Air France to scrap Joon subsidiary?

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This topic contains 35 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  Swissdiver 18 Jan 2019
at 20:57
.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 36 total)

  • capetonianm
    Participant

    The multiplicity of brand has created complexity and has unfortunately weakened the power of the Air France brand

    That’s what the French do best, create complications and multiplicity where none existed, or needed to exist. They make a thick fog out of a fine mist.
    You only have to look at the average French website, so many bells and whistles and options and gimmicks that you lose sight of the basic functionality.


    christopheL
    Participant

    My dear Capetonianm
    Let me be like you.
    It seems that you are so hateful towards French people that you are loosing all your means when you consult a French website. So sad 🙁
    And yet you continue to consult them and you continue to come to France (I remember your comments on the neighborhood of the Gare du Nord which, according to you, was no better than brixton in the 80s).
    What is the name of this kind of behavior in proper English? Masochism ? Radicalization ? Madness ? More likely stupidity I’m afraid …


    capetonianm
    Participant

    I do understand you may have difficulty expressing yourself coherently, particularly in English. You do seem to be hypersensitive to perceived criticism of anything to do with your country. It’s a little sad when you can’t take criticism, but that is one of the faults of your nationality.

    Joon has failed because it was poorly thought out, didn’t know what it wanted to be or whom it was aimed at. That is acknowledged by the Canadian whom AF brought in as CEO of AF and it was he who made the comment “The multiplicity of brand has created complexity and has unfortunately weakened the power of the Air France brand”, so maybe you should be addressing your ire towards him.

    Allow me to correct a couple of your misapprehensions.

    “It seems that you are so hateful towards French people that you are loosing all your means when you consult a French website.”

    That it is simply your unvalidated interpretation. I do, unfortunately from time to time need to use French websites, and they are appalling. This has nothing to do with ‘hate’ towards French people. That is an absurd inference.

    It may have escaped your attention that France is a large country and occupies a rather large chunk of western Europe. It is therefore necessary, for many journeys, to cross French territory, unless you can tell me a (practical) route to travel between Spain and the UK, Belgium, or Netherlands without setting foot in France. Naturally should you be able to assist, I would appreciate the benefit of your superior knowledge and consequent advice on this matter.

    Finally, I am not going to report your posting anonymously for ‘inappropriate content’, that would merely be to stoop to your level. It is however quite inappropriate to label another member of the forum as ‘stupid’, ‘radical’ (whatever that is supposed to mean in this context) or ‘mad’, simply for having an opinion at variance with your own and expressing it.


    christopheL
    Participant

    I have never report a comment especially yours to whom it is so delightful to answer.


    capetonianm
    Participant

    Christophe : If that is true, and I have to believe you, then I apologise and retract that part of my comment above.

    There have been instances where some of my comments have been ‘reported’ and your reply has appeared immediately below mine, leading me, obviously, to conclude that you were the anonymous reporter.

    I have said many times that reporting of comments should not be allowed on this board without the reporter’s name and a reason. I trust the moderators are taking note of this.

    1 user thanked author for this post.

    christopheL
    Participant

    I fully agree with your last comment re. reporting comments.


    CathayLoyalist2
    Participant

    Ton, picking up on Capetonianm´s point of anyone reporting a comment should have their name and reason made visible I think is reasonable. On this forum we are all big boys and girls now and I think it will add more debate. Will you consider this?


    Tom Otley
    Keymaster

    I feel like I weigh a ton after Christmas.

    We have considered it. I think they said it was difficult to do.

    While I understand the argument for doing it, when things get heated on here it doesn’t help if we publicise who is reporting comments.

    Imagine if A and B are arguing with one another in quick reply, insults flying, tempers fraying.

    C reports one or more of the comments because in the heat of the argument someone has said something inappropriate, or so we can simply try and calm things down (and occasionally even close the thread for a few hours to let tempers improve).

    A and perhaps B then attack C for closing it down (on another thread, or the same one). C leaves.

    Or if C, D and E report B’s comment, then B feels ganged up on and leaves.

    Meanwhile I get emails at all times of the day and night saying

    “How can you let this sort of thing go on. You have a responsibility. If you don’t sort it out, I’m leaving!”

    So we’ll see what’s possible and best – but long answer short, we do look at the suggestions posters make to improve the forum.

    I think it’s good at the moment, not so many angry people on here!

    Now I’m going off to not eat something.


    Swissdiver
    Participant

    Wow. What a waste of investment. It lasted literally 13 months.

    It is. I guess it was best to stop it there than continuing spending on a project that failed. Ultimately, it is a matter of company identity. AF, like BA and many others, has its critics. But it also has people enjoying the airline for what it does well: food & wine, good new seat (in Business), … Joon was not bringing much while diluting that image.


    capetonianm
    Participant

    when things get heated on here it doesn’t help if we publicise who is reporting comments.

    I disagree. It would lead to a greater degree of respect and accountability by all parties. I/m not suggesting that you publicise who is reporting comments, anyone who reports a comment will publicise it themselves, and a reason.


    Tom Otley
    Keymaster

    It’s the reason bit that the technology struggles with.

    It would be good if there was a box at the bottom – like the one for tags – that would allow that but we’ll have a look at it.

    I’m not sure you’re right that it will take heat out of the situation but we’ll see.


    Kimi_CDG
    Participant

    Wow… French-bashing season is back. Please wait a bit before adding any post. I need to buy popcorns!

    @capetonianm
    You are obviously free to pour your hate on this forum. It is your right. I’m French myself and get mad each time I think of the rude Parisian waiter who served me a disgusting coffee 4 years ago.

