Delsurrey - 13/07/2011 06:45 GMT
In the current edition of UP to speed, BA's inhouse magazine there is an article by a customer insight executive; "Are you sitting comfortably? An increasing number of our Club Europe customers are unfortunately saying no to this question when finding themselves in a cabin fitted with Space Saver seats. When the first of the new aircraft with universal seating throughout came on line last year, nearly 60% of our customers were highly satisfied with the comfort of their seat. This figure has dropped to 34% in May......" Amazingly despite admitting this there is no indication that BA are going to do anything to resolve the dissatisfaction.
DavidGoff - 13/07/2011 07:17 GMT
Not flown CE for a while now, but travelling in Sept LHR-GIB on A320.
Are the best seat A/C or D/F in your opinon ?
NTarrant - 13/07/2011 07:21 GMT
Interestingly in a previous edition of that magazine it was also stated that only 40% were satisfied with the catering. As a regular CE user I have seen hot towels and chocolate disappear. ON my regular route we have over the last three or four months been reduced to ceasar salads only except a choice of either chicken or salmon. I have made my views on the devaluing of the product on here before, some think I am petty about chocolates and hot towels, but they fail to understand the value of the product and those are vital componants. I have also complained to BA on many occasions.
Returning back to LGW yesterday in CE I was handed a hot towel soon after take off, I could not beleive it. Was this a fluke or are BA now making an effort to gie back to CE customers the little touches that make the journey and worthy of the extra cost? Time will tell.
VintageKrug - 13/07/2011 07:26 GMT
The return of hot towels and nuts started about two weeks ago. It suggests some increased investment in this cabin, and so it is just possible that it may not be canned as was very much on the cards last year.
I had a genuinely delicious roast chicken main course on a recent CE sector, so I do think catering has turned a corner, though of course it takes time to filter through the whole network.
The Space Saver seats (which are only fitted on a few aircraft) are not acceptable for CE, and I would urge you to write into BA if you experience these seats, and complain. BA should restrict those aircraft to Domestic services, or the shortest shorthaul; unfortunately that's not compatible with they way in which BA deploys its shorthaul fleet.
I was vociferous in my complaints last time the seating configuration in CE was changed; BA listened and took up exactly the configuration I (and others) had suggested:
http://www.businesstraveller.com/discussion/topic/Rumour-BA-Club-Europe-Returns-to-Converted-Widened-Seating,-Remaining-2-2,-from-August-12
Hot towels are back...have had them on 5 out of 6 CE trips in the past fortnight. Also, nuts are back - packets of macadamias usually doled out in Club World. Catering still isn't too swift, but hopefully the new "Head of Customer" (I think that is his title) will sort things out. If you want really bad CE catering, head to BA CityFlyer. Ugh. I'd happily take a ceasar salad - chicken or salmon!
The space saver seating referred to by Delsurrey is only on a few aircraft, and are supposed to be used on domestic UK routes. The seats do not flex at all (so you end up in normal economy seats with the middle seat blocked out...a la Swiss, for example), rather than a slightly more generous seat width of normal Club Europe.
Bill_Hants - 13/07/2011 08:23 GMT
Hot towels (back), chocolates (still AWOL), the unvarying diet of ceaser (sic), chicken and salmon salads ....
Are these really vital componants (sic) for barely an hour in the air?
And there is a choice .... flybe !!
Bill
Stowage222 - 13/07/2011 08:41 GMT
BTW, hot towels are coming to a WT+ cabin on a WW aircraft near you soon!
Binman62 - 13/07/2011 08:55 GMT
Flew for an hour at the weekend in euro Traveller....in 4A, so one of the convertor seats. Uncomfortable , thank fully just for the hour.
Cannot understand why anyone would pay a Club Europe fare on a point to point flight. As part of a connection to a long haul the separate cabin is useful. (that said the load factor of 25% out bound on a Friday night and 18% on the return would suggest not many are.)
Over 2.5 hours and Club Europe, and for that matter business on any European carrier, is simply unacceptable.
Bill_Hants - 13/07/2011 09:00 GMT
I agree Binman, paying a premium fare for what amounts to an airborne bus journey seems incomprehensible. But, expecting hot towels, haute cuisine etc. as well ...
Bill
VintageKrug - 13/07/2011 09:14 GMT
Mr Meldrew appears to be waging a one-man vendetta against Club Europe.
But as he himself states, there really isn't anything better out there in the sub 2.5 hour European market, and CE (with convertor seats) is well ahead of most. Above the 2.5 hour it has long been my position that it would be *nice* to see a better product, but that this market is limited, and appreciates frequency of service, and the total BA package over and above the hard product on board.
You only have to witness Aeroflot's far superior hard product on the Moscow route while BA still manages to charge very high, if not higher fares for CE.
In addition to the nuts and hot towels, you should expect significant changes on certain key "longer" routes with the shorthaul CE offering to be announced very shortly.
