APD Increases. Will you change yr Travel?

Back to Forum
Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 18 total)

  • Anonymous
    Guest

    MarcusUK
    Participant

    Not just this years’ increase, but next, quite a substancial increase!
    From the Customs website…
    http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ria/apd-reform-ia.pdf

    “In the lowest class of travel reduced…Nov 2009 -2010”
    Band A – 0-2,000 miles From £11 to £12.
    Band B – 2,001-4,000 From £45 -£60.
    Band C – 4001-6,000 From £50-£75.
    Band D – Over 6,000, From £55-85.

    “In other than the lowest class of travel, standard…”
    Band A £22-£24,
    Band B £90-£120,
    Band C £100-£150,
    Band D £110 – £170…

    The document refers to lower numbers of flights taken owing to the charges to benefit the environment! What a rip off!
    More like Lower numbers of people taking long haul flights from the UK, & you can put me in that catagory!
    I am sure the ailing Airlines will lose much business & i think, more the leisure traveller who is now choosing a premium cabin.
    These are the people whom the Airlines will have to carry their premium travel for a while, whilst business reigns theirs in!
    & the H1N1 now begins to bite the UK, travel will be avoided or actively discouraged for work!

    I would rather fly, or Eurostar it to Europe, & spend the money on earning another flight, & use the EU Hubs than pay Government £170 a flight! Or perhaps an extra night in a good hotel to relax, & start my major trips from outside the UK.
    That will be my for my personal & business travel.

    What are others thoughts?
    My business will go to Schipol or Paris, or Frankfurt, & i will top up my FF flights too.


    NTarrant
    Participant

    I doubt it will make a lot of difference on the short haul in band A of only afew pounds more.

    More likely to look at the longer trips to see if there is a saving but I wonder if it is worth the hassle and time. If the saving is greater than the time lost in going out to AMS or BRU then one would have to consdier that


    Airpocket
    Participant

    Does the APD apply if the ticket is purchased outside the UK?In other words, if someone decides to fly from, say, South Africa to the UK, would she/he have to pay the APD?
    If not, then it would make sense to buy tickets overseas and, hopefully, make better use of the weaker Rand, HK$, Rupee etc.,


    SimonRowberry
    Participant

    I’ll risk making myself really unpopular here (No change there, then).

    We really do have to start taking environmental issue more seriously. Unless one is a total ostrich, it is apparent that climate change is occurring. I will give you one example from personal experience. I spent half of my time in Finland between 2002 and 2007. In 2002 we had snow in late October. By 2007 we couldn’t even guarantee more than three weeks’ snow per annum. That is a material and visible change in climate. In Rovaniemi in the Arctic Circle, the ‘season’ slipped back from December to March ( and got shorter). It is an irrefutable fact. Heslngin Sanomat (the leading newspaper) is predicting snow-free winters in Helsinki within less than 10 years.

    Whether CO2 emissions are the cause (or a material factor) is where the jury’s out. I don’t know the answer (and I’m a Chartered Town Planner and hold a Post-Grad Diploma in Environmental Management, but I’m prepared to be open minded). Let us assume that CO2 is a major causal factor. If that IS the case (and I’m not saying it is) then aviation would clearly be a prime contributor.

    Ergo. If (and I say IF) this is so, then we need to discourage unnecessary air travel. That surely must be a given (and I repeat, IF).

    However, IF that is the case, it should not be the business traveller who is penalised. It should be the unnecessary leisure traveller. Whilst not wanting to unfairly knock O’Leary (oh, Ok, why not?), it is precisely the people we’ve all heard of who are Ryanair addicts, go on weekends simply because there are cheap flights (viz the recent Panorama prog on BBC) that should be penalised. Not us who have to travel for reasons of business and, therefore, wealth creation.

    Equally, I’m not having a go at leisure travel. That is also crucial economically. Where we have to ask ourselves questions is whether, if aviation is a major polluter, the business or leisure markets should bear the largest part of the burden.

    As many of you know, I am against political posting in the Forum. This is not political, per se, as whatever Governments we have, anywhere in the world, will have to face this issue. Again, “IF”…..

    I really have no idea what the answer might be. All I know is that it worries me immensely. I have a 9-year old son and I want him to see a better world than we have now. And a world that is still there and also recognisable. I don’t want the Maldives, the Seychelles, half of Bangladesh, etc, simply to be a memory because of climate change.

    Simon


    Airpocket
    Participant

    Simon, while the aviation industry is undoubtedly a contributor to the worsening ecology of the planet, let us not forget that the automobile industry and ,to a lesser extent, farm animals also contribute. Worst of all, though, is the hydrocarbon industry.
    It is one thing charging an extra tax for environmental reasons, which I would have no problem paying. However, the proceeds from the APD will be wasted by this Government, just as previous revenue streams have been used and abused to the detriment of the public/tax-payer.


