Wasn't as fat as this guy

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/a-flight-of-fancy--or-a-really-big-problem-1832010.html

but he was still pretty fat

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This is the reason why SQ boasts of the widest seats they have on their planes..If this guy travelled Biz or First Class on SQ A380. or the 777's he would pay exactly the same fare as you and me, but would have the most comfortable seats -but subsidised heavily (pardon the pun), no doubt by our goodselves and left a larger than normal carbon print. SQ is the only way to fly!! And further more, we get "squeezed" with how much luggage we can check in or on board and have to pay for extra charges based on per kg over the limits. In being politically correct nowadays, how about we have airfares based on how heavy we weigh - That would be a fair way to travel??

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I've often thought that at check in the passenger should be weighed with their luggage and charged for the total.

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A joint weight allowance for passenger and lugage would undoubtedly be the fairest way of doing this, although in the case of someone very fat, but travelling light, it is unlikely to be much in the way of consolation for the person in the neighbouring seat.

My suggestion would be to yes, weigh someone with their luggage, but then additionally have some kind of sizing machine next to check in for larger customers. These could be of two sorts.

The first would be like the metal cage which is currently used for checking the size for hand luggage ("If it doesn't fit in here..." etc). It would be the same format but with seat arms at the normal width. If the bottom of the person didn't fit, then two seats would have to be purchased by that person.

A second, alternative, would be to have a large piece of plywood with the silhouette of a normal-sized person cut out. If the suspect person could not fit through the silhouette but instead got stuck, then again, they would have to pay for an upgrade, an extra seat, or simply charter their own jet.

In this way regrettable incidents of normal sized people being squashed would be avoided.

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As a FFT - fat frequent traveller - I find all this talk of charging me and my large brethren insulting and unfair. I am on a diet at the moment due to increasing concerns expressed about my weight by my wife and my friends. So last night on my flight from Amsteram to London I rejected the offer of my snack and also only drunk water - under your draconian suggestions, surely I should get back the money I would have had to pay for spilling out of my fat cage for saving money on catering. I am now off to buy some celery.

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I am no size zero myself, and if we are talking of fellow travellers that cause us grief and inconvenience lets widen the search, but how would we collect revenue from these?

Elbows over the arm rest and digging into your side.

The broad sheet paper reader who after years of reading broadsheets seems incapable of folding them.

The busy executive who has no time to wait for luggage so crushes your hand luggage and jacket in the overhead bins with his/her oversized hand luggage, laptop case, handbag, overcoat, umbrella etc.

The executive who really needs to have air force 1 to use, as he just has to use his mobile or blackberry despite your altitude.

The person that sits in your seat and ask would you use there allocated seat to change moving (they have a middle seat and knew it!).

The busy executive again who insists on boarding last and then has this confused and dazed look when he cant find space for his oversized suit bag.

The nice lady who has packed so much into her trolley bag she can’t lift it, and asks you to help, giving you the hernia.

So we all have little problems lets not simply associate it too one.

No one can fly in a first class suite every trip. (I never have!)

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Celery would not be a good move for the passengers sitting behind you!!

I once made a comment on a really fat guy on a United flight from LAX to Sydney "Lucky he's in Business class" i said. He was rather more relaxed when we got off, covered over with a blanket, but still sitting in the same position, having died on the flight.

Some smaller island flights in Asia or South America you are charged according to your weight n luggage. I did this once on Phillipines on some small one off Airline, with a turboprop (10 yrs ago), so a fat American guy had to pay 3x my fare!!

However the plane was very old, & sitting round like a parachute regiment in the seats around the edge of the plane, was unnerving. But not as worrying as the open cockpit, which when we had been trying to take off along the runway, the pilot pulled out a hammer to knock the thrust bar to where it should have been half way down the runway... it was stuck at too low a power!

Ah the days of luxury dangerous travel!!

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Are you sure he was dead? It's amazing what people will do to get an upgrade these days!!!

I'm no flyweight myself, but my kids are. They pay full fare so I presume as they are so light they would get a refund?

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Can I add: the baby who screams throughout the flight and the chld who thinks that kicking the chair in front of him is 'fun'>

Parents should be charged $1 per kick. Or scream. Whatever is most annoying.

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In principle I'd say that children, being on average lighter than the full fare paying adult, should be allowed more luggage (up to 32kg, say). In those cases families could redistribute their luggage allowance across the family group, therefore.

Children can often be noisy and irritating, however. So as a future revenue stream for airlines, flight attendants should be given noise meters to determine if a child (or chidren_ is being too noisy.

