[AsiaPacific]

Wild goose…. thankyou for returning to comments about the topic.
I agree with some of yr comments, but suggest why just the 14 countries ???… surely that is a very ‘blinkered’ view.. should be all people who may pose a threat … what if the guys who drew up the list left off a country ? Where are you then ? Also just looking at people who may have been students in Uk is also a little blinkered again i think… the authorities I feel are likely to get a nasty shock when the next plot is uncovered and its from somewhere we never even imagined… one thing about assuming is …. it invariably makes an “ass” of one… I still am uncomfortable with men on planes with guns…. but that’s my choice I guess and we can agree to differ… also lets disagree about whether a “leftie” is “this ” , “that” , or the “other”…. I think all the stereotyping of individuals, nations, religions, etc is part of the problem…. better to be aware that problems may arise from anywhere these days… so best not to be ‘blindsided’ with pre-conceived ideas…
Thanks again for getting back on topic…

[Wildgoose]

Is it a “blinkered” view if those 14 countries have ‘form’? I’m referring, of course, to Iran (supporters of Hizbullah), Syria (ditto), Saudi Arabia (where most of the 11/9 terrorists came from), Pakistan (the 26/7 four, amongst others) etc.,
True, the next attack might come from anywhere but what are the odds that the terrorists will be from one of those 14 countries?Quite high, I would imagine. Yes, there is the off chance that homegrown terrorism in the US might resurface but we haven’t had any serious attempts since that bocthed attempt to assasinate Obama during his campaign.
As I have said earlier, the colour of my skin now ensures that I will be questioned throughly when I arrive in the US. I can’t do anything about that, it is now just something I have to get used to. I’m neither Muslim nor have I ever visited the the Arab world, apart from Dubai.

[AsiaPacific]

I think my point was that it was blinkered to “only” consider those 14 countries… how about radicalised disenchanted potential terrorists from the EU or other parts further east???
I am also a little unsure why you keep referring to yourself and your colour? Is this somehow to convince us you are non-partisan ? Quite frankly I take people as they are… skin colour, accents, wealth etc does not make you a “wally” or not… Wallies i have discovered are in every country all over this wide world… in all shapes and forms… again .. thank you for staying on topic…

[Wildgoose]

AsiaP-Well,yes, we do still have the problem of Basque separatists and IRA splinter groups but I don’t recall the last time they hijacked a vessel or flew it into a building.
Further east, we’ve got Islamic terrorists in the Philippines and southern Thailand and lets not forget the Naxalites/Maoists in India but their modus operandi is different from al-Qaeda’s.
The point I’m making about skin colour is that people of a certain hue will always be singled out in the US. Pigmentation is not an issue for you and it is not an issue for me (I’ve been mistaken for Iranian, Lebanese, Maori, Spanish, Greek, Italian, Pakistani…and, piece de resistance,as a heavily tanned Englishman!), I take most comments about it with a wry smile.However, to the INS agent at JFK it IS going to make a difference. A blonde Australian surfer type is unlikely to be asked too many questions whereas a swarthy chap in a suit with an odd name will certainly be asked more detailed questions, at the very least.
I’m not partisan in that I am not on anyone’s side in this instance (otherwise,though, I am on the side of the passenger who would be ripped off and/or misguided by spin and hypebole spewed out by certain airlines). I’m just calling it as I see it.

[AsiaPacific]

Fair comments… the points you raise about profiling and asking questions to the pax who come from specific groups that tend often to be stereotyped raises the exact issues that concern me about the security or lack of in the US. It seems to be living in the 1950’s .. ie. we know where our enemies are coming from so we’ll not really worry about the others too much. For goodness sake .. the US immigration don’t even appear to check who leaves the country… unless its changed recently… my fear is that this apparent ‘less than thorough approach’ based on stereotypes leaves a hole in the security large enough to drive a truck through….

[Wildgoose]

UK Immigration, or, whatever they call themselves now, don’t check departing passengers either. It would appear that the systems on both sides of the Atlantic are lax and need tightening up. Question is, do the US and UK have a) the finances for this and b) well-trained personnel for this?
Another dimension to terrorism on US soil will be added by the increasingly daring Mexican narco-terrorists. I’m not entirely sure how they will be tackled. Anyway, I fear ‘thread creep’ is taking root (i.e. I’m veering off the topic)!

[SimonRowberry]

Wildgoose. Your continuing references to me force me to respond. I am not a hypocrite at all. If YOU had bothered to read my post properly, I was defending the right for everyone to say whatever they think. HOWEVER, you have been abusive to a number of people on this thread, and I was suggesting that such an approach has no place here (notwithstanding my retaliatory abuse towards you).

I agree with others that we should be adult on this site. What is interesting is that in your later posts, when you have toned down your confrontationism a little, you make some very good points which, incidentally, I wholly agree with.

