my own opinion but MF have been able to blag it to a degree because despite them being less experienced and taking a long time to complete the service they tend to be forgiven as it is usually quite obvious they are new and they tend to be quite sweet and smiley and genuinely try hard. The past few months though morale has obviously crashed through the floor – so now customers on MF routes are getting service from inexperienced crew, sometimes coupled with a lousy attitude to boot.

I’m not saying us legacy lot can stand on our pedestal. I’ve flown with colleagues that hate their job and let everyone on that aircraft know. But for the majority of us we’ve been doing the job a long time, are experienced and although not able to display the same loyalty to the company we used to and disagree with many of the choices made at the top, we feel our customers share this mentality too and so we do our best from a sense of pride point of view. Also, we have to acknowledge we are very well remunerated for the job we do and enjoy good terms and conditions – none of us want to lose those.

*** Personal opinions only ***

[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=813966]Eselle – I have to say, on this occasion, I disagree with you.

I’ve not had reason to take issue with MF before, not encountered a sense that they feel embarrassed, seen them being off with customers or displaying an anti-employer attitude.

To give an example on trip in J a couple of months back I spotted Drambuie listed as a drink on the menu, having read previously this had been ‘enhanced’. I asked for one, the MF lady said sure, disappeared for a little while and came back to say sorry there wasn’t any and offered all the other spirits they had. Handled professionally.

I see them as a less experienced crew than legacy, less well paid, but able to perform a perfunctory service level and in general are cheery and willing, though lacking in polish.

[/quote]

Alan, I think we all need to remember that we have a very small data sample from our own personal experience and I accept what you are saying.

On the other hand, I have seen several examples of what esselle describes in 2017 alone, during twenty odd MF flights.

I’ve also seen the ‘cheery, but unpolished’ approach that you have described.

RFerguson

Once again, the point of this thread is most definitely NOT to compare MF with legacy fleets – there is no point, they are so different in orgin and history.

I do agree that classroom learning (programmed learning, as I would refer to it) is only a relatively small component of building competence and that observing experienced colleagues operating, learning by experience (doing the job) and good coaching are significantly more important to the development of the individual (though the initial programmed learning should be the foundation for building).

However and I realise that you may not wish to answer this as a BA employee, what on earth are management doing in letting this group if crew get into a condition where they can do brand damage?

As I’ve said before, I believe that at least 85% of quality problems are the responsibility of management.

Though the IT outage was a dramatic and brand damaging event, I believe that the compound effect of a demotivated group of cabin crew, who are not well trained in service delivery, could have a worse impact over a period of time as the one off event will be forgotten, but the ongoing experience of crew will create a cumulative effect.

As we know, people are much more likely to share negative experiences, than positive and the media knows that bad news stories are more popular than good news.

So I ask again, to all on the forum, what is the point of mixed fleet?

[rferguson]

Back in 2005/2006 us on legacy fleet were told we were no longer competitive and were given an ultimatum – pretty much accept MF T&C’s ourselves or see further crew taken on under these new T&C’s. BA of course would have liked to have enforced reduced T&C’s on us but legally could not find a way to do it.

MF was the brainchild of two BA cabin crew managers that have now moved on to positions in IAG (one ironically in charge of some IT related stuff). Instead of simply recruiting new crew to work alongside existing crew the decision was taken to essentially establish an airline within an airline…from the most junior to senior positions on board they would be new recruits. The recruitment and training would all be done by the newly recruited managers in Mixed Fleet too……not to be tarnished by ‘old ways’ of the legacy fleet trainers.

Initially BA pitched the remuneration deal as ‘market rate plus 10%’. One will notice the ‘plus 10%’ aspect was soon dropped and BA now quotes ‘market rate’. The first intakes saw the kind of recruits BA had hoped for – crew from the likes of Virgin Atlantic and Qantas all excited about joining BA. However these new recruits quickly saw that the BA they joined was nothing like the one they had heard of in the past – well paid crew with great T&C’s. Of course, word got back to their friends and ex colleagues at their previous airlines and candidates from those companies dried up and leaving another airline to join BA no longer became an aspiration as in the past.

It has to be said that there is nothing new in the ‘Mixed Fleet’ model within the airline industry. Most airlines have done the same or similar. Nearly all airlines have a ‘legacy’ and ‘new’ crew contract. Actually BA MF even continues to see recruits from Virgin Atlantic as they have made cuts to their already pretty lousy pay and T&C’s. Some of the other airlines follow the same method as BA in creating an entire new fleet from top to bottom and allocating the newbies their ‘own’ routes. Qantas is an example of this. Qantas cabin crew consists of ‘QAL’ (Qantas Airlines – legacy crew) or one of two wholly owned subsidary groups – Qantas Cabin Crew Australia (QCCA) and Qantas Cabin Crew UK (QCCUK). Only the new contract crew work on QF’s A380’s and the routes it serves. Yet – compare the standard of service received on a QF new contract flight versus a BA MF flight. QF have executed the new contract well. Firstly whilst they are paid nowhere near what their legacy colleagues are paid they are on a very decent package in terms of money. The gulf between legacy and new at QF is nowhere near as wide as BA. Secondly, their training is incredible. A lot more thorough than BA’s a lot more focus on cabin service. The biggest difference is that Qantas acknowledges the experience of their legacy fleet crew and there are programs in place to harness this experience where the new contract benefits. An example – legacy base crew can go to work alongside the new contract crew for fixed term secondments. This will usually involve a temporary promotion in rank. The legacy crew member will continue to receive their average legacy pay via a top up. However, the legacy crew member will work to the new contracts T&C’s. So although this legacy crew member will still cost QF the same the company gains through increased efficiency of the crew member as well as the experience and coaching provided to the new contract crew. BA scorns this approach. It does not want in any way shape or form to think that BA Mixed Fleet needs anything from the legacy fleet. In fact THEY are the elite fleet. They were the ones given the hats afterall remember? As usual its an approach from some manager that literally cannot see the end of his/her nose.

