[FDOS_UK]

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/worst-airline-which-ryanair-british-airways-survey-vueling-jet2-norwegian-united-singapore-airlines-a8113616.html

More evidence that the brand has suffered serious damage.

[capetonianm]

As if such evidence were needed!
I have for a long time considered Vueling to be by far the worst of any European carrier, the fourth rate subsidiary of a third rate airline, and it was started by the man who stuffed up British Airways.

They’re all in the same rotting pot of IAG.

[MartynSinclair]

“Europe’s safest and most popular airline, Ryanair, has come joint last in a Which? survey of passenger satisfaction”.

Just about sums up the effectiveness of surveys….

[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=842187]“Europe’s safest and most popular airline, Ryanair, has come joint last in a Which? survey of passenger satisfaction”.
Just about sums up the effectiveness of surveys….
[/quote]

Not really, Martyn, as brand perception and buying decisions are often irrational in nature.

British Airways was a very strong brand and even I am surprised how long it took for the chickens to come home to roost – probably 12-18 months longer than I thought and we would be wise to remember that the cost cutting started long before Cruz (though he is currently the panto villain).

Don’t forget that Ryanair had just p*ssed off the world by cancelling a bucket load of flights, when this survey was live – I’m sure that would also reflect on their perception.

Edited to add: It is highly likely that the vast majority of the survey respondents are not hardened travellers and will possibly perceive things differently to those of us on this forum – for example, use of lounges eases the pain of the airport experience (I thoroughly enjoy the hot breakfast at T5 GF), extra baggage allowances save us from our wallets being gouges and we can pick seats for free – normal punters don’t get those perks and it alters the value proposition somewhat.

Hope you’re having a good trip – it was good to bump into you at LHR the week before last.

[MartynSinclair]

Yes good to bump into you as well. Hope your trip is also going well..

The brand destruction discussion is interesting because it does not seem to be effecting BA loads. The night I flew to HKG, BA had 2 flights.. my flight was 92% full and the second was 96% full. I accept that is just one route.

I just thought the articles headline was somewhat contradictory, (and I am no lover of Ryan). How can Europe’s most popular airline come last in a passenger satisfaction survey… the article stated the Which report relating to passenger satisfaction, perhaps the “most popular airline” comment should have been supported…

[CathayLoyalist2]

It was also interesting to see BA´s response to the survey via a spokesman which started “BA is a premium airline……….”. I guess the bods at the top must say that every night before they go to bed and wake up believing it. In life it´s not what you do but how you do it. So clearly so long as the bottom line looks healthy ( the what) the manner on which they get there is not important ) the how. As with both BA and Ryanair as long as people keep buying tickets they have no motivation to up their “how” game

[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=842200]Yes good to bump into you as well. Hope your trip is also going well..
The brand destruction discussion is interesting because it does not seem to be effecting BA loads. The night I flew to HKG, BA had 2 flights.. my flight was 92% full and the second was 96% full. I accept that is just one route.
I just thought the articles headline was somewhat contradictory, (and I am no lover of Ryan). How can Europe’s most popular airline come last in a passenger satisfaction survey… the article stated the Which report relating to passenger satisfaction, perhaps the “most popular airline” comment should have been supported…
[/quote]

My flight out to Dubai looked pretty full, too. However, as an airline manager once told me, ‘don’t confuse load with yield’ – the more an airline has to use pricing elasticity to attract sales, in lieu of service/reputation etc., the less likely they are to maximise profitability, leading to pressure to make further cuts to maintain profitable results.

At some stage, there are no costs left to cut and customers are buying on price – bit like ‘coffin corner’ in a jet, not a good place to be – as I’ve got things sorted okay pro tem (at least ’til EK offers premium economy), I’d rather BA is a stable business 🙂 – pure self interest!

As to how the most frequently used airline can finish last in the survey? Pure irrational perception.

I’ve just seen a 6’4″ Arab guy playing the role of an Elf in a Santa’s playground, so anything is possible.

My trip is going well, thanks hope you are having a good trip, too – will be returning to the UK on Sat 23rd and dreading the cold wx, after 12 days in DXB.

[capetonianm]

On the basis that Ryanair carries more passengers than any other European carrier, and have never as far as I know had a fatac, claiming to be the most popular is not unreasonable. There are other carriers with an unblemished safety record but if you extrapolate that against Ryanair’s number of flights operated or pax carried, then they might also justify claim to be the safest.

A few months a go I had to travel BCN-DUB and the choice, due to a time constraint, was BA (operated by Vueling) or FR. Given my refusal to travel with FR, I chose BA, but given how poor every aspect it was, I think that in the same situation again, I might choose FR and save a few bob! Or go via AMS.

‘don’t confuse load with yield’. You can sell anything if you sell it cheap enough, making money on the sale is another story.

[TominScotland]

Yield versus load debate is interesting. On the long-haul routes I have been looking at for 2018 (BKK, SIN, KUL, NBO, HKG, JNB, MCT), BA is rarely the cheapest although rarely the most expensive either. The ME3 usually come out cheapest while CX and MH can both be cheaper to the Far East. Remember, we don’t get direct flights from GLA so generally is like-for-like. KLM used to be up there as cheap but rarely figure now. So it is debateable whether BA get load just on the basis of their price proposition…..

