Air France problems

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  • MarcusGB

    Indeed Alex, and in typical KLM ways, they have a democratic passenger vote to choose a price to lower on 3 routes:

    Rio, NYC, or Jakarta.

    Happy Birthday for KLM, The World’s oldest Airline, and long may your Teams efforts be a flagship for The Dutch and the Industry! Your Team’s achievements are superb in adapting, contributing, and keeping KLM a pleasure to encounter.

    They also have 60% off Business Class flights if booked 3 months in advance, from AMS. I have a peak season just after New Year to Latin. America for only £1,150 return ,superb. Other Airlines nearest, was 4 times this.

    Many thanks KLM!


    I last flew with AF 20 years ago, and the service was zero, attitude to customers a disgrace. I will never ever fly with them again. The cuts in long haul routes are the result of passengers voting with their feet. KLM must have been mad to merge with AF.


    KLM had no choice than to be taken over by AF! At the time i spoke to many KLM staff that regretted this, and after the control of the FFP and attitudes imposed upon them. One Manager told me if they were not talen over, they would have disappeared.

    Perhaps the one positive, is that almost the entire fleet of KLM has been renewed as a result, but thank God they held onto The Dutch branding, for which they rightly are greatly respected, and the Teams themselves hold in high value.

    AF should go away now and show and let successful KLM run itself as a separate entity.


    Happy to see that French bashing is such a popular occupation over here.


    I must confess that French bashing is a popular sport of mine, but to be honest, they ask for it time and time again. The French unions and its members do not respect democracy, they do not respect their own customers, and they do not respect the business they work for. As AnthonyDunn said, if the French are serious about saving their Airline then this is indeed a miners strike scenario. As I said in a previous thread on the subject, a good dose of Thatcherism is what is needed here, not lots of words and then capitulation as soon as the first tyre is set alight. The French really do need to consider that in the 21st century businesses can only survive if competitive on the world stage.


    @ christopheL – 06/10/2015 16:33 BST

    If I didn’t give a toss about what is happening to Air France and the wider French economy, I’d just give a (Gallic?) shrug of the shoulders and move onto the next topic. Instead, I have been to France too many times and have too many friends there to be indifferent. it is variously perplexing, bewildering and deeply troubling to me that a glorious country appears incapable to grasping the horn of change for the benefit of its wider citizenry. You cannot tell me that the current “insider” (massively protected) vs. “outsider” (almost totally unprotected) labour market that France displays is anything other than a con trick on the young by older workers. It is age warfare rather than anything else.

    I deplore hypocrisy from whichever quarter and the attempts by the French trades unions to defend their members comes at the direct cost of almost everyone else and most notably the young. The latter will never be in the position to inherit anything like the same T&Cs as their parents generation.

    If that all counts as “French bashing”, then I plead guilty.


    Sacre bleau Marcus!!

    What other Airline has ever, in The World, displayed such behavior?!!!

    Once upon a time, and not too long ago a wee man crossed the sea from the Emerald Isle to reign over his new kingdom.
    He confidently travelled with a very important mission in mind.
    With pugnacious determination he set about his task. He trumpeted his vision of the future to his new disciples.
    A pot of gold awaits you all, if you follow me on the arduous journey to our promised land, he was heard to chant to those who listened.
    To their messiah, some even doffed their shiny new blue found hats,
    But alas, not all of his disciples liked the song he was singing, and in any case had no hats to doff. This made them very unhappy indeed. Hatless, and with suspicion in their heart, they eyed their fellow workers from afar, and didn’t join his journey to the promised land..
    The disappointed Wee Man couldn’t understand why his hatless disciples didn’t have the blind faith to follow his commandments, and with displeasure in his heart he ensured they felt his wrath.
    With no hats to put on and adjust, his untrusting charges joined in union and put their idle hands to use. So clutching placards proclaiming their plight, the plucky protesters took to the streets, waving and shouting.
    The whole world waited to see if there would be a ……………………….
    And they lived happily ever after………

    Possibly we’ll find out, after the sequel, set in a siesta, fiesta land even further away


    It appears those violent scenes witnessed against AF management last week have prompted the French government to call for further talks between airline management and unions.