If they are, then instant on-the-spot fines, payable by swipe card through the duty free handheld machine could be levied. Video cameras could also be employed in case of dispute.

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If we are going to air all our flying grievances, my pet hate along with chair-kickers are passengers in the row behind you who pull the back of your chair every time they get up and sit down - waking you up or disturbing the movie you are enjoying. Even worse - they accidentally grab some of your hair along with the back of the seat and pull. Ouch! Whatever happened to live and let live?

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Perhaps as we are charged a tax for everything else, a Child Passenger tax, at say £200 each, would deter parents from bringing them on board? Pam Ann places them all in overhead lockers...

Offending rude kids that run up & down or kick chairs, can be housed in the crew cupboard at the back where a steel cage could be erected on the door saying "Kid play Area".

I had this on the A380 in Business SIN -LHR a month ago. After so much kicking, i stood on the seat turned around & scowled at the child, & made a public announcement about the state of parents who are uncontrolled by their parents, clearly so the parents were embarrassed. I told him how to behave respecting other people.

It clearly worked!

Failing that, i recommend sedating them with valium Chocolate milk!!!

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Mark, You are a brave man to do what you did. With "airrage" much on the rise, one would think you'd better refer to the cabin crew to take care of things? After all, you're paying the airline for its services and to have a quiet "undisturbed" fllight? If it comes down to taxing these little rascals, you may find yourself upended as to the one who "Pays" more often has the right to "scream" the loudest!! In fact, I simply do not understand why airlines do not "train" their FA's to handle situations like this. They do have quite a bit of "clout" when it comes to handling "unruly paxs" who has too much to drink, so why not "crying babies" and "little monsters" on board?? FA's should tackle the situation head on with the irresponsible carers or parents on board!!

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I think some Airline crews find it easier than others & this is reflected in their home base countries. I have see some quite frightening but very professional KLM crews announce for children to behave or stay in their seats, as well as dealt with directly. Expecting SQ crew to do so in the premium classes wouldn't be likely, as in this case.

I am a Director in Psychiatry, so i tend to ascertain & evaluate the situation & people involved before. Sometimes using peer group pressure, or making it very obvious i am stating what everyone else wants to & then hears, adds a psychological method of managing behaviour. I take on board the rages risk, but often i have found with a direct assertive point made, also causing embarrassment, but polite can also help.

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Now we've started on unruly children I suspect the floodgates will really open. For years I've been advocating a no-BOB airline (no Brats-On-Board: brats in this sense can refer to the useless parents as well as their screaming children). Smoking has gone, why not screaming?

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Children below a certain age, I think of less than 3 years cannot compensate for the difference in airpresure between cabin and their cavities around the nose and forehead. Try flying with a serious could which blocks your sinuses. Then you ill know what the screaming of the little kids is all about. When we were travelling with babies my wife tried nursing (breast feeding) - it helps somewhat. But not all airlines allow nursing a baby.

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I think we are talking about kids those that shout out "I Want", & hassle other people when they don't get it.

I watched a child do the same in Waitrose a month ago, mother was dis-interested even when the 7 yr old screamed abuse in the store. We were all supposed to put up with it.

then he pout his hand up & pulled down the whole displays on shelves walking along...and they all walked off!

Hard as it is flying, if kids cannot behave & hassle others or run up & down etc, then they shouldn't be brought to fly. Health & Safety, & confined spaces apply to children also...

I shall ensure a spare straitjacket is in my cabin bags in future...!!

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Agree with you JoyceWong2

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Hi everyone !

I just want to share you my recent flight with CX from BAH to HKG in C Class. I was sitting in the front row. A family of four with mom and dad as well as one infant and a 19 months old girl. Mom was busy with the infant and sit on the left front seats with the bassinet, while dad and little girl sit behind my row. Both children have some periods of silence and have some very loud periods as well--where sleep or peace on this night flight was impossible. Luckily I had a chat with the father while standing at the gate on the lane for boarding and learned a bit from one another. So the two children are not that stranger to me before boarding. The parents are very aware of the situation that some C pax have no tolerance at all--when young children or infants get loud. So they tried their best to comfort the children and be quiet or settled. As I sit in the middle row of this A330 regional configuration. Most of the pax going to the loo on the right side of the plane were crossing my seat. I never had such a traffic infront of me--I had the feeling I had to be careful not to be overruned by the crossers!

