Rail – a better way for short trips
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at 18:33 by transtraxman.
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BigDog.ParticipantThe FT is reporting that train usage along domestic air routes has jumped 60% in the past 6 years.
Rail’s market share between Scotland and southern England has jumped from 29% to 46%. In contrast, Airlines have seen their passenger numbers fall by 26% to around 9m. However, the Scotland to southern England routes remain the main domestic air market as rail cannot compete with current journey times.
West coast mainline upgrades enabled rail journey times to be cut by up to 30%. One can only see short-hop market declining – only 15% of London – Manchester traffic is by aircraft.
So good to see BA considering a JV with Eurostar and one hopes these numbers will be factored into the strategic airport plan for London.
Personally, I believe short hops should be mainly for connecting to long haul flights and with High Speed connections to and between major hubs LHR-AMS-CDG- (LGW?) there will be little need for an estuary solution. High Speed rail being the future for journeys under 400 miles.
29 Apr 2013
at 07:46
AllOverTheGaffParticipantIn London now and came down on the train, heading back tomorrow….albeit this is a leisure trip and not a business one.
The times for me are below:
09:30 leave my gaff
11:00 arrive at airport
12:10 Flight
13:40 Arrive LHR
14:40 Arrive central London (by the time you faff about waiting on bags etc)The above assumes NO delays and no traffic or any of the other myriad of things that can go awry with flights.
The train: Left Dundee at 09:06 arrived Kings Cross 14:50 – with no security, no parking hassle, no traffic dramas, no crowded bus with luggage periodically bashing me in the shoulder and falling on my head. Watched a couple of movies, had a sandwich or two and was in London before I knew it.
Will only fly now if connecting.
Rgds.
AOTG.29 Apr 2013
at 11:44
SimonS1Participant“Scotland to southern England routes remain the main domestic air market as rail cannot compete with current journey times”
Depends what the journey is.
If it’s from Central London to Glasgow there probably isn’t much in it. Journey time on the train between 4.5 and 5 hours seems long, however when you add in the time getting to Heathrow, check in/security (Heathrow website says 90 mins), the flight, getting into the city at the other end there probably isn’t more than an hour in it.
29 Apr 2013
at 11:45
TimFitzgeraldTCParticipantAgree with the sentiments above. I’d possibly only fly domestically if from London to Aberdeen or Inverness, though only if time constrained as train is a much nicer way to travel, especially if there is the option of cheap first class tickets.
In the last 3 years I have never sold a Manchester to London domestic return on a plane. Only have sold in connection with another flight. I think I have only done one Edinburgh to London in the same time.
I am always curious as to the number of people who are on short haul flights (say Paris to London) who are connecting onwards to destination that could be flown direct from the original point. e.g. LHR-CDG-MIA when you could go LHR-MIA (or vv). It seems a failure of the market that when capacity (slots) is scarce and the environmental damage caused by 1000’s of passengers filing planes that may not need to be flown. I am keeping this short but hopefully the point is there.
29 Apr 2013
at 11:55
canuckladParticipantAOTG….
What time did you have to leave your gaff to get to Dundee station for the 9.05 departure? And how much is it compared to Cityjets £149 from Dundee 8.20am to LCY 10.00am ?
My commute when working in London was pretty much as follows….
Sunday…..Leave pub at 17.15
Arrive BD lounge 17.35
Depart EDI at 18.45
Arrive LHR at 20.00
Arrive Hotel at 20.30 (Pink tag dependant)Friday…..Leave work at 17.00
Arrive BD lounge 17.30
Depart EDI at 18.45
Arrive EDI at 20.00
Arrive in local at 20.30Normally cheaper than the £199 East Coast charged
29 Apr 2013
at 12:08
AllOverTheGaffParticipantcanucklad – 29/04/2013 12:08 GMT
What time did you have to leave your gaff to get to Dundee station for the 9.05 departure? And how much is it compared to Cityjets £149 from Dundee 8.20am to LCY 10.00am ?Hi canucklad
Left gaff at 08:40 only because I am anal about timekeeping. I could have left a little later than that….
The Cityjet flights are good, but never have I got the price of £149.00, the cheapest I think I’ve been is about £225.00. And the flight back isn’t great, think it lands at 17:30 or something like that, they changed the schedule a year or so ago and it is not suitable for me at all now. Which is a shame because it is a good service and LCY is a top airport.
Price for train for myself and my daughter is only £220.00 return in first class, real no brainer that one.
We’re back again at the end of May, doing exactly the same albeit the fare was a little more expensive at £260.00.
Rgds.
AOTG.29 Apr 2013
at 12:14
SimonS1ParticipantTim – fully agree there, it doesn’t make any sense other than looking at the prices.
I have a couple of days with a client in Nairobi next week, out on Tuesday and back Thursday or Friday. Cheapest economy fare with BA was £1,600+, however I booked via Dubai with EK for £484.
The savings have basically paid for 5 days in Dubai with clients and still some change to spare.