So, in short FDOS the point of MF is multi fold. Save money. Make the legacy fleet a ‘dying fleet’. But as is often the case, poorly executed.

[handbag]

As usual rfergusson makes a very comprehensive constructive response. I am Legacy Crew and agree with his points.

No matter what you are taught in a training school, it can never be underestimated how important it is working and learning from those that know how to do the job in the real world.

On a recent flight a Crew member told us how on Staff Travel, he had recently had to sit on an upper deck jump seat, as the flight was full. He quickly learned that both of the Crew had been flying less that 6 months.

As sitting on the jump seats for a long flight is not that comfortable and he hoped the time would go quicker, he offered to run the galley for them and do all the preps. After the service was completed, they couldn’t thank him enough for the help they had been given and the tips of how to get everything prepared and organised.They also went and asked the in charge Crew member to have a chat, as the suggestions he had made were so valuable.

I don’t know if there is any way now that the 2 groups could be integrated (due to contracts etc), but I certainly think the mix of enthusiasm and experience would be a good thing.

[rferguson]

Hi handbag….I totally agree. There is NO reason why the two working groups could not work together. And there is a precedent for this.

Before Mixed Fleet started recruitment BA went through a period of recruiting temporary contract crew. These crew were basically working to MF T&C’s. They were working a combination of long and short haul routes. They received less time off at home after each trip. And they were on a different payscale. The big difference – they were working alongside legacy crew on the same aircraft. It was great! The temps introduced some enthusiasm and youthfulness to our ‘mature’ fleet. And there were no ‘issues’ as to the different pay etc. Even as is now legacy crew are working to different payscales than their legacy colleagues. Those recruited pre ’97 are on a different payscale to those after. Those that have been redeployed have kept their old base salaries. But we get on with it – the deal was the deal when we signed up and we were happy to sign up to it.

Why BA steadfastly refuses to consider the crews working together is an unknown. The only reason I could think of…? Crew would actually be happy. And they don’t want that. I think they prefer the model of ‘divide and conquer’. And also any change would have to be an admission from the top that the current model does not work and was a mistake – and we all know how BA are absolutely LOATHE to admit to such things.

*** Personal opinions only ***

[FDOS_UK]

So, there is NO POINT in mixed fleet, but a lot of potential benefit from having an integrated fleet?

Is that a reasonable summary?

[rferguson]

Exactly FDOS. I can only imagine what these new external managers think when they join BA in a senior position. I think they see the cracks, bang their head against a brick wall for a number or months then realise there is no point before conceding they can not make any real changes to previous mistakes. So….you either become a ‘yes man’ or you leave. The good ones tend to fall into the later category.

*** Personal opinions only ***

[handbag]

rferguson

We have been told since the began, that Mixed Fleet are the Elite Fleet. Someone would have to admit, that both Fleets have great things to offer and together would be better than as one.

Although we have always had various times over the years where Crews have come and gone on various different pay scales and T & C, the big issue to overcome would be seniority, status or whatever anyone wishes to call it. Previously people coming onto Legacy have been always at a main crew level. With all the different promotion programmes and grades on Mixed Fleet, not sure how this will be assimilated into Legacy. I know, that you must have heard Crews reaction towards this.

So as much as I feel it could have been done easily at the start, don’t feel it would be quite so easy now.

[rferguson]

I agree handbag. And I think it’s something we’d have to collectively agree on via a vote with the union.

Personally, i’d be willing to find other ways of allocating our working positions apart from the current seniority system on WW if I get something in return – which would namely be a more certain future and access to the entire route network again.

In regards to working ‘under’ Mixed Fleet CSMs….it wouldn’t bother me at all. I imagine it would be like WW CSD’s – some are great at their job others useless. I remember when LGW longhaul was closing as a ‘legacy’ base years back and LGW ‘Single Fleet’ was taken over. All the existing LGW legacy crew were offered direct transfers to LHR legacy long haul. LGW longhaul being the more junior legacy base had a reputation as being fiercely strict and some of the CSD’s down there had sargent major-esque approaches to their jobs and a real name for themselves. When they ended up coming to LHR longhaul and tried their same approach with the LHR legacy crew most realised their tactics would get them nowhere and the majority chilled out. I think it would likely be the same for CSM’s.

[Author]

Posts