[Irons80]

I think many of you have answered the question within your points – it’s simply not worth the expense and therefore lack of flexibility for airlines like BA (with a single standardised all-Airbus shorthaul fleet) to loose the flexibility of putting in a fixed business class seat / section. That means the aircraft becomes either limited to certain routes or else they risk business class becoming over or undersold depending on the route and there’s nothing they can do to change it. I think the risk of lost revenue against the reconfiguration costs means they prefer the flexible converter approach.

I think whether we like it or not, the airlines have found a status-quo which works for them, for now.

[Bath_VIP]

When I travel by train, my personal rule is that if the journey is over 2 hours, i will go first class provided the price is not silly and the first class offering is clearly better than sitting in standard class. I would love to apply the same rule when travelling by air but European carriers basically fall down on both points especially the latter.

The US is definitely better here and personally I thought that AirTran had the right idea by offering a proper 38″ pitch seat in 2 x 2 layout but giving you the same service as economy and pricing the seat according to demand. Unfortunately SouthWest have bought out AirTran and intend to phase this product out.

[VintageKrug]

I’ve flown AirTran “First”.

Never again. Never.

[r ryan]

Agree that a proper business class would be attractive. Given that most of us have lounge access, priority check in etc regardless of class of travel, the only real extra on a short Euro flight currently is the empty seat next to you.

Wanting to use points, I just checked on Miles and More for a flight Zurich-Berlin and back in business. It would burn 45,000 points and cost 188 Swiss Francs in “taxes”. I can BUY a seat for less than the taxes on the redemption

Same day, same flight, an economy seat is 119 Swiss Francs (return) ( So a lot of points, plus cash, just for an empty middle seat and a ‘meal-ette’.

Often better food in the lounge than onboard these short flights anyway.

If business had proper seats and space, that could be another thing. Swissair used to have a dedicated section of cabin, with proper 2+ 2 seats. Admittedly slightly dodgy DC9’s and MD80’s, but at least the engines were at the back in steerage so a nice quiet ride at the front!

[first_class_please]

Ian, can you elaborate on this:-

On oneworld partners I get premium check-in, lounge access, additional luggage allowance (on every airline except BA, but they will join the oneworld extra-luggage fold on 1 March),

What is the oneworld extra-luggage fold?

i`ve travelled previously with BA and the helpful 3 piece business class allowance, then transferred to CX and its 30KG.

The “most significant carrier” baggage rule isn`t understood by most check in agents i find.

[alexlondon]

I always travel business class (mainly BA Club Europe on European flights, although Swiss and Aegean too – my preferred cabin for Athens). I usually feel I am given dreadful value for money, but continue to do it. And continue I will. Why? Simply because the – slightly – more space enables me to either work more effectively, or relax more effectively, depending on my priorities. I would much prefer a better equipped cabin but I just doubt the European market would pay those fares (I booked yesterday a return in Cathay Pacific HKG-SIN in Business for over £1600. I know I will have a great experience but couldn’t justify that all the time).

If European airlines cannot improve the hard product, it should really focus on the soft product. IMHO there is always at least one course/dish too few, and there should be a drinks run after the meal and a chocolate to have with coffee. Can’t cost much but it is those differences that are valued. That will create a market again for those who don’t want to join the rush down to the standards of the low cost carriers and still want a degree of comfort and good service when they fly, and are willing to pay for it.

[Str8Talking]

I had high hopes a while back when Iberia introduced their Business Club product which they now only use on mid-haul flights, that it could kick start a bit of a product revolution on shorthaul business class product.

http://www.iberia.com/gb/business-club/vip-parking/

Unfortunately, it was left to that, a mid-haul product used on North African and Middle Eastern routes. It shines next to most European business class product, but lags behind the new Club World product that BA uses on their A321 aircraft to the Middle East. Yet, certain other mid-haul routes still get very old and tired 767s with European configuration. I guess mid-haul flights will always be controversial on that score.

[ScottWilson]

Another example of short haul business class which shows high standards is Australia, the flight times are little different (only Perth and Darwin routes are akin to flights to say Moscow or Cairo from London), but standards have gone up because a relatively new entrant that started as a LCC (Virgin Australia) is out to skim the serious profits of the encumbent (Qantas). No European home markets have two full service carrier competitors serving a network of routes from their hubs. It is the home carrier (i.e. BA, AF, LH) and LCCs, or the home carrier and its foreign counterpart.

