Air France / KLM disregard for EU261.

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  • TimFitzgeraldTC
    Participant

    Good Afternoon

    I know a lot of airlines are having a tough time at the moment but most airlines are now refunding customers (in Europe at least). A few have needed a push like Emirates and Etihad to do the “right” thing.

    However it seems even though AF/KL have received bailouts in region of €10bn from their respective governments – they are refusing to refund cancelled flights instead giving a voucher that lasts 12 months before they’ll then give a cash refund. This is in direct contravention of EU261 legislation and I’m stunned governments bailing out the airlines are not insisting they adhere to the law (as it currently stands). I say this so to be wary of them for any bookings at the moment.

    I know some airlines are being slow refunding (given situation that is understandable) but the behaviour of these 2 carriers astounds me.

    Other carriers like BA have actually been very prompt at processing and authorising refunds in quick time – so hats of to them!

    1 user thanked author for this post.

    Celticplumber
    Participant

    I had the same problem with KLM refusing to offer refunds on cancelled flights. Happily I used my Amex card to make the bookings, and Amex refunded my card within a couple of days of me raising a chargeback query. Amex 10/10. KLM 0/10.

    1 user thanked author for this post.

    GBAIR72
    Participant

    BA have been amazing providing me with refunds yet EasyJet and KL has been a struggle

    2 users thanked author for this post.

    PointyMark
    Participant

    I have posted on BT before about my unhappiness at having to accept a voucher from AF/KL, but I did so nonetheless because I judged AF/KL’s survival to be almost guaranteed. It really rankles to see the French, yet again, ignoring EU rules! And for xenophobic balance I must criticise Easyjet in UK for not cancelling a flight which I and it knows will not take place, just to force me to take a voucher instead of a refund.


    ASK1945
    Participant

    BA have been amazing providing me with refunds yet EasyJet and KL has been a struggle

    As I was reading the above, an email pooped into my Inbox from BA, which included the following:

    “You’re currently due to travel to Tel Aviv Yafo on 12 July 2020, however due to the fast changing situation, we wanted to let you know that if you’d like to change the date or destination of your trip and you booked directly with British Airways – you can apply for a voucher online here. This can be redeemed against future travel, for flights taken up until 30 April 2022.”

    You may be surprised that I am very reassured by this. It is over two months away so I was relaxed anyway. However, I was concerned that any voucher offer would be limited to flying before December 31st, which is one year since I booked the flight. I already cancelled one flight to TLV in March (cancelled just before Covid-19) and I was limited to the middle of November for its replacement, being one year since I had booked it.

    I will certainly be planning to go to TLV again, later in 2021 (I am not sure of the exact date yet), so now I have the option of waiting until nearer the July take-off time, finding that it’s cancelled and then demanding my cash back (by phone, if I can get through) to pay for the replacement flight later, or booking it nearer the time, using the voucher.


    FaroFlyer
    Participant

    ASK1945, like you, I am probably going to accept an IAG voucher for future travel for a domestic Vueling flight booked for 18 June. This is what they offered:-
    “*Flight Credit Terms and Conditions
    Flight Credit valid for 18 months from the date of issue.
    The Flight Credit can be used once or several times until it runs out. The Flight Credit is not personal or granted to a particular person and can therefore be used to make bookings for the recipient or another person. You can check the available Flight Credit balance when you make a new booking and reach the payment page. If there is not enough Flight Credit to cover the total price of a booking, the remaining amount must be paid by card. Valid for all fares and any additional services booked.”

    To me, that is a very fair offer, and I shall wait until a few days before scheduled departure to accept, and to give myself maximum time to use it. I particularly like that I can use it for anybody, not just myself. It won’t be long before there is a market for these

    4 users thanked author for this post.

    biguli76
    Participant

    What about Lufthansa?
    They (LH AKA German Gov) asked to suspend refunds rules.
    Nobodody made insurrance for calamity cash flow???
    IBERIA is the best 3 cancellations and 3 refunds. In one week.
    Get My Money Back!


    FaroFlyer
    Participant

    What about Lufthansa?
    They (LH AKA German Gov) asked to suspend refunds rules.
    Nobodody made insurrance for calamity cash flow???
    IBERIA is the best 3 cancellations and 3 refunds. In one week.
    Get My Money Back!

    In my experience LH are the worst. Apart from the upcoming claim on Vueling I have had 1 TAP, 2 Ryanair, and 1 LH. After trying to progress with the airlines I resorted to Amex claw-back. The result with TAP was that, as TAP incorrectly told me that EU261 does not apply to Covid so voucher only, Amex have accepted the claim and it will take 6-8 weeks, but an immediate temporary credit..
    Next was 2 Ryanair bookings. Ryanair system had immediately said OK to refund then after a couple of weeks said voucher only. Amex accepted this claim also and it will take 6-8 weeks, and again an immediate temporary credit.
    LH had told me 7 days for a refund and after 3 weeks I phoned to follow up. The guy said that the claim is in the system and, when I said I have waited 3 weeks already his answer was it will probably take 10 times that. Amex immediately rejected the claim as LH had not refused to make a refund. It felt as though Amex and LH had a special relationship as Amex would not even discuss what is acceptable for LH.

