Where has BA’s service gone?

On a recent flight from Dubai to London, it was noticeable the cabin crew are not happy. From boarding to disembarking, the morale was poor, the crew were rude and the service received was comparable to Ryan Air.

I was in the galley stretching my legs when I spoke to one of the crew. He told me that the attitude of staff is now “I don’t care” and that most of them have now lost the pride factor of working for our national airline. It is simply nothing more than a job and to provide a good service is an added extra so why bother. Furthermore, the feeling amongst staff is that they will be either sacked or forced to leave, so again, the feeling is “why bother”….

It was so disappointing to hear such negative feedback and to see that the crew, who are usually all smiley, polite and eager to do a good job, look tired, upset and disinterested. I have a feeling if things continue then those who do book with BA for the service side of things will try other airlines.

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Customer experiences such as yours are clearly unacceptable - on any carrier, at any price. I'd be sure to email your experiences to BA, including full details of your booking, as they need to know.

Having said that, BA will have flown to and from nearly 150 other destinations that same day, with tens of thousands of passengers and thousands of cabin crew. To suggest that one (still unacceptable) experience is defacto a reflection of the company as a whole has to be questioned.

I've only flown Ryanair personally once, and I actually found the crew to be very friendly and personable. I couldn't comment on their training and I didn't like the brash cabin interior and the constant selling - but you pays your money and you takes your choice. From the service point-of-view, I'd no more suggest that Ryanair's service must be uniformly excellent on the basis of my single experience, than I would that Air New Zealand's must be dire because I once had a rotten flight.

Some here will say that others' experiences posted about BA back up your impression, but unfortunately there are so many folks with a specific axe to grind, and flag carriers are uniformly criticised by their domestic market media, that I'm afraid that argument doesn't really hold water. You'll find Australians berating Qantas just as much as Britons laud them. It's human nature, apparently.

In passing, for anyone who's interested to know some of what BA are communicating to their crews then this is it:

"Separating the facts about cabin crew changes from some of the fiction you may have heard.

FICTION: We are introducing new contracts for existing cabin crew.

FACT: You keep your current pay and conditions.

FICTION: The company wants to cut your pay.

FACT: Your basic would be frozen for two years but 75% of cabin crew will get at 2-7% increment this year and next. Unite has proposed a pay cut.

FICTION: The company is forcing cabin crew to leave.

FACT: The cost savings are delivered through voluntary options for cabin crew.

FICTION: New Fleet is set in stone and you will be forced to join it in the future.

FACT: We've been talking for nine months and we've agreed to look at alternatives to New Fleet.

FICTION: You will lose pay and allowances on New Fleet. The monthly payment is a done deal.

FACT: We've offered a new monthly travel payment to protect your current average variable pay. It's only an offer.

FICTION: Unite's proposal offers £173m [of savings].

FACT: Our plan offers £127m of cost savings. Unite's proposal offers £54m.

FICTION: A yes vote is a bargaining tool to improve the deal.

FACT: A yes vote is a vote for a strike."

NB: I take no view here on any part of the above, nor its communication to BA employees.

I would point out that BD's recent announcement of 600 compulsory redundancies doesn't appear to be getting a lot of airtime on here though!

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This is a reflection of the current times and is rather universal, particularly in "developed" countries. Basically, it all boils down to whether you actually like the job you're in. It shows when you do like your job, and in turn, I just would not believe that employers such as BA will not notice one's enthusiasm. That's where us FF should bother and write in if we find these "rare gems" on board who "enjoy" their work. Unfortunately, what comes naturally is all too hard, "just a job" attitude, because one tries too hard, takes too much effort and it shows!!

However, to be fair, BA is also currently going through a real hard time. It's gotten really big, with the idea that, being really big, one can have critical mass to "bully" their way to the top and of course, if one was on the top of this massive structure, one can justify their salaries. Not so, the service industry which is what BA is in, works best in smaller discrete units. It needs to have a heart because they are working for people and need to be treating their most important resource like people - the coal face people, viz the flight attendents.

It;s time, BA shareholders see this and bring on more capable people on the top, rather than stick to the familiar and be "fed" with the cr***. Only then will we be proud again of our airline.

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Any organisation, any Business, must inspire their workforce & motivate their teams. I fly with many International Airlines on many routes world wide as a customer in all classes each year. Yes, they are all having tough times. However, their is no loss of morale, staff are not neglected, or imposed upon as the British Airways staff. There is not one Airline where the senior Management, would be in such conflict with their staff as BA! Walsh & his team need to be kicked out, BA being well down the slippery slope already. It has treated its customers the same as its crews, clearly, you all comment as such on here. The fundamental problem with BA is its senior management team. They have the wrong approach, the wrong arrogant attitudes, lack communications skills, teamwork, & see spin on elements such as the "Amaazing LCY- NYC" route (Yawn Yawn), as distraction from their mistakes.

More to follow with strikes, Worldwide this will be reported, & really their is so much avoidance of BA booking now, it will be one of the last fatal blows for BA. Walsh & his team should be sacked, if you want BA to survive. They show not even the basic level of skills & leadership neccessary, for any organisational, or leadership role.

Other Airlines are in the same situation, & have no such conflicts with their teams or loyalty from customers! Until you fix that

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I'm afraid that it is quite disingenuous to suggest that other airlines do not have the same (or similar) IR issues that currently face BA.

Reasonably informed observers of the industry would be able to name at least the four network carriers that I can think of off the top of my head that have potentially even more fraught issues to deal with.

Pithy theories will not assist any of them in facing contemporary global commercial, political and economic realities.

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Mark, one can't wish for Walsh and his cohorts to just vanish. This would cause a huge, fatal vacuum. Who would replace Walsh? Are we even sure there is anyone remotely competent to replace Walsh and co?

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Many have been asking for Walsh's head for a long time. He appears a hypocrit in the airline industry, & certainly few other Airlines would offer him a job, having made such a mess at BA. He has personally avoided taking responsibility for every major failure of BA Service, in the last years, previous crew strikes, catering strikes, cuts, charges, luggage losses & delays.

Frankly, there are some excellent troubleshooter Senior Managers of Airlines out there, & enormous amounts of candidates to take on his role. Frankly, anyone with the common sense he lacks, & good teamwork & communication skills would be ideal. He simply does not have the business accumin to run an airline, only destroy it!

You could employ a supermarket Manager to run BA, as they would be more in touch & have the appropriate skills & communication skills to lead a team & not alienate them to start with. He is the jey to whether BA will survive, its his attitude & presence that is causing such conflict with the staff & alienating his customers. If you dont then BA will not survive if the damage he causes continues,

Other Airlines are working with & not imposing in these difficult time. None have the constant bad PR of BA which is about to get worse when the strikes hit.

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Mark,

SK may dwarf BA in size, but not a single day goes by without some SK bashing in the Scandinavian press.

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It might be worth pointing out that Willie Walsh will no longer be the BA CEO when the airline merges with Iberia. In fact, the current CFO, Keith Williams will take the reins of the airlines and Willie Walsh will be the joint-CEO of the holdings company...

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Once again, MR9 relentlessly bashes his anti-Walsh drum, while the share price continues its rising trend.

The fact that a good friend of MR9’s was made redundant several months ago by BA seems to inspire this continued vilification. So it’s entirely personally motivated.

Despite MR9’s professed knowledge of the airline (despite being a Clinical Director at the Department of Health, and warning of massive numbers of DEATHS from swine flu this year) he has clearly stated he never flies British Airways.

If he doesn't fly the airline, how would he know?

British Airways, like many firms, is going through an unprecedented period of uncertainty right now. And no-one could rightly say everything is rosy. However, to castigate his management is unwarranted, entirely driven by personal issues, and doesn’t align with the many successes seen during his tenure:

- Economic shocks including SARS, Iraq War, Oil Rises, APD Tax Increases, Food Strikes, Terrorist Threats, 777 crash and Credit Crunch weathered

- New routes to Vegas, Maldives, Sharm and Punta Cana launched in 2010

- New fleet of shorthaul airbuses and embraers, longhaul 777s and A318s delivered or being delivered

- Fully funded strategic fleet replacement in the form of A380s and 787s on order

- Innovative Club World London City all business class service launched

- Rollout of www.newclubworld.com complete

- New First cabin on the way

- Completely new Flagship LHR Terminal 5, and new lounges in Terminal 3

- Galleries concept being rolled out globally

- Merger with Iberia almost concluded

- Potential merger with American Airlines on the cards

- Longstanding structural Union issues soon to be addressed

The City agrees, seeing value in BA and an opportunity for future profitability, with Black Rock increasing its stake in the airline above 13% last week.

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not to mention taking away food and charging to book seats

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Both of which were designed to raise revenue as the cost base is simply too high.

Reduce the cost base by implementing the changes set out by management and the need for these essential cutbacks will reduce.

There is already a rumour of food coming back in some form or other in European routes sometime next year.

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Good to see Vintage Krug is alive,well, and regurgitating once again. ;o) MR9 is entitled to say what he wants, as are you VK. If you don't like it, go back to the BA lounge. :o)

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But BA is being bashed in the press worldwide...Not just their own home country. Lets see what happens when the crews go on strike, & BA suspend their services, for yet another reason, again.

As for the Yo-Yo Management at BA...No food - food coming back, Exec Club level restrictions -now reversed...in every aspect of their business, that stands alone really. Instant Gratification / (cash seeking) child like short term reactive management , & Parental dealings with customers...

No wonder we see the comments on here from previously loyal customers, & no one wants to book ahead with BA anymore. In Australia BA has become "Bloody Awful"...

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I read with interest Continentals Club's fact & fiction ( are you Willie Walsh's brother?- only kidding). For the sake of argument I'll read that as an accurate account of what is on the table.It does however raise an onging and growing problem for most large companies, and small ones for that matter, and that is the ability to articulate and communicate key mesages clearly that are believable and credible without any hint of spinning. If Continental Club is right then why is BA having such a torrid time getting it's points across or is Unite better at it. Finally we should keep in view this "just a job" attitude hasn't suddenly developed overnight. It has been growing year by year for many years. A classic example of the 'boiled frog syndrome' and for those of you not familiar with that just Google it. The buck for that stops at the door of Willie Walsh, past CEO's and Unites General Secretaries over time.

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I note the flight was ex Dubai back to London. On return legs,any crew of any carrier are often tired. Frequently this is not a rostering issue but one of the crews having a "good time" at the destination. Perhaps Dubai is a fun place to party and shop - still........

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SUBSEQUENT POSTS DELETED.

GENTLEMEN

THIS HAS GOT TO STOP.

In the last two weeks I have been contacted by both email and phone by users concerned about the direction this forum is heading, and have had to warn several users, and ban others because of persistent personal abuse of posters on this forum.

Strong opinions are fine, but insulting other posters is not.

We will not tolerate it and it should not be tolerated.

The forum is here for everyone to enjoy/ learn from / be amused by.

Sexual, personal, racist and homophobic comments, whether dressed up with knowing winks or not are not acceptable.

If you have something to say about the topic, then post.

If all you have to say is about the other poster, then don't.

Tom Otley Editor

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On December 4th flying BA 0228 BWI > LHR I had the opposite experience. Flying stowage in 30A at back of aircraft on m y airmiles the entire crew from cockpit to rear economy galley did a great job and re-affirmed that all BA flight/cabin crews can be a briliant customer service machine, as well as human beings.

Flight had problems boarding due to TSA having 2 people to scan all pax to international pier..delayed about 5/6 pax but a smile from a/c door about being 1 minute before boad time, assistance with an oversized overweight [guilty] crammed laptop bag..pax moved around as there were a few spare seats. Push back basically on time. A/c took off into turbulence and Lady captain told all had to delay in-flight for extra 30 minutes..bad turbulence got through that then normal service crammed into 30 mins less time for crew.. normal overnight flight..I had to get a bottle of water a few times but plasant crew at ungodly hour in rear galley..flight crew up for morning call usual delay into LHR and T5, ended up with a c 10 mins delay and landed ok, taxi to remote T5 stand but held 5 metres short as auto park system failed c0-pilot warns pax to stay seated and then we nudged the final few metres to park, as I'm at rear I was off last onto 3rd schedule bus which was delayed rain falling on steps so crew says back into plane rest in seats, young mum with 2 under 4's made a big fuss of by several cabin crew and looked after, I got a 90 seconds ground upgrade to Busines class to put my bags and chat to business cabin steward about B767 ages and how good the fleet was wearing and how comfortable they felt even at rear economy..then away we all go..mum being helped down stairs to bus..

Entire crew worked well as a team. I don't know about you but standing up for hours at a time while trying to be polite and serve loads of people at ungodly hours is tough enough for me let alone to do it in style..

Just because they are under pressure workwise that crew did a great job and the fact that maybe a good 50%+ of pax were not British might mean a gain for UK 'export' revenues and a + for BA in general.

I really don't think you can generalise but if you can off the basis of my flight [ air miles one! ] they are doing a great job.

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Hello Everyone,

Tom, well said and thank you very much for taking such a tough line on those who frankly have been spoiling what is generally an excellent forum from which I have gained and hope occassionally given very useful information.

Hopefully your warning above will be enough to finally get through to people that we do not want those who abuse the forum to be a part of it any longer.

On a very positive note, I am just back from Tel Aviv having flown BA for the first time in a very long time and I have to say that overall it was a very positive experience. 767's both ways in Y class. VOD entertainment and food and service on both flights absolutely fine with great crews both ways. T5 was also a pleasure as I passed through security at 8.30pm on a Friday evening and there was no queue at all.

No status with BA so no lounge access but had a very nice meal at Wagamama as it was a short night flight (4 hrs 20 mins) and I wanted to snooze as much as I could.

In short then after this experience, i will certainly consider seriously flying BA again. I must admit, this is not the feedback post that I thought I would be writing about BA and I am pleasantly surprised and happy about that.

Safe travels,

Jonathan

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From the other end, I travelled LHR-DXB on Friday and returned yesterday in First and the service was top noch. The crew in both directions were attentive and polite and friendly. On the return journey. a day flight, the steward cam around as we neared LHR and had a nice word with all the passengers asking if we enjoyed the flight etc etc.

And well done Tom for removing the slagging match, it was getting very annoying.

Good to hear you enjoyed BA Jonathan

Both flights were completely full in all classes and overheard one passenger saying that he had difficulty in getting flights.

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Hi NTarrant,

I think I would have enjoyed the flight even more had I been at the front end, although on TLV that would have been CW as they do not offer F on TLV in Winter on the double 767 service. A crew member told me that he believes it will be upgraded to double 777 for the summer.

Glad to hear that F was up to scratch, particularly as expectations at that end of the plane are, rightly in my opinion, justifyably much higher.

Safe travels,

Jonathan

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Had a good Club Europe flight last night, good crew. Then again, BA crew usually do at least an acceptable job and it is the ground service that is frequently disappointing, as well as product cost cutting.

Strangely enough, after I declined the salad (had eaten a nice pork roast in Huxley's), the #1 CC member brought me some mixed nuts and made a comment that it was the least he could do and how embarrased he was that 'they' (which I assume meant the management) had cut the product so much.

I found this unsolicited comment insighful.

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Hi everyone !!