For me short haul business is either about connecting to a long haul (and as such I want the extra space to relax at the start or end of a long trip), or a value proposition that makes it worthwhile.

Like others, I have lounge access through status for both OneWorld and Star Alliance, so lounge, baggage, premium checkin mean nothing to me for business class, what matters is space, comfort and (to a lesser extent) catering.

That means a dedicated cabin with seats that recline properly, with decent legroom. The new WTP+ seats, or the QF premium economy seats would be ideal for that, with similar pitch. Enough so you’re not crammed in, especially if the person in front reclines, and enough recline so if it is the end of the day and you’re exhausted you can nap. On longer routes there is more scope to be more competitive, e.g. Sydney-Perth flights (4-5 hours) now have angled lie flat seats with Virgin Australia and QF has announced fully lie flat business class on that route.

Catering likewise should be better than long haul economy, and give enough reason to not mind if you didn’t eat before or after the flight. Austrian seems to do this quite well.

[rferguson]

Ahhhh european ‘Business Class’.

I guess a number of things have to be taken into consideration when considering if it is worth the extra. First and foremost, how much more is the fare? I recently went online to buy my parents some tickets from LHR to Marseille (they have long been booted off of my staff travel and replaced with friends hehe). They are retired and can travel any day of the week so I was just in search of the cheapest day and time which I found and purchased. Before the final payment page I was given the option to pay to ‘upgrade’ the whole trip, or just a single sector. It was £89 each way. In my opinion an £89 premium for 2×2 seating, enhanced catering, lounge access and four times the EC Tier Points seemed worth it. Would I pay ridiculous amounts of money (three/four times the economy fare)? No way.

I don’t think we will ever see US/Mid East style ‘fixed’ J class seating on shorthaul flights within europe. Because the competitive market doesn’t require it. The J class ‘converter’ seats give airlines the maximum amount of flexibility and revenue earning potential. And ALL of them use this type of seating. So if BA was to introduce fixed US style J seats on a LHR-FRA flight how many J seats would they configure the aircraft with? And what about the revenue opportunities lost because of the increased demand on J seats in the morning and evening peaks and the minimal J class traffic at weekends or off-peak times? And more importantly, will J class passengers from Lufthansa abandon them and their inferior converter seats and pay a higher fare to BA to sit in a fixed ‘proper’ J class seat for 60 minutes? Unlikely. There does seem to be exceptions to this rule though. Like BA’s route to Moscow from LHR. BA changed from Club Europe/Eurotraveller 767’s and A320’s to 747’s and 767’s complete with flat beds and long haul catering. Not because it was responding to enhancements to Aeroflot’s offerings. But quite simply because the Russians are prepared to pay ridiculous prices to sit in a First or Club World seat. Club World fares are 35% higher than what Club Europe fares were this time last year on the Moscow route and BA are having no problems filling the cabins.

[canucklad]

All your comments are well founded, let me throw another factor into the pot……

How many of you work for a company that has a travel policy, with preffered carriers etc….

The one short haul route that you would have thought could have maintained a business cabin is EDI-LHR……proven by the fact that BD kept the cabin on this route whilst dropping it on it’s other routes….

Ultimattely it also changed to some odd hybrid!!…because my company, along with RBS + a few others I know about altered their business travel policy……anything under 4 hours and you were expected to book Y class, or in the case of my lot….save the planet and let the train take the strain !

The primary reason companies are prepared to pay higher for business class is the flexability of ticket, my company now has a rule that I need to give the finance dept notice of flight travel before they authorise the expense of the ticket!

And oddly if I had maintained the frequency of flights with BD , excepting holidays with our new policy ….flying every week I would not have achieved Gold Status !

[canucklad]

All your comments are well founded, let me throw another factor into the pot……

How many of you work for a company that has a travel policy, with preffered carriers etc….

The one short haul route that you would have thought could have maintained a business cabin is EDI-LHR……proven by the fact that BD kept the cabin on this route whilst dropping it on it’s other routes….

Ultimattely it also changed to some odd hybrid!!…because my company, along with RBS + a few others I know about altered their business travel policy……anything under 4 hours and you were expected to book Y class, or in the case of my lot….save the planet and let the train take the strain !