So what do I feel after such a flight? Actually I was calmed, because I had the impression before the flight that the parents are aware of the situation and tried their best not to disturb the others. Regarding those crossing situations. I am honest--there are times where I just spread my legs so wide appart that no one dared to cross me. I definitely think it is really rude to cross over someone in such manner. They just have to take the effort and go through the galley

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My son (now 10) has been flying with me since he was around 2 years old, almost always in Business Class, both short-haul and long-haul. Never on one occasion has he (to my knowledge) caused problems to any other passenger.

This, I think, is for three reasons. Firstly, he is one of those fortunate people who is able to go to sleep wherever he is (I think he could sleep on a bicycle) so he tends to get on board, have some food and then go to sleep. The second reason is that he knows that if he did annoy other passengers, he wouldn't be travelling up front with me again. In my case, this works.

Finally, I think he also knows that if he is well behaved he will often get incredibly spoilt by the FAs - he has a wonderful collection of airline cuddly toys and models of aircraft collected over the years.

Simon

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Somewhat of a digression from the orignal theme of this thread, but allow me to continue!

Hess - nice to have you confirm that parents get some positive points by showing that they are conscious of the (potential) disruption their children may have on the other pax. Being a relative new parent, I am certainly aware of this now!

And what to do if your little one is not acting with appropriate decorum?

We took our infant to Dubai last month and unfortunately she didn't quite have her fellow passengers' best interests at heart. We were flying Lufthansa's A340-600 service (ex Munich) and fortunately I discovered the fantastic cargo deck toilet area, located at the foot of a wide stairway in Economy. Our little joy could, well ummm, express herself to her heart's content with no one else any the wiser! For hours. The missus slept "like a baby" in 3A, comfortabely unawares of the sacrifices her husband had made in the interest of cabin peace...

Simon - do you or your son make house calls? I can see a potentially lucrative counselling business in the makings. With (family) trips planned to both the US and Hawaii over the next 4 weeks, our little joy could certainly be one of your first patients....I mean, customers.

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Home

I think that there are a number of strategies that can be applied. I do however, entirely agree with Hess and others that if parents appear to be conscious of their child(ren)'s behaviour, then it is easier to tolerate in general.

Paul's comment about air pressure and child physiology is also absolutely true. In my experience, there is very little positive that one can do when travelling with a child below the age of initial comprehension development (say 18 months to 2 years) apart from pray that they have a "good day today."

In terms of strategies for children 2-plus, I would suggest the following, again based on personal experience:

1. Get them a window seat. This keeps their interest, especially if there is also an Airshow. By giving them this seat, you've also got them penned-in and can exercise some direct control over their aisle forays! If travelling with my wife as well, she always sat in the seat directly behind Dan. The logic for this is that if kids want to look around, they will stand on the seat and potentially annoy the pax directly behind them, rather than the one in front (as they can't reach when standing on the seat). My wife could then exercise direct control with a rear flanking manouever.

2. Get them a Nintendo or Gameboy (a freestanding, self-powered pocket console). Also, if possible, a new game before the trip. This will keep them occupied in the lounge, when boarding and in the early stages of the flight (and as an alternative to the AVOD if no decent kids movies). BUT remember the charger and any adapter needed to keep it stoked-up in flight!!

3. Use a mixture of threats/bribery if they start to play up. Threats include "This is the last time" and "I'll get the Captain to turn the plane around if you don't behave" - this latter threat tends only to work up to the age of about 8, by which time most kids will understand the logistical impossibility of this threat being implemented. You could, in such an event, remind them that the plane has to put down if someone dies, but this may be a slightly extreme strategy (or not, perhaps). A further threat is that next time they'll fly economy - best reinforced on a full overnight trip, with a quick demonstration by taking the child on a brisk walk down the aisle, to experience the Black Hole of Calcutta at first hand. Bribery includes starting, there and then, to plan the next trip (the incentive approach) and negotiating how much pocket money they'll get when they arrive, based on how well they behave (the blatant corruption approach). It also helps when the FA's start making a fuss and distributing the free cuddly toys/aircraft models/colouring books/valium (for the parents) etc.

4. Ensure that you book a child's meal in advance, AND check out at the time of booking the likely components of such a meal. I've had some carriers who are great at the kids' meal and others who think Canard d'Orange with chips rather than Dauphinois potatoes constitutes something that the youngsters will drool over.

5. Finally, when they have been well-bahaved, reinforce this by thanking them and again explaining that there were other pax on the flight who'd spent a lot of money and were doubtless grateful for their good behaviour.