Yes, finally and absolutely right !--Tom it is time that you call the shots! I really hope that those affected users--finally realize the difference of straightforward and frankly comments without insulting and aggresively attacking someone personally. It is easy to insult someone blatantly rather than arguing objectively and still in a respectful way.

Coming back to the topic: it is obvious by now-that those employees who are affected the most of the developments and future contracts and therefore get less or lose job --won't have the go to show full service attitude to an employer who someone could not identify him/herself anymore. It is humane to say and act angrily and show indifference--but professionaly, absolutely a" no go". Whether it is hard and dreadful --the crew should not show their anger, deceptions and feelings so openly--they are still the face of the company and the contenance has to be uphold. There are other possibilities to show their anger and fear--but definitely not to the customers and definitely not in such indifference--more likely in an attitude : " I could actually get off the plane and the pax could help themselves"

Luckily they are still crews who are very professional and still dedicated to BA--which makes most BA pax still proud to fly BA and be freqeunt flyer in the Exec Club. So where has BA's service gone? Hopely only gone for a short while--and actually lost its way a bit--but in the future on track to success and like the good old days where pax really love to fly with this carrier.

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Hello Hess, nice to see you in print/screen again. I don't think that the service has gone, certainly my experience over the last 12 months and the post here seem to suggest the same.

The moral is that as has been expressed before there are always some staff in any organisation that will do what they can to create problems. I haven't found them but clearly some have.

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NT

I would agree with you if you qualify 'service in the air.'

But, IMHO, ground service has gone backwards in recent years.

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Expat - sorry yes I was refering to the service in the air. I have to be honest and say that the majority of my trips don't involve bag drops. My recent trip to DXB did and that was fine as was the checkin at SIN and SYD this year.

I was impressed by the service I recevied at LGW when I put the wrong card in the machine and told to go to a desk. I was travelling Club Europe and the checkin lady escorted me to the fast track, not that it is, lane at security.

I do find that there is a frosty reception at the north terraces lounge at T5 sometimes, which that has gone backwards.

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Hi N. !

You are right about the frosty attitude at the rececption, but my experiences were in both lounges . Flew recently and had twice the bad impression. But I really did not care that much-so ignored the lady. I was a bit surprised, but did not ask specifically why she has a face on that could really eat somebody out for nothing. I was in a hurry and wanted to get some food and drink before dashing to my next flight. Concerning the crew's attitude in my recent European flights with BA--It was so varying. The younger ones or more likely new recruits are more service oriented and friendly-interact with the pax positively--while the older ones, really make an attitude that angers you as a BA frequent flyer. I know about what could happen this month. As probably most of the older or experienced crew will have financial problems beginning in january 2010--but does it have to be so obvious that they are really pissed off. I am actually on the side of the crew in general--but the crew should still remember to do their job properly and not see the pax as their enemy.

Most BA flyers think that the crew earned too much or outdated contracts comparing to others in their field. So BA crews in general have to be carefully not to have the majority of their pax against them--more worst turn their back on BA and fly with the rival.

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NT

Thanks for the clarification, I agree with you.

Hess and others mention frosty attitude. I haven't ecountered this, although I do not fly very regularly.

There do seem to be some demoralised people, e.g. the CSD who gave me the nuts was clearly embarrassed at service levels and perhaps thought I was making a statement by declining the meal (I was not) and as I was absolutely exhausted, maybe thought I was doing a 'silent protest', whereas I just wanted to rest.

The frustration came out in the words and body language and it was certainly not anti passenger, but the message was clear.

The type of ground service was typified yesterday, when I received an email cancelling my flight from France to the UK and informing me I needed to visit BA.com to rebook or to call BA to cancel - the email did not even give a contact number, it assumed one would have an internet connection.

I find an email unacceptable, since BA does not now I have a Blackberry, only that I have a mobile telephone, the number of which they hold.

Why not an SMS? Cost cutting, no doubt.

There was no attempt to suggest a solution, I was simply chopped off the flight.

Whilst one may appreciate the knock on effects of weather, holding a premium card and travelling on a premium ticket, I do expect a premium service, but once again seem to have received exactly the same treatment as an economy, non card holding pax.

This is what I mean by the service going backwards and I vote with my feet these days, travelling BA only when the schedule dictates.

Thisis the second time this year (in circa 10 flights) that I have had the last flight of the day cancelled and been dumped.

The Executive Club agent, was polite, could not offer HOTAC for the next flight in the morning as it was a weather related problem (albeit 8 hours before the flight was due to depart.)

Having enjoyed the outbound flight, I now find myself completing insurance forms for the overnight accomodation and making my own way home via a different route (having canceled the BA flight and taken a refund.)

Thankfully, my home airline knows how to treat premium pax and they arranged for me to travel via another connection (avoiding London), so getting me home sveral hours before the alternative using BA.

Nonetheless, this latest experience will only make me more reluctant to choose BA next time. I was thinking about placing an 'F' ticket to the middle east in January, since I will have to travel from an engagement in London, but will now go to Swiss for that requirement.

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Really a sad impression of BA--I just don't wish any of us experience what you have experienced Expat C.

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Expat - certainly the service I received in First to DXB this week was second to none, so don't dismiss BA.

Contact from BA does leave a bit to be desired, back in June whilst my wife and I were in Ayres Rock I switched my phone on in the morning to find a message from BA saying there had been a change in cabin on my booking and to phone back quoting my booking reference.

Our imediate thoughts were for our journey home SYD-SIN-LHR, when I phoned the guy said there were no changes and confirmed the seat numbers. Thankfully this guy was switched on and then proceeded to go through my other six bookings and found on the sixth one that it refered to the booking for my DXB trip this week.

The issue was sorted, but potentially it could have been an expensive telephone call, all the caller had to do was say what the reference was and the date and journey.

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Another service fiasco! What is the problem of telling the pax exactly what flight is concerned. BA Service Centre could not just assume that a call without any specifical data of what flight is mattered--is information enough. As you have stated N.--pax could have more than one flight in his itineries--the more important part: getting hassled and insecured for nothing, 'cause the nice person from BA--did not stated it clearly. OH Boy ! where is BA's service really gone? At the moment --very unclear and inconsistent

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Nigel,

I too have had a very similar experience, so you are not alone in this.

Simon

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Although the site administrator requested not to spat at each other, this forum somehow became airline bashing with BA and SQ are at the receiving end. I also find DarrenJ starts a thred that sometimes contradictory. (see BA vs Virgin - who gets my vote). The problem is we travel with our favourite airlines and do not want to change. If someone does not like his favourite airlines, he/she has some right to criticise. However, nowadays other airlines' standards are so close to old guard, and so many options on schedule, one realy does have many alternatives. But for a very frequent traveller, who has the Gold card (or eqv.) status, it is always advantage as the Airlines recognise the frequent traveller quite well. The service in BA is generally okay - if someone is not happy, polite requests for the service is normally attended efficiently. What we want from Steward/Stewardess - massage our feet or sweet talk to us?

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I think expecting a foot massarge is a bit much in flight, depending on class of travel or tier there is always the Elemis spa. It does depend on what you mean by "sweet talk". As I mentioned earlier, on my flight from DXB-LHR in First this week, as we approached LHR the steward came around and spoke to each passenger asking if they had enjoyed the flight and asked how they were spending Christmas with a genuine interest. I call that good customer service and topped off a very nice journey with really good service.

What Expat, Hess, Simon and I have highlighted is that whilst the service in the air is not a problem, the ground service does not always match up to the service in the air. Ultimately it is the service in the air that counts, but the ground side lets down the good work that is done in the air. It is a bit like the train journey I had from St Pancras to Nottingham where the on train crew were very good and then it was all spoilt by the surley RPI at the gate when I asked to retain my ticket.

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I agree with some sentiment of ground handling. I think this is sometimes due to the agencies that run things in certain airports.

But all companies have the odd system that has the power to annoy, once again Im not sure why BA gets singled out for this. Why do we expect BA to be perfect? No airline is. No person is either come to think about it. But we make our judgments in the round.

I just don't know why so much forum space is filled with individual anecdotes of random service shortcomings. The idea of flying to DXB via Zurich just because of a poor phone call is bizarre to me. Sure - if its because there is a big preference for LX, or because its better value, or because the timings work better - why not? But surely things would have to get pretty bad to add 4 hours+ onto a journey.

Don't get me wrong. I think its good to point out short comings so things can be improved, and i haven't got rose tinted spectacles when it comes to BA. However - there is no real evidence that BA is going to hell in a handcart, or that cost-cutting is having huge impact. The shortcomings that people use of evidence of such things happened in the past, they happen in all large companies and they especially happen when you interact with fellow human beings.

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Monday will be an interesting day as I understand the results of the cabin crew strike ballot will be announced. Sitting as I am in Singapore events may be in front of me and any threat of action has been postponed. If not this thread will run and run with people who hold non-refundable tickets for flights that were cancelled etc etc and will BA refund without question,notwithstanding individual insurances, so we wait and see!!

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Gooner London

If you are referring to my post, two things to consider

1 - It is BA's tendency to cancel flights and drop me like a hot potato that persuades me to book Swiss

2 - The connection at ZRH adds about 1 hour, not 4 and the flight time will be perhaps 20 minutes longer due to two take off and landings.

No brainer, when the airline cancels 20% of your flights in a year.

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Expat,

Good points.

What I'd add about SWISS (to whom I'm now a massive convert) - I presume you're transiting ex-LHR? I use them ex-BHX and find that for many flights to Eastern Europe (a major destination for me), despite them having 3 flights a day between BHX and ZRH, I almost always have to overnight it at least one way in ZRH, which increases the cost.

ZRH is an excellent airport (even taking into account the bussing practices whilst they rebuild B-pier), the SWISS lounges are superb and the staff extremely helpful, and the on-board comfort and service is second to very few, even when using Helvetic on the BHX-ZRH route.

Coupled with the excellent Business Class fares, SWISS take a lot of beating.

Having said that, as an irregular BA user, I would add that on the occasions I've used BA (about 6 round-trips per annum), I've always found them fine. I've not used them for a few months so I can't comment on current staff morale, route cancellations, etc.

Regards, Simon

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I too have been extremely impressed with SWISS of late, both in European Business and longhaul First Class. Zurich is an excellent airport through which to transit too. I'm not sure that it's *so* good that I would chose SWISS and Zurich over a direct service from London, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out if the timings and fares were attractive.

As far as British Airways is concerned, I too have had a number of itineraries changed over recent months. In each case, I've had an email, a call and an offer to confirm in writing. When the written confirmation has arrived, there has been an accompanying sheet detailing the EU compensation rules for delays and cancellations.

These rules are the reason why BA employs the contact strategy that has been referred to above. EU airlines are legally obliged to make all reasonable efforts to inform a customer of a change to their itinerary. It's not good enough to leave a voicemail, nor is it to speak to someone other than the actual traveller, in the hope that the message makes it through.

It's for this reason that BA (and BD, and LH and AF et al) will leave a generic message if they can't get through immediately, and will request a call-back. Experience shows that, if fuller details of the exact nature of the change are left as a message, then fewer folks call back. This leaves the airline having to continuously re-call customers, probably at just-as-inconvenient times.

It's exactly the same in very many service industries, but the threat of being fined significantly undoubtedly provides airlines with an even greater incentive to prove unequivocally that they have done everything in their power to contact the passenger, and then also that they have done everything reasonable to confirm that it is indeed the affected passenger to whom they have notified the changes.

With British Airways in mind, though potentially a greater number of BT readers may have experienced BA itinerary changes (than on other airlines) by dint of their residency/employment in the UK and EU, BA is no worse than many other carriers in terms of the number of routes and flights affected, and very much better than many (particularly, obviously, those who have ceased flying completely in the current economic climate).

Certainly, if it was my job to define the contact strategy in such circumstances, then I'd almost certainly come up with the one they have - to ensure that the actual passenger is informed most reliably, and my exposure to legal action minimised.

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BA have just refurbished the lounge at Edinburgh -without toilets! Can you believe it. Passenger have to leave the lounge, walk round a huge pub and then go down a long corridor. It may not seem much in comparision with the strike - but what serious airline would remodel a lounge and ask their passengers to find a toilet a good distance away.

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RonaldoJ21 - the airline does not own the airport, it merely leases space from the airport owner.

If the airport is unable or unwilling to provide a given facility to the tenant airline, then the tenant is clearly unable to provide it to their customers. There are hundreds of lounges worldwide where the lavatorial facilities are outside the lounge.

They are quite serious lounges, in quite serious airports leased by quite serious airlines.

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About 18 months ago, I flew from LHR to Beijing in Club. On boarding the aircraft, there was clearly an issue; three of the cabin crew descended down the staris on the jetway to the tarmac and, once seated, I saw an amulance and fire engine headed towards the back of the plane. Shortly afterwards, the pilot explained that a baggage handler had somehow been trapped between the luggage conveyor and the aircraft and was quite badly injured; they were all trying to free him. An air ambulance then arrived. At that stage, the captain asked all passengers to walk to the front of the plane (a B777) to see if that would lift the tail slightly to assist in freeing the injured man. We all did, but it didn't , necessitatng the cutting of the aircraft hull and, by definition, the provision of an alternative aircaft for the flight. A spare plane was soon found, and we (plus the existing crew) boarded it and left for Beijing around two hours late. It was clear that the crew (particularly those who had tried to rescue the baggage handler) had been upset by this- the man was very badly injured. The service on the flight was, however, topnotch.

When I returned to the UK, I wrote to Willie Walsh asking him to congratulate the crew involved as I thought they had acted well beyond the call of duty. I received a call from the customer service team a few days later to ask what I wanted. I expressed some surprise, as my only request had been to thank the staff involved for doing such a good job in such trying circumstances. The caller said that he had assumed I had wanted compensation for a delayed flight and seemed genuinely bemused when I said I didn't. I asked if he ever received letters of praise from passengers and he said that mine was the first he had dealt with....

To this day I don't know whether my comments were passed on to the crew, or what happend to the bagge handler. It did strike me as a shame that BA customer service were genuinely nonplussed by my letter.

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Re. Edinburgh Lounge. The space is immense - in fact it is like a huge vast hall. A bit impersonal. And the far wall appears to ajoin the public toliets - so plumbing would not have been too difficult.

Today - as on many occasions, the only printer'copier was not working.

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I travelled BA to and from Dubai 12-18 Dec and could not believe the attitude and service by some of the staff. The purser was in fact the worst I have ever encountered. I normally travel every month with Emirates and have also been on Etihad and Qatar which are miles ahead of BA. Along with the staff, the aircraft (777) was very poor along with the 'high life' in flight system. It's sad not to help out the 'home' airline but never again thanks. Stick with the arab airlines for quality, service and certainly a better flight overall.

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continental club sounds like ba management speak..there obviously are problems within ba.read between the lines to get closer to the truth

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Stugrg1, did you complain to BA's Customer Services dept about the problematic staff? I trust you got this person's name and were able to forward it on to the CS Dept. I agree with you, best to stick to the Gulf carriers (apart from GF!) nowadays. Recently flew Birmingham-Dubai on EK and was most impressed by the Business Class attendants: chatty, engaging, helpful, and genuinely concerned about the kids and the eldery flying in J Class that afternoon.I would happily keep flying EK unless, of course, their service deteriorated.

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Superb, thoughtful service on my most recent two sectors.

CSD, Julie, was amiable and efficient, and the food on board (Apple and Celery Soup followed by Ham and Chicken Pie) was delicious.