When CE can be had for as little as £59 per sector more than a regular EuroTraveller fare, there is plenty of reason to upgrade, especially for those without BAEC status.
1. Priority check in
2. Increased checked baggage allowance.
3. Access to the BA Galleries/Terraces lounges for magazines, newspapers and food and drinks including champagne (or sparkling wine in a few non-UK locations) pre-flight.
4. Priority boarding
5. Extra room to store carry-on baggage
6. No person next to you, so you can read business or personal papers with more privacy, or spread out into the seat next to you.
7. The option of having your jacket or coat hung for you in the forward locker
8. A tray service food offering on board, including champagne.
9. At least two "bar runs" for those with a thirst.
10. Priority disembarkation.
11. Additional Tier Points and miles for the cabin flown.
Load factors for Club Europe are increasing and while there was considerable concern that the offering would be pulled at LGW, it does seem to have had a stay of execution for the meantime.
I am perplexed, as Meldrew62 repeatedly slates CE and dissuades people from flying in it, yet at the same time doesn't offer a credible alternative, and would appear to wish the CE cabin was eliminated altogether.
Vintage Krug
Why don't you read what Binman writes and then objectively analyse it before coming to a conclusion?
Binman has his view, you have yours.
Being rude by calling him Victor Meldrew is not usually the way on here and you yourself have complained about it in the past.
But if it is okay to be rude, I think I shall start referencing you as Vintage Prat, with apologies to M Noilly for not including his name, as it loses cadence.
The last resort of a soundrel is invoking nationalism, the second last is smearing a cstomer by suggesting that they should be in some way capable of fixing a boken service, because they have the audacity to say that they are unsatisfied with the service.
When you complain that people say you are a rep of BA, you create this yourself by taking a constant line that even the most ambitious of repitilian corporate executives would admire.
NTarrant - 13/07/2011 09:41 GMT
Hot towels may have been brought back at LHR two weeks ago, but from what I was told LGW was Monday. I didn't get one on Sunday or on my journeys last week.
For those of you that feel one hour in CE is excessive, if you need a fully flexible ticket you automatically get CE.
VintageKrug - 13/07/2011 09:47 GMT
The trouble is, Sweiqi, that I am of the same opinion; CE standards should be maintained.
And I offered 11 reasons why the Binman was misguided in his belief that there were no reasons to pay a modest extra supplement for CE; much better "analysis" than his sweeping statement that CE was "unacceptable".
Why is it apparently "unacceptable", and what other offerings out there are such a rip-roaring success that BA should adopt that model?
The Binman's every foray out of his front door seems blighted and doomed to result in some sort of dissatisfaction; it's a wonder he doesn't just stay home.
As a regular user of the product (as a customer, as I am in no way connected to the transport industry), I am fully aware of the need to offer service differentiation. And I have criticised BA for the previous lack of differentiation which it (briefly) offered in the past. You can see evidence of that in the link I posted earlier:
http://www.businesstraveller.com/discussion/topic/Rumour-BA-Club-Europe-Returns-to-Converted-Widened-Seating,-Remaining-2-2,-from-August-12
This puts paid to your unfounded allegation that I take a "corporate" line. I do not.
My experience is that CE offers a suitably differentiated product at an appropriate cost. If the service were to be improved (for instance offering fixed 2+2 Business Class seating as is the case in the US) that this would mean the fleet would become less flexible, more costly to operate and increase prices, putting the cabin out of reach to most, reducing demand further and rendering the offering uneconomic, thus playing into the hands of those who would see no premium cabin on shorthaul.
Prat
"When you complain that people say you are a rep of BA, you create this yourself by taking a constant line that even the most ambitious of repitilian corporate executives would admire."
Read again. Nowhere did I say you take a corporate line.
This is one of your regular behaviours, you read, but do not understand.
Am I correct in thinking that you are not a native English speaker?
Binman62 - 13/07/2011 11:45 GMT
“I am perplexed, as Meldrew62 repeatedly slates CE and dissuades people from flying in it, yet at the same time doesn't offer a credible alternative, and would appear to wish the CE cabin was eliminated altogether.”
I had no idea I had such influence on the travel habits of the readers of BT. I suspect that my influence is greatly exaggerated.
I have a view and based on personal experience express it.
My views of the products I buy or experience are just that, a view but in 2010 this was universally bad. This may have been bad luck, volcanoes, snow and strikes or may have been symptomatic of a malaise and disinterest in customers at BA. Whatever the cause the impact on me was considerable.
2011 has been better in that disruption has not occurred but the product being served has deteriorated while fares have risen sharply. Dirty cabins and toilets in refurbished First, or old product with clapped out IFE and catering that simply is below par and which was embarrassing for the crew to serve. The crew were however were the only highlight.
Other flights were fine, but the service on the ground and in the air is increasingly perfunctory and if BA wishes to again be a great airline then frankly they must do more. It is hugely disappointing for example that having been given their own terminal at LHR that they have not been able to build on the enormous benefits that that gave them.
