[EU_Flyer]

Just to point out that, to my understanding, a significant reason BA still operate the 767 is because of 787 delivery delays. The 787 will eventually replace the 767s in BA’s fleet.

[greyhawkgeoff]

Alex – just to expand your point, the 7 remaining long haul 767-300’s are due to go to the knacker’s yard this year, if Boeing can deliver the promised rather larger 787-900’s which are supposedly all for long haul with 8 first class seats. None are due before fall/winter so expect to see the long haul 767’s well into 2016.
The 7 remaining short haul variants, are if I recollect are to be replaced in time, say 2018 or so, by A320 variants – I think this was in an analysts presentation last summer for IAG. It would be a similar move to that made by AA on their JFK to LAX and SFO routes this past year or so. The sheer economics of the smaller plane outweighing the lack of wide bodied amenity. Mind you AA’s 767 – 200 ‘s were positively geriatric!

[MrMichael]

Karlmarx, an interesting list of airlines you quote as using short notice charter. May I ask though we’re any of those on sectors of over six hours? If they were under 6 then the outbound crew with a quick turnaround can just about do the return flight. However anything over six hours and they would require another crew to bring it home. I am figuring most available aircraft for short notice charters are not based at LHR, so would have to dead head to LHR before starting the chartered flight. Let’s say the airframe is at Stanstead, from time of GO to picking up pax at LHR is going to be in the region of two hours. That restricts you then down to a five hour sector. So unless I am missing something I don’t think BA were in a position to Charter an Aircraft for the Almaty route without delaying by at least 15 hours those on the Almaty to LHR sector. I suppose it is conceivable that if the chartered airframe was a 767 the BA crew at Astanta could fly the bird home, no idea if that is allowed or not.

[BrotherJim]

Karlmarx, a 60 minute dispatch service is not like a last minute charter for a failed aircraft. As someone else mentioned it is likely that any such airline would not be at Heathrow, so it would be a minimum of 1 hour to organise and maybe get an aircraft in the air, then time to get it to Heathrow, load it up and away. So looking my guess is a minimum of 6 hours.

I put it to you that any such charter would only be used in case of an aircraft that has failed away from home, thus the airline needs an additional aircraft to rescue stranded passengers, so completly different to what would appear to be a last minute sub at Heathrow.

Yeah of course your going to say I am making excuses but this is the reality.

Tirana1, industry standard descriptions of hauls are as follows:

under 4 short haul
4-8 mid haul
8-~14 long haul
14+ ultra long haul

As for the BA website they are marketeers, but just look at the aircraft and your gripe. Clearly you don’t think the 767 hard product is up to a 7.5 hour flight, so kind of proves my point somewhat that it isn’t longhaul.

PS Almaty isn’t even listed as a 767 destination!

[Tirana1]

Brother Jim,

1) There are no “industry standard” descriptions for mid-haul – and in any event, the duration for LHR-Almaty is 7.5 hours outbound, 8.5 back, so on any analysis it is long haul – and BA market it thus.

2) I have nowhere said that the 767 long haul product is not up to long haul – what I have said is that the aircraft is past its sell-by date – which given BA had intended to retire them some years ago is absolutely the case. They will also shortly be non-compliant for trans-Atlantic routes.The long haul product is the old style flat bed, with a small tv screen and in-seat power requiring a converter which is not otherwise a modern product. However, the flat bed is comfortable and guarantees a decent sleep – which is why I fly the route rather than other routes to Central Asian cities via Istanbul or Moscow.

3) LHR – Almaty is served exclusively by a 767 with BA – check out thebasource and you will see only 767’s on the route. Previously it was a BMI route which was a tag on and involved A321 stopping off en route to refuel in Tbilisi or A330 which then flew on to FRU.

[KarlMarx]

MrMichael – 27/01/2015 21:55 GMT

I believe the charterer took over some flights to New York for BA, so it would appear that they did operate segments of more than 6 hours.

Here is the company’s website, if you are interested.

http://www.titan-airways.com/services/airline-sub-charter.html

BrotherJim – 27/01/2015 23:50 GMT

You wrote “I do not believe any of these airlines has ever called in another airline at short (1-2 hours notice). Yeah I can believe they may have done it a few days out for what ever reason, but nothing under that. Put passengers on their flights yes.”

Now you are seeking to squirm out of this, by changing your argument which is pretty pathetic.