Cabin Crew made particular effort with young children in the cabin, and service was swift and professional. Particularly enjoyed the banter between the cabin crew and the passengers; passengers rather well oiled having bonded in the Lounge over a few glass of JW Blue and crew could not have been more sparky or more attuned to ensuring we continued to enjoy our journey. No other airline, in my experience, would have delivered this.

High Life AVOD worked great, in all classes, with superb content from the BBC and some great movies; I watched Cry Freedom, which I hadn't seen in a while, and Dorian Gray both of which were excellent.

Top marks!

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Friday 18th was a rubbish day for travelling from LGW (and many other places), but the staff in the lounge at LGW were very good as flights were cancelled and delayed.

At the gate the captain made an announcement apologising for the delays and that we would board in a few minutes and giving reasons for delay, not what one would normally expect but good PR. Most of us had been delayed for six hours.

Service on board was quick and efficent, up to the mark.

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Bad management incurs bad customer service. As long as management refuses to address issues, the concern in question will lose clientele to better managed and focused carriers.

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"High Life AVOD worked great, in all classes"

How (and why) do you know this, VK?

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Aha! Good point Expat!

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I totally agree. I fly the London to New York route at least once a month in Club World and have seen a steady decline in overall quality. On my latest flight the cabin crew only asked gold-level flyers for their choice of meal and when others complained they recommended they 'call Willy Walsh'. I ordered a mushroom tart for a starter and it arrived basically uncooked, when I inquired if it was meant to be hot, the answer was 'yes', but because if the new crew changes they did not have enough galley help to cook both the starter and main course. I don't expect 5 star cuisine in business class, but uncooked food is a bit much.

I'm trying to remain loyal to BA, but it's getting harder with each trip.

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And for the avoidance of doubt, in answer to the curiously accusatory tone of the comments about the IFE I experienced on my most recent flights, BA (unlike several carriers) offers AVOD video on demand in all classes on all longhaul aircraft, and when the Cabin Service Director popped over to say hi I asked if there had been any problem with the IFE in flight; there hadn't.

Crews can be changeable, and especially during mid-Dec there were apparently incidents of inappropriate comments and somewhat militant behaviour encouraged by the Union on the part of some crewmembers in the run up to the incompetently managed Unite/BASSA strike threat.

If you experience service like this again, it is important for the sake of other passengers in future that you take the names of crew who act in this unacceptable fashion to ensure they are picked up on it:

www.britishairways.com/travel/custrelform/public/en_gb

Many airlines ask for food orders by elite status; this is standard practice on most American based carriers and BA tends to try and accommodate the requests its most loyal customers as you would expect would be the case in any industry.

It is absolutely unacceptable to be served a cold starter when it should have been heated; if that was the case you should have immediately summoned the CSD.

My last few longhaul sectors were second to none, with professional and friendly crews who still stand out from other airlines. In large part it is my regular experience of excellent BA crew which keeps me loyal to the airline.

www.newclubworld.com is still a solid offering.

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I concur with VintageKrug about advising airlines when staff provide shabby service and I am sure VK's posting the BA web link to do this is much appreciated. It is equally important to let airlines know when staff do a good job as this will encourage them and lift morale. CX send a nice response to customer comments and I would like to think the individual staff are informed of passenger comments about their performance ?

On a slightly different matter, the enviroment within the Lavatories on long haul flights - CX/SQ ensure their staff regularly tidy up and "refresh" the lavatories after use. I gather BA lavs are quite ghastly after 8 hours or more flying time ?

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It seems to me that the common thread amonsgt all these posts is that the approach of the individual in flight crew generally makes or breaks the flight. I've had wildly different experiences not just between carriers but also between crews on the same airline (and even on the same flight where there has been a crew change en route). My own experience is that BA is generally pretty good, as is Virgin and EK in premium cabins, Air France, KLM and Lufthansa slightly less so. But all have been dreadful at some point or other, when in each case I have drawn the issue to the attention of the CSD in flight and it has usually been resolved. Otherwise I take it up with the airline on my return. So I'm not sure that any one of the "majors" mentioned in these threads are signifcantly better or worse than anyone else- and even if they are the attitude of a single crew member on one sector can make all the difference...

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Hi everyone !!

It has no direct point to BA's service. But as my recent experience was with CX -- a Oneworld partner and nearest comparison for service--I want to share with you--how service oriented this one particular inflight manager named Stella was during one of my short HKG-TPE flight in C class this month. Our plane was delayed in TPE as this was arriving from ICN and continuing than to HKG. Some C pax left the lounge on time in order to be prompt at the gate. At this moment I saw our plane just docking at our gate. I was surprised and a bit angry, because there was no announcement about its delay. The C pax could have stayed longer in the lounge and relaxed, instead we waited all at the cramped gate. Some C pax already queued prior for boarding. I took a seat and waited for an announcement. At this time we saw pax deboarding our aircraft. At this moment we knew--our flight will be delayed as the plane has to be ready first for the flight. After a fashion I asked one of CX gate employees, why is not there any announcements of the delay and if it is better to go back to the lounge. This person told me--it is not necessary it will be a quick turnaround or similar. So I waited at the gate--it took all in all around 30 minutes( it is actually not that long--in US and Europe such delays are almost normal). When we board the aircraft --I was greeted by Stella and I just mentioned how odd und untypical CX not to inform their C pax of the delay in the lounge as we waited in the cramped gate. Stella--very professional--told me to write a complaint about the situation and informed the supervisor of the gate staffs that I am not happy of the delay and waiting at the gate. Stella did not tell me about informing the supervisor and I was surprised when this gentleman suddenly stood beside my seat and excused himself and for his colleagues for the lack of information and the waiting. I was perplexed as did not expect such quick response and in person !! It made me blushed a bit as my seat neighbour was wondering what happened to me that a supervisor of CX excused to me personally. I was really speechless and just thank him for his efforts in coming to me personally on board to explain the situation. After a while Stella came to my seat and told me why there was a delay---as the plane originated from ICN and it snowned in Seoul, so a the plane has to be deiced for safety reasons. Here I was perplexed again--as Stella told me this--I never expected such commitment and sincere interest in satisfying the guest and be informed of the cause.

So everyone-- I let you alone with this experience of mine. You now probably understand, why I wrote a thread regarding CX as truely a great BT Asia&Pacific airline of the year 2009. This is only one of the many situations and experiences I had in my latest trips with CX in Southeast Asia and Middle East. All situations were handled completely professional and with outmost satisfaction for the guest.

So let us go back to the question---where is BA's service comparing to this experience and where has BA's service gone from here?

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The CSD has introduced him or herself to me on every single BA longhaul flight I have taken this year, whether in First or www.newclubworld.com

Indeed on a recent delayed sector the captain himself popped down and chatted with F pax once we were in the cruise.

Standard procedure on BA for all elite (BA Silver/Gold) status passengers and all passengers flying First to have a some personal time from the CSD.

I don't see why this was such an exceptional occurrence on Cathay?

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Well lucky for you that BA sees you as an elite pax that the CSD came to you and introduce him/herself.

I am BA Exec Silver and flown several flights with BA in premium cabins this year---did not have that all too great introductions and experiences you are referring to. I never experienced such special feeling of being as a premium guest or elite flyer of BA Exec. So please do not generalize it to others who are or will be flying with BA or are BA Exec as well. We have our own experiences !!

Why are you irritated that I had such nice experiences with CX? Are we suddenly " persona non grata" for BA--when we do not write positively or comment their CSD nicely or flights in F and C with BA.? BA should be aware that there is always competition with other airlines--especially in its own alliance.

I will be reaching BA Exec Gold/ Oneworld Emerald next year-- so I will be flying with BA next year--I will definitely be aware of your comments regarding introductions and guest interactions of CSD or Captains in some cases on my future BA flights. And yes--I will be comparing all these experiences with my other experiences with CX, QF, JL and other airlines. And definitely will tell the CSD or F/A on BA flights when something is wrong--just to know how they handle the situations.

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You mentioned you had flown BA premium cabins, were these longhaul?

I speak regularly to my colleagues who are also Silver and Gold and I can assure you they all get some time with CSD when flying longhaul in premium cabins and several who still have to fly in the boot have also had the CSD introduce themselves.

Standard procedure.

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Yes VK--these are also longhauls to Asia, Australia and Middle East. I had till today not that special introductions--you are referring to ! I saw it often to other pax sitting next to me. But seriously I do not need to fight for an introduction. If the CSD or F/As did not do the efforts--that is okay for me--but a pretty bad impression !

Important for me in longhauls-- great bed, great food, great wine and that special touches of being regarded as a frequent guest who is always welcomed and feeled appreciated flying with them again and again. Is that surreal expectations? Or is that exaggerating ?

And you know what is really dreadful--that when you experience such great service attitude on other Alliance partners like CX and JL--and you did not have that situations in your own airline !! I learned in all those years to remember the names of the CSD or flight managers or F/As on my flights who are/were great or have done such exceptional service--I always talked with them directly during the flight--how great it was and aprreciated their efforts etc.. And believe me ---not a name on BA flights this year is still on my mind. ! That is a huge disappointment !!

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Well, as ever Hess your occasional BA experiences and my more frequent weekly experiences as a BA passenger are poles apart.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

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Oui, VK--c'est ca. Beaucoup de choses change, mais tu restes le même ! Je ne comprendrais jamais ton point de vue exagéré sur BA. Il est simple trop d'un seul côté !

I think it is good that not all BA Exec members are the same opinions and everyone has its own experience--otherwise BA will not know--how to improve itself. When they always hear--how good they are and often biased reactions. It is the challenge and their aim to give everyone on board the feeling of being special and appreciated guest who are happy to fly with BA again and again. And not only certain groups of people who are probably more nearer to BA PR departement or Waterside in general--so they experience such special amenities.

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I, unlike some others (not you I might add), only ever post my factual experiences, never "exaggerations". I present my first hand view of BA, which counteracts the often ill informed and frankly inaccurate posts made by others.

I welcome your different insight, but just as you feel my posts are apparently onesided, so it does seem to me that many other posts on here rather read one-sided against BA, and in many cases have been made simply to cause turbulence, and more recently anserine turbulence at that, rather than to pursue a constructive debate.

The suggestion, which has been repeated in several of your posts recently, that I am in any way connected with BA or Waterside is tiresome and bordering on the defamatory.

Please desist.

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Hello everyone,

VK, I do not believe that Hess is suggesting that you are connected to BA or Waterside rather that you seem to have a very good or closer relationship with BA than many other posters.

I accept you at your word, totally, that you have no formal connection with BA, but given some of your own previous posts, you can hardly be surprised that some posters might believe that you do or did have some kind of connection in the past. i must confess that i had wondered myself for a while but no longer.

as for Hess's remarks bordering on being defamatory, that i am not too sure about!

Safe travels and a happy new year to everyone.

Jonathan

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My major issue VK, is that unlike other airlines, BA makes a point of setting themselves apart from the competition ... particularly on service. Justifying mediocrity by comparing service with other carriers (which you clearly feel to be inferior) only underscores my point. When you set the bar high, you need to deliver. While I do not fly BA weekly, my monthly transatlantic trips have become increasingly more pedestrian and indistinguishable from other airlines.

Secondly, my comments are not an attack on the cabin crew(s), but rather a general observation about negative changes at BA that are impacting the flying experience from check-in to deplaning - no doubt, the greatest culpability resides with management. I am the MD of a large HR services firm - my clients would hardly accept 'someone having a bad day' as an excuse for individual poor service or as a reason for continuing inconsistent service quality. At a base level, BA is selling a product that they appear (from the many comments on this stream) to have lost the ability to produce consistently.

Finally, I'm still flying BA, because I want to contribute to it's success - not its failure. I routinely share my flight experiences with BA customer service and also make a point of recognising exceptional flight staff. My hope, so far unfulfilled, is that BA will listen and recalibrate.

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Typical VK !!

You have started on questioning my own experiences with CX and on the otherside the ones with BA. I am just answering you curiosities over my opinions and now that you finally realize that you can't come with your pro BA paroles--suddenly you feel offended !!

Even trying in French, never expected that I could understand what you are saying ! We know your efforts to distance yourself to BA--but please how come--that everytime one of us here argue with you--you--yourself--always give the impression--that you can't leave it out and always give the feeling to be too fond or just too " Waterside" influenced in your sentences and impressions.

You know what--just leave all this feeling of being haunted by others because of your attitude to BA. Perhaps the others will understand you more or better, without this pathetic impression of "misunderstood by the others" regarding BA.

And yes please--you should desist to tell us--other users here--not to talk against BA . As long as I pay my own tickets with BA--I will talk and give my comments as they are. As I have told before--your other comments and experiences in other fields are good and is appreciated--but when it comes to BA---everything has a touch of being biased

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I think it is absolutely vital, as you suggest, for people to inform BA when service slips below the expected high standard.

My 20 or so longhaul and innumerable short/midhaul sectors during 2009 were good to excellent, apart from two notable exceptions, first when I was imprisoned in a A320 for three hours during February's snow (basically BAA's fault for not having enough de-icers) and second a lazy Purser on a CE flight who failed to perform the cabin service adequately.

In both cases I did, however, complain using the normal channel of the weblink set out above, and was personally telephoned by a BA rep within two days (in both cases) who apologised, explained the reason for the delay, and offered unprompted, financial and mileage compensation for each complaint respectively.

These are my factual experiences of the customer service I receive from BA. And when it's good, it's good, and when it falls short, the recovery is more than satisfactory.

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Believe me VK ! One think is sure about your very pro BA impressions which give me the desire to look exactly of those things you have said to be "standard service" on BA flights in C and F cabins. I will be scrutinising my flights and the level of service attentiveness, food&beverage, appreciation to be an elite flyer of BA Exec. in my flights in 2010--whether it is longhaul or shorthaul.

SUBSEQUENT POSTS DELETED

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Chaps, please can you stop? It's pretty clear that neither will persuade the other and it's getting a bit..well..dull...

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Hess, don't you know, not many of us take VK seriously. He has diluted his effectiveness and value as a poster with his sycophantic praise of BA and, to some extent, VS. Love your French accent, by the way! :o)

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Thanks Wildgoose : 0 ) !!

I know that a lot of the readers here--do not write or seldomly contribute--but as you have stated a lot of us now how VK is ! Today he just finally showed us --how he really is !!

I actually do not use French in my daily routine--please do not expect from me to write oftenly in French--VK just challenge it today and it helps !!

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Alors, quelle tragedie! :o(

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Oh.. ! the administrator is omnipresent today ! He has censored and erased some comments of me and VK ! Why actually ? Let the other users and readers know how VK argues and write over others here! You should not be doing that and helping VK in a way !!

I have got the feeling that VK has a strong support in BT--that he can influenced which comments are kept online and which are not---especially if it shows VK in a bad picture and threatens to exposed his real attitude. I just hoped--the others have read those deleted post--in order not to be disillusioned in the future.

Really bad BT-- you just show a one-sided picture here !! It shows that you are supporting VK and afraid that the others see him differently. What is going on here !!

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Hello Everyone again today,

Hess, i did not know that some of the comments of you and VK have been censored by the administrator in this thread, however in previous threads we have asked the administrator to do just that if some comments were thought to be across a line and therefore unacceptable he was right to intervene.

