[Cedric_Statherby]

Chutzpahflyer

I think you have put your finger on something. Until about 4 years ago the number of times I was pleasantly surprised by an unexpected BA policy or action greatly outweighed the number of times I was unpleasantly surprised. In recent years I can hardly remember a pleasant surprise but there have been a lot of occasions – indeed far too many occasions – where I have been disappointed. A petty policy here, an unthinking restriction there, a meaningless withdrawal of something one had come to expect.

There is a pattern here. It is no longer “To fly, to serve”, but “What can we get away with?”.

I have gold status on BA. But increasingly I use it to fly on the oneWorld partner of the region I am in – so Finnair or Cathay to Asia, LATAM to South America, even American across the Atlantic (god help me).

[FDOS_UK]

That is morally and commercially repugnant. OK, it’s my choice to fly BA instead of Easy or Aegean, but see note about EC Bronze! Why can’t I make a booking for one checked bag between a couple?

Why is it morally and commercially repugnant? The airline didn’t make any secret of their policies and you could have chosen to fly with another airline, from Heathrow or another airport, but you didn’t.

It seems that you are booking enough flights to reclaim silver, so BA offers enough value to you to keeping you booking.

FWIW, I am a gold card holder and have far lower expectations of the airline, than you do – what does annoy me is when they fail to deliver the promised product because ‘XXX forgot to load it’ or the crew are either untrained or uncaring – but still the low prices on offer (on long haul) mean I can live with that and self cater etc. to make myself independent of the general malaise that one sometimes finds.

[FDOS_UK]

Cedric

There is a pattern here. It is no longer “To fly, to serve”, but “What can we get away with?”.

Agreed.

As the old saying goes, ‘they know the cost of everything and the value of nothing’, combined with a policy of putting inexperienced crew, incapable of delivering consistent premium service into premium cabins.

[Daytripper]

Forgive me if someone has already made this point, but it’s a BA Gold benefit that passengers travelling with a GC holder on the same flight but on a different booking reference can have seating reservations free of charge. However, this can only be procured by the GC member calling the EC service centre, and not online.

I’m not sure whether this benefit applies to BA Silver, but it certainly does for Gold, as I made use of it only last week.

[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=863258]Forgive me if someone has already made this point, but it’s a BA Gold benefit that passengers travelling with a GC holder on the same flight but on a different booking reference can have seating reservations free of charge. However, this can only be procured by the GC member calling the EC service centre, and not online.

I’m not sure whether this benefit applies to BA Silver, but it certainly does for Gold, as I made use of it only last week.[/quote]

It’s for gold only and is a manual request for seating to be allocated, thus the need for a call.

A useful little perk.

[Chutzpahflyer]

[quote quote=863253]Why is it morally and commercially repugnant?[/quote]

FDOS, commercially because this is short-termism taken to the extreme. Where is the attempt to build customer loyalty or to recognise and give good service to a long-time customer?
Of course, BA/IAG is not alone in taking a short-term approach to its business strategy (sorry, tactic – strategy is intrinsically long-term!), but it does seem to be aiming to be the leader of the pack in destroying a reputable brand.

Morally – this relates to above. Asking a husband and wife (or any other couple or family group that have booked flights together) to pay to sit together is reprehensible. And blackmailing a customer into making two separate bookings instead of being able to book a shared checked bag is just that – blackmail! That is morally repugnant.

[FDOS_UK]

FDOS, commercially because this is short-termism taken to the extreme. Where is the attempt to build customer loyalty or to recognise and give good service to a long-time customer?

But the market has changed and now it is becoming the norm to unbundle products and charge separately for the components – as I’ve written earlier in the thread, we have never had it so good in terms of value.

The air travel industry has become ever more commoditised, since I first flew in 1976 and took my first business flight in 1978 – as Housman wrote

Into my heart an air that kills
From yon far country blows:
What are those blue remembered hills,
What spires, what farms are those?

That is the land of lost content,
I see it shining plain
The happy highways where I went
And cannot come again.

(sorry, tactic – strategy is intrinsically long-term!),

Nope, strategy is no more than medium term, in a business context.

Morally – this relates to above. Asking a husband and wife (or any other couple or family group that have booked flights together) to pay to sit together is reprehensible. And blackmailing a customer into making two separate bookings instead of being able to book a shared checked bag is just that – blackmail! That is morally repugnant.

Well you can express your opinion freely in this country, but I think it is barking mad. That Athens trip would have cost a lot more money in the old days, even allowing for the unbundling of the baggage etc. Blackmail involves coercion, you were not blackmailed, but you freely chose to book with BA, when you could have chosen an alternative.

Also, remember that APD did not exist then, either.

We’ve never had it so good.

PS: if loyalty is important to you, may I suggest that you buy a dog? An airline will never give you the same warm, fuzzy, feeling 😉

[Cedric_Statherby]

FDOS, Chutzpahflyer

I am enjoying your debate and I hope you do not mind me joining it. I agree with both of you on some of your stance and neither on all of it!