    NTarrant
    Participant

    Sadly Airpocket is right about the tax, APD will increase but disappear into the large pot. The whole issue of climate change is a debate in it self.

    It is interesting that you mention Finland Simon from when you lived there. My wife and I visited the Birksdale glacier near Olden in Norway, we went on a P&O Cruise. The pre-excursion seminar banged on about how climate change is melting the glacier, yet the guide on the coach who was a local said that the glacier was smaller than currently when she was a little girl and had got bigger and is now going back to the size it was how she remembered as a girl, that was a span of 50 years.

    I wonder about the transport policy which allows air and rail travel to have fuel at no duty to pay yet bus operators only get a rebate of 99p a gallon and the govenment want to take that away! Then there is the millions they want to spend on HS2 to the north on the basis it will remove domestic flights, yet that money would be better spent making improvements to the rail network which would benefit more people than HS2 ever will.

    And you are right Simon about the likes of O’Leary’s Ryanair bringing air travel cheaply to the masses, but then can you blame the young lad in the Panorama program for being able to get to all those places for a few quid.


    SimonRowberry
    Participant

    Airpocket – you’re completely right, of course. Having been to both China and India recently, I worry enormously about the effect of ‘traditional’ energy sources upon climate change , increasing (almost exponential) car ownership, the development of the Tata, etc, etc. And not just in Chindia.

    I also agree that any revenues should be used for the purpose for which they’re raised, not just as general taxation.

    NT – you too are right (we are all getting mellow these days, aren’t we?). There is conflicting evidence; however, the climate IS changing. Whether that is cyclical or not, is the major question.

    It is interesting that you mention HS2. I am quite closely involved with the proposal and I am also (as a consultant) responsible for leading the development of the Local Transport Plan for the West Midlands (Birmingham metro area) for the period 2011-2026. It is incredibly difficult, when sustainability is at the top of this (and probably future) Government’s agenda, and yet the amount of capital (already insufficient) we will have available to spend is almost certain to reduce due to worldwide economic conditions. How do we then develop a viable, effective and attractive alternative to private car use? Perhaps the monies raised through APD should be ring-fenced to pay for national non-car transport infrastructure.

    There are no easy answers or solutions to the climate change issue.

    I also don’t blame the young guy who flies everywhere for a quid on Ryanair. I’d do the same in his position (except I won’t line that Mr O’Leary’s pockets on principle). The cheap flights are there. The question is, I suppose, “Should they be?”

    Simon


    MarcusUK
    Participant

    Getting back onto the point…

    the Government have not earmarked or indicated where these monies go. The Dutch Government, Schipol & indeed KLM as 3 different levy Companies, have the decency to state where n how much goes into balancing the carbon trail u use. U can offer to pay on yr ticket, & the funding is clearly directed.

    The UK Government just wants the cash & is greedy.

    WE can make better choices & indeed i have great respect for the comments made on here. I choose KLM for eg as they have made huge efforts for the environment.
    Recycling ON the plane by crews, 90% of all paper to be recycled they use, solar powered trucks & steps at schipol, Take off & landing slots & directions systematised to balance, even their wingtips they added onto all planes 3 yrs ago save 3% fuel output.

    I try to put my business to the ethical, responsible. BA for eg run an old fleet, & have no such initiatives to this extent. Newer aircraft cut emissions considerably.
    One of the EU statistics is that cargo carried by plane, as well as people, carry less emissions & damage to the environment, than travelling by Road, in a car!

    I have been to 50 countries. I see substancial damage in India & China growing (the building of 2 power stations a week), & the USA’s obsessions with fuel burning in their overpowered cars.

    The world order has changed. The most influential are doing little whilst we worry about our dustbins!

    If the government stated where & for what it was spent i wouldn’t mind.
    I will have to pay the EU levy, but i will start my long haul travel from Europe simple as that.
    We will be talking £3-400 to get out of the UK on a premium lng haul flight i charges, Before you pay any actual seat costs!
    Do you really think demand for travel will be less?

    I also know a Lead Merchant banker, who is adamant about the carbon trading system, that has been created out of nothing, & he regards as a false industry, just another method of extracting money.

    This is no more than that.

    My travel choices will change & i shall support the Governments Airlines & Companies that are making a specified effort. It’s what i can do at least…

    The BBC reported i the summer that 80% of all gas enters the environment from cattle wind
    ! I presume that won’t take into account the gas coming out of the wrong end of this obnoxious & patronising team of Ministers we are lumbered with until they are all booted out by the Public soon!