I have to trust that this is/was the case and the comments were therefore removed. I do not say this to upset or offend you but to remind you and everyone else that all the administrator is doing is what we asked him to do and we should support him for doing it.

safe travels,

Jonathan

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WIldgoose - dont encourage Hess. He allows himself to be wound up far too easily. As the other guy said this is dead dull. I get an email about this post being updated 'cause of an earlier post if mine further up. Consequently my inbox is swamped. Is there any interesting content? No.

I thought your CX example was in fact good - showing care and attention to take responsibility for a service failure, face to face as it happens, Far too many airlines shrug and blame the system, the airport whatever - basically "Our hands our tied at this time" (Ie I cant bring myself to give a toss).

VK does seem to have a charmed experience with BA. I am a big BA fan, but i've found complaint resolution less consistent, and as a Gold card holder for many years, the CSD 'intro' is very varied. I think now they are busy with service this will become less common. Personally i find it all a bit superfluous 'Hello, im XXX, if there is anything you need in the flight please don't hesitate to ask... are you having a nice flight blah blah blah" - its not quite the same as standing up and taking active responsibility for service problems as per the CX example.

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Hi Jonathan !!

I just wrote my opinions and during this " fencing" with VK, he just suddenly showed a very sad and insulting attitude towards me. Making fun of me and comments. And feeling threatened by me ? A lot of those user or readers have seen what VK and I have written. So there is no threat on my side---but if VK feels like that--than it is his problem--as this shows that if he realizes that he can't stand up the preassure of being questioned over his attitude and later that he actually busted himself for being like that as he is. He probably wrote the administrator an email and asked to censored those comments which shows VK in a bad picture which is only the picture he showed today.

I am just a bit surprised that BT is being onesided here--without any warnings at all. Normally BT warns the users first--to alternate their comments. Now BT just erased them---actually favouring VK here.

I just hope that the others are just aware of what is happening here. BT shouldn't be so obviously supported to one user or contributor--otherwise I might assume that this special contributor is a part of BT or at least closed connected to the administrator.

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Gooner, I think most posters would appreciate the views of someone like yourself: a frequent flyer who is neither a die-hard fan of BA nor vehemently against them; someone who can provide a balanced view/opinion. With regard to the BT-VK nexus, I DO think Hess might be on to something here. And, no, I'm not encouraging him, I'm merely going by the amount that VK seems to be getting away with when it comes to criticising other posters. He can't seriously offend a poster and then expect that poster to stay reticent or expect another poster not to rise up in defence of the maligned poster? The fact is, some people do reach for the metaphorical sick bag everytime VK pontificates about the joys of certain airlines.

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I endorse the comments of fellow Posters regarding Vintagekrug's demeanour. VK's posts give the impression of extreme partiality towards BA and reflects poorly on the objectivity we expect from Posters. BT is a respected publication and forum. Can VK kindly respect the forum and its users ? I will not be responding any further to VK as it only serves to encourage further abuse of this forum. With best wishes to all and safe landings !

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Hess, we deleted posts by both of you, and have no interest in siding with one or the other.

People come onto the forum to chat about matters of interest to them, and when things get personal, it isn't interesting.

I get an alert everytime someone posts on the forum, so I can see when things get heated - the inbox fills up very quickly.

In the past few months many posters have contacted us by email and told us to try and keep things civil. That's all we are trying to do.

One idea for the new year is that everyone has a profile page on here which might list any forum threads they have started, their last 10 threads, their last 10 comments on stories, and also list the reviews they have made on www.seatplans.com (you could opt not to show any of this). We could then also allow other profile users to vote on how useful the comments and forum threads have been (a sort of ebay thing).

Anyway, we're just kicking the idea around. I'd be interested to know what you think, either on the forum, or by email.

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Goonerlondon and Wildgoose--both of you are right !! Definitely right Wildgoose !

I should not have let VK argue me in such low level of context. I think that is the only way he can when being questioned and feeling that he is losing grounds. Now I am aware of it and definitely the others as well !!

Let us go back to the topic. That is exactly what I have experienced Goonerlondon--during my fights with CX--it was not only a nice introduction but the whole attentive service stretches the whole flight. As I have said before--CX F/As were just present everytime I wanted something and they were fulfilled. Their attentiveness is not forced, but it was really friendly and hospitable --taking time ( how full the cabin was) to have a small talk. Even they know am BA Exec elite--they gave me the feeling as one of their Marco Polo elite and really appreciated . It just felt great flying with them----these aspects are what I am missing in my BA flights this year. I just hope to see more improvements in 2010.

Is it the pax's fault, if he/she encounters better service in CX and less with BA? Definitely no---but those BA responsibles reading our comments here--should be aware how to improve their level of service ( how hard it can because of the strikes and struggle for a better contract ). Not all premium pax just forget such bad impressions--only those really loyal to an airline or their frequent flyer club can really oversee such mishaps.

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HI BT Administrator !!

It is your right to censor our comments as you have said--there were personal attacks and insults to users in the past. But it will be nice to warn those users involved. As like what happened between VK and me today. We are just arguing normally--then it started to get nasty on VK's side--he falls back in his old attitude in insulting others in his way by talking metaphorically or today in French. The main point is -- those persons who start insulting others--should be censored by you publicly in the forum--otherwise these users will feel no preassure to change their attitude and feel free to behave badly to others. VK for example has contributed a lot of good things--but what gives him the right or authority in BT forum to insult others or misbehaved when feeling being questioned over his attitude. We--the others--try to behave and think first before we could insult anyone. Why is it hard for some to censor themselves before writing such insulting comments !

It would be nice--if BT could be more attentive in censoring those users publicly--so they will be warned to behave in the future as eveyone will be seeing this and not hidden in a private email communication or more worst--just ignored it

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Hi Site Administrator,

love the ebay style idea. If you were to implement such an idea it would hopefully make contributors behave themselves.

It might be an idea to make it so that if you do not have a profile page then you are unable to post, merely read what others are saying. I do not believe that any of those posters who want to contribute sensible to this forum would object to having a profile page. It would also enable us to seek the advice of posters based on what we know to be there areas of expertise.

Perhaps we could have this on the agenda for discussion at the BT get together on the 14th!!

the idea certainly gets a big thumbs up from me!

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Its about extremes isn't it. The problem though is not one as one sided as you suggest. As i said in my post earlier in this thread, people seem to either demand the world from their airline, or start to pretend their behaviour or custom will change on the basis of a single customer service failure. Because of the UK bias of this publication, BA seems to attract more of this.

Like VK, this irritates me too. However, I cant pretend BA is perfect to counteract this, i just wish there was a sense of perspective about BA. The whole presumption of this thread is preposterous and plays as much to those who wish to bring out their old and tired prejudices as it does to others who will want to defend.

Its pleasing that some of the posts (now buried in the personal brikbats) relate to positive BA service experiences, but the topic is leading and suggest 'fact' that service has indeed gone somewhere. My feeling, as someone who uses BA weekly, is that the service hasn't gone anywhere - its as fallible as its always been. Better than most airlines, not as good as some of the niche carriers.

Certainly some 'frills' have gone - but none that I have missed.I'd rather have a healthy London based airline serving 300 odd destinations than a bankrupt one which failed because they refused to scrap sandwiches that no one really wanted to eat. The fact is that BA has its own issues to deal with that those niche carriers don't.

Sitting in a Club World or 1st seat is a very, very pleasant place to be. My flight (upgraded at gate) in 1st to IAD last week was one of the best BA experiences to date. Despite the operational issues of snow that caused delays.

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Crazy idea but maybe CX should look at buying BA outright and subsequently raising standards across the airline? Any idea how much BA would cost? Large chunks of the UK industrial and services sectors will eventually come to be owned by China, Qatar, and India so we might as well benefit from this. We handed back HK, now let us hand over BA? Talk about the Empire striking back, eh!

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Sorry - did I miss something? A great CX service story neither makes them a better airline, or better equipped for running an airline the scale of BA with the issues BA face.

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Where should we start when we compare airlines and their services? Should we stick with the size of the company or fleet or compare only regionally?

The point I am stating here is-- why is it so hard for BA to have these great and consistent service experience which I have encountered with CX.? Both are Oneworld partners-is not it the aim to have a similar great flying experience? I am still a BA fan and like to be a BA Exec elite. But does that should make me satisfied and oversee standard service comparing to a great service experience. Should I just be happy flying with BA --whatever kind of service I encountered on board? Definitely no! -- I know and a lot of us here know--BA is able to be superior and not only good ! So why fall back in those substandard attitudes.

So whatever size and circumstances are there to be faced--BA's prime aim is to give the pax that great feeling why they choose to fly with them and not with a competitor--right ?

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Comparisons are good of course - its the basis of choice. Its the conclusions some people draw from the comparison that, in this thread at least, seems weird.

I can equally run a coach and horses through CX: - Uncomfortable long haul business class - Inability to recover from a delay causing knock on problems - Indifference of ground staff to rebooking me - a grumpy cabin attendant

However, i don't think it crossed my mind to think - BA could teach these people a thing or too (I stress these things didn't happen on one booking incidentally!) - i just chalked it up to another experience. I'm very find of CX too - im just making the point

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Goonerlondon-- I am really sorry that you had bad experiences with CX. I sincerly have not got that bad experiences--well, if you take that 30 min. late departure from TPE from my recent CX flights.

I am might be too CX at the moment--why? Because I had great Southeast Asian and Middle East flights--which were almost faultless ! I just wished I had them as well with my BA flights this year. For example the introduction of CSD or Pursers on BA flights--I did not have it--probably bad luck for me that those F/As just did not have the feeling to introduce themselves to me--and I experienced the other way with CX. This was really a splendid service attitude--very hard to fault at all. I do not know how to tell without sounding too CX fanatic---just a great feeling to be pampered and appreciated sitting there and the service just felt normal and not forced.

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I would like to add that a flight can be just as pleasant without any need for the CSD to introduce herself/himself. I recently flew EK between BHX and Dubai in Business Class and, although the CSDs did not formally intorduce themselves, they were, nevertheless, informally chatty and engaging and made a world of difference. As far as EK goes, it isn't unusual for the CSD to introduce herself/himself to SIlver and Gold Skywards passengers flying in J and F class. It happened to my brother, who is a Silver card holder. On KLM, many years ago, I was flying between AMS and SFO in Y class and the CSD came and introduced himself to me (I was pretty high up the Flying Dutchman chain back in the late 90s!) and that was a nice touch.

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I agree that there is no real need for the CSD to introduce themselves, as pleasant as it may be. What would be better is for either the CSD or a senior FA to come around at the end of the flight to ask if everything was okay and if the passenger had enjoyed the flight

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Just the facts on the last day of the year.

In 2009, BA........

Cancelled 2 out of the 10 flights I booked with the company.

Refused hotac in both cases, although I was on a C ticket.

Withdrew the service from Malta (my home) to London.

Changed the S/H seating from 2+3 to 3+3, then performed a volte face.

Changed the meals on L/H, to the passenger's disadvantage.

Had yet another serious industrial dispute that threatened travel and is still ongoing.

I think the facts speak for themselves, this basket case airline is Best Avoided.

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Boy you sure have stirred the hornet's nest Expat! I guess we will now just have to sit back and read the deluge of rabid, pro-BA exhortations that pour out from various aggrieved quarters!

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Interestingly I have just totaled up my flights for the year and traveled 40 journeys on BA, only two were cancelled, one as a result of the snow at LGW, most went on time or within 20 minutes. Perhaps I have been lucky with the journeys I have done.

Expat you are wrong about Club Europe going 3+3, it never did ,it went 2 + 2 without changing the size of the seat, but that was changed as a result of customer complaints. You may call it a U turn or whatever, I call it listening to customers and acting on it.

Happy New Year to all

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Expat - not still going on about your cancelled flights?

Notwithstanding the annoyance of 2 cancellations - this and the other points you refer to don't make a 'basket case airline' - as you well know! But its good to stir things up again with utter nonsense.

Turning to one point you raise that is a bit new (well done you), Im sorry for you that BA don't fly to Malta, global commercial hub of the Med, any more. (But given your comments, no great loss to you). However, the days of keeping routes for vanity are over. If a route doesn't make money why fly it? Personally, I'm sad PMI was scrapped. But I see it has been added to LCY instead now :-)

Also worth reminding of the much longer list of BA launches / innovations posted towards the top of this thread, Perhaps it puts your smaller points in perspective? As you say... just the facts!

Happy (tongue in cheek) new year!

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Expat is well within his rights to feel aggrieved about the cancellations. We're looking at what appears to be an issue of proportionality (and tolerance?); while two cancellations (and other issues) may have been enough to dissuade Expat from flying BA, other posters would appear to have a higher threshold when it comes to tolerating cancellations and route closures. Ok, so Malta isn't exactly a hot-spot but it was very much part of the Empire.If there was ever any indication that Britannia was, far from ruling the waves, actually sinking then it is the "fact" that BA is slowly pulling back from the "rocky outposts"...Kuala Lumpur, Malta...the list goes on. I bet Walsh lies in bed sleepless and anxious for those landing rights in Shanghai and Beijing eh!

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N Tarrant

Apologies, I meant to write 3+3 configuration, not suggesting that BA sold 3+3. The seat width did change though, I experienced it on several flights on 737s and it was unpleasant - I even seem to remember that Vintage Krug posted an agreement about this.

However, IMHO, a business that listens to it's customer base should not get into a position where it has to retreat, especially a differentiated business.

Gooner London

Hard to do a review of 2009 without mentioning the cancelations.

However, if you dismiss my issues, then you cannot dismiss as a minor matter a 12 day strike that was prevented only by a court injunction over the inclusion of 800 votes that would not have altered the ballot result and which will likely lead to a re-ballot in 2010.

Neither should we forget the pension fund black hole.

Wildgoose

It is not just proportionality (although no other airline cancelled a flight on me in 2009, out of 90 or so), but the knock on impact on my business.

One of the cancellations cost me a client, who has not invited me to do any more work for them since I arrived 3 hours late for the meeting I was to facilitate, due to BA cancelling my flight and being unable to secure a seat on another airline, even though I arrived at the airport at -4 hours for a 7pm flight.

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Sorry Expat, I meant with changing the seat size, not without. But even so, they did listen to customers and put it back with a plus that the E seat is not occupied when it was before.

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Is the answer to BAs perceived management problems a new management team with a record of success and customer satisfaction. Sir Rod Eddington was CEO of Cathay prior to a successful stint running BA . Cathay is well guided by the present CEO Tony Tyler and perhaps its time for another customer friendly recruit from the successful British Asian based carrier

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BA should look to head hunt Tony Tyler to guide BA out of its numerous challenges......

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There are very many people in the industry who consider it to be Sir Rod's failure to address the union issue that has exacerbated the current situation at BA.

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CC - thank you. I was unaware of that view. CX has a history of tackling union issues seemingly rather well.

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I have just arrived in YVR having flown in 8 days in J, QF Mel/Lhr, BA Lhr/Abv, BA Los/Lhr/Yvr and have not finished my trip yet. The service on all of the BA flights was first class the crew were friendly and professional the cabin service was excellent. All of the flights have been full with the exception of Lhr/Abv, on this sector I fell a sleep missed the meal but on waking up the flight attendant asked if I was hungry and quickly put a continental breakfast together for me, you will not get this service on EK,SQ,CX! T5 worked well, my only gripe is the human barrier on trying to enter the FIRST lounge they coluld be a little friendlier. All up though good service all around.

