Alex on… the future for business class within Europe

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Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 46 total)

  • rferguson
    Participant

    MReedGB I agree. Instead of two product offerings (ie ‘longhaul’ and ‘shorthaul’) there really should be a ‘mid haul’ product for flights of say 3-5 or 6 hours duration).

    Mostly due to it’s acquisition of ex BMI aircraft we have finally started to see a mid-haul product from BA to the ‘near’ east. It would be great if it was extended to the likes of Larnaca or Istanbul. Fly to Larnaca and you get a 767 or airbus with european converter seating. 40 minutes more flying time down the road to TLV or CAI or BEY and you get a nice flat bed. It does seem a little unfair. Although the J class fare difference on these routes do reflect the difference in product.


    IanFromHKG
    Participant

    Irons80 – 27/02/2013 11:19 GMT : I think many of you have answered the question within your points – it’s simply not worth the expense and therefore lack of flexibility for airlines like BA (with a single standardised all-Airbus shorthaul fleet) to loose the flexibility of putting in a fixed business class seat / section. That means the aircraft becomes either limited to certain routes or else they risk business class becoming over or undersold depending on the route and there’s nothing they can do to change it. I think the risk of lost revenue against the reconfiguration costs means they prefer the flexible converter approach.

    Ah, but that is what I was trying to determine with my question – would people be willing to pay a higher premium for a higher differentiation in product? It does sound as though for mid-haul, at least, many posters would be willing to do so. And who knows, with such a product, there could be other additional revenue advantages from making an airline more attractive for connecting flights thereby attracting additional long-haul traffic. So I am not sure you can maintain that there wouldn’t be an overall boost in revenue despite the loss of flexibility. Bear in mind that with a fixed J section, they could fit in a few more Y seats because under the current configuration many more rows have additional legroom (to allow conversion to CE).

    first_class_please – 27/02/2013 12:18 GMT : Ian, can you elaborate on this:-
    On oneworld partners I get premium check-in, lounge access, additional luggage allowance (on every airline except BA, but they will join the oneworld extra-luggage fold on 1 March),
    What is the oneworld extra-luggage fold?

    oneworld recently introduced an additional luggage allowance for emerald members (http://www.oneworld.com/ffp/emerald-privileges). However, this was delayed for British Airways (“For travel originating worldwide on British Airways, or from London’s Heathrow Airport on Iberia, the extra baggage allowance will be available starting 1 March, 2013”). My reference was to BA finally joining the fold (i.e. aligning with the other oneworld airlines) on that 1 March date and allowing emerald members the additional luggage allowance


    IanFromHKG
    Participant

    BTW to illustrate my point about connecting flights… On Monday night the memsahib arrived back from Blighty. We went to Thailand for the weekend, travelling CX economy. I returned to HK, she went on to LHR in BA CW. On landing back in BKK (also BA CW) to connect on to the return leg of her CX Y flight, she decided to upgrade herself to J for the final hop. Although it was the old regional business class seat with limited IFE (several video channels, but no AVOD), she still felt it was worthwhile (and quite right too) – but she wouldn’t have done so just to get a Euroconverter seat…


    LuganoPirate
    Participant

    I can see Business Class going in Europe but being replaced by supplements for sitting in the front, middle seat free, priority boarding (which I wish airlines would provide now for their business class pax) and so on.

    Those airlines who still offer First and rely on transit pax, notably AF, LH and LX will, I think, enhance their business offering into a proper 2 class cabin with more legroom and a wider seat, a bit like the old F/Y offering of years gone by. I don’t believe they will lower their product to that of the LCC’s within Europe.


    TimFitzgeraldTC
    Participant

    A possible reason for the general poor hard product on European Business Class is that if one major airline decides to introduce a superior seat on most routes offered to what we have now across the main players then all the others may have the expense of following. Maybe there is a tacit agreement among the carriers to not do anything about it so as not to raise the game as it were (and go through the expense). As far as the airline is concerned the product is universally the same (hard not soft) and the flexibility in there eyes gets them greater revenue abilities. Cycnical maybe?

