[Anonymous]

[AMcWhirter]

http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/101041/klm-revamps-b777-economy-seating

Many of you will have read the above news piece we posted last Friday concerning KLM’s revamped economy class. With the exception of ourselves, this development has received little publicity outside of Holland.

The new long-haul economy class seating will eventually be fitted across KLM’s entire fleet of B777s. (The carrier has yet to decide on seating arrangements for its other long-haul aircraft).

Will other European carriers follow KLM in the years ahead ?

Slim-line seats are already offered by a number of other carriers (British Airways and Lufthansa being two examples) on short flights.

But KLM is, perhaps, the first European carrier to install them on long-haul B777s.

Slim-line seats allow the airline to offer both the ability to squeeze in more seats abreast (from nine to 10 on a B777) and bunch the rows closer together. You gain a little more leg and knee-room but at the expense of having more fellow passengers surrounding you.

The seat count on one of KLM’s B777-200ER is actually reduced slightly.

KLM is using these Recaro-manufactured slim-line seats to increase the number of Economy Comfort seats but, crucially, to allow installation of flat-bed business class seating which takes up more space.

KLM’s official B777-200ER seat plan (see below) reveals that business class now extends (by one row only) into the forward Economy Comfort zone.

So as we have seen before, space is being taken from economy and given over to business class.

What will passengers make of it ? Although slim-line seating may be acceptable on short flights within Europe, how will it fare on a 12 hour flight to the Far East ? Judging by the photos, these new seats appear awfully thin.

So is this the future of long-haul Economy class ?

KLM B777-200ER seat plan. Source: klm.com

http://www.klm.com/travel/gb_en/prepare_for_travel/on_board/seating_plans/777-200ER.htm

[SimonS1]

In the quest to save weight I don’t know why airlines don’t dump the in flight magazine.

I can’t remember the last time I actually saw someone open one and it would save paper as well as flying tons of magazines around the world non stop.

[Tom Otley]

They’re always reading Business Traveller.

[MrMichael]

I have experienced the new seats on LH, Swiss, BA and Easyjet, all short/medium haul. My recent experience on Easyjet entailed me sitting on this type of seat for just over five hours. I found it reasonably comfortable, and managed to doze a bit, but I did have the extra legroom seats at the mid plane emergency exit.

I guess doing a long haul on it would be somewhat uncomfortable, rather depends on any recline available….on the flights I have been on there is no recline. So to be honest I don’t know, I wonder if KLM got people to sit in it for 12 hours or more. One thing my experience has told me, thickness of the seat does not equal the thicker the better. But would rather not be a guinea pig in it or on it.

[WillieWelsh]

I’ve only seen them rather than suffered them but I think the Austrian 772s have the same NEK seats as the shorthaul LH group seats in economy.

It may be the same story as KLM, more space given to business class though the new Austrian business class seats are not an improvement, in fact I’d rather have a recliner back any day than suffer one of those seats again.

[RichardB]

“Slim-line seats allow the airline to offer both the ability to squeeze in more seats abreast “

I thought the “slim” in slim-line referred to how thick the seat is. So doesn’t affect how many seats across there will be. NEK and BA slim line seats on short haul seem the same width as before.
When there are more rows abreast I think the saving comes from the width of the seat not from reducing some barrier between you and the person to your right/left (unlike with the thickness of the backrest).

[1nfrequent]

It all comes down to price at the end of the day. If KLM are offering competitive economy fares then people will suck it up and take the seats regardless of how uncomfortable or cramped they might be. People vote with their wallets at the moment. Sadly though, if KLM make a success out of it the other carriers will no doubt follow suit. Seems to me that for economy passengers now, airlines are on a race to the bottom vis passenger comfort.

1F

[canucklad]

I’ll remain open minded on the subject. Extra legroom is always welcome, a better IFE system is a bonus but if the seat resembles sitting in your local GP’s surgery than I’m afraid KLM will have lost my custom for long haul flights to the east and west!! Especially if the contentious issue of recline has been reduced or indeed removed.
And I’m afraid that 1nfrequent’s point is spot on.

