[K1ngston]

[postquote quote=972826][/postquote]

Thank you as I suspected its around events that are specific …. My husband and I were in Tel Aviv last year at the same time as pride and the Pink pound, dollar, shekel and any other denomination was in full swing with over 350K visitors to the city at the time to celebrate Pride… BEYBrit I totally agree with you about it being a good business decision by Hilton for specific events like the hotels in Singapore put on events for the F1 etc

As for labels, the picture depicts labelling at its worse which is what I am talking about

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AFlyingDutchman

[stevescoots]

This PC rubbish, Just like Brexit, has gone so far into the stratosphere of lunacy that it does not warrant any of my attention so just dont care anymore. I am surrounded by friends of all ages, shapes, colours, genders, religons, sexual and political persuations, and they all feel the same as i do, that most so called “activists” these days are anything but liberal

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canucklad, ImissConcorde, esselle, LuganoPirate, AFlyingDutchman

[TupeloKid]

I thought LGBT was a kind of sandwich.

[IanFromHKG]

I am quite active on diversity and inclusion issues and part of that means looking at these things (or trying to) from all angles. Some interesting stories from my own experience (I have more but these are just a sample):

In one of the Asian offices of a former employer I sponsored the establishment of a Pride group. Despite the country in question being strongly Catholic which, I stupidly thought, might mean a low take-up, more than 10% of the staff joined. On day one. Literally on the very first day.

In the same office we had to establish “third-gender” toilets – not because the local staff were demanding them but because (to my horror) senior management staff from head office (in the US) were concerned about trans colleagues being in the same toilets as them.

In my own office in Hong Kong I also tried to launch a Pride network, and it utterly failed. Of the three colleagues (out of several thousand) who joined up, whose identity I didn’t know (we centrally organised this in order to preserve anonymity), when I arranged for a message to be passed through asking if one of them would like to take up leadership of the group, they all promptly resigned.

I do try to use gender-neutral language when I can (eg by using “s/he” when someone’s gender isn’t obvious – which can quite often be the case with Chinese names, for example), and in formal letters use “Dear Sir or Madam” rather than “Dear Sirs” which is the traditional formulation for lawyers. One leading international firm (Freshfields) has mandated this as formal policy.

There is undoubtedly a balance to be struck. The tipping point for that balance constantly changes – and that is a good thing. We do and accept and even promote things now that would have been unthinkable a decade ago, let alone when I first entered the workplace, or when my parents were in the workplace, or a century ago…. That is progress, and is to be applauded.

As things currently stand, notwithstanding my strongly pro-D&I stance, I do find many aspects of PC language ridiculous (the idea, for instance, that I should not use the word “brainstorm” because it might offend people with epilepsy, seems ludicrous to me – but perhaps time will move on and the word will become unthinkable). For businesses, there are two primary drivers, it seems to me. (1) Doing, and being seen to do, the right thing. It is a perfectly legitimate business aim to conduct the business in an ethical way and to establish a vision and a set of values, and to expect employees to sign up to them. More on this below. (2) Pure and simple business strategy. Inclusive businesses attract a wider pool of candidates, customers, suppliers, and so on. That this is good business sense should be so axiomatic that I am stunned that some people don’t buy into it. Employees who feel included are more likely to buy into the business in the emotional sense, to give their best, and to help the business succeed. Employees who have to hide part of themselves or who don’t feel accepted are much less likely to invest emotionally and may underperform, or move. Exclusion and division are some of the dumbest strategies any business could possibly employ.

Further to point (1). I do accept (reluctantly) and understand that – however much I may disagree with some people’s views – what is perceived as the “right thing” varies hugely between cultures and individuals. Moral positions that I find utterly repugnant are taken (in some cases, quite literally) as gospel by others. I just hope that society will continue to evolve, and that societal norms will continue to change, so that in future discrimination or exclusion on the grounds of gender “choice” (I use this word in inverted commas only because I don’t believe that gender* is a choice any more than sexuality is) is seen as being as ludicrous and inappropriate as the burning of witches.

* It is important to note the difference between “sex” (which is biological – reproductive organs, chromosomes and so forth, although there are some people for whom even this is not binary) and “gender” (which is what one feels). These terms are often confused, but the distinction is important – not least in understanding the distinction between someone who is transsexual (undertaking changes to their biological form) and someone who is transgender, which are different things even if they are often related.

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TimFitzgeraldTC, EU_Flyer, Nogbad01, K1ngston, Ekond222, MartynSinclair

[Huit-Six]

@capetonian: for once, I’ll agree with you, it’s difficult to avoid labels.