For your information, I am a white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant. However, I too have a dark complexion. Like you, I also have been mistaken for having pretty much the same range of racial origins over the years as you have been. I am always the person who has his passport run through the reader when all the fair haired people around me are waved through, so I empathise with your comments on this. This is particularly annoying at UK passport control, when often the person running my passport through is wearing a turban or is otherwise clearly from an ethnic group themselves. It is hard at such times not to feel shameful and unacceptable racist thoughts. It is also especially apparent when I travel with my young son, who is blond and blue-eyed.

Your points about the wide range of terrorist threats that we face are (generally) well-made. This comes back to the point that I and one or two others have made on this thread – there is no real physical solution in terms of prevention of such acts, as there will always be loopholes to exploit.

My argument is (and it is not a Guevaran attitude at all) that we need to be also addressing the root causes of the problem (as we did, no matter how unpalatable it was at times, in respect of Northern Ireland). The problem seems to be that the (at least the former) US administration viewed any form of dialogue (or even suggestion of that) as a sign of “weakness,” and any form of criticism of their policy approach, no matter how constructive, as “anti-Americanism.” I also largely agree with oldchinahand’s analysis of the former administration and the current. I do not suggest for a moment that such political initiatives will be easy, particularly given the spread of threats that you identify, before I am criticised for being naive. My argument is that the political dimension is as, if not more, important than any “physical security” measures if we are to achieve long-term solutions. Arguably, a further dimension is military force, but far be it from me to comment on this….

Hope this clarifies what you clearly misread as a Marxist analysis. It’s a lot easier to agree with you when you stick to your well-made points and stop sniping at other posters. I, and many others, had hoped that we had got away from such behaviour on the Forum, thus my earlier retaliatory posts towards you. I don’t wish to censor yours or anyone else’s views, no matter how contrary they are to mine. I just want such views to be put across with courtesy and tolerance towards others and their opinions, not. peppered with snide comments simply because someone thinks differently. As Jonathan says, the post that you had deleted by the Administrator must’ve been pretty off, as this happens very rarely indeed.

[SimonRowberry]

To make a very detailed point. I would greatly welcome full security checking at the entrance to each boarding gate. I have long been concerned that, given the sheer volume of goods and working personnel that come into the Departure Lounge of most airports, as they increasingly resemble shopping malls where you catch planes, that this is a potential major loophole. I don’t know the extent to which all goods are examined and staff checked, and logic would suggest that it varies country to country.

This must represent the Achille’s heel for most airports, as effective security must be very difficult in the larger airports, given the sheer volume of daily goods and staff. It seems ludicrous to have controls on liquids in hand baggage when one can purchase duty-free bottles airside which are “assumed” to be safe. The potential for security breaches where goods coming into the airside are tampered with (through collusion) seems to be significant.

Airports such as Istanbul and Baku effectively create a cordon sanitaire by having a second (full) security check as you enter each gate lounge. In Baku this includes a full “naked” body scanner at most gates. Incidentally, at both airports they also check all passengers and baggage before they enter the check-in area, and this is, I guess, intended to prevent attacks at the landside.

A contrast to this is Helsinki, an airport I use regularly. Amazingly, family and friends are able to pass through security control and gain access to the majority of the airport (apart from the non-Schengen gates) because boarding cards are not looked at until the gate lounge. It is considered quite acceptable for passengers’ friends also to meet them at the gate when a plane arrives. I stand to be corrected, but I cannot think of another major airport in Europe where this is permitted (tacitly or otherwise).

[Wildgoose]

My ‘deleted’ post wasn’t “sniping” at a poster. I don’t actually want to take unprovoked potshots at posters, especially ones who make sound points and feel strongly about issues (as do I, obviously).

The points I made, albeit passionately and strongly, were as follows:

1) that entry to the UK for some nationals (I’m talking here about thorugh vetting of visa applicants) from countries with abundant petrodollars (read Saudi Arabia) is far too easy. Do we know how many may have slipped through MI5/MI6’s net?

2) that the UK Government seems far too in awe of the Saudis (al Yamamah anyone? At least the US Justice Department doesn’t care about such things and prosecute, regardless of how close the Bush family were to the Saudi royal family).

3) that there should be thorough checks on British nationals of Pakistani origin who spend too much time on “summer internships for al Qaeda/The Taliban in the NWFP and Afghanistan”.

As far as political solutions to terrorism go, this is an argument for a thread on The New Statesman or The Economist!

However, I will say that certain problems, such as ‘Af-Pak’, are unsolveable and it is only a matter of time before the Government in Islamabad is toppled, either by the Army or by the Taliban.

My comments, from time to time, don’t observe niceties of protocol and are irreverent but, would you have me any other way? :o)

[SimonRowberry]

Your comment about the future direction of Pakistan is, alas, all too true.

[LuganoPirate]

Before we go off to Pakistan, could I just go back to Air Marshalls.

For the record I do not object to them.

Second, if any of you have watched “Mythbusters” you would see they fired a bullet through the window of a plane that had been pressurised to 35,000 ft. The myth was busted when explosive decompression did NOT occur. As a sidenote they did blow the plane eventually but I think it took some dynamite to do so!!!

[Wildgoose]

Maybe Air Marshalls need not resort to firearms in the first instance?Perhaps they could use pepper spray and martial arts to disarm any terrorists?

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