    Segolene Royal, the Minister for Ecology (who is also in charge of transport), is quoted in
    by proposing that “the elimination of 2,900 jobs be suspended to resume the dialogue.”

    According to the Minister. AF management and unions haven’t been imaginative enough and that “all solutions have not yet be put on the table.”

    Article in French language:


    Political interference, a sure fire way to go bust.




    Ms Royal is right though, not all options have been explored, the best one being to de-merge KLM from the disaster that is AF, and close down AF. That will teach the garbage CGT, and all other unions in France, who have tried to justify their recent violence against the managers and saying the arrest of those who took physical action is a disgrace. The French government is just so weak!


    @dutchyankee – 14/10/2015 17:03 BST

    Segolene Royal has about as much backbone as your average mollusc. She, and those like her, are the principal reasons why France has stood still when the rest of the world has moved on. She’d sooner pick a fight with a polar bear than say “non!” to the CGT. It would be funny were it not so tragic. But you are entirely right about KL demerging from the millstone of French employment practices/protections and the total uncompetitiveness that flows from this.



    Fully agree, and when she that is the former mistress of the current ‘president’ realizes the realities of today’s world she will be sweeping the office and wiping the butt of Marine le Pen.

    The French have entitlement engrained in their psyche. Those who move
    on succeed, those who don’t are doomed to live in Clichy sous Bois. Kill off AF, save KL, and all is good.


    French bashing at his best ! Well done everybody. So enjoyable so enjoyabke and so subtile !
    However I’m afraid it is difficult to demerge against the will of the leading shareholder (i.e. the airline who was able to do what another airline failed to do a few years before)
    Also remember that Netherlands is not the same country as France and thus has it’s own employment practices.
    Last but not least, Ségolène Royal was not the mistress of Francois Hollande. She was his partner.



    Telling the truth should not be confused with French bashing. My better half is French and I have a home in France, but anyone with a modicum of sense knows the French system is a mess. I think we all know exactly who and what Ms Royal is and for her to chime in on this debate in such an idiotic fashion just proves how weak the French government is. The merger of AF and KL took many by surprise and I wouldn’t act like it was due to some superior French ethos. It is quite clear who the stronger better partner is in this absurd coupling, and cutting KL loose would save it from being completely drained by the cancer that is AF. As for Dutch employment practices, yes they are different. For a start the Dutch actually work and are not part of an entitled nanny state expecting to have everything given to them from the government from birth to death.

    Bashing the French doesn’t need to be subtle, it’s simply too easy.


    Having flown AF on many an occasion, I’d have to say that I’ve found the cabin crew to be mostly good, and since it’s “Y” I travel in, I’ve also found them very engaging when I’ve taken advantage of the bar area at the back of their 777’s….
    The experience at CDG on the other hand, seems to magnify the negative stereotypes many of us have of the French and France in general….

    And I’m sure that Christophe doesn’t need my support here, but if my memory serves me well, at the time of the merger, was it not KLM that was the more enthusiastic partner in the marriage.

    I’m also going to get a bit controversial here, but it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if the merger was encouraged by the EU federalist politicians in both countries and those same federalists will probably oppose and make difficult any divorce of the two companies, as it goes against their dogmatic principles.

    As for the French workers, not being realistic in this modern world of ours…. ….I totally agree.
    As for French bashing, well they seem to be doing a good job of it themselves.
    But here’s the rub, I have a begrudging respect for the way our Gallic cousin’s stand up for their rights
    I’m realistic enough to understand a job isn’t for life, yet many of us, as employees, are totally oblivious to how little rights we actually have. The erosion of those rights over the years I’ve been in the UK, continually reminds me, how little backbone we have.
    The list is endless of companies, many “Blue chip” who can clearly afford to pay a living wage, have a decent pension/healthcare in place but choose not to.
    Rather they have elected to sack long term experienced and valued employees. Re-hire on zero hour contracts, or worse outsource abroad.
    And it’s normally for what, to increase profit percentage year on year, so that already rich anonymous shareholders are kept happy!
    “Vive Le France”

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