“ Y” do legacy carriers think that they can treat those of us at the back of a plane, no different to what’s under the floor. Just a basic commodity rather than a fare paying passenger. I’m surprised they haven’t started to weigh their human cargo yet. Yes the profit margin might be less than those near the nose, but the disparity is becoming wider and wider. Ironically, those same airlines continually apply inventive ancillary charges to make flying in their “Y” class not comfortable but just bearable. Sadly the most pertinent point made is that someone somewhere will encourage the airlines to treat them like cattle.

Oh and if anyone from KLM reads Simons post, please ignore….. : )

The Holland Herald will probably be one stand out feature that stand s head and shoulders above your mediocre 10 across cabins with now bus like seats, your blackmail add-ons and not forgetting your disloyal flying Blue programme , so please don’t remove a decent distraction.

[Tallinnman]

Suffered 11.5 hours on Lufthansa’s newest long haul aircraft 747-8 in economy 2 weeks ago. Whilst not a ‘slim’ seat it has some of the features and it was an abysmal experience and this in the future? Luckily had Cathay back to Europe and whilst it says 1 inch difference in seat pitch, it felt like a mile.

KLM’s new product just excludes them from any kind of consideration for future long haul travel – at least while there are alternatives for me.

[LetsFlyNow]

Yes Tallinnman

Indeed the economy seat on LH 747-8 is pretty much what KLM’s new offering is.

[GenerationY]

Hello all,

I have been a passive reader of this nice website but from now on would like to be a bit active, especially in discussion such as this.

I would refrain from early judgment. After all it is the latest version of economy seat out there, and I am sure the company that produces the seat have accumulated feedback from airlines regarding their previous products to improve their subsequent productions.

In keeping the positivity up, I find the overall design as great. I love that KLM uses different colours combination for their seat instead of just plain black or navy blue or grey, and the IFE improvements is a good news. Combining these factors with their service approach, I personally looking forward to experience the new KLM intercontinental armada.

[IanFromHKG]

I sat in the new BA seats (which seem similar) from Helsinki to London, a bit over three hours, and that was already some way over the length of time I could remain comfortable. The real problem, as I see it, is that even if your body shape, height and weight conforms perfectly to the average frame the seat was designed for, there simply isn’t enough padding – and if you aren’t standard size the shape of the seat becomes an issue that is exacerbated by the lack of padding. It is bearable in short haul, but the idea of sitting on that for long haul flights fills me with horror. But then the idea of flying Ryanair fills me with horror too, and plenty of people seem prepared to do that…

[MrMichael]

Horses for courses Ian. On average I would say around 75% of people on long haul travel economy class rather then the premium cabins. Only one reason for that, price, I doubt many people would travel economy if they felt they could afford a premium product. The price of a business class ticket is generally about four times that of econ, and that difference could well be more than the budget to spend when they get there. I have never flown premium cabin on long haul, but look forward to doing so in the spring. I got a pretty good price by booking from Oslo, but for myself and MrsMichael am spending around £3000 more for the tickets than if I had booked economy. For our six week jaunt around Oz that equates if I budgeted the same money around £75 less spending money per day to spend on hotels, food, internal travel etc. Generally I would prefer to do just that, go for better hotels that I will spend some considerable time in over my six weeks and suffer the 48 hours of indignity and torcher that is the long haul flights in economy. Might only be 75 quid, but if I was going for the bog standard two weeks and had paid the full BA price the difference would have been a whopping great £425 per day. I can have some serious fun and pampering for that.

[Tallinnman]

Generation Y – I’m not sure the airlines are looking to improve their product in Y. Rather, they appear to make wafer thin margins, a large number of economy flyers appear to be very price sensitive and increasingly they appear to be run by accountants who find long haul passengers to be ‘bunnies’ and therefore suitable for thinner, smaller, narrower and closer together seating. At least with KLM the seat is colour coordinated 🙂
The threat of ‘low cost’ long haul might be a cause. Equally the ‘success’ of competitors already flying higher density economy classes could lead to a ‘lemming’ effect. Hey, maybe it even works financially, so why shouldn’t the airlines improve their miserable returns.

[Author]

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