Have a nice day and note that your trolling isn’t working with me.

[BrotherJim]

Hey Karl, not trolling and no squirming just stating the facts. I have always been talking about a short notice sub.

Tirana1, firstly there are industry standards, as I mentioned. Not sure what BA uses, but they do use them in determining product offerings including meals and provision of IFE. Take Moscow for example a few years back it was a 767 mid haul route that used a club europe fitted aircraft, but offered IFE. Of course now changed of course. Stockholm on the other hand used the same aircraft but no IFE offered.

As for Almaty, yeah I know it is a 767 route, but not according to the BA website that you are listing as gospel in saying Almaty is long haul. Though do conceed BA do use the term, but for marketing reasons, but the aircraft are very much mid haul configured. You state the short commings compared to say the 777 or 747 product, but fail to see that is because it is a different product offering (dated of course) to suit mid haul routes.

Oh another thing most routes tend to be longer one way or the other, airlines will generally average them out when determining if it is short, mid or long haul. Of course some mid haul routes they will schedule long haul product, for commecial reasons. Clearly BA rightly or wrongly don’t see the need to do that on flights to Almaty.

[Tirana1]

1) BA.com does not specify which aircraft are used on which routes save if you use the timetable or booking function – if you do so, you will find the route consiistently operates with a 767

2) Please cite by way of link (even wikipedia will do !) the authority for your assertion that there is an “industry standard”to the effect that a 7.5 hour flight should be treated as “mid haul”

3) Please explain what you mean by “mid haul configured” and how it differs from long haul configured – BA 767’s long haul version are regularly used on routes of 8.5 hours (Entebbe) and 10 hours (Cayman)

Note, when BA launched the 767/747 mix to DME, Business Traveller and BA hailed it as a “new long haul service”

[MrMichael]

Not sure mid haul, long haul, short haul makes a great deal of difference. I would hazard a guess that airlines themselves (not for marketing purposes) consider a short haul route as one whereby the outbound crew can turn around and crew the return flight, such as Paris, Vienna, Cairo etc. the limit on this is I suspect around the six hour mark, still making a crew day of around 14 hours….the limit I believe. Anything longer and it is long haul as the outgoing crew cannot fly the thing straight back, it requires another crew at the station ready and rested to fly back.

That brings me to a question, a bit off topic, please forgive me, …did Concorde Crews do the full round trip to JFK and back to LHR, or did they have a rest stop?

Whenever I have flown to Cayman it has always been on a 777.

[KarlMarx]

BrotherJim – 27/01/2015 12:24 GMT

No Karl, I didn’t ask about subbing, I asked about leasing/chartering in another carriers aircraft at short notice, which you suggested a few posts up.

BrotherJim – 28/01/2015 04:10 GMT

Hey Karl, not trolling and no squirming just stating the facts. I have always been talking about a short notice sub.

Yeah right; a bit of advice, a good troll stays consistent 😉

[BrotherJim]

So you mean I should learn from you? Your the one trolling. Myself and at least one other have said what you are saying is not possible in the situation that Tirana1 was in. BA or no other airline will lease in an aircraft at short notice to operate an outbound flight, especially one 7.5 hours in length.

That is a F A C T. If you can prove otherwise, please prove me wrong.

[K1ngston]

I know we have moved on slightly but reading from the top of the thread and the offer of Avios points am I the only person that thinks these are a complete and total waste of time, why give something that can never be redeemed? I have tried countless times to redeem all the Avios points I have as well as the 2 upgrade vouchers which are also not worth the paper they are supposed to be printed on!!!

With a lot of choice here in Asia I have managed to get flights on CX and MAS using Avios but you them there folks based in the good ol UK what chance have you got??

AA have it right in the US where you can rock up and put yourself down for an upgrade at the gate at least you are getting the use out of your miles, I am fed up with the BA person at the end of the phone saying “the computer says no”

[Tirana1]

K1ingston, agreed – the avios points offered to me are valuable beacuse GGL jokers mean I can actually use them but my colleague (gold card) also impacted by the problem said there was no point since he cannot redeem the ones he has. The Exec club “enhancements” just announced don’t at first blush seem especially promising (but that had better be a separate thread !)

[K1ngston]

Tirana1 I was just reading them and couldn’t make heads or tails out of what was said to be honest, it’ll will take someone far cleverer than I to answer that and I am sure you are right there will be a separate thread shortly ….

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