    NTarrant
    Participant

    Simon – good luck with the West Midlands LTP, that can’t be an easy one. There is a danger with some LTP’s that they become documents for officers and cabinet members pet projects which benefit a few rather than a wider audience.

    I agree that APD should be ring fenced and used only to provide non-car transport solutions. Perhaps a system where by money collected from flights from LHR go towards paying for things like the Woking to LHR rail link to provide the direct link to LHR from the south coast.

    As for the cheap Ryanair flights, should there be? That is a good question, there is a danger that fares would rise if they and the likes of Easyjet disappeared. But the start of a good debate!

    That is interesting what KLM does Mark, but BA is not alone in not having recycling or indeed an older fleet. Most passenger flights carry cargo of some description. Even Thomsonfly carries cargo and certainly that should be encouraged.

    There does have to be changes in attitudes and to starting to think about how our life styles should change to take account of climate changes. Increases in APD won’t stop people travelling per se, perhaps they may reduce the amount of travel. Whilst people like you Mark will depart from Europe, as I said before most people won’t have the will or inclination to do that and would rather pay the extra.

    As for carbon off setting, I think this is a bit of a scam and it has been proved to be in a lot of cases. I am not convinced this is the right way to go.


    SimonRowberry
    Participant

    NT – you’re absolutely right about the danger of pet projects for LTPs. We’re developing an assessment framework in the Strategy document against which we can evaluate all competing schemes. We did this successfully with the Regional Funding Allocation 2 which, amongst other things, provided the majority of the funding for New Street Station. We’re actually pretty good in the West Mids. The politicians work well cross-party and across geographial areas, so I hope we continue to be sucessful. Another major project in the West Mids is, of course the BHX runway extension and the Airport NEC Integrtaed Transport Access, which is currently under construction.


    Airpocket
    Participant

    Mark,, I suppose a case could be made along the lines of: on the whole, the Dutch Government is probably more transparent and less corrupt than the incumbent British Government which is why people buying their tix in Holland know where their money is going. It would be interesting to see how Holland and the UK compare on Transparency’s corruption index.


    SimonRowberry
    Participant

    Airpocket, I don’t think it’s an issue of corruption, per se. Incompetence and political expediency, probably. I actually don’t think this is a party political issue (at least it shouldn’t be, as it’s far too bloody important).

    As my wife is Dutch – indeed my parents-in-law live close to Schiphol – I can vouch for the main difference between the two countries. The Dutch have foresight and are prepared to invest in long-term projects. We are not – irrespective of who is in power. It wasn’t any different under the last lot and I doubt whether it will change whomsoever we get in power next year. It’s much more of a cultural issue.

    Simon

    Business Traveller replies:

    For a look at the issues surrounding APD, including quotes from BA, Virgin, Easyjet and Airbus, see our recent special report at:

    http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/special-report-apd,-aviation-and-global-warming


    viking01
    Participant

    What really sticks in my throat is that increasingly I’m having to fly PE, and the tax on PE is the same as in First. (not that I have anything against anyone who flies First, before I’m accused of being a class warrior or just plain envious).

    So firstly (ha ha), how can that make sense? The price of the ticket is five or six times that of PE and the same tax. How punitive is that on PE travellers?

    And secondly, how can it make sense?

    From this Wednesday the tax on PE for “real” long haul (10 hours plus) will rise from £80 on top of all the other taxes and crap we have to pay to £110. And then next year it will go up to £170. (If I’ve got the figures wrong, please tell me and ligten the gloom).

    Just typing this makes me so angry I want to start smashing something, or at least voting against whoever came up with it – but what’s the alternative ? The greener than greener conservatives who think we can make do with a shed somewhere in SW London to fly from, or the Lib Dems who want to tax, what – mansions! (how practical).

    £170 for a bit of extra leg room and some more tier points. I’d feel sorry for holiday makers who for a family of four would have to pay it several times over were it not for the fact that when I am a holidaymaker I won’t pay it – I’ll stay at home (sorry airlines). But for business, you know, trying to build a little wealth for this place and myself I have to travel. For which I am taxed before I’ve even got on the plane to go somewhere to try and do a deal so we make some money here in the UK where I will be taxed out of existence in any case.

    And where does the APD go? No one knows. They aren’t saying.

    Honestly, you could not make it up.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 18 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
Business Traveller March 2024 edition
Business Traveller March 2024 edition
Be up-to-date
Magazine Subscription
To see our latest subscription offers for Business Traveller editions worldwide, click on the Subscribe & Save link below
Polls