    2 users thanked author for this post.

    ontherunhome
    Participant

    Lufthansa owe me for 3 cancelled tickets about €370. I had filed a claim with MBNA Visa, my card provider. They have initialy rejected the claim, saying I was offered an alternative flight, and th T&C’s allow Lufthansa to do this.

    I have responded, that LH cannot write T&C’s that circumvent the law, and that the card issuer is jointly liable under section 75 of the 1974 consumer credit act. I am awaiting a reply and a stalemate letter if they do not respond, in order to take them to the ombudsman, or small claims court. We shall see.

    The only future certainty is I will never use Lufthansa group ever again, if they continue to exist.

    3 users thanked author for this post.

    BugAdvisor
    Participant

    I raised a chargeback for a cancelled KLM flight – waiting for refund. At least KLM made it easy by writing that they won’t be offering refunds.

    EasyJet cancelled my mid-march flight and have yet to refund it. But as they say they will eventually refund, it’s harder to claim a chargeback – is a time limit that I can refer to and use that as justification?


    Ah,Mr.Bond
    Participant

    What about hotels? I’m supposed to be in Dubrovnik this bank holiday weekend, BA have refunded my ticket, Dubrovnik Palace Hotel claim they are still open and my reservation is still live in their system. What a complete and utter joke, so they just claim not to have cancelled it so don’t need to refund? Booking was non refundable.


    SimonS1
    Participant

    But as they say they will eventually refund, it’s harder to claim a chargeback – is a time limit that I can refer to and use that as justification?

    EC261 Article 8 applies – it refers to 7 days. This has not been waived.

    Clearly airlines are struggling on this, and some latitude is not unreasonable but 3 or 6 months is excessive and I would ask your card provider to charge back.

    1 user thanked author for this post.

    FaroFlyer
    Participant

    What about Lufthansa?
    They (LH AKA German Gov) asked to suspend refunds rules.
    Nobodody made insurrance for calamity cash flow???
    IBERIA is the best 3 cancellations and 3 refunds. In one week.
    Get My Money Back!

    In my experience LH are the worst. Apart from the upcoming claim on Vueling I have had 1 TAP, 2 Ryanair, and 1 LH. After trying to progress with the airlines I resorted to Amex claw-back. The result with TAP was that, as TAP incorrectly told me that EU261 does not apply to Covid so voucher only, Amex have accepted the claim and it will take 6-8 weeks, but an immediate temporary credit..
    Next was 2 Ryanair bookings. Ryanair system had immediately said OK to refund then after a couple of weeks said voucher only. Amex accepted this claim also and it will take 6-8 weeks, and again an immediate temporary credit.
    LH had told me 7 days for a refund and after 3 weeks I phoned to follow up. The guy said that the claim is in the system and, when I said I have waited 3 weeks already his answer was it will probably take 10 times that. Amex immediately rejected the claim as LH had not refused to make a refund. It felt as though Amex and LH had a special relationship as Amex would not even discuss what is acceptable for LH.

    Just a quick update on Lufthansa and their latest trick.

    Today I telephoned again to progress the status of my refund claim made online on 13 March, followed up by me on 24 March and again on 14 April. The gentleman told me that he could not find the booking then checked again and told me it had been “deactivated”. He confirmed that the original refund request had been processed but told me that now he had to give me a new booking reference and process a new refund request. He agreed that this meant that the 9 weeks wait had been lost, and that the new booking and refund request would be at the back of the queue. He said that he agreed this is unreasonable, but that there is nothing he can do. He confirmed that by Law LH must give a cash refund, and he also told me that many customers are instructing lawyers, but that may not be quicker.

    He said that he could not e-mail me to confirm our conversation, or that the refund is again being processed, but he promised to e-mail the new booking reference. I am still waiting.

    A month ago Amex refused to initiate a dispute as “Lufthansa have not refused a refund”. I shall try again when I receive the new booking reference e-mail, and see if Amex are still in collusion with LH.


    ontherunhome
    Participant

    My credit card company said as they were willing to offer new flights, they could not refund. However I have or am using Section 75 to make card company jointly liable. LH are a disgrace, and I for one will bar my company ever using them again, if they survive.


    FaroFlyer
    Participant

    My credit card company said as they were willing to offer new flights, they could not refund. However I have or am using Section 75 to make card company jointly liable. LH are a disgrace, and I for one will bar my company ever using them again, if they survive.

    It seems strange that LH have such a close relationship with credit / charge card companies. Amex have accepted 4 disputes over refunds with Ryanair without question, and one in the same situation with TAP.

    With LH Amex said no, back in April, and only agreed to register a dispute now (Amex told me that S75 does not apply as Amex is a charge card not a credit card) because LH “deactivated” the original booking and refund claim. What interested me is that LH made 4 charges for 2 PAX including seats, but TAP made only 1 debit. Amex have immediately credited the seats as they are at a level that will be written off. I wonder if LH make 4 separate charges so that card companies will not bother pursuing disputes for all items?

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