Their ground product is world class if you have lounge access (except for baggage and premium passenger coaching) but it is not repeated in the air where I actually spend more time with them.
Others will have a different experience and their views are as valid and valuable as my own.
Regarding Club Europe I have long advocated a return to a First Class Short haul product particularly over 2.5 hours. A decent seat, similar to US and Asian carriers with catering to match the time of day and flight duration. IFE, moving maps and access to telephone and data services at a price that does not require a Euro millions win. Space for coats, hand baggage and an end to fighting the crew for over locker space. It may not be part of BA’s business plan but it is clearly possible given that many others already do it, except in Europe.
As for the benefits lauded in the list I would comment as follows.
1. Priority check in.
Don’t need to fly club, can get this with Silver card
2. Increased checked baggage allowance.
Don’t need to fly club, can get this with silver card
3. Access to the BA Galleries/Terraces lounges for magazines, newspapers and food and drinks including champagne (or sparkling wine in a few non-UK locations) pre-flight.
Don’t need to fly club, can get this with silver card.
4. Priority boarding.
Don’t need to fly club, can get this with silver card…..........not available on my flight last weekend ex Europe.
5. Extra room to store carry-on baggage
Simply untrue, the amount of leg room is exactly the same. Personal space is a little larger but in row 1 you cannot store bags or anything else on the floor. Invariably the overhead lockers have the crew bags.
In any event if in first row of Euro Traveller affords the same amount of space in Seat A and B.
6. No person next to you, so you can read business or personal papers with more privacy, or spread out into the seat next to you.
You are a few extra inches away from the person seated beside you. It is not a full size seat space. You may avoid rubbing shoulders as in Euro traveller but it is hardly a haven of peace and privacy.
You can also get this in Euro traveller if you pre select you seat, albeit in just the first row.
7. The option of having your jacket or coat hung for you in the forward locker…….
Surely a club style product can offer more than this?
8. A tray service food offering on board, including champagne.
And as many have said a catering product that has been enhanced into oblivion and is wholly inconsistent.
9. At least two "bar runs" for those with a thirst.
I can press the call button in Euro traveller I don’t need to be in club to get 2 drinks.
10. Priority disembarkation.
Would be difficult not to on a single aisle aircraft with door 1 being used as the exit.
11. Additional Tier Points and miles for the cabin flown
Accepted this is better.
When looked at objectively the list above does not really add a lot to the benefits available to most card holders.
VintageKrug - 13/07/2011 11:51 GMT
While I agree that benefit is maximised for those without status, regular EuroTraveller passengers would struggle to get all those benefits without status, and it usually takes a few CE sectors to get that Silver card in the first place.
So, you have set out why you don't believe CE is a credible option, and have advocated a dedicated First Class style cabin.
Do you think there is a reason BA, and indeed every other carrier, doesn't offer this style of service on shorter European flights?
Any reason at all?
"Any reason at all?"
Because they can get away with it.
Why can they get way with it? That is the question.
Swissdiver - 13/07/2011 12:40 GMT
Well, guys, BA CE is still far better than AF, LH or LX equivalent...
Tirana1 - 13/07/2011 12:57 GMT
As an occasional poster to this forum (but a frequent user of CE - some 20 or so sectors this year, including longer DME, IST journeys) some key points;
1) CE is often no more expensive than a fully flexible economy ticket - I invariably do need total flexibility, so there is no net additional cost
2) Catering on anything more than the shortest routes has actually got a lot better recently - often it is rather good. (Currently, I would rate it as often better than the dull and inadequate offerings in Club World.) Afternoon tea with scones and champagne returning to blighty is a particular treat !
3) If you sit on the D/F side of the aircraft you do get a full empty seat - the additional room is very useful for working. My ability to spread out papers and thus use travel time profitably means this utility alone warrants use of CE.
4) The space saver seats are cheap and nasty - something akin to a low-cost offering. They should go.
5) The state of the short haul 767's is a disgrace - CE on a 3.5 hour flight is ok but on a clapped out short haul 767, not good. Their continued use on ultra expensive routes such as DME reflects badly on BA.
6) I also fly business short haul on BMI, Swiss and Austrian - BA is the best of the bunch by a country mile. The significant exception is BMI to DME which is by far the best choice for that route, offering a proper mid-haul product (ironically, using BA's old Club World cradle seats) .
7) In summary, for me, CE is a reason for choosing to fly with BA and almost always is a pleasant experience. Sometimes it is excellent. But on short haul 767's it is awful. I am prepared to pay a higher fare for CE if what I get represents value - for me it does. Given load factors to my normal destinations (DME, LIN, ARN, VIE, ZRH) I suspect many others agree. BA have not lost the plot at all - for me, they have a rather good product overall which, crucially, helps me use travel time efficiently and profitably.