I am not sure I understand what being “commercially repugnant” means. A company can do something which is stupid, or damaging to its brand, or short term positive but long term negative, but as long as the customer has the free option of whether to engage or not with the company, it is free to operate as it sees fit (within the law). The terms of business are not illegal and not hidden.

I happen to think BA are being stupid, or at least short-sighted, because they are clearly damaging customer loyalty, and in the future they may come to regret that – like trust, customer loyalty is hard to win, easy to lose and almost impossible to recover once lost, and like trust, you do not realise its value until you need it and find it is not there any more. I can only presume that BA now place very low value on customer loyalty – but if so, why bother to run the Executive Club and all the lounges, which are not cheap?

It is a slightly different matter if acompany has a monopoly, as then the premise that we can take our business elsewhere if we want to fails, but usually regulators are on top of that one and try to impose some sort of fair service level obligation.

I find it easier to see how a company can be “morally repugnant”, and here I agree that BA, indeed the whole airline industry, are sailing very close to the wind. It is not enough to say “but look how cheap air travel is these days compared to 40 years ago” – Facebook is (a) a wonderful invention and (b) free at the point of use but it does not stop them coming in for justified criticism for their business model and business practices.

The main criticism I have of the airline industry and its salami-slicing charging practice is that is makes clarity of the final cost, and so comparison between providers, almost impossible. Since every airline has multiple and subtly different charging models, it is impossible to know what the final all-in cost of a ticket is until you are deep into the booking process or even committed to buying the ticket (many of the extras, like check-in charges, extra baggage charges, food on board charges are piled on after you have confirmed and paid for the ticket). This is classic “bait-and-switch”: one is attracted by a promise at a headline price but then ends up paying for something different at a much higher price.

As I say, this makes price comparisons impossible, or at the least far too difficult, and in most markets this or similar practices are outlawed for the very sensible reason that it is directly contrary to the consumer’s interest. In a word, it is morally repugnant. But note that it is the market practice that is repugnant; BA are no better and no worse than most of their competitors.

As I have commented before in other posts, I find it very odd how the airline industry, almost uniquely among genuinely competitive markets with many providers (ie where no-one has a monopoly position like Facebook does, to go back to my previous example), treats its customers so cynically. It does seem that there are two equilibrium positions for a market: either the great majority of participants play fair (and the odd rogue company is soon exposed) or the great majority play foul (and any company that tries to play fair struggles). It is our misfortune that the airline industry has collectively decided to follow the “plays foul” course. I suspect many airlines would like to behave more equitably – but they do not know how to make money and survive were they to try.

[SwissExPat]

As I started this topic, thanks for the contributions and views.

My expectation (perhaps a false one) is that once Check-in opens (usually 24 hours), then ALL the seats unallocated in a particular cabin would be available to all PAX to select these who did not specifically pay for a seat prior to the opening of check-in.

In my case, it was obvious that there were unallocated seats in Y+ at 23m and 59 minutes before the departing flight time but the system had purpopsely assigned the 2 people on the ither booking to other rows of the plane. The 2 seats together in onw row was still available for me to select but not to them.

This episode specifically showed that the ALGORITHM had purposely separated them and would not let them sit together.

As mentioned in one post, I can see that the airline might want to hold back a ‘decent’ seat for a last minute high fare booking but again in my instance, this was not the case. Actually one of the seats allocated to Mrs ExPat was the front row window bassinet seat which was a great seat which one have been a premium seat to hold back. I wasn’t.

I remember there being a huge level of disaffection when Ryanair when their policy was unearthed. But I never expected BA would engage in this. More fool me!

[SwissExPat]

Further,

I would have no issue with an Airline if they said:

“You may purchase specific seats in advance. If you do not, we will allocate you to separate rows in your chosen cabin. If you want to sit together, you MUST make a payment for the seats. If you don’t pay for seats together, we WILL separate you. You have been warned !!”

[canucklad]

A couple of points I’d like to comment on ……

FDOS you mentioned that in terms of Value for money, we’ve never had it so good. I’d say Yes & No, depending on what your definition/perception of value is ? It’s the old quality versus quantity debate!!

And it sort of links to Cedric’s point about why people hunt (obsessed with finding) the lowest cost point for what they perceive to be probably the biggest expenditure of their trip, yet in most cases it’s not.
And yea, I too wonder why they don’t use the same logic when choosing accommodation, which probably is the most expensive chunk of their outlay.

A few of my mates fall into this category of what I’d call Ryanization logic.
I live under the “wheels down” part of the flightpath into EDI, yet if FR have a flight to Spain from PIK £50 cheaper than one departing from EDI they’ll traipse down to Ayrshire, pay long term parking , and because they’ve given themselves extra time, “just in case” they end paying over the odds at the Elvis bar. Bonkers, but they’ll still quote the base fare to Alicante, and forget the rest !!