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Term 3. BA First lounge Fri 19th Feb 06.00.

I was ''welcomed'' at the First reception desk by a young lady who barely looked up from reading her Daily Mail. I felt I should apologise to her for interrupting. 30 minutes later she was still reading her paper, hunched over the desk. As I left there was no recognition whatsoever.

Then, from behind me, I heard her call across to her colleagues that ''I am going for my break''!! She had obviously been working so hard........

Exactly......Where has BAs service gone....

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Term 3. BA First lounge Fri 19th Feb 06.00.

I was ''welcomed'' at the First reception desk by a young lady who barely looked up from reading her Daily Mail. I felt I should apologise to her for interrupting. 30 minutes later she was still reading her paper, hunched over the desk. As I left there was no recognition whatsoever.

Then, from behind me, I heard her call across to her colleagues that ''I am going for my break''!! She had obviously been working so hard........

Exactly......Where has BAs service gone....

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What else do you expect of Daily Mail readers?:o)

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Try being a QF pax and you don't even get spoken too! BA have real problems with their staff who man the FIRST lounges both T5 and T3, see my earlier report.

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What so many of the comments really address or should I say question is BA's recruitment stratgey for all direct customer facing staff and then the supervision there of. Are the recent comments above one off's or further proof of a systematic failure of management to root out those who drag the rest of BA down? The hard working majority then start to question why they should bother i.e. a downward spiral.

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And so the seeds of decay are engendered.

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If I check-in at home, or at the terminal machine, the first BA person I meet is the lemon-sucker on the First lounge desk....great first impression!

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Ha ha! Are the lemons 'Fair Trade', do you think?

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Wildgoose....''fair trade''? Not at the fares that BA charge!!

In the LGW First lounge at the moment....what a lovely surprise...BA staff that smile and chat...they make you feel welcome, and that they appreciate my business. BA should send the T3/T5 staff over here to find out how to do the job properly, and with enthusiasm. Well done BA LGW....long may it survive (but I doubt it)

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Quite agree with Austline, the woman manning the BA T3 first lounge was rude and indifferent to her passengers, in total contrast to the Cathay first lounge, where I was greeted with a smile and a 'welcome' and was served by some amazing staff in the restaurant area.

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From my side, I've always found BA staff to be friendly and overly helpful. However, what has annoyed me is that BA is slowly downgrading their inflight offering without informing customers.

First it started with the absence of their 'nibbles' with the drinks service and then I found out (because I was unable to get any food) that their 'raid the larder' service - where you can go to the galley during the flight and choose a selctions of snacks to eat - is no longer available on flights under 10 hours.

What annoys me (as a very frequent flyer with BA) is that they don't have the decency to tell me (and other travellers) about these changes. Whilst I disagree with them, there's little I can do to change their approach; but if I know about these changes, i can at least plan for my flight better.

Do us a favour BA and please have the decency to let us know about these sorts of changes

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Sunshine: Good point.

But this is not only about BA. The entire airline industry is into this. It used to be that one had not to worry about food for a flight, but now... You don't know anymore, whether you will get sufficient to eat.

I wish there was a heads up on this. All airlines. I know, this is BA topic, but...

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As far as I am aware Raid the Larder is a Club World offering and as far as my most recent BA longhaul flight under ten hours (two weeks ago) was concerned, it was very much in existence.

The "snackbox" offering of chocs and crisps designed to give the lower classes early onset diabetes in the World Traveller cabin has been discontinued. One could hardly survive on that artery clogging smorgasbord for sustenance.

Most economy food is pretty grim; though it's a while since I flew in the boot, I recall it was not so bad if you stuck to pasta which is tough to get wrong, and is immeasurably enhanced with the addition of ALL the salt and pepper you can lay your hands on.

But if I had to fly economy (and I wouldn't mind that much on a day flight) then I would deffo get myself a Plane Food picnic pre-flight. Sampled one on a late evening flight to MAN and thought it was delish:

www.gordonramsay.com/planefood/menus/picnics/

Drinks of orange apple juice and water are still offered on a tray for you to help yourself, along with frequent passes through the cabin with the same drinks to keep you hydrated.

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As a number of people have said, the erosion of services (as opposed to service) is something that is taking place across the industry - probably inevitable in the present financial climate. What is totally unnecessary is a downgrading of service, for which there are no obvious financial benefits.

As someone who regularly travels both business and economy class across a range of carriers, my food advice if you are pushed to the back of the bus is to order an Asian vegetarian meal. This is normally a vegetable curry with steamed rice, something that keeps very well and is tasty and filling. Pasta is generally OK too but can get burnt and hard if over-heated (which is true of most of us, come to think of it!!). Also, take aboard a range of snacks in order to avoid mid-flight stodge in economy - pot noodles are my pet hate because of the smell. Fruit is great, especially good apples because they travel well but don't forget to clear any remaining items from your bag before landing in Oz or NZ (have been caiught out there before, too).

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I've got to disagree with VintageKrug's description of economy class BA food. My recent experience on BA economy food - LHR-HKG in Sept and LHR-BOM/BOM-LHR(STN) in Dec/Jan - has on the whole been very positive.

I'm not saying that they were wholesale perfect, but they were very good. As someone who regularly has Indian food at home, on the LHR-BOM leg, I was thoroughly impressed by the chicken curry which was the option (as were my parents): we all commented that it was one of the best 'non-homemade' curries we'd had.

One thing that does jar is the apparent failings in the wholesale service. Yes, I've noticed the little 'snackbites' no longer being there (to be honest, the pretzels never bothered me, I got upset when they got rid of the far superior peanuts). What bothers me more is the issues with loading of meals: on a flight to India, there are a large number of passengers who request 'special meals', often due to religious reasons. The vast number of these meals are vegetarian meals. It shouldn't take a brain scientist to point out to BA that if a large number of passengers are requesting special meals/special vegetarian meals, then the rest of the passengers are not going to be the 'normal' long haul mix of vegetarian/non-vegetarian passengers; rather it'll be skewed with more non-vegetarian passengers. So whilst I was just got a non-veg meal, I would have been fairly furious if, like I other passengers, I was to find that only vegetarian options were left.

Also, why is it that on the route to India, BA in economy only offer Indian-style food? What happened to the days of an Indian-style meal and a western-style meal? If they can manage similar on the route to Hong Kong (one meal was ‘Chinese-style’, one was western), why not to Mumbai?

I should add that the last two BA meals I had (both Club Europe, LGW-BLQ-LGQ) were not as good in the area of main course, although the cheese & dessert were both good!

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Recently I have found the salads in Club Europe a bit hit and miss, last week there was a monzerella, which you would expect there to be a number of tomatoes, no, one sultry cherry one and the rest made up of peppers and a mountain of lettuce. The salmon salad the week before was disappointing too. Yet this week the salmon salad was super.

Still at least the breakfast is consistant!

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I also noticed a distinct improvement last week with the poached salmon, spinach salad and cous cous option.

Much better than the cheese/artichoke horror story the week before. Nasty.

In the evenings I prefer eating something that used to have a face, and cheese just doesn't cut it.

And the croissants are noticeably larger at breakfast as well.

I can feel our mutual excitement in anticipation of what this week's offering will be...!

Expect continued improvements; the Domestic (limited) catering provider changed last week (so no more birdseed, a more substantial snack mix will be offered) though I was rather a fan of the oversized cookie.

Further shorthaul culinary improvements will come online soon. Watch this space!

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They aren't known as 'Lounge Dragons' for nothing,

Isn't this generally the case for most airline lounges? I think they are so used to guarding the inner sanctum from chancers, they forget to welcome people properly.

I think there should be an interactive test to prove entry. 3 cryptic questions only a frequent traveller would know. Failure means exit through the rubbish chute.

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Yes premium service has deteriorated across several of the major airlines but hey what do you expect? Pay peanuts you'll get peanuts. Air fares will have to rise 30% at least for this to change.

Get used to it folks.

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Argh! This is the third time in as many months that I have had to comment to BA about their in flight service (well not the service, per say, but the service offering).

There's been rapid detrrioration in what BA offers its customers in flight. Now, all things considered, I have no real problem with them cutting back on their food/beverage offerings... but why don't they tell us?

I did a flight a few weeks ago to Barcelona (in economy) and was told there would be a snack as part of the flight. This I had - a small sandwich, a piece of fruit, a mini cocolate bar and a drink.

I have just flown to Milan with (according to my itinerary) the same meal service: a snack. The flight left at midday and arrived around 2 hours later, so I expected a similar sandwich/chocolate concotion.

What did I get? choice of tea or coffee and a cookie. Nothing more! This is diabolical. If you're going to cut back on your service offering why don't you tell us so we can be prepared for the flight.

This is so damn annoying

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Hardly "diabolical".

This change was widely publicised, and came in months ago, so your Barcelona experience must have been more than just a "few weeks ago".

The on board catering is clearly set out on the website:

"On all of our European flights [before 10am] you can enjoy breakfast with coffee and tea. Complimentary snacks and drinks are served throughout the rest of the day."

You get a choice of tea or coffee, a cookie (which is sizeable and actually rather nice, as I have sampled it on domestics) or snack mix (better than the birdseed previously offered since BA changed supplier recently) and in addition a full free bar service.

Loyal Executive Club members get plenty of food in the lounges pre-flight, if they are flying in eurotraveller/economy, and there are plenty of food outlets in T5 if you fancy something more substantial.

G&T anyone?

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Vintage,

I am a silver card holder (verging on Gold card status), so I do a significant amount of flying on BA. I have not received any communication directly from BA regarding this change.

I have not searched out any advertisement, press release or any other such communication from BA, so I am unsure how widely communicated this could have been.

I actually think diabolical is a suitable term for this. I have paid (well my company has) a decent price for a ticket of which there are expectations in terms of what I receive. BA has failed (again) to live up to those expectations.

As mentioned, I have no objection to them cutting back - but let us know what they're doing. I get enough emails from them telling me about check in options, remiders about a flight in 10 days time etc. why can't they tell me directly that my in flight service has changed (and the milan flight had no bar service - soft drinks only... oh and no diet coke available).

You may have enough time to ariive at a short haul flight to sit arould in the lounge and endulgue on their food (and when i can, I admit it's good)... but I don't always have that luxury, so I do, foolishly, tend to rely on some sustenance in flight.

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There was certainly a flurry of comments on the BT forum and I can't sure but I think that there was an email of some kind.

I think the problem is the term "snack" and what ones own definition of a snack is. According to wikipedia it is a food not meant to be eaten as a main meal of the day. (Sorry I don't have a copy of the Oxford English with me).

Where the BA website falls down is that it does not say that a snack is a cookie or bird seed and the free bar. Si I do sympathise with Sunshine.

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Diabolical means "the work of the devil".

This is hardly diabolical.

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The woes of BA are not that far ahead of QF and probably most other large airlines. Leadership and direction needs to come from senior management. Don't worry, we think as much of Alan Joyce (CEO, Qantas) as most here do of Willie Walsh.

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Not sure where Lindsay is coming from, but Alan Joyce is doing a superb job, just look at the recovering QF share price, overall profitabily of the group and customer satisfaction ratings. As a Platinum FF I wouldn't use anyone else for travel within Aust or for Intl. trips.

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My position is that I don't think bringing in a ex-LCC CEO to manage a full-service carrier was the right decision by the Board. By comparison, Virgin Blue's decision to snap up John Borgetti was a masterstroke.

The most current point of contention I have is his email to all QFF's on 9 April, regarding the Easter Disruptions. It took him (and Public Relations) 4 days after Easter to put out the email....IMHO, waaaay too long.

Recovery in the share price? That is a function of a lot of things (including a market rally , lower oil prices and their hedging strategies, increasing revenue and pax numbers, etc) some of which can be directly attributable to decisions Alan has made.

Overall profitability of the Group. Yes, granted QF are still one of the most profitable airlines in the world, but even QAN aren't paying a dividend at present. They need all the retained earnings.

Customer Satisfaction ratings....whilst I rate them highly domestically, I don't think the same can be said for Internationally. True, their PE cabin is highly rated (as it's a second generation PE, so better on qualitative means), however may I refer you to the latest Choice survey:

Qantas and its no-frills subsidiary Jetstar rate among the worst airlines to fly internationally, according the latest Choice consumer survey, while Singapore Airlines soared into top spot.... http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/worst-airline-australians-make-their-choice-20100331-rehy.html?rand=1270019265409

I say this as being a QFF member since 1989 (including 5.5 years as Plat and the rest as being Gold), and being a Moderator on an Australian-based FF website. Yes, I am a loyal QF flyer (as most of my flying is now within Australia) and I stilll haven't flown Virgin Blue (must to Brett Godfrey's chagrin). However I would certainly look to other oneworld carriers to my international flights (CX in particular, or AA).

Anyway, I'm sorry to have dragged this thread off-topic, it wasn't my intention, so I apologise. Back to normal programming about BA's distinct lack of service :-)

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Have travelled on BA ANU J out Y back and the service was a shocker. Outbound flight was busy but with spare seats - someone had been sick on the previous flight near my seat. Once realising I asked if I could move as the smell really was over-powering. The steward looked at me as if I was crazy and said I would need to wait until after departure. Managed to move myself once airbourne (no assistance) but of course my companion and I were split up. Inbound they had run out of choice of meal when they came to me. I asked for the tray anyway but could they pass my meal to my companion - again they looked at me as if I was a total inconvenience. No drink offered and had to struggle to the galley for a can of coke. I appreciate that operational/technical problems and shortages are not the crews responsibility but their attitude is - a smile and being pleasant costs nothing - I expect that when I buy my morning paper and I certainly expect that during a flight. I understand that they are under pressure and are fed up - but join the club. If you dont want to do a service job then get out of the service industry! To be fair to BA I have also experienced service/cleanliness on VS that was massively below acceptable standards.

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Am afraid BA has just lost any loyalty I ever had - as someone with over 1 million BA Miles (ie I had travelled extensively with them over the many years) - I enquired as to whether I could defer my 2 for 1 Amex coupon because of all the uncertainty of their flights and schedule and got a polite - get stuffed - this is totally unacceptable or am I missing something here - Most disgruntled ex BA passenger! see below -

"I do understand there has been some uncertainty around our flight schedules and this may have prevented you from being able to book your first choice of flights, but I'm afraid we are unable to extend your Companion Voucher. In fact, it is one of the conditions of your voucher that it cannot be extended. I know this is not the answer you were hoping for and I am sorry to disappoint you. We fly to over 125 destinations around the world, so there is a wide range of options to consider when you decide where and when to travel. I do hope you'll soon be able to find one that's right for you. Thank you again for getting in touch and giving me the opportunity to respond to your concerns.

Regards Carl Skelton-Baker Executive Club Customer Services"

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I suppose it would have been a nice gesture to waive the rules, but they have been pretty inflexible on this for a number of years now. I don't think the system even permits it.

From another perspective, you have had at least one year (possibly two) within which to take your outbound flight. And you could still use it perhaps for a shorter break. If everyone who requested had their voucher extended, reward flights would become considerably more difficult to come by.

Well, they are now all valid for two years so you've a pretty large window within which to use them.