As FDOS rightly said, those completing the surveys are unlikely to be FFs. Maybe the high level of publicity given to BA and Ryanair issues in the UK media (rather than real journey experience) may have played a part here?

[FDOS_UK]

[quote quote=842223]Yield versus load debate is interesting. On the long-haul routes I have been looking at for 2018 (BKK, SIN, KUL, NBO, HKG, JNB, MCT), BA is rarely the cheapest although rarely the most expensive either. The ME3 usually come out cheapest while CX and MH can both be cheaper to the Far East. Remember, we don’t get direct flights from GLA so generally is like-for-like. KLM used to be up there as cheap but rarely figure now. So it is debateable whether BA get load just on the basis of their price proposition…..
As FDOS rightly said, those completing the surveys are unlikely to be FFs. Maybe the high level of publicity given to BA and Ryanair issues in the UK media (rather than real journey experience) may have played a part here?
[/quote]

The other point to bear in mind when considering the load/yield linkage is corporate deals, which we rarely see – these have a serious impact on both loads and yields.

[Jackophil]

BA is, by definition, a Premier Airline, as it offers Premium products; First, Club World, Club Europe, and World Traveller Plus (Premier Economy), as well as Lounges and ‘hub and spoke’ connectivity. ‘The Low Cost Carriers’ do not. Whether BA’s Premium offerings are competitive with other Premier airlines is a moot point. My guess is that they lag behind some Far Eastern and Middle Eastern carriers but are as good or better than most of the rest. Their Premium traffic is growing, and load factors are increasing, so they can’t be doing everything wrong. They are about to report record profits for 2017. Their decision to start charging for food and drink in Shorthaul economy is debatable, and it was poorly introduced, and has led to enormous adverse publicity. I endured a 4 hour flight back from Lanzerote with no food left by the time they got to row 21, which was poor. I think they would have been wiser to have restricted buy on board to flights of 90 minutes or less.

[FDOS_UK]

I can’t agree with this analysis.

The first point is factually incorrect.

BA is, by definition, a Premier Airline, as it offers Premium products; First, Club World, Club Europe, and World Traveller Plus (Premier Economy), as well as Lounges and ‘hub and spoke’ connectivity. ‘The Low Cost Carriers’ do not.

LCC’s do offer premium products, e.g. Norwegian offers a premium cabin on its 787’s with greater pitch than BA’s WTP – I’m flying it next year from Gatwick to Boston and it comes with complimentary lounge access at both ends.

DY also offers ‘hub and spoke’ connectivity.

Whether BA’s Premium offerings are competitive with other Premier airlines is a moot point. My guess is that they lag behind some Far Eastern and Middle Eastern carriers but are as good or better than most of the rest.

This is your opinion, but IMHO it is some way from my reality LH, AF, SK, LX, KL are all excellent airlines in Europe – even Alitalia has a better long haul business cabin than Club World. LH and AF annihilate BA for the F experience and LX is better. LHR F ground treatment of F pax is a sick joke compared to LH or AF.

AA is better across most of its long haul fleet for business and F is no worse.

Their Premium traffic is growing, and load factors are increasing, so they can’t be doing everything wrong.

But what’s happening to RASK? What about NPS and other leading indicators? What is happening to yield?

They are about to report record profits for 2017.

Oh goody – that’s big bonuses for management , but it’s a lagging performance indicator – the future signs are not looking good.

Their decision to start charging for food and drink in Shorthaul economy is debatable, and it was poorly introduced, and has led to enormous adverse publicity. I endured a 4 hour flight back from Lanzerote with no food left by the time they got to row 21, which was poor. I think they would have been wiser to have restricted buy on board to flights of 90 minutes or less.

Premium airlines (like AA) may charge for F&B on short haul/domestics, but have the good sense to offer something free to their Emerald cardholders – BA gives nothing, bar the offer of some water from the aircraft tanks (which I wouldn’t drink) after the BoB service is completed (which it sometimes isn’t on short sectors). SK provides free tea or coffee.

BA*

– charges for seat allocation in Y, W, C, J – not very premium
– charges for luggage on some fares
– charges for F&B on short haul
– won’t check baggage through, unless on a single PNR – this is very similar to a LCC, point to point

I write the above as a BAEC gold card holder with 51 BA sectors to date this year, 7,600 miles on shorthaul and 65,000 on long haul – I also fly on other airlines. I fly mainly in economy on short haul and in WTP long haul, though I’ve recently flown to Dubai in CW and will be returning in a few days in the same – self catering, which says something.

I buy BA because I can get better value for money than in previous years (often paying less) and the route network suits, but I don’t kid myself and imagine I’m buying a premium product (with the honourable exception of WTP on a 787, which is world class, especially the 787 with only 25 seats in a small cabin.

Neither am I a loyal buyer, if EK launch a premium economy product from Manchester, I’ll move across in half a heartbeat – that’s what happens when you commoditise your product – customers change their brand associations and make decisions based on different criteria.

Ryanair is the biggest commodity player in the market, but there low cost base has always allowed them to do this effectively and as a huge airline (by fleet size) – who buys Ryanair because of the product? It’s a price driven consumer decision

*Not inc. BA Cityflyer

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