I’ll add it’s not just airlines that have got themselves into a pickle with this cheapest price point =best value for money thought process. I read that Debenhams have got themselves into financial trouble. A retail analyst pointed out there seemed to be a perpetual sale going on, in their stores.
So I’m going to guess that they deemed Primark as their main competitor , went down the lower cost route using Sales to emphasise savings, it ultimately devalues the brand, and more importantly customers lose trust in what they’re buying.

[Chutzpahflyer]

Helpful comments, Cedric, thank you.

OK, so it was late night when I posted and “commercially repugnant” may have been a bit extreme. But that doesn’t alter the fact that the practices now introduced in to the industry (particularly now re: seat allocation) are repugnant, and your analysis is very clear.

My point, I s’pose, is that an airline with the history, reputation and former quality of BA doesn’t have to follow the herd. Of course, the herd instinct is very strong, but it’s always possible to take another route (no pun intended!) to differentiate one’s company from the rest. As you reference Facebook, allow me to reference John Lewis as one of many dept stores, but one which has differentiated itself through its staffing model and its customer service; with the result that it now seems to be weathering the current retail storm much better than some of its rivals.

In other words, BA could well have chosen to differentiate itself by staying as a full service airline which is upfront in its fare displays. Singapore manages…

FDOS_UK: Yes, I could have chosen another airline, but BA had the most suitable timings and – dammit – that EC Silver beckoned! And I was coerced in to paying to select seats so that we could sit together. I wasn’t willing to take the risk of sitting apart (the start of a holiday, after all, and we get little enough time together) and as SwissExPat points out “This episode specifically showed that the ALGORITHM had purposely separated them and would not let them sit together.” What’s that if not coercion in to having to pay to select seats?

[FDOS_UK]

Chutzpahflyer

We have a different definition of coercion. Mine does not include choice of decision.

Swiss

The FLY software that BA uses does not (as far as I am aware and understand its functionality) deliberately separate people, but rather puts blocks on a series of seats around the cabin, e.g.

– bassinet seats are held until ~-24 hours, then may or may not be free for allocation at check in (either online or airport)
– most desired seats are available to premier and gold card holders, from time of booking
– some desired seats are available to silver card holders
– GCH, possibly SCH will have seats next to them blocked, if the flight has space free, as the flight fills, those blocks will be removed

In other words, the seating plan is dynamic and depending on who you are, you will see a very different map when choosing.

What you describe in your OP sounds exactly like a normal BA flight, where some seats will appear disappear from time to time – as a SCH, you will have a better choice than your wife, but Cedric or I will have a better choice than you.

When you saw the two seats in a row that were available, it was quite likely that a SCH was sitting in a seat, with a block next to them, but your SCH opened those seats up to you – if it was a middle bank of four, then a SCH in each aisle seat could have a block next to them, taking out the middles.

If you wish to look at a system which is designed to separate people, then Ryanair is a good place to start. As far as I can make out, they have an algorithm that does apply a weighted randomisation that is highly likely to result in parties who do not travel together receiving seats all around the aircraft.

[FDOS_UK]

Cedric

I can only presume that BA now place very low value on customer loyalty – but if so, why bother to run the Executive Club and all the lounges, which are not cheap?

As someone who knows a little about formulating business strategy, when I look at BA I see a company that tries to play differentiation and cost focus gambits at the same time, in a broad market – this does not usually end well, although there are a number of obstacles to competitors that mitigate against failure in this instance. Slot allocation at Heathrow, brand (even though not as strong as it was in the past), fat to trim (though this must be getting harder to find, there is a limit to what you can cheapen/outsource), JVs, size etc..

The repeated utterings of the phrase ‘we are a premium airline’ by the CEO does remind me of Idi Amin’s claim to the throne of Scotland, simply a chutzpah.

What you have, these days, is an airline that is truly mediocre, but (with some care) offers excellent value for money – I pay typically a shade under £500 for a return flight to the middle east (allowing for cashing in some avios as part of the fare, e.g. I’ll cash in approx the avios to be earned by the trip). Martyn Sinclair has a different plan, which he has explained on here several times, to fly around Europe for next to nothing.

Enjoy it while it lasts, as the crows will come home to roost at some stage – I do expect the BAEC to change in the future, to a revenue based model.

[FDOS_UK]

Canucklad

FDOS you mentioned that in terms of Value for money, we’ve never had it so good. I’d say Yes & No, depending on what your definition/perception of value is ? It’s the old quality versus quantity debate!!

Of course.

On the other hand, if one can pick up a BA F ticket at the right price, it offers a very comfortable ride, so it is not just fare price (though that is the driver for many people).

I find a decent premium economy seat/space not so far away from the business class of 25 years ago, yet it is a fraction of the price. Of course, you don’t get all the free trimmings such as vintage bubbles or top wines, but who cares? It’s a comfortable ride and is as cheap as chips.

I have a trip to Boston in June, £820 return, 43″ seat pitch in a 2×2 row, decent IFE, F&B included and a free checked suitcase. Cheap as chips and comfortable. Not BA, either. We’ve never had it so good.

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