The primary reason companies are prepared to pay higher for business class is the flexability of ticket, my company now has a rule that I need to give the finance dept notice of flight travel before they authorise the expense of the ticket!

And oddly if I had maintained the frequency of flights with BD , excepting holidays with our new policy ….flying every week I would not have achieved Gold Status !

[MarcusUK]

I agree much with those comments above.

Many contributing to BT on here travel and pay for their own tickets, for private / leisure reasons, as well as being funded by Company travel. Fares at 4x the economy fare + in Europe, are no longer justifiable. Those days are gone.

Those of us with frequent Flyer cards, still have the perks, paid check in, priority baggage, Fast track security and immigration, and the best perk…the lounges!
We also still get the best seats, and a reward in miles whatever fare you pay. I am very happy with Flying Blue (AF/KLM) that enable 30 flights a year regardless of fare paid, to renew a Gold card, not just on miles.

Without your Company paying, would you really pay for Europe Business class for you and your travel companions / family, for flights of 1-2 hours?

Long haul yes, short haul, and on flights where you can buy the extras these days on low cost Airlines, it is of little value.

I do enjoy Asia, where for a few hours on Regional flights, you can still travel business class in great seats, long haul standard experiences on board, and on large spacious luxurious aircraft.
The bus services to and from Europe will remain, the past is gone.

I still think, the greatest perk we all savour, is the Airline Lounge, and really makes my flights get off to a great start, and feel like my Club Membership reward for any Airline.

[alexlondon]

Marcus, to answer your question, yes. I am self employed and don’t bill clients for travel costs. I always fly business class on short haul flights (where available). When travelling with my wife, I only travel business class. When travelling with my wife and three kids (aged 8,6 and 5), I struggle to justify it (although there is a balance. I have just upgraded the five of us on our return soon from Istanbul at a cost of circa £500. That extra is worth it for the bit more comfort my wife and I will have. To upgrade the outward flight is over £1000 which I won’t do). I totally agree that the premium is not good value for money but I can’t be the only one to keep paying it. I often say ‘never again’ but then experience economy and value the slight advantages that Club provides. I feel there must be a market for those willing to pay for a bit more exclusivity, but there needs to be more of a differentiator in the soft product. Otherwise, I accept that people like me may be a dying breed and just won’t pay the extra for what is very little – since most of us will have all the ground benefits anyway.

[Henkel.Trocken]

I was told very recently that before too long we will see a change of direction from LH where shorthaul business class is concerned. This will be once the non-hub routes have gone to Germanwings.

I understand that there will be a shift in thinking as quietly they acknowledge that NEK has been a disaster for C class travel generally but particularly to FRA and MUC. Effectively they have gone from having the best C class offering to the worst overnight. (We could have all told them that 24 hours after NEK was introduced!)

I believe we are looking at a 12-20 seat cabin depending on whether it’s an A319/320/321 of 2×2 seats which are not convertible and are similar to old C class recliners though they will be a modern lighter version of them. There will be a decent food offering too which will do away with the nonsense of the recent past and stop looking like it is the end of day reductions from Aldi.

In short, they intend to make it work, the fares will not be stupid and you can expect the average return ticket to cost around £400/500 depending on the route, lower for a single leg journey and at the higher end if there is a connection.

The only competition they have for similar service at the moment is from Turkish who while they charge a little more than airlines with convertor seats/middle seat free, do not charge silly amounts either considering the differentiation in the hard product and the Do&Co catering.

There remain rumours of stronger integration between LH and TK so maybe this is part of it.

[MReedGB]

..personally it is a shame that European airlines could not get it right like US or Asian carriers regarding regional C class product in Europe…I know cost in Asia are far more cheaper etc..blah blah blah…but personally I find it a very cheap excuse for premium European pax…as you can’t get really comfortable with the seat onboard as you just get an economy seat with the middle seat blocked, less recline etc…for a short hop around 1 hour to 1 hour 1/2 it is okay but not worth the money !! for a longer route like LHR to IST or LCA with such an inferior product…just disgusting!! It would be really great and I am sure some will pay the right price, if premium pax will get a great and spacious seat…the European airlines should consider this in the future

[Author]

Posts