I also sometimes “justify” myself by saying “my X friend” with X being any characteristic relevant to the point I’m trying to make. If we’re talking about LGBT it makes sense to mention “my gay friend” as he is part of that group (and therefore should have an informed opinion on the matter) whereas if you say “my communist/tennis player/blonde/Japanese (whatever) friend” it seems totally besides the point!

Regarding your comment about the lady in the camera store seemingly shocked about you saying “black gentleman” I suppose this may be due to the history between blacks & whites in South Africa and PC etiquette might be a bit sensitive on that particular topic. I live in Singapore which is also a multicultural society where it is very uncommon that this type of thing would shock anyone (me, a non Asian, coming back to a shop and mentionning the helpful staff by identifying him as “Indian/Malay/Chinese gentleman”) and although there has been (and continue to be) issues, PC etiquette here accepts such ‘labeling’ even on race. Depends on the context probably.

Back to the actual topic: I do believe that PC has gone way too far in some cases, I fully agree that we should be respectful of every type of individuals but at some point there are higher priorities in life than this kind of nonsense! Reminds me of the discussion about the francophone people flying Air Canada and sueing them for only announcing stuff in English…

Today the slightest issue is been taken so seriously yet the REAL problems (I don’t know… climate change, mass extinction, unemployment, rampant obesity… you name it) are being ignored, it does not make sense to me.

[capetonianm]

Regarding your comment about the lady in the camera store seemingly shocked about you saying “black gentleman” I suppose this may be due to the history between blacks & whites in South Africa and PC etiquette might be a bit sensitive on that particular topic.

Lack of clarity on my part …… this took place in England. In ZA there is no such false PC sensitivity nonsense. People describe themselves as what they are, black, Indian, coloured (that is a recognised racial grouping, not an insult as I understand it be elsewhere) Chinese, white, etc.

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LuganoPirate

[thebigseats]

Bloody ridiculous. The morons who came up with this nonsense ought to reorganise their priorities for god’s sake. The world is full of snow flakes, sadly.

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AFlyingDutchman, capetonianm

[capetonianm]

They are not necessarily morons, I see them as vindictive hypocrites and troublemakers.

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LuganoPirate, AFlyingDutchman, thebigseats

[TupeloKid]

I believe the new term for snow flakes is bed wetters.

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thebigseats, capetonianm, AFlyingDutchman

[BEYbrit]

Well that descended into name-calling quite quickly. Welcome to the playground.

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EU_Flyer

[canucklad]

To answer the original question ……. Yes, especially when it comes to discussing/implementing non-heterosexual matters.

And it’s becoming clear that the decisions that the leaders of the “Gay” movement made years ago to integrate and influence when in a position of power has bared fruit over recent years.
Not so long ago it was all about being respectful and non-prejudiced to the gay community , now as the letters continue to be added to the original LGB tag , the activists in that movement have been able to positively promote themselves with so much success that it almost feels politically incorrect to come out the closet and declare yourself straight.

I was called to an internal meeting and asked to prove our processes on how we specifically interact with our non-binary customers. I replied that we didn’t have any processes or specific training on the matter, I went on to say that as a blue chip company we didn’t label customer s (excepting for accessibility) and chose to treat everybody with equality.
By the end of the meeting It became clear that our internal LGBT team had been pressured into providing pro active evidence that we favoured our non-binary customers with preferential treatment from a leading Gay Rights group.

As someone in his mud 50’s I fully don’t understand when we lost the simple idea of RESPECT , regardless of who you are.

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AFlyingDutchman, TupeloKid, Jacob, LuganoPirate

[LuganoPirate]

And now the latest, several universities have banned clapping as it might disturb those sensitive to noise!!! Probably the same ones who were in a noisy pub or club till 5am?
You now have to use Jazz hands! I wonder if they realise this was first used by AL Jolson and then the Black and White Minstrels, all who blacked up for their performances – something very non PC for which people are being admonished and being forced to resign, even though they did it 20 years ago!!

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TupeloKid, Jacob

[TupeloKid]

[postquote quote=974481][/postquote]

Silent concerts are the logical next step.

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LuganoPirate

[capetonianm]

Silent concerts are the logical next step.

With some ‘music’, I’d be in favour of that!

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LuganoPirate

[Johnnyg]

Silent Karaoke would be most welcome as well

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stevescoots, LuganoPirate

[Author]

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