    Some good points on both sides of the arguement. I see it going either way – as LP says above with supplements for preferential seating (like Easyjet) or a big carrier going for the proper hard product and others following (BA,LH,LX,AF,IB, KL,SK??)

    Lots of people have mentioned TK on here. I have a client who does this quite often in Business and I mentioned to him some of the LHR-IST services have the A330/340 aircraft and a flatbed against the BA European seat. Even as a BA Exec member he has realised there is no comparison – TK are streets ahead (and the fare for these flights is slighly higher in Business than BA)


    EU_Flyer
    Participant

    A very interesting discussion.

    One thing that occurred to me is that the position of the UK, at the far west of Europe, means that most sectors into Europe are at least 1.5 hours long up to 4 hours for Athens and 5 for Istanbul.

    Hubs such as FRA, PAR and ZRH are more centrally located within Europe meaning that the average sector time is probably lower and they rely more on people connecting 2 shorter (1-1.5 hour each) flights via their hubs.

    On this basis, I can’t see LH, AFand LX adding larger seating for J class for 1.5 hour flights. BA therefore are under no commercial pressure to do it either as their continental competitors wouldn’t be offering anything better.

    Plus the felixibility the movable curtain gives airlines is invaluable. What it means is that if you’re in the first few rows of Y class, the pitch is the same as J but you have the potential discomfort of having someone next to do.

    Asia is different as the average sector length is longer than Europe and can therefore justify the larger seats

    Any thoughts?

    P.S I prefer the emergency exit seating on the A320s and 737s. Better pitch than J class and given that I can pre-choose them, much better value.


    AMcWhirter
    Participant

    Thank you for so many interesting comments.

    One fact I forgot to mention was the fact that two national airlines did try proper wide seating in a fixed cabin.

    Some 20 years ago, KLM and Swissair offered proper wide business class seats on their inter-European flights. These seats were similar to the then US domestic first class seat.

    But the wide seating in a fixed cabin failed because, as some of you have noted, it couldn’t cope with the peaks and troughs of inter-European business travel. So KLM and Swissair reverted to the flexible cabin concept.

    In the early 90s business class was much more popular than today because the airlines devised tariff rules to make it so. It was, of course, a time when there were no budget airlines.

    It was not uncommon in those days for carriers like BA and SAS to fill 80 or 90 per cent of the seating on peak time UK-Scandinavia flights with business class passengers.

    But today is different. Perhaps a fixed cabin might work because business class is not so popular and therefore passenger numbers can be better managed.

    Maybe that’s why, as noted previously, Lufthansa is examining proper seating just as KLM and Swissair did in the early 90s.


    Stringfellow
    Participant

    Speaking as somebody who pays his own fair most of the time I am very surprised that Business in Europe still exists as a product and it seems to be now frequented by those who do not care what the flight costs. I am a regular flyer between Brussels and London and it is almost guaranteed that Business is filled by people who work for the European Union. The Geneva – London flight is the same with UN staff.
    What is amusing to me is how little it gains one to fly Business, as has been said above – centre seat empty and a poor meal served by staff rushing to get it out in time. On the Brussels flight I have even seem them not serve all the people at times the Captain has put his foot down and the flight has been shorter than anticipated.
    For flights over four hours I am happy to pay for the benefits of Business and when flying for more than ten First is an obvious choice but for Europe ? Not a choice.


    EU_Flyer
    Participant

    This will be controversial but…

    Business Class also exists so that people flying towards a busy day of work or flying home after a busy day of work have no risk of sitting next to Mr and Mrs We’re Going on a Holiday with our 3 kids or that Aussie 24 year old who’s travelling through Europe on his Oneworld RTW fare and hasn’t had a shower for a few days (that was me 10 years ago…minus the shower bit).

    Business Class is there to keep us close to our own kind and away from those people… you know… behind the curtain down the back.


