BA loses NYC crown.

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This topic contains 15 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Tom Otley 17 Oct 2018
at 06:02
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  • rferguson
    Participant

    BA has held the crown of carrying more passengers to the NYC area than any other non-US airline (except for Air Canada) for years exceeding it’s main competitors AF/KL, LH group etc.

    It’s just lost its crown – not to one of it’s legacy competitors but to Norwegian. BA carried 1.63M versus Norwegians 1.67M passengers into the NYC area over a years span.

    Still a force to be reckoned with nonetheless!

    UA carried the most passengers into/out of the NYC area overall.

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-norweg-air-shut-british-airways-new-y/british-airways-loses-new-york-crown-to-low-cost-rival-norwegian-idUKKCN1MI1YA


    Tom Otley
    Keymaster

    I’m astonished by that.

    I suppose its because Norwegian flies to New York from London and… Barcelona, Madrid, Paris (Charles de Gaulle), Paris (Orly), Rome, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Oslo, Dublin, Edinburgh, Shannon and Bergen.


    rferguson
    Participant

    I’m astonished by that.

    I suppose its because Norwegian flies to New York from London and… Barcelona, Madrid, Paris (Charles de Gaulle), Paris (Orly), Rome, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Oslo, Dublin, Edinburgh, Shannon and Bergen.

    Yes I was too Tom. And couldn’t quite work it out in my head how. Until like you say, Norwegian flies from all over europe to the NYC area whereas BA/LH etc only fly from a few hubs.

    I think Norwegian pack more passengers onto a 787 than BA a 747 also.

    I’m certain BA would still carry many more passengers to the US overall than Norwegian. Or probably more than any non US airline (excluding the canadian/nearby country ones).


    AMcWhirter
    Participant

    It’s also not totally clear whether or not the figure covers SWF.

    Norwegian uses SWF for its B737 MAX services but, as we have reported, some of these routes are being exed in the weeks/months ahead.

    Norwegian to axe all three US routes from Edinburgh

    Norwegian to terminate transatlantic services from Belfast


    canucklad
    Participant

    it’s not just 787’s , its 737’s as they fly (for the moment) from EDI.
    A friend and his wife flew to Stewart with them and weren’t impressed.
    And the report is stretching the New York area a wee bit…….Kind of like FR’s claim to fly to Frankfurt or Oslo !!


    rferguson
    Participant

    It’s also not totally clear whether or not the figure covers SWF.

    Norwegian uses SWF for its B737 MAX services but, as we have reported, some of these routes are being exed in the weeks/months ahead.

    Norwegian to axe all three US routes from Edinburgh

    <iframe class=”wp-embedded-content” sandbox=”allow-scripts” security=”restricted” src=”https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2018/09/22/norwegian-to-axe-all-three-us-routes-from-edinburgh/embed/#?secret=TSnVErT5vZ” data-secret=”TSnVErT5vZ” width=”500″ height=”496″ title=”“Norwegian to axe all three US routes from Edinburgh” — Business Traveller” frameborder=”0″ marginwidth=”0″ marginheight=”0″ scrolling=”no”></iframe>

    Norwegian to terminate transatlantic services from Belfast

    <iframe class=”wp-embedded-content” sandbox=”allow-scripts” security=”restricted” src=”https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2018/09/24/norwegian-to-terminate-transatlantic-services-from-belfast/embed/#?secret=xuSxx0LXPo” data-secret=”xuSxx0LXPo” width=”500″ height=”493″ title=”“Norwegian to terminate transatlantic services from Belfast” — Business Traveller” frameborder=”0″ marginwidth=”0″ marginheight=”0″ scrolling=”no”></iframe>

    Yes, it’s not made clear if they also include Stewart International numbers in the figures. The figures have been published by the Port Authority of New York and NJ and they operate JFK/EWR/LGA and Stewart.


    FDOS_UK
    Participant

    I’m astonished by that.

    I suppose its because Norwegian flies to New York from London and… Barcelona, Madrid, Paris (Charles de Gaulle), Paris (Orly), Rome, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Oslo, Dublin, Edinburgh, Shannon and Bergen.

    Don’t forget that BA does, too. That’s the point of a hub and spoke airline.

    1 user thanked author for this post.

    FDOS_UK
    Participant

    It’s also not totally clear whether or not the figure covers SWF.

