Is Turkish Airlines Endangering ALL of Us?
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at 23:12 by LeTigre.
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VintageKrugParticipantNine people died when a Turkish Airlines 737 crashed in Amsterdam in 2009:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/25/plane-crash-amsterdam-schiphol-turkish
Most airlines have incidents from time to time, and an unblemished record is a rarity. But most airlines make strongest efforts to make safety and training the number one priority.
More recently, there have been a number of other minor incidents involving Turkish, as well as anecdotal report of a lax safety culture on board the aircraft.
The latest more serious incident was a near miss over Central London on 29 July:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11237496
“…the Turkish flight crew had not “followed the commands” of three on-board collision-avoidance warnings and the Citation jet did not even have the equipment, known as TCAS II.”
Some quite alarming detail on this in the latest AAIB September Bulletin (page 49 onwards on a near miss between D-ITAN Cessna TC-JJA 777:
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Bulletin%209-2010.pdf
There is apparently another more recent incident which has yet to be published.
The lack of a proper culture of safety at Turkish is of great concern, particularly when operating above densely populated cities and in highly trafficked airspace.
11 Sep 2010
at 16:38
SimonRowberryParticipantVK
I could not agree with you more.
Please see my various earlier posts about my concerns regarding their safety.
Not least, my comments regarding their appalling attitude towards implementing basic procedures on landing – and this was a matter of weeks after the AMS accident, which also occurred on landing. I was also threatened with explusion from the CIP Lounge at IST for having the nerve to make a complaint about it.
I concur with all you say and would strongly advise against using the carrier, even if their Business Class fares are “soft” and (as one previous poster put it) they have “good grub.”
Regards, Simon
11 Sep 2010
at 18:00
BullfrogParticipantVK raises a point that has concerned me for many years.
Whilst it would be a geographical nightmare, it is better to ban low flying commercial aircraft / aircraft over densely populated London BEFORE the need arises after some tragic accident.
This would be good planning & would follow the procedures taken over Paris which has a better location in terms of geography.
Apart from the issues VK raises with THY, there were numerous problems years ago when Malaysian Airlines were landing with insufficient fuel to taxi from the main runway to the ‘disembarkment’ gate.
“Lets close the gate before the horse has bolted” for a change !
12 Sep 2010
at 00:16
JordanDParticipantI think we should be very careful here: Simon – the aircraft in both cases you mention were hardly “old planes” – the 737-800 involved in the Amsterdam incident was not quite 7 years old, and 777-300ER involved in the airprox incident over London was only delivered to Jet Airways in 2007, some 2 years prior.
From other sources, it appears that the incident in London took place less than two months after the aircraft in question had been transferred to THY from Jet Airways after a conversion of a wet lease to a dry lease agreement. It begs the question therefore, with part of the report condemning data devices, if the aircraft had had some technical issues prior to its service with THY (why would they accept a dodgy FDR?).
True, the reports into both incidents (which both had the involvement of the AAIB) were not favourable to Turkish Airlines. Lessons should be learnt and done so quickly.
12 Sep 2010
at 10:08
SimonRowberryParticipantHi Jordan
My post was related to TK’s attitude towards onboard safety procedures rather than aircraft age or ATC issues.
Regards, Simon
12 Sep 2010
at 10:38
JordanDParticipantSimon – apologies, I was going along with the thread title.
As for inflight procedures, I’ve never flown Turkish Airlines, but if others I have flown with in the last two years are to go by, there is a more widespread problem with not ensuring all seat backs are up, electronic devices are off (and ear plugs unplugged), and that window blinds are up.
13 Sep 2010
at 10:13
craigwatsonParticipantIt may have something to do with the fact that in controlled airspace, especially close to the airport you get lots of spurious TCAS warnings
15 Sep 2010
at 11:26
VintageKrugParticipantBut to ignore three separate systems does seem a little excessive? Is that normal procedure?
23 Sep 2010
at 07:06
DisgustedofSwieqiParticipantI think it is a little dangerous to try to discuss the use of systems, such as TCAS, without the appropriate training.
For example, TCAS TAs do not mandate action, whereas RAs do.
I certainly don’t understand the finer points and would not wish to give an opinion as to whether ignoring alerts is ‘excessive.’
Flying a jet airliner is a complex and highly skilled role – I have a PPL and have flown piston twins and I am aware of the huge knowledge gap between line pilots and me.
May I suggest it would be wise not to be too judgmental?
23 Sep 2010
at 11:40
VintageKrugParticipantI only ask as some have suggested it is perfectly normal and acceptable to ignore these warnings over crowded airspace (surely exactly when they should at the very least be given some credence).
The AAIB is pretty judgemental about this incident, and rightly so:
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Bulletin%209-2010.pdf
23 Sep 2010
at 11:51
DisgustedofSwieqiParticipantVintage Krug
Thanks for posting the link to the AAIB bulletin.
From what I read, this was a complex and rapidly changing situation.
At the end of the day, the commander of an aircraft is ultimately responsible for the ship’s safety and the Turkish commander made a positive decision based on his situational awareness, a decision suported by the third RA in 10 seconds!
Having said that, I still don’t feel comfortable passing an opinion on his actions, since I don’t have the training or experience to do so.
But I will say that this incident looks like a mess, with a level bust made by an aircraft climbing at a high rate, a miss by ATC on a misread clearance and very quick developments in RAs.
Perhaps Martyn Sinclair may be able to help, as I believe that he is a commercial pilot.
I can’t see anyone saying it is perfectably acceptable to ignore TAs, but rather that spurious alerts can happen in crowded airspace, in my experience especially where there is a layer of uncontrolled airspace beneath controlled airspace.
As I said, in this instance, best perhaps to leave the judgments to those qualified.
23 Sep 2010
at 12:30
VintageKrugParticipantIt does indeed look like a mess, and the AAIB report is less than complimentary.
30 Sep 2010
at 07:48 -
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