    I would just suggest you use also other forums. The Facebook page of the Sun? Or maybe the Daily Telegraph since you seem quite literate. You’ll find plenty of like-minded people there.
    Too complicated for me though. I’m French and I have “difficulty expressing [myself] coherently, particularly in English”.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Please accept my apologies for the spelling mistakes and the (bad) joke. I don’t mean to offend you.
    And no, I didn’t report your post. I just wish that we focus on the topic.

    I think AF has tried to replicate what the SNCF has done with ID TGV. A subsidiary aimed at trying new ideas that would be too costly with the main company, for example the seating family concept.
    I can’t tell if it was a good idea but it definitely created confusion. Its purpose isn’t clear and there are indeed already too many brands.

    I hope that they will keep this equivalent of the Skycouch though and not only for kids.


    capetonianm
    Participant

    You are obviously free to pour your hate on this forum. It is your right. I’m French myself and get mad each time I think of the rude Parisian waiter who served me a disgusting coffee 4 years ago.

    I would just suggest you use also other forums. The Facebook page of the Sun? Or maybe the Daily Telegraph since you seem quite literate. You’ll find plenty of like-minded people there.

    Before I get back on topic, as you’ve raised a couple of valid points I’ll say this.

    You and your compatriot have accused me of ‘hate’ towards the French. Please understand that criticising, as I frequently, vociferously, and unashamedly do, the way that French government, organisations, companies, and websites work (or don’t work!) does not equate to ‘hating the French’ and it is wrong and unfair for you to conflate the two. It is fair to say that there are things I dislike about the French mentality but to equate that to ‘hating’ the French is unfair and untrue.

    I have also often stated that the French who leave France generally do extremely well particularly in the service and hospitality areas once they are freed from the shackles of French socialism, high taxation, and over-regulation, all of which destroy incentives to succeed.

    I am not sure which part of your posting was meant as a ‘bad’ joke (your words, not mine) but if it was the reference to Facebook and the Sun, I can assure you that I have no interest in either and I do find that offensive, even if it was not meant to be.

    Back to topic, interesting that you mentioned SNCF/IDTGV. I use trains a lot, all over EU and particularly in France as many main routes cross France, and I was confused about IDTGV. It seemed to be a couple of coaches tacked onto the normal TGVs and I never quite got the point, except that it was cheaper. What I found particularly strange was that a couple of years ago some friends who had purchased IDTGV tickets from Nice to Paris tried to board the train at Antibes (which for the benefit of those who don’t know the geography is a shorter journey) and weren’t allowed onto the train, missed it, and had to buy full fare tickets for the next TGV. Consequent upon that they missed their Eurostar from Paris Nord to London and were left considerably out of pocket and inconvenienced. When they asked for an explanation, and I might add that they speak fluent French, they got the Gallic shrug and ‘parce que c’est comme ca’ which is infuriating, and not an answer.

    It now seems that as well as the main SNCF branding, they are competing with themselves with brandings called Ouigo and Ouibus. I am not sure if IDTGV still exists. The SNCF website has become so complicated that when I book rail journeys to/from/via/within France I use a third party website (Loco2 if it’s OK to mention the name) or the websites of neighbouring countries rail networks such as SBB, RENFE, SNCB, which are clear and simple and above all they work. As you correctly said of SNCF :
    “it definitely created confusion. Its purpose isn’t clear and there are indeed already too many brands.”

    Joon by the way was apparently not cheaper than the previous AF fares offering although it tried to give the impression it was. My one attempt to book flights from CPT to AMS using Joon ended up with me giving up and booking KLM through the KLM website.


    Kimi_CDG
    Participant

    It’s just sad that you feel obliged to express your feelings with generalisations. I love this forum because posters defend well-preserved arguments and debates remain friendly and polite.
    Which French websites? What is the equivalent in other countries?
    I always hated SNCF website and have used Captain Train (French btw, now Trainline EU) instead.

    I criticise France, its government and the French companies when they deserve it.

    There are times though when they do good things. AF may be struggling because of suicidal unions but it has managed to improve its business class product. The lounges at CDG are definitely not bad. Some say the First class lounge is one of the best in the world.
    Connections have greatly improve since all operations were moved to T2F and T2E.

    Regarding your example with ID TGV, I find indeed the situation ridiculous but these are the rules. I faced a similar situation in the UK where I was blocked at the gate. Same with ex-EU flights, a topic discussed many times.


    Kimi_CDG
    Participant

    It now seems that as well as the main SNCF branding, they are competing with themselves with brandings called Ouigo and Ouibus. I am not sure if IDTGV still exists.

    It’s a strategy used a lot.
    Renault produces a low-cost car called Logan. In countries where the brand already exists (France, Algeria…), it is sold with the Dacia logo, not to “reduce” the value of the brand.
    In countries like India, it is a Renault Logan.

    OuiGo is a different brand because the customers must understand that the rules are different. Cheaper but tickets are not refundable, there is no bar, no first class…
    As I mentioned before, IDTGV had a different purpose. ID is pronounced the same as “idée” (Idea) in French. SNCF has tried to innovate with this product. With IDTGVMax passes, you could get unlimited IDTGV journeys.
    And no, IDTGV doesn’t exist anymore.

    Again, I’m no marketing expert. It is definitely confusing but it’s not an irrelevant idea from a bureaucratic mind.
    Remember also it has been a way for SNCF to bypass generous (and outdated) rail workers employment status. Same for AF it seems.

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