And you only need spend £10k for another one; I wouldn't imagine that is too difficult, you might even have another 2for1 voucher available in a few months.

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For your information - It was one of the last one year vouchers and I have been ill on and off for most of the past four years as I explained to your customer relations in a polite way!!! So my ability to travel is restricted.

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Not my customer relations. Nothing to do with me.

I am sorry to hear you have been unwell; but really this is a case of caveat emptor.

You were (presumably) aware of the T&Cs of the voucher; without wishing to be rude it isn't any responsibility of any airline whether you are unable to travel or not.

Probably best to put this one down to experience and earn another voucher and ensure you can use it within the newly extended validity period.

Though if you have over a million miles, why not just forget the voucher and redeem two tickets?

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Since I have had my Amex card (albeit Blue) which is about seven years I have had a voucher four times and only ever used two.

My wife and I had booked with an Amex voucher to travel to SFO next week, but due to her impending operation we had to cancel, so that is three that have gone unused. The good thing is that if you do cancel you get your miles back and the voucher and your taxes. Just an admin fee of £30.00 each. That I think is very fair.

I think that it is unfair to expect BA or Amex to extend vouchers for whatever reasons when it is clear that they can not be extended. Why do people have to ask for the rules to be broken and then get upset when they don't get what they want.

In the vein of the old saying about credit, don't ask for Amex vouchers to be extended as a refusal often offends!

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Yes, i agree. No matter what the crew must find ways to satisfy the customer since there are various aircraft that offers great service. The management should make necessary action for this kind of sentiment.

This week, I am lucky i have found a site that offers indispensable information!

http://www.screwtheairlines.com/?screwair6

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Re: "Well, they are now all valid for two years so you've a pretty large window within which to use them."

Unfortunately, that is not true for all BA AMEX card holders. If you have the top-tier BA AMEX card then the vouchers do last two years. But for the two lower tiers (the middle tier is no longer available to new customers, but still available to existing card holders) the one year rule still applies. There was a mistake made several months ago where some statements stated two years. A follow up letter pointed out it was a mistake and an apology was given.

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As a gold member with Emirates and a silver member with star alliance I have started flying with BA and in a very quick period achieved the silver status. I only fly premium economy as my company wont pay any more ( miserable so and so's). I have to say that personally i think the service from Emirates is superior to BA but only because of the friendliness of the staff. In all other departments i think they are on par. My main issue with BA staff is that they do not interact that much with the passengers and dont seem to smile or even look that happy ( Not everyone of course), I had a similar issue when using Virgin but they were terrible out of Manchester going to Orlando and will not use them again. Due to now covering USA as well as Middle east and Far east I will support BA unless they start getting silly. I want to try and use one airline to get to most places i need to visit as it gets crazy trying to fullfil all FF programs. On the whole I would give them 7-8 out 10 where as Emirates from my own expiriance 9 out of 10

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I would agree with your comments re Virgin. I used to travel from Gatwick to Orlando with them every other month but gave up last year. The Orlando route is hated by most (not all) cabin crew becasue it is full of the bucket and spade brigade - and very excited kids. Virgin and BA can virtually charge what they want for this route, even in and toward the end of the recession, you cant get an economy seat for less than £650. Business class there are still deals to be found. I changed from Virgin last year - and now only use BA - you are right about the smiling faces or rather lack of them. However, I am lucky as i just put the seat back and go to sleep!

BA seem to lose track of the fact that its the cabin crew that give the best impression of the airline. A smiling crew, would really enhance the image of BA more than the date on the champers!

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jasonr01 - u say you only fly premium economy, but prefer EK over BA. However EK does not have a premium economy product. BA economy seat is miles better than EK econ ( at least on 777 ), as EK ram another seat on there 777's, as opposed to most other airlines. Now if you get on the A380 thats another matter.

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Hi Craig, Yes you are correct Ek are only economy however most of what i have travelled on have been 2 4 2 configuration plus now working for new company hence the premium economy so the only difference I have found is the spacing between the seats. I always used to book my seats in advance so i always had the back of a cabin on either side of the plane so not really that cramped but agree BA do have more leg room in premium economy. I feel rightly or wrongly that in premium economy on BA the seats do not seem to recline as much as EK. Up until june this year within a 2.5 year period I have clocked up 238,000 miles on EK and part of me is sad to leave but because of more work now in USA i have moved over to BA, its just a shame EK do not stop over in LHR on the way to USA otherwise i would have probably stayed with them. On a brighter note the air mile paid for me,the wife and two kids to go to Sri lanka and Dubai for two weeks so happy days. Now need to wait a few more years to do something similar with BA

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jasonr01 - lucky you switched when you did then, for the last year or more all EK 777 are a 3-4-3 layout, which is VERY cramped, and since changing the advance seat request policy ( it used to be available only to skywards members), now anyone can request seats in advance as long as tickets are already issued, so makes getting those few pairs very hard to get usless booking 11 months in advance as they are the very first to go.

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My wife and son travelled on BA 264, last Thursday, a 6 and half hour sector, Washington to Heathrow on a B777 in economy. They were seated towards the rear, on the side, so just the 2 seats. There was a curtained off central row of 3 seats for the crew rest area. The row in front of that, which was not curtained off was empty. My wife politely asked to move to that row. The cabin crew she spoke to said "no because the oxygen wasn’t working" and she then proceeded to place a case/bag on that row as if to say - "keep away".

Firstly a female crew member decided to use the 3 seats as her rest area for about 40 minutes, shortly followed by the CSD, who my wife at first thought was one of the pilots, decided to take residence, but only after having bought a duvet and covers through from first class, in full view of the passengers and made up a "bed" to have his rest.

I accept that crew need rest, even on short flights, but I understood that this is what the curtained off section is for. However, to use 3 visible seats (i.e. in full view of passengers) and to make up beds with first class duvets all in full view and after other passengers were told that these "passenger" seats cannot be used for safety reasons sends out the message, cabin crew comfort comes before passenger comfort.

Incidentally, the curtained off crew section wasn’t used.

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Disappointing to hear that experience, simply not good enough.

I wonder if the 5,000 (strikers) may be demotivated and putting themselves first, as they feel badly done to? (Not that this is an excuse for such behaviour.)

Playing tough with your employees in industrial action is all well and good, so long as you have effective performance management in place and I find it hard to see how this works on an airliner, where the senior manager (in the cabin) may well be disaffected.

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Disgusted and Martyn........................... This is the state of play on BA flights and has been for a while. The passengers must not inconvenience the crew. That sort of behaviour would not be tolerated on most carriers, but since BA got rid of most of its senior managers the service has deteriorated beyond belief. Martyn, I hope you questioned the CSD, on the flight, at the time, about this demonstration of poor customer service.

We mustnt let VK hear us talking like this. This just doesn't happen in HIS BA world!

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This episode disappointed me because I am an ardent supporter of BA and CW. I have found the service in general across the whole BA spectrum to have increased dramatically over the past year or so. It seems to be ruined by the minority as displayed in a recent situation I wrote about in GVA, when an on duty cabin crew decided to use the lounge to play a game of cards between flights, in uniform and at the expense of revenue passengers as the lounge was full.

Discussions on unions aside, I do support a lot of what the other pro BA supporters write, it just frustrates me that there are still bad apples among what generally is a far better airline, service wise than it was a couple of years ago.

Speaking to the CSD made absolutely no impact and making a fuss at 37000 feet. For what ever reason is a non starter…………. for the passenger.

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"This episode disappointed me because I am an ardent supporter of BA and CW."

Me, too. So far I have avoided the poor service that some posters on various BBs write of.

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BA282, LAX-LHR, 24 August: Club World, main cabin.

No wine offered with main course, had to be requested. No tea or coffee offered subsequently, had to be requested. Plus travellers from the front, and the impoverished from the rear, roaming through the cabin unhindered. If we pay to fly Club, are we not entitled to some deference, attention and protection? Or should we all cram into the Upper Deck, which was, regretably, unavailable until the BA website check-in glitch of 17h35 Aug. 23 was resolved? Next time, I'll get a Plus fare and Raid that Larder until it's empty. Maybe I'll get lucky and join those folks seated in Club who were nowhere to be seen in the lounge at LAX and who were therefore, presumably, the happy recipients of an upgrade. Yours, etc, Mad Max.

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Hi Max

Not wishing to come across as a spoilt child (hmmm), for the reasons you’ve stated and a few more, if seats are not available on the upper deck in CW, I will either choose another flight or another airline. I try to avoid the 777 CW.

Martyn

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Martyn

My main routes are 777 only and I know what you mean, the cabin looks monolithic!

If one can knab 15A or K, they're not too bad.

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Hi Disgusted

Thanks for the tip re 15A and K. I will keep those in reserve just incase.

I used Thai last night to come over to BKK as I wasnt guaranteed an upstairs CW. Flew Thai First, which was still cheaper than CW - it was very very nice, but I still prefer upstairs CW on BA anyday of the week.

Martyn

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Martyn

The two drawbacks drawback on 15 A+K are

- They are released at -24 hours, as they are bassinet positions - They lack a window near to the seat, although there is one a little further away.

The beauty of these seats is you are the last row, so do not have to step over someone's feet and it also feels quite private, as you face the bulkhead.

Strangely enough, I really like the WT+ cabin on the 777, it feels much smaller and intimate and we often use it for famly hols on 6-7 hour flights, where it is more than comfortable enough for that duration, especially on day flights.

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On a flight in Club Europe this afternoon I was asked to move my laptop into the seat pocket for take off. When I put it in it immeiately dropped to the floor because the velcro at the bottom of the pocket was so old it would no longer stick. The same thing happened when I put it in the middle seat pocket. I pointed out to the FA that it really was unacceptable that seats were not properly maintained (it later also transpired that the middle seat recline button was permanently inset). So far, nothing especially surprising but the response I was given was "well you shouldn't really be putting your laptop in the seat pocket anyway - it is against regulations." I asked what regulations but the FA declined to be specific. (The lap top is an ultraportable small lightweight model.) Was I lied to ?

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Cabin Crew from both LHR and LGW I spoke to, said the atmosphere at work at the moment is not very nice and welcoming at all. They are basically doing their job in fear and disappointment. All this is due to the dispute between Management and Crew. They even said there are several issues happening within the company which are unknown to the outsiders and the press is unaware and failed to point out how they are really being treated by their own company.

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Took a CE flight last night, T5 to France.

Tired looking A319, some trim held on by speed tape and not particularly clean (e.g. drinks tray had sticky rings from previous use.)

No proper prioirty boarding, no before take off drink, no hot towel, CSD not seen after meal service (working in the back.)

Got a luke warm cup of coffee, wasn't able to get it replaced, despite using call bell, it was only removed -10 before landing.

Excuse was over work in the back.

Simply not a premium service and I am glad I was not paying with my own money.

Next time I'll choose another carier.

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Splendid.

Delightful trip back in F last week.

Welcomed by name, guided to seat and offered a pre-flight snifter (though am avoiding the current vintage Laurent Perrier Millesime as it does nothing for me).

Guested a colleague up to my buddy seat after take off for some pre-dinner drinks while we discussed some work issues which had emerged whilst away.

Delicious soup (the best thing to eat on a plane - tasty and not overly filling) and a nice light cod for my main course, washed down with the Pudding Wine.

New coloured F BAg (still the ridiculously bulky "Doctor's" style Hindmarch one) by now with REN rather than D.R. Harris which is an improvement IMHO.

Bed made up whilst I changed into my sleepsuit, nodded off to Invictus, which I really must catch in full at some stage.

Bags at the carousel before I arrived (and no, this wasn't a coaching stand arrival) and through into the Arrivals Lounge for some Eggs Benedict in the Concorde Dining Room, and a shower before heading back home.

Superb.

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VK ''guested a colleague up to my buddy seat'' you were lucky, as that is officially frowned upon by BA. It is not allowed as F passengers were complaining that passengers from other classes were occupying the 'buddy' seats and staying there for a long time making a lot of noise. So CSDs and pursers have been told to avoid allowing it. The buddy seat is only to be occupied by another F pax.

You should get a freebie for the glowing report..........

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VK

I am not surprised that you had good F experience.

As a big fan of NCW, I have never had less than a polite, competent service and often it is better than that.

But the shorthaul airline is like entering another world, far from a guaranteed good service in C.

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My experiences in Club Europe (over 30 sectors this year) have been good to excellent.

Swiss is better on board, bmi (used to) have more friendly crew, US airlines have better seats.

But Club Europe, the flight network and timings as well as the lounges, both at LHR/LGW and outstations is still a very strong product when taken in the round. I am even quite partial to the salads, as long as they stop serving the disgusting artichoke one.

Is it any surprise you were "disgusted" by your experience while I am more often than not pleased by my experiences with BA?

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Return LHR/AGP last week. Excellent service both ways in a crammed ( 17 rows ) of CE. Ok the afternoon tea isnt great at that time of the afternoon but plenty of drink runs and more scones Vicar.

Unlike our trip in July -, drink, meal and coffee all served at the same time - curtains closed after 25mins - no extra drinks run but had to go into curtained area and beg for drink whilst SHE ( CSD ) gorbed herself on all sorts of things.

The CE Argentinian Malbec is a neat wine, it is available where I live for about £ 5 a bottle but excellent flight plonk - thoroughly recommend it !

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"Is it any surprise you were "disgusted" by your experience while I am more often than not pleased by my experiences with BA?"

Probably not, as I judge on the experience received on the day and have no great affinity for BA, whereas you seem to.

On short haul product and service Air Malta knock spots off BA. Two hot towel services, drinks before push back, good hot meals. And free wifi in the lounge at Luqa.

Then again, I have a strong affinity for Air Malta.

Travellator, your words align with my experience in CE, inconsistent and good service not guaranteed.

The best flight on BA dhort haul this year for me, was in economy - 2 drinks runs on a 70 minute flight and very pleasant and chatty cc.

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I flew BA 293 LHR-IAD in Club World last week. Amazed to find the power socket, on a BA plane carrying mostly British passengers, does not take UK plugs. And they don't carry adaptors! I vented about this on my Grumpy Business Traveller blog, www.gbtraveller.blogspot.com

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BA ... an excellent example of what can be done!

I flew Club Europe yesterday. The service was perfect. The Captain said goodbye to all the passengers, but what was so impressive, and cost nothing, was that the senior cabin crew member said goodbye to the CE passengers by name!! Amazing, and impressive.

That is when BA is so good.

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A couple of weeks ago I was in the First lounge at LGW and needed a ruler. I asked at the desk and after searching through the cupboards and draws she said she didn't have one. I said ok no problem, it would keep.

I went back to my seat and could hear her on the phone to the other lounge. In about a minute she appeared beside me with a ruler and said "he we are sir, they had one in the other lounge".

That too is when BA is good.

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It was so disappointing to hear such negative feedback and to see that the crew, who are usually all smiley, polite and eager to do a good job, look tired, upset and disinterested. I have a feeling if things continue then those who do book with BA for the service side of things will try other airlines. [url=http://www.pandorasale.org/]pandora beads[/url]

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Does anyone know whether BA have plans to do something about the state of the short haul 767s ? Twice in the past few weeks I have flown to or from Moscow on last minute substitute narrow body aircraft which just cannot cope with the number of pax. Each time the explanation has been the poor reliability of the shorthaul 767 fleet. That is borne out by the experience of flying on these aircraft which seem to have had nothing done to their interiors since some point in the 1980's. The cabin crew go to magnificent efforts to provide good (and often excellent) service but surely on premium cost routes such as Moscow, BA can manage something better ? The quality of the in-flight product offered by BMI on the Moscow route is vastly better (although their cabin crew seem less service oriented than most of BA's) with decent seating and entertainment but their dysfunctional call centre and website mean dealing with them is never without hassle. Is there any cause for hope with the BA 767's and particularly the Moscow service ?