No wonder Virgin threw in the towel and BA has given up on Dar.
29 Apr 2013
at 13:13
TimFitzgeraldTCParticipantHi Simon
Totally understand it is a pricing / convenience thing. But that is my opinion is where the free market isn’t working as well as it could. I’d be interested in the number of transfer passengers per day on European connecting flights when they could have been direct.
As an aside – could have got BA from the 7th to 10th May much cheaper than £1600 – though not close to EK £484. Understandable why they are doing well (and a quality carrier as well for the most part). And you have got benefit of combining with your clients in Dubai so winner all round!
29 Apr 2013
at 13:25
Irons80ParticipantI would have to agree with the sentiments regarding LHR to Manchester or Leeds… the train is much more convenient than flying.
However, I have to disagree about EDI or GLA. Where I live in London, you have to get a cab or tube to Euston or KX, so that can take up to an hour and then you have a 4 hour + train trip. Therefore, I’d rather simply drive to airport, park, enjoy the lounge and then it’s a short flight to EDI. I still feel overall it’s a quicker and nicer experience than the train.
Interestingly, recently I flew to LBA for a meeting and then took a train to EDI for another meeting and flew home. It was no more than the train and flying to Leeds was certainly a novel experience.
29 Apr 2013
at 13:59
Binman62ParticipantTrains are fabulous if travelling city centre to city centre. If however you live in Berkshire or anywhere on a commuter line in the south East, then getting to GLA EDI ABZ INV or even Dundee can become a lengthy, expensive and pretty ghastly experience. Ascot to London is almost an hour with interminable stops only to then have to get across London. Doing that with bags is the travel form of water boarding!
Even something as straightforward as a trip to Nottingham becomes laughable. 1 adult and 2 kids was quoted at over £300 and was going to take 4 to 5 hours. It takes 2 hours to drive and £50 in fuel.
It has been years since I last used a train for a long distance journey in the UK. Flying for all its faults is usually better value and faster and given my location I would not dream of using a train to get to MAN, NCL, GLA, EDI or ABZ.
In Europe it is a totally different experience where trains are fast efficient, clean and cheap. In many European countries the platform your train will depart from is printed on timetables and even the stopping position of your carriage is made clear. When arriving at airports you often have access to the national rail carriers in or connected to the airport, not some privatised monopoly who charge more per mile than Concorde cost.
I have travelled more by train in Europe than I have ever done in the UK and have been fortunate never to have had a bad experience, even in Italy!
29 Apr 2013
at 14:14
SimonS1ParticipantHi Tim
Yes I agree, but there are so many variables. Government taxes make a short hop to Europe to connect much more viable. Also capacity drives down prices, EK for example has 8 flights from London each day and 2 on to Nairobi each day. I can’t see how things could ever be on a level playing field.
The whole thing needs a rethink, just in the same way as flying to places like Leeds and Manchester from LHR just uses up scarce capacity in a very inefficient way.
29 Apr 2013
at 14:32
BeckyBoopParticipantBinman you should think about getting yourself one of these.
http://www.familyandfriends-railcard.co.uk/
Also you should look to book in advance look out for offers with the TOC’s to get the best ticket prices.
On seperate note you might get lucky if HS2 ever gets the go ahead because Wille Walsh is a strong supporter of it and wants links into LHR 🙂
29 Apr 2013
at 14:59
AMcWhirterParticipantHello BigDog
These stats are interesting. The point is that they are not broken down on a route by route basis.
I am currently researching a future article where East Coast is mentioned and the FT (who took the figures from an ATOC press release) talk about market share jumping from 29 per cent in 2006 to 46 per cent in 2012.
But the rail/air market share between Edinburgh and London or vice versa is much lower.
And traditionally it has been lower still on the West Coast between Glasgow and London because the train journey takes longer and, in any case, the Pendolino trains have limited capacity and they simply couldn’t cope with many more passengers.
The official figures from East Coast itself show a market share of 14 per cent in 2011, increasing to 23 per cent in 2012.
East Coast expects a further increase in 2013 but I do feel that it will be difficult to achieve in light of competition from Little Red who is adding over 1,000 one-way seats every day (based on six flights by 174-seater A320s) to the London-Edinburgh route.
Granted, Little Red has been set up to carry transfer passengers but there will only be a limited number of these. If you look at Little Red’s pricing, it is already competitive with rail for business trips.
I agree that rail links to airports would free up airport capacity. This is the very subject which I have covered in the rail-air feature which will appear in our May issue.
I doubt if the BA/Eurostar JV will ever happen because the booking systems are so different.
It’s a pity that AF never got round to competing against Eurostar on London-Paris. It had the right backing and the right product. And AF would have got the ticketing to work.
29 Apr 2013
at 14:59
travelworldParticipantAlex- I seem to recall in the dim and distant past that the most expensive Eurostar ticket could be swapped free of charge for an air ticket (at least to/from Paris). Am I right, or did I dream it?
29 Apr 2013
at 15:10 -
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