    Stringfellow
    Participant

    AlexUpgrade

    A nice idea but regretfully there are as many ‘oiks’ in Business as in Economy these days. As an example my recent flight from Abu Dhabi to Brussels in Business where my neighbours spent the flight making lewd comments about the stewardess, drinking excessively, breaking wind and generally being obnoxious. My son who was in Economy on the same flight (long story ) described his trip as “relaxing and enjoyable” as he spent the time chatting to a retired couple who were returning from a holiday in Australia.


    EU_Flyer
    Participant

    Stringfellow

    A very good point indeed. I have been in both your position and your son’s many times.

    I remember flying from Bangkok to Melbourne in Business Class on an overnight flight with Qantas. Last minute, as a treat I used points to upgrade and was really looking forward to 9 hours of good food, wine, movies and zzzz. Instead I was stuck next to a guy who badly wreaked of alcohol, was semi comatosed but still wouldn’t shut up about how much he hated flying, Qantas, Kangaroos, sunsets (the list went on).

    During dinner he chatted with his mouth full and wouldn’t take the hint when I put not 1 but 2 pairs of noise cancelling headphones on my head and he eventually passed out such that I couldn’t access the aisle from my window seat without crushing him to death (which I later considered…many times) with my 195cm 120kg frame. Did I mention the snoring, which many passengers and crew mistook for an emergecy decompression.

    At breakfast time he’d sobered up by which time I, busting to go to the loo and dehyrdrated, was looking like death. The idea of scrambled eggs made me want to throw up. I had a headache and was suffering borderline DVT. His attempt to strike up more conversation was met by a look of death and threat to stick his complimentary amenity pack where the sun don’t shine.

    Should have stuck to Y class.


    Stringfellow
    Participant

    A colleague of mine has retold the story many times of his flight from New York to London in the company of a ‘celebrity’ in First Class on BA. I will list it here from memory as best I can:

    Our hero settles himself into his seat pleased to have paid the extra to have a comfortable First seat for a change

    ‘Celebrity’ boards complete with goon who tells our hero he is sitting in “Ms X’s seat” and to “move it buddy”. A check of boarding cards reveals this to be untrue so my colleague asserts his rights and refuses to move.

    Goon asks if he is “looking for trouble” while Ms X taps her feet and asks to the cabin in general how long she will be kept waiting. BA staff ask if he will move, he says no, Miss X insists, goon insists, he tells goon to “go boil his head”.

    BA Cabin Director takes charge, tells Miss X (nicely) to sit in her allocated seat, tells goon to get back to Economy, apologies to our hero and everyone settles back for take off.

    During the course of the flight said goon made four more trips to First trying to get him to move with one very overt threat of violence while Miss X made the crews life a general hell with numerous requests, complaints and demands including memorably one to ask the captain to “fly smoothly during lunch”.

    During the later part of the flight one of the stewardesses admitted the ‘celebrity’ was hated by BA staff and they were pleased he had refused he demands.

    At the de-planing in London he was pushed and shoved by both of them as they moved to baggage reclaim.


    canucklad
    Participant

    I remember flying with a brash and loud colleague, who thought he was a bit of a comic…….

    Think Del Boy Trotter, with a bit of Ab Fab attitude thrown in…….

    Sitting down, just in front of the curtain, I was horrified when he roared out like a sexually frustrated bull…….

    ” keep those goats quiet back there “

    Especially since the first row in Y was occupied by what looked like the front row for Munster!!


    CXDiamond
    Participant

    I have also heard that Lufthansa are reconsidering their business class offering in Europe and that there will be something happen after mid-year. I understand too that Swiss are considering a very similar proposition but at present Austrian are not.

    Lufthansa will offer the service on almost all routes to Frankfurt and Munich. One of the ways that it will be accommodated is the tightening of seat pitch in the remainder of the cabin.

    Lessons have been learned from the likes of Singapore Airlines and the integrity of the cabin will be protected and in all but the most exceptional circumstances, upgrades will not happen and if they do, passengers will be seated in the back row and offered economy class service.

    It will be interesting to see how others react. Lufthansa already offer Europe’s best first class service though business class is disappointing and having tried their new seat but it’s no worse for instance than club world.


    critical999
    Participant

    I woud suggest that we are already paying premium rates for glorified

    economy class\seating

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