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kievpax

I agree with you about the state of the 767s, they are quite simply a disgrace.

The week after next, I have to commute from Lisbon to Moscow and I have chosen to fly BA to LHR (in economy), but then I will gladly add another stop and a little time to fly with Swiss via Zurich, in business class.

Their fare is a couple of hundred GB less than BA, the product is better and the service more graceful than encountered in the last year and I will not have to risk encountering the 'disco', which should carry a warning for epilectics on the side!

I very much like Club World and use it regularly enough to hold a gold card, but the shorthaul business class part of the airline is tired, unenthusiastic, with a stripped down product and frankly not worth the money for what is a second rate offer.

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As I reported on a previous post (the Finnair report) BA seem to have a two tier CE offering. Where there is no competition on the route, even when it is a 2.5 hour + route (example London Helsinki) the product is cut down to skeleton, i.e. a take it or leave it service, whereas for the prime routes, with compeition, the CE offering far exceeds the the Skeleton offering, in all areas.

I wouldnt mind about these cut down services if only I was advised when I bought the ticket or the reduced service was refelcted in a cheaper price.

This is another example of airlines being allowed to sell a product and service that in some cases is not as described in the 'brochure'.

I am not a Finnair employee and if you have read my post, you will know I felt I was extremely badly treated before they resolved my complaint, but what did impresse me about Finnair is that they have described on their web site that all their A330s have the same product. As long as you find the A330 in the schedule, barring the aircraft going tech, you get the new product.

Asking BA which CE service you get on a partucular route, is met with an inane look/answer as to "what the hell or you talking about".

If the CE offering is the skeleton offering, tell the passenger, if its the full one tell the passenger - that way, everyone knows what product they are buying.

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CMB - can you say what you mean by a "skeleton" offering. I travel a lot LGW-JER and the offering is reduced down in CE primarily because of the time in the air. I have found the same on LHR/LGW-AMS and BRU. But on a longer journey it is much more.

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A replacement has been scheduled only for the longhaul 767's when BA will receive the 787s.

WW stated earlier this year :

''That BA's fleet is relatively young, at about 13-14 years, and the 767s could provide at least another six years' service to the carrier.''

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/02/11/338326/ba-pushing-for-winglets-on-rolls-powered-767-fleet.html

So you have to wait a lot, as i will because i usually travel between LHR-ATH.

Regards

Potakas

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A "skeleton" offering was the way the crew described the CE service Helsinki to London, a flight of 2 hours of 45 minutes. The service was extremely poor, not the usual full CE breakfast offering on the more popular routes. It was a case of bacon, eggs, and sausage, no cold offering, no cereal, no fruit and no yoghurt which is standard in the full CE offering.

The crew described the skeleton offering in that BA has no competition on the Helsinki - LHR route and so do not have to pull the stops out.

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i see what you mean CMB, hope you have complained to BA. I am suprise the crew say they have no competition when Finnair operate the route. Code share or Oneworld or not it is still competition and customers have a choice.

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NT

One does wonder if some crew are stirring the pot, due the IR.

On a recent CE flight, the CSD (who was virtually invisible and did not get back to me the duty free item I asked for at the start of the flight, also did not answer the call bell to replace a luke warm cup of coffee) blamed this on being short staffed down the back.

I know BA has a crewing matrix to avoid this.

Let us not forget that BASSA initially arose mainly from the short haul crew, I believe and that a significant minority, mainly from WW, formed CC89, as they did not buy in to what they perceived as militancy.

Whatever the cause, no more CE for me, until the product and service delivery improves.

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No sure how to start a new blog

Has anyone seen the new northern summer schedules for QF/BA on the kangaroo route?

QF - 1205 DAILY LHR- SIN/SYD A380 BA - 2125 DAILY LHR/SIN 744 BA - 2135 DAILY LHR/SIN/SYD 777 BA - 2200 DAILY LHR/BKK/SYD 744 QF - 2205 DAILY LHR/SIN/MEL A380 QF – 2215 DAILY LHR/BKK/SYD 744 QF – 2230 DAILY LHR/HKG/MEL 744

Note: Time change QF HKG 2230 6 departures including QF A380 ex T3 between 2125 and 2230. One has to wonder if BA/QF and T3 can handle this volume.

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Hi Ausline

To start a new topic, you go to the relevant forum and use the 'add new topic' button.

I've started a new thread for you, hope that's okay.

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Repetition on 767 issues referred to above on flight to Istanbul last week. Decrepit interior, filthy toilets - and continuous "bongs" and flashing call bell lights for 30 minutes after take off rendering work impossible. Crew hugely apologetic but explain that they cannot turn the system off. Isn't there a safety angle in this ? These aircraft need to be refurbished or retired - surely, BA cannot just let this sort of customer experience carry on ?

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This weekend I boarded a BA flight from Heathrow to Prague, travelling Club. When I boarded I was greeted by name and welcomed back. Half way into the flight the purser approached me and asked me if I enjoyed the journey. I could not see that anyone else was receiving this kind of personal attention. So, it was clearly a recognition of my gold status, I have to say I appreciated it very much. Even more so as it was a leisure trip and as I was going to a biker happening, I was wearing motorcycle clothes, giving a rough appearance.

The plane was a rather new Airbus 319, cabin clean and nice.

This experience just fit nicely into a continuous row of nice experiences with BA staff and equipment.

It might be that I am extremely fortunate with my experiences with BA, or it might be that some are extremely unfortunate.

I am looking forward to my next trip with BA, making the travel itself a great experience.

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"It might be that I am extremely fortunate with my experiences with BA, or it might be that some are extremely unfortunate."

Could it also be that the airline does not deliver a consistent experience in CE and we all experience a small sample of the total, even though we are FQTV? This skews our perception.

Have you had the 'pleasure' of travelling on the 767 that Turkman mentions? It is known by those who have as 'the disco' for good reason ;-)

Turkman, I understand your frustration and as declared in the thread earlier, booked with Swiss to Moscow to avoid the BA 767's.

They are not fit for purpose, from the point of view of a business traveller. Considering the prices on the London Moscow route, it is disgraceful to provide aircraft in this state.

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I think frequent travellers have perhaps higher expectations than most; as one would expect.

Further, with more opportunities for comparison, we do notice when service levels we expect (such as front to back food service) are not followed.

I have to say that in my not inconsiderable experience flying both shorthaul and longhaul this year, the cabin service has been notably consistent.

While some of the shorthaul 767s are variable, they are not all in such a bad state, and from a safety/engineering perspective I would have no concerns. Having said that, I wavoid them where possible, though my trip to the Nordics soon will be aboard one, so I can see for myself.

This 767 shorthaul fleet was meant to have been phased out from this year, with the introduction of the 787. The 787 delay was outwith the control of BA, and while it is indeed fair to say that it would have been good to see an alternative plan in place early this year, there were more important matters and cash constraints to deal with at that stage, and the drip-feed nature of the delivery date slippage made the initial “make do and mend” solution the right one given the circumstances.

It is widely rumoured that the interiors of these aircraft will be getting the full interior refit paid for by Boeing in the very near future; this would sort the disco and other issues, and make them more attractive on the resale market; there is life in these birds yet!

I do think BA should develop a “midhaul” configuration for such services as Moscow, but having said that I also think the 767 and CE cabins are fit for purpose precisely because BA can charge so much on this route.

You have to look at what Aeroflot offer; even with the Russian carrier’s newer aircraft and larger business seats, people still stick with BA, and there are very many good reasons for that decision. Given there are only 2-3 of these 767s with the less than optimal interiors in service in a fleet of approaching 200 aircraft, it would be wrong to characterize the whole of the CE experience on the basis of a poor experience aboard one of these machines, which are (at present) most definitely the Dogs of the Fleet.

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Vintagekrug - your comments are always interesting and you defend/promote BA is what I consider to be a balanced even if slightly biased view (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that). Why on earth shouldnt BA be defended and promotoed. I am relatively new on this thread but have been looking at some of the sparring between you and others. What is more interesting than you disclosing whether you are male or female is whether you are a UK or overseas national (I may have missed the answer) to see if you are using the BA services as a "home" airline or otherwise.

What I would also be interested to hear is your views on the competition to Asia by the likes of Finnair and Lufthansa, especially bearing in mind the new FInnair service and cost difference. You stated that you have never paid more the £3200 for a seat so you must be cost concious to a degree, so what how do you justify the BA seat costs in premium cabins, when alternatives are available. If you were that concious of timings and schedules you wouldnt be using disocunted tickets.

This question has nothing to do with who/what/where "VK" is, but merely to take the view of an extremely frequent traveller and how airline choices/alternatives and costs come become part of your travel selection process.

Many thanks

CMB

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Well, I am an "earned" Gold cardholder with both bmi and BA, and comped to Plat with Flying Blue.

But those questions are best answered in a separate thread. I know most about BA, as that is the carrier I use (and prefer to use) most often, but this year have enjoyed flights with Swiss, Air China, Thai, BA, Lufty, Qantas and assorted US carriers, so I do have a good frame of reference.

Oh, and I recall now that I have paid more for a few RTW tickets.

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Ausline,

Picking up on your 17/10/2010 post above, can I ask where you got the information about the planned changes to the timing of QF30 flight, LHR/HKG/MEL?- I have a booking with Qantas to Hong Kong in Febraury 2011 and specifically chose the lunchtime departure from LHR rather than an evening departure. Perhaps this change is effective with the Summer 2011 timetable to be introduced in late March 2011, or are you better informed than the info currently showing on the Qantas website. Would be very grateful of any clarification you can offer.

SORRY MY FAULT- I SEE YOU MENTION NORTHERN SUMMER SCHEDULES I.E. I PRESUME STARTING IN LATE MARCH 2011

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Could I possibly suggest that it might be clearer to start a new thread about the Qantas flight times, perhaps copying ausline’s post of the 17th to give some context, as otherwise we get thread creep which makes the topics rather tricky to follow?

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Alternatively, you could add your question to this thread

http://www.businesstraveller.com/discussion/topic/New-northern-summer-schedules-for-QF-BA

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thanks for these useful comments. As a regular reader but infrequent poster, I had not picekd up on the separately running topic.

Sorry to both of you for wasting your time

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Coates55

If we can't help each other, it's a poor thing :-)

Took me 10 secs to make the post, if not less.

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Picking up on VK's comments, BA's customer service has generally been very good and on many occasions been excellent in my recent experience also, both long and short haul. Most of the time the quality of service is far better than their competitors. However, the 767 short haul situation is a very significant anomaly - the aircraft interiors are considerably worse than "sub-optimal" and there seems to be much less "mending" than is needed. (Indeed, one crew member informed me that replacement parts are no longer available for some of the ancient tv monitors). It is precisely because BA's service is generally so good that the situation with these aircraft and the negative effect it has on the service that can be given to customers is so hard to understand .

There is a certain irony that the best "mid-haul" product around is that of BMI, using the old BA cradle seats they inherited . If BA have any of those in storage somewhere perhaps they might be dusted down and fitted in suitable aircraft for the 3.5 hr + CE services ?

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Yes the BA 767s certainly need a refit on both Shorthaul and Longhaul, I agree. But as someone else said there are strong rumours that will be done soon, so lets keep everything crossed for that. I travel BA on a fairly regular basis too and I have to say on more than 90% of the flights I do find the staff very helpful and friendly, but of course BaA has the odd one out too, just as any other carrier have, which really spoils one's experience I agree and really lets the rest of the good ones down, it is such a shame.

I am really pleased to hear that Roadking had a rather positive experienc eon his Prague flight and you may not be aware, but Prague is on of the launch routes for BA's new "Mixed Fleet". It is great to hear they obviously did BA proud.

As a BA Card holder I always like being adressed by name, i.e. in the Lounges, at the Gate and onboard,of course we all do and it is such a lovely touch. That is something I miss on some other carriers I have flown on I have to admit, but then again there are flights where there are plenty of Status Customers and it would make it very hard for the Crew to use everyones name I guess. As for the service itself, yes the Catering has gone a bit downhill, especially in the Euro Traveller Cabin but I for myself make use of the excellent Catering facilities in T5 or have my meal in the Galleries. Something which is not always possible, esepcially inbound, I know but on a shorter flight it does not really matter to me. One big bonus BA has for Silver Card holders is that you can pre-assign your seat in advance for free, that is something that other carriers, i.e. LH lack, plus the +1 Guest when it comes to Lounge access is great too for Silver and Gold Card holders..

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VK once posted this pdf to the forum:

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/IROL/69/69499/01_ID_2010_Full_presentations.pdf

On page 28-29 you will see how BA plans to change their 767s and the rest of their fleet. You can see that only the world 767s are about to change, for the Euro 767s there is not any plan until the March 2013.

Also on another topic (757's last flight) a poster mentioned that a pilot told him that all the 767s are about to take the new boeing signature interior, but i don't believe Boeing will pay for all of themt as the 787s are not in order to replace the Euro 767s

Regards,

Potakas

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VK's suggestion of a new mid haul interior is a good one, that would certainly make me reconsider CE for longer journeys, as the extra space/comfort would make up the for 'enhanced' product.

Cyprus Airways is one example of such an interior, Turkish another.

I disagree that the nature of the Moscow route justifies providing appalling aircraft interiors, on the basis that 'if people are stupid enough to keep booking...."

An airline should offer a consistent experience across its route network (allowing for different catering on different route lengths.)

VK has criticised EK in the past for its variable business class offerings and that was fair comment; the same principle also applies to British Airways.

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BA's CE product *is* consistent.

The interiors are tatty, but there is a plan in place to fix them.

I never stated the nature of the Moscow route justifies providing appalling aircraft interiors, on the basis that 'if people are stupid enough to keep booking...." but in a market based economy the consumer has a choice, and the consumer keeps booking BA over the competition despite some less than ideal interiors.

Now, I haven't personally flown on these aircraft [added: in the past year] , but know poeple who do regularly and though they do complain about the tatty interiors and disco effect, these are not actually that bad, and the onboard service delivery, lounges and in flight offerings are consistent with other CE routes.

Finally, the point should be made that while Turkish, Air Malta and others do indeed have “mid haul” products, these are on their prime “prestige” routes, on what is a comparatively small route network. Running an airline such as BA with 200 or so aircraft and routes which range from quick hops from London to Amsterdam as well as 15+ longhaul routes to South America, there are inevitably compromises which have to be made. While a mid haul product might be good for Moscow, market forces would not justify any change to the status quo, other than an interior refurb which is rumoured to already be scheduled to happen. Introducing mid haul might also result in a downgrade of those shorter BA routes such as Cairo and Tel Aviv which although under five hours still sport the full longhaul configuration, and would also add complexity to the fleet and cabin offering.

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"BA's CE product *is* consistent."

