Air France / KLM have declared another huge loss today. More state aid?

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  • AMcWhirter
    Participant

    Many of you will have read Mark’s piece today about Ryanair appealing to the EU Court about the granting of state aid last year to a couple of airlines in mainland Europe.

    Since then news has emerged that in 2020 Air France and KLM have declared another huge loss.

    In 2020 the loss amounted to Euros 7.1 billion for both airlines.

    Last year Air France / KLM were provided with over Euros 10 billion in state aid. Of this Euros 7 billion went to Air France with a further Euros 3.4 billion going to KLM.

    So what will happen this year ?

    Yet more state aid for Air France / KLM ?


    BackOfThePlane
    Participant

    Plus ca change……


    LuganoPirate
    Participant

    A bit late in replying, but neither country will allow their flagship airline to go bust. There will be wrangling and concessions demanded, but they’ll get the money and the taxpayer / passenger will end up paying. This would also be a great chance for AF to cut it’s bloated workforce, but again thanks to the unions and Macaron in an upcoming election this will not happen.

    Besides, both France and the Netherlands can tap the ECB for untold billions which is something the South African government could not do for SAA.

    1 user thanked author for this post.

    esselle
    Participant

    A bit late in replying, but neither country will allow their flagship airline to go bust. There will be wrangling and concessions demanded, but they’ll get the money and the taxpayer / passenger will end up paying. This would also be a great chance for AF to cut it’s bloated workforce, but again thanks to the unions and Macaron in an upcoming election this will not happen.

    Besides, both France and the Netherlands can tap the ECB for untold billions which is something the South African government could not do for SAA.

    As long as they don’t scrap my favourite F cabin, La Premiere in the process……

    2 users thanked author for this post.

    MarcusGB
    Participant

    As many on here know, The State already owns part of KLM and AF.
    The The Royal Schiphol Group own the airport.

    Comprising of
    “The Schiphol Group is 100% shareholder of Amsterdam Airport Schiphol, Rotterdam The Hague Airport, and Lelystad Airport. It also owns 51% of Eindhoven Airport and 19.6% of Brisbane Airport.
    Owner: State of the Netherlands (69.77%); Go…
    Headquarters: Schiphol Building, Schiphol-C
    Founded: 1920 (Schiphol)”
    I also believe a Chinese investor took a stake, and only approx 14% is owned by KLM, and the same with Air France

    The UK sold off its airports, and we do not have a National Airline, also sold off. Nothing to fund, rescue, support, or re-instate even domestic services.
    All is Privatised,
    the Dutch and French have a distinct advantage, and far more a vested “spread” of interest for income, as well as funding, which goes through City Councils, and many smaller shareholders.

    At least they have something to rescue, and every Airline in The World has reported losses.
    Cathay has almost gone, as has Thai, Air Asia, others using Chapter 11 processes.
    So clearly The Dutch and French will see KLM and AF through, in whatever form that maybe, even if it is much less in World Travel.
    They all have a vested interest, and many jobs, cities and people are involved.
    hence the National vs Privatised, they remain lucky to be Nationalised.
    We have no such comparison.

    And i still feel it is rather pathetic for no pathway for travel to start again from this Government, whether that be Border closing (a year late), whilst others have ensured domestic services and Governments have a process ahead for re starting.

    The Covid clearance will be a deal breaker, but we need ONE that is universally available, or somehow connected to the Passport.
    The stop / start of this Government gives no airline an opportunity to plan, build up, or even keep staff employed or on furlough
    No clear Policy, which is damaging to our Country, to us as a nation, as citizens and travellers.

    I feel too, that the EU could have chosen to keep flights between the UK and Europe, even in theory, rather than take another swipe and exclude the UK. We are part of Europe still, but treated as so.

    KLM and AF are still running many flights a day Worldwide mainly Asia, South America, more so in Europe, making the most of cargo usage for some income.
    so they are trying, and money is coming in this 1st 1/4.
    Let us hope that cities around The World can re-create a flight corridor, and agree on Covid proof.
    For this personally, i would prefer something in the form of a Covid plastic like Credit card, through an International group such as IATA.

    Either way, we need to get moving again, if the virus does not pounce again.

    Even domestic flights here would be helpful…?

    1 user thanked author for this post.

    SimonS1
    Participant

    I agree with your central argument. We need to start opening up before everything is broke.

    The difficulty is Covid-19 and its variants doesn’t conform to normal strategy and planning. UK tried to reopen last year (remember “Eat Out To Help Out”) and it all went badly wrong. Plus we see now that infection rates in Europe are going up again.

    Personally I am no fan of Boris but the time for judgement will come later. I can remember often people on here were presenting Australia as the poster boys of how to deal with Covid, now when it comes to vaccinations UK is at 24m, Australia at less than 100k and the Aussie government looking like they couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery (vaccines embargoed in Italy I believe).

    There is only so long that the Daily Mail approach of ‘close the borders and keep everyone out’ will work for before people start wanting to move on.


    cwoodward
    Participant

    I agree with your central argument. We need to start opening up before everything is broke.

    The difficulty is Covid-19 and its variants doesn’t conform to normal strategy and planning. UK tried to reopen last year (remember “Eat Out To Help Out”) and it all went badly wrong. Plus we see now that infection rates in Europe are going up again.

    Personally I am no fan of Boris but the time for judgement will come later. I can remember often people on here were presenting Australia as the poster boys of how to deal with Covid, now when it comes to vaccinations UK is at 24m, Australia at less than 100k and the Aussie government looking like they couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery (vaccines embargoed in Italy I believe).

    There is only so long that the Daily Mail approach of ‘close the borders and keep everyone out’ will work for before people start wanting to move on.

    It is drawing something of a long bow to say that Cathay is ‘almost gone’.
    Nothing could in fact be further from the truth. The airline is very solidly backed by its major shareholders and the Hong Kong government and there is very little likelihood of the airline failing or its subsidiaries Air Hong Kong and Hong Kong Express doing other than prosper mid term.

    Unlike many European carriers Cathay has sacked none of its several thousand pilots and all are being paid unlike those of BA so ruthlessly dealt with early in the piece.
    While due to having no domestic network both it and Singapore airlines have been very hard hit neither is likely to fold. Air Asia in its various forms is alive and in some markets flourishing and the chance of Thai falling over I would say is also very remote indeed.

    Interestingly Cathay has taken in 10 new aircraft in the past 9 months which is not the action of a very experienced airline that is in any sort of terminal decline.

    Announced today by the Cathay board was that they are also looking to expand their freighter business which is already the worlds second or third largest (depending on how one calculates it). Hardly ‘almost gone’.


    cwoodward
    Participant

    Above I quoted the wrong email. (very sorry Simon) it should of course been that from MarcusGB.


    AMcWhirter
    Participant

    As you may have seen from the piece we posted yesterday …

    Air France is to receive a further Euros 4 billion in support.

    KLM also expected to receive support. The Dutch state is talking to the European Commission about this.

    Air France-KLM to receive another €4 billion in support

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