    Norwegian uses SWF for its B737 MAX services but, as we have reported, some of these routes are being exed in the weeks/months ahead.

    Norwegian to axe all three US routes from Edinburgh

    <iframe class=”wp-embedded-content” sandbox=”allow-scripts” security=”restricted” src=”https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2018/09/22/norwegian-to-axe-all-three-us-routes-from-edinburgh/embed/#?secret=TSnVErT5vZ” data-secret=”TSnVErT5vZ” width=”500″ height=”496″ title=”“Norwegian to axe all three US routes from Edinburgh” — Business Traveller” frameborder=”0″ marginwidth=”0″ marginheight=”0″ scrolling=”no”></iframe>

    Norwegian to terminate transatlantic services from Belfast

    <iframe class=”wp-embedded-content” sandbox=”allow-scripts” security=”restricted” src=”https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2018/09/24/norwegian-to-terminate-transatlantic-services-from-belfast/embed/#?secret=xuSxx0LXPo” data-secret=”xuSxx0LXPo” width=”500″ height=”493″ title=”“Norwegian to terminate transatlantic services from Belfast” — Business Traveller” frameborder=”0″ marginwidth=”0″ marginheight=”0″ scrolling=”no”></iframe>

    Yes, it’s not made clear if they also include Stewart International numbers in the figures. The figures have been published by the Port Authority of New York and NJ and they operate JFK/EWR/LGA and Stewart.

    I would assume that Stewart is included in the figures – upstate NY is quite a big area and Stewart is convenient for parts of Connecticut, too. Flights to/from here might attract a niche audience of people who do not wish to go into NYC, only to come out again. Also, if you are renting a car to visit relatives in the ‘burbs or to go on a road trip, it might be preferable to start outside the metropolis.


    AMcWhirter
    Participant

    Pere Suau-Sanchez (who is involved in Air Transport Management / Airline and Airport Strategy) has also seen the Reuters piece.

    He has tweeted me to say “Passenger numbers mean nothing without looking at yield and value.”

    2 users thanked author for this post.

    FDOS_UK
    Participant

    Pere Suau-Sanchez (who is involved in Air Transport Management / Airline and Airport Strategy) has also seen the Reuters piece.

    He has tweeted me to say “Passenger numbers mean nothing without looking at yield and value.”

    They do if your scope of reporting is limited simply to who carried the most bodies! It is a symbolic metric.

    Taking a broader view, he is correct, however, if a competitor sucks bodies off your routes, you never get to generate a yield from them and awareness of the growth of Norwegian has probably prompted certain actions by IAG in the last year or two.

    The legacy airlines stood by whilst Ryanair and easyJet grew from tiddlers to majors, that’s probably still a raw memory for some, especially as BA helped the process by creating a good little airline and then selling it, with it being snapped up by easyJet from the company who bought it from BA.


    canucklad
    Participant

    Question for Tom and Alex
    How does the JVA with AA affect these numbers?
    I seem to recall that significantly contribute to BA’s TATL coffers.
    If that’s the case, is it possible that bums on seats on either airline are included in the calculation?
    I.e. somebody with a BA issued ticket flying into JFK on an American aircraft.


    Tom Otley
    Keymaster

    It’s a good question. I will ask for an answer…

    Meanwhile, from Norwegian…

    “Norwegian operates 16 routes from three airports in the New York City area – John F. Kennedy International Airport, Newark Liberty International and Stewart International Airport to: Amsterdam; Barcelona; Belfast; Bergen; Copenhagen; Dublin; Edinburgh; Guadeloupe; London; Madrid; Martinique; Oslo; Paris; Rome; Shannon; and Stockholm. Norwegian launched its first route to New York on May 30, 2013 from Oslo and Stockholm on May 31, 2013.”


    AJDC
    Participant

    Apples and oranges.
    I wonder how things will change once Brexit goes into effect…


    rferguson
    Participant

    It seems the scope for low cost longhaul is not unlimited.

    Within the past year Icelandic loco WOW air launched four new routes to the US Midwest from it’s KEF hub – to St Louis, Cincinnati, Cleveland and Detroit. Of these four, from the end of October only one will continue – Detroit. Three of the four routes are being discontinued.

    It will be interesting to see what the loco longhaul carriers networks look like in a few years time and whether there will be any consolidation.


    Tallinnman
    Participant

    Are the JFK flights by Norwegian to non European destinations like Guadeloupe and Martinique included in this total?

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