This statement is not correct; On the 767, there is no empty seat next to all pax, which is why BA only promises an aisle or window seat in its blurb. Therefore the CE product is inconsistent. Fact, not opinion.

FYI, I have flown these aircraft and am speaking from experience.

Air Malta does not have a mid haul product, it has a standard short haul product on all routes, with only catering variations, which are 'banded', just like British Airways.

However, Air Malta business class does have hot towels, drink before take off, which are missing from the CE product.

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"BA's CE product *is* consistent."

It depends on your definition and expectations of "consistency". There are routes where CE differs. As previously mentioned LHR-HEL-LHR. The CE offering is a cut down / skeleton / reduced call it what you want, but is not in line the offering on other more primes routes.

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CE does indeed have "bands" but within each band, the product offered is consistent.

You are of course correct that CE window seats on the 767 do not have a space between them (which is why I would recommend the middle seats, which do have a space). And I was incorrect to state I have never flown these aircraft, I have, but not in the past year or so and actively avoid them where possible.

My last flight was two years ago from IST and the interior (of CE) was perfectly acceptable at that stage.

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I was not aware that BA ever had what normal people call "service," give me Asian carriers anytime!

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VintageKrug, you must work as a reporter for Sky News or CNN. Extremely creative use of English

You have always said that that the CE is consistent yet now you say it is consistent within "bands" recognising that CE has different products for different routes.

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The “bands” are largely catering related; obviously on a short hop to Jersey you would not expect the same catering as a Larnaca trip of almost four hours.

The product is consistent, when viewed on the almost 100 aircraft and 100+ routes on which the service is offered. No question of that.

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Sorry, but I cannot see how a product can be described as consistent, when some aircraft seats have a free seat next to them and others do not. Even the CE middle seats in the 767 do not have a spare seat between them, as they are compressed and have a small gap, so you have product inconsistency even in the same cabin, where the window seats have no space at all.

If you book a CE flight where 767 and other equipment is used and therefore there may be config changes late in the day, you cannot be certain about what product you are buying.

Not acceptable in my book.

I'm a big fan of BA CW, but will not accept this CE product at the moment, unless bundled with a long haul flight.

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I recently travelled LHR-LCA-LHR on the 767. Having read earlier postings I was wondering what I was going to get.

The two aircraft that I travelled on in CE were in not different state as the B737 and A319's that I regularly use between LGW and JER. I would describe them as "worn" rather than tatty. The IFE was working properly, only someone forgot to load the head sets.

The level of food service was greater and more relaxed than the short flights, so it is right that the amount of food available would be appropriate to the length of the flight.

My only other experience of the 767 was in CW between YYZ and LHR about three years ago which was fine. Perhaps I have been lucky, I am doing LHR-LCA in May so will be interested to see how things compare. I have to say though I would prefer to travel on a "worn" 767 on BA than LGW-PFO with Thomson Fly!

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NT

I am pleased that you didn't get the 'disco', as that is in very poor condition, with (apart from the flashing) several monitors that do not work and also horrible loos. As BA has a large fleet of 767s, I guess this is due to the luck of the draw.

Also, on my last LCA flight, there was a problem with the oven, so lunch was served well into the flight, due to slow cooking, which also dried out the food to the extent that it was unpalatable. The service was also poor, with the crew prefering to talk to BA staff returning form a holiday. To be fair to BA, I did report this flight and received a substantial number of miles by way of compensation.

Re the CW 767, I have only flown on one sector on a 'dusk' aircraft, but it was in good nick and the original CW seats were still very good and better than the business class seats on some competitors.

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The CE product itself is consistent in terms of catering, there are 4 Catering Bands, VK mentions them, Band 1-4 depending on flgith length and every single Band has preduct specifications. Band 1-2 are more or less the same they are flights to lets say France, Belgium, Holland and Germany, yet Nice is a Band 3: There is either a hot brakfast, a cold brunch, afternoon tea with scones or a cold meal for lunch and dinner. Band 3, as above, Afternoon Tean cmes with scones and some warm savoury item, but in the summer for lunch and dinner a choice of hot or cold meal, whlst in the winter it should be a choice of two hot meals if I remember rightly, however this year I believe the Caterer (DHL) so far "forgot" to make the switch. Band 4 flights are the longest flights operated by shorthaul Aircraft, i.e. Athens, Moscow, Larnaca,Istanbul,St Petersburg,Kiev,Sofia, Tripoli and Bucharest where it is either a hot breakfast or a choice of hot meals with Canapees preceeding the Meal when drinks are served. Hope I remember everything correctly but please forgive me if I got something wrong. Therefore the Product itself is consistent and as mentioned earlier there is a minority of crew (in all airlines may I add) who choose to deliver it their own way, sadly. I find the CE product itself more than adequate whilst yes the 767 needs looking into , yet there are not that many routes this Aircraft is operating on nowadays.

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@Flier74

I agree that calling passengers by their full names adds a nice touch. But I'd just like to say that in my experience, BA staff can be superb in other ways. Earlier this year, GRU to LHR, Number Two Daughter being treated pre-university to her first ever long-haul flight in Club World. I whispered to the steward that this was her breaking her duck, as it were, and he winked and said: "Ah, big deal, then?" 'Very'" "We'll look after her." And they did. She got off the plane jabbering about how wonderful the whole experience had been, how they kept bringing her drinks, more food, anything. An addict at first try. Number One Daughter's turn comes in January.

As for breaking ducks... first post in this forum.

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Have had issues with BA going back to my Saudi days .including the times of the famous "plumbers specials" VC 10s-Tristars /Concord and decided to avoid them from about 15 years ago.....however ....

Now that BMI have given up the Amsterdam jump I have over the last 2 or so years been almost forced to take the short hop with BA and have found them to be ......wait for it......MOST satisfactory.

Check in has been easy,cabin staff polite and attentive and any minor delays have been met with an extra piece of ice in my G&T with lemon.. of course (although prefer lime..never mind)and thats all I need....or maybe I am just getting old....

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TerryMcManus24: I am intrigued and please enlighten me on the "plumbers special".

You do sound a bit old as have read about the VC10 in an aircraft magazine. (a holiday joke only!)

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I remember flying in BOAC (as then was) VC10s as a child. And I'm not *that* old. Really.

I also remember the Junior Jet Club, the tins of sweeties they doled out to the kids, and the long-suffering 'Aunties' who shepherded us children travelling alone. I was delighted to discover, recently, that they're still doing the same task and are still known as 'Aunties'.

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BOAC retired it's VC10 fleet in 1974 so you are definately not that old!!!

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BA were still using VC10s in the very early 1980s, as I remember collecting my boss from a flight on one.

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DisgustedofSwieqi: I can argue with you on that as your were physically there BUT I wrote BOAC and not BA. A silly technical point really!

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Flying Chinaman

I was adding to your post, not criticising you! Your are correct.

BOAC retired it's entire fleet in 1974, as a matter of interest, as BA started operations on 31/3/74.

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No no I did not take it as a criticism at all but pointed out a big different as we were discussing BOAC and not BA.

Hey that would make you a few year's younger I guess!!!

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I certainly remember flying VC10s in the early seventies. But then, I remember flights from and to the Far East in Britannias in the early sixties (from Singapore, 27 hours with refuelling stops in the Maldives and Bahrein). I really am that old.

As to flight-crew courtesy and service levels ..... on average, standards have gone through the floor (despite individual star performances). But good service levels require that those delivering them are well managed, motivated and happy. Currently, they are unhappy precisely because they are not well-managed. Mr Walsh's style (and I do not refer to his various cost-cutting initiatives in themselves) is humourless, uninterested in people, and unsupportive. A bottom-line focus is fine - but for real success in a service industry that requires enhanced people management skills. I don't, know if Mr Walsh has them. If he does, he has yet to display them. Contrast with Rod Eddington.

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Jonathanmiller: I am very intrigued and feel missed out of the earlier romantic aviation travel grandeur of stopping in all these places enroute (only read stories about travels on the Empire Airways and the "Rest Houses") !

You are very right about managing people for doing a great job as it is also part of my business to do with Human Resources. Don't Rod Eddington was the boss of Cathay Pacific prior to heading BA and Cathay has a very different approach of movitating their cabin crew members. Same with SQ.

On BA you would occasonally get superb INDIVIDUAL FA (best in the world, even better than on CX and SQ at times) but it is a Russian or shall we say British Roulette! The other two airlines are completely consistent.

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Chinaman. You are right on all scores ... except the grandeur. The tech stops involved being bussed to un-air-conditioned wooden huts where the ceiling fans didn't work and there being confined for the hour it took to re-fuel. Refreshment was a sort of uncooled sherbert drink (lemon or orange - both tasted the same) and queuing for the only loo. Ah, the romance of it all. Still, one was younger then and, as PG Wodehouse once said, could "... take a few roughs with the smooth".

The aircrew were nice though. Probably well-managed.

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I remember flying in DC3s in the Far East, and DC6s in the Middle East, and Viscounts... er, somewhere. It may be rose-tinted specs, but I do think the standard of in-flight human service was better than, although the general flying experience may not have been. It's terribly easy to forget the really very high standard of in-flight entertainment etc provided even in economy, these days. As for the original topic, cabin staff are only human and humes respond to courtesy, flattery and general nice behaviour, no matter what they do. Cabin crew is not a job I would choose, but it's a two-way street. Treat them nicely and they'll reciprocate. That reminds me. New Year's Eve sees me airborne. Box of Bendicks for the cabin staff, methinks, and they might overlook me opening the bottle of duty-free champagne.....

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Johathan: The modern day air travel is mostly so standardized that it lacked all the sense of adventure!

You could at least write home about your experiences with the unisex loo and unidentified CITRIC refreshment drink.

Right now many travellers are roughing it on the floor in the Heathrow terminals!!! PG Wodehouse's quotations or not!

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TOH - you old smoothie you. Have a good NYE flight. DC3? Well everyone's flown a DC3! - wonderful old bus is still at it in all sorts of places. DC6? I remember (1964) a split-arse (can I say that? oh well ... ) ex-RAF type, handlebar moustache and all, landing one in up-country Tanganyika (as it was then) on a bush runway, far too short, and leaving it on its nose in the ditch at the end. Made it difficult to get out of. My Viscount memory was Dan Dare to Malta (Luqa) 1961. Nice aircraft. Landed just fine.

Chinaman - too right. Must be misery there at Heathrow. And no sherbert either, from what I hear.

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The only DC3 I've seen is "Betsy", Cathay Pacific's first aircraft and is now being hung in the HK Science Museum! Nethertheless it is very interesting hearing from you folks about these vinatage planes I shall never have a change of travelling in.

Don't be so sure of the fruity sherbet as the stranded passengers might be served this drink to celebrate their Christmas Eve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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My late mother used to reminisce about the old flying boats, having flown Southampton-New York in one in 1946 or 1947. And then from NYC it was coast-to-coast in some old piston-engined thing. Which broke down.

I remember flying on Comets, too, courtesy of Desperate Dan Air. Years later, I met an ex-DA stewardess who had fond memories of the Comet. She told me it was the last proper civil airliner which had a hand crank attachment for lowering the landing gear if the hydraulics failed, as in 'Memphis Belle'. She had to do it once. The crank point was under the floor in the galley, apparently, so they just closed the curtain and cranked away and the passengers were none the wiser.

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All sounded so very exciting, like some thing coming out of Indiana Jones! I guess it was glamourous too.

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Probably not, actually. Flying was glamorous before WW2, but after the war UK airlines relied on converted bombers and even the flying boats were probably still stripped out. I read somewhere that BOAC had to obtain Treasury approval for the dollars needed to buy the first Stratocruisers, as Britain had no proper long-range civil airliners of its own, the legacy of Britain agreeing to concentrate on warplanes during the war while the US forged ahead with its civil programme.

Aircraft like the DC4, DC6 and the Constellation were primarily used as military transports until the war ended. The Strat was actually the wings, engines and tail of a B29 Superfortress grafted onto an all-new fuselage.

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Most illuminating! I am so stuck with images of the PAM AM cabin service I read about every now and then and thinking all travels 40 to 50 years ago were like Hollywood glamour.

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Maybe not quite in the air, but I remember about 30 years ago the local school who had Freddie Laker's god daughter put on Snow White at Christmas and the seven dwarfs had ex FA uniforms to dress up in. They were quite short even for 10 yr olds, must have looked good on the girls!

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Flying has become very institutionalized!

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Talking about Dan Air - their service base was at Lasham in Hants mainly a gliding airfield. They had Elizabethans and I think a couple of DC 4's. They acquired ex BEA comets. The runway at Lasham was short and when these aircraft arrived to be attended to the barbed wire fence at the end of the runway was taken down. It usually took the pilots 2 or 3 circuits to touch down at the edge of the tarmac - same on take off !

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BTW - of things Comet and Dan Air; if you fly with BA ex LGW today (!)you'll still find some current cabin service managers who worked on the Comet - respect!

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@Travellator: I've done a gliding day at Lasham. The thought of landing an airliner there is, um, worrying.

Earlier this year I flew in and out of Temuco - southern Chile. There's a recently cleared bit of woodland at the end of the runway. This was owned by some bod who refused to sell nor to cut down the trees, and they had to be lopped in order to give enough clearance for 737s to get in and out. Only happened this year, I think.

@staoge222 - one of the appealing things about a lot of BA cabin crew is that they've got so much experience.

Incidentally, if anyone wants an idea of what _really_ elegant air travel was like, check out http://www.airships.net/hindenburg/interiors

and especially

http://balduin.wordpress.com/2006/10/13/speisesaal-im-luftschiff-hindenburg/

which includes shots of the replica interiors, at the museum at Friedrichshafen

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Unfortunately Hack you will encounter the quality and experience of BA cabin crew steadily, remorselessly deteriorating.

BA used to set the bar very high for CC. It required fluency in at least two languages with extra payments for each additional language - you may recall the discreet flags alongside name badges indicating the range of languages spoken.

Most CC had degrees, from the time having a degree was more an exception than the rule. It was understood that higher calibre staff could interact far better with F CJ passengers and be better suited to handle the not infrequent flaws, failures, issues, disruptions and crises in the flying experience.

The typical start age was 25, therefore had reasonable life experience already. People service experience and orientation was a pre-requisite, being rigorously validated at a thorough interview.

The bar is now so low a world class limbo dancer could not get beneath it.

Under Walsh's tenure, the status of BA's front line - the cabin crew, has been relegated to a refuge for displaced bus drivers, baggage handlers, surplus check-in clerks and others to minimise/avoid redundancy costs.

The new recruits for the new mixed fleet (intended to usurp long haul crew over time) are predominantly 19-21 year olds with a few experienced hands from budget airlines or other mainline redundancies/malingerers. The old budget airline hands being given a second shot as many were rejected by "the world's favourite airline" when they first embarked on an airline career - the entry bar now lowered to second basement level.

As there are no language or service experience pre-requisites, young attractive girls, anxious to travel the world for a couple of years but with no discernable service ethic or expertise are the order of the day.

A high turnover of low paid staff being preferred to higher paid career orientated, customer centric professionals.

You will see an increasing use of comment - complaint forms as crew's propensity and ability to resolve in flight issues are compromised by recruit's lack of willingness/inability to think for themselves, lack of life experience and lack of flying experience.

Central to “the World’s favourite airline” was the front-line cabin crew. This nomenclature will never again be attained.

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