Having said all that, travelling with kids above 2 years in Business Class does, in my experience, have its downsides. Dan is now a bit of a travel snob and is never happy when we travel in economy. Also, the first corporate logos he recognised (before he could read) were SAS, Finnair (or "Fat Air" as he calls them - he thought I said they were called "Thin Air"), Hilton and Holiday Inn ("Horrible Inn").

I think the trauma caused by the Aeroflot logo retarded his reading development by about 6 months.........

Hope some of this helps! Good luck, Home (sounds like you might need it!).

Cheers,

Smon

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Simon, you clearly have good parenting skills.

If only every child travelling would have those values n been briefed about consequences, not just informed intelligently why on a plane you cannot run up n down. Babies are one thing, kids that are allowed or decide to let rip, & un-interested parents are another. My SQ trip where i was calm direct but told the child how to behave & why, was also a message to the parents, that clearly were embarrassed but agreed. We are lucky in the premium classes for space privacy, & kids in their are better behaved if they are (Expensive family trip though eh?).

In Economy for kids, it is cramped, stuffy sometimes, & if i saw some of the food coming my way or was sat next to someone of overgenerous proportions sat next to me for 12 hrs, I would cry also!

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Many thanks Simon for such a thorough and detailed reply. Some good advice indeed.

While the "Black Hole of Calcutta" tour may not do much to persuade our 8 month old to act appropriately, I will certainly have to keep that in mind for my wife!

"I'm sorry Madam but it appears we have just one glass remaining of the Cuvée Louise - shall I pour it for you or for your husband...?"

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Sorry to be blunt here but nobody under the age of about 12 should be in Business or First.

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Charles sorry to be equally blunt, but that's utter tosh. The only bad behaviour I've experienced up front has been from business travellers over the age of 12, not from kids. Equally the same is true in lounges. My son travels at my expense. He is courteous and respectful. Unlike far too many of the ego-centric bufoons, travelling at someone else's expense and acting like spoilt children, that I have witnessed up front on far too many occasions, alas.

Perhaps that is one reason my son gets on so well with many FAs. The point is, Charles, you can't generalise about kids OR about business pax. It's about individuals and individual behaviour. Simon

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Simon - I think you are what is called a "responsible parent" who trains his children to act as you would expect others. Sadly there are some people who don't fall in that category and let their off spring run riot on lounges when people are trying to relax or do work.

It is the parents that are to blame, I have had some journeys spoilt by horrible children. But then when I travelled to DXB in First last week there was a cuple with a child, clearly under 2, my first thought was "oh no" but to be fair, not a peep throughout the journey.

As usual its the minority spoiling it for the majority who are responsible like yourself

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Simon, NTarrant, fully agree with both of you. But are we not all wandering from the original thread of this topic.

Talking of obnoxious paxs though, we had a Swiss german couple in the F cabin flying to JNB from Zurich. They were rude, arrogant and thorougly unpleasant.

Despite me being 50+ it is amazing how the schoolboy in me came out as I set about annoying them in small subtle ways, such as opening the window blind between our seats at 5am flooding her with African sunlight and waking her with a start.

Final revenge was extracted when she opened her bag on arrival and a chocolate Santa fell out. To the delight of the FAs I managed to "accidently" stand on it. Mean - yeah! But what satisfaction. Oh, and the fat man in this story of course was poor ol' Santa.

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Nigel - yes, it's all down to individuals (I'm beginning to sound like Brian in the Python movie). I also wouldn't say my parenting is anything special - it could be argued that those of us who do take positive charge of our offspring are possibly those that are not noticed by others!!

Lugano Pirate - nice one, indeed! These are exactly the sort of obnoxious passengers I was referring to in my last post. I must admit to also gaining enormous pleasure from acting like a juvenile and exacting revenge on such people where possible. I too (and you obviously as well, LP) am capable of acting like a child. Indeed, I'm doubtless much more annoying to my fellow pax in First or Business than ever my child is - but only in the sort of circumstances that LP suggests. And it IS immensely satisfying when you get some (even minor) revenge on such ignorant dolts and buffoons.

My favourite revenge (although I played only a small part myself) was on an SAS flight Birmingham-Copenhagen a long time ago. I was in Business Class with a colleague. A large American man boarded and sat across the aisle from us. He was utterly off-hand and unpleasant, to the FAs and to those of us around. He proceeded to place his hand baggage under the aisle seat next to him - this was a Q400 with 2-2 seating.

When the pax boarded who was sitting in the (now legroom-less) aisle seat, he refused to remove his hand baggage from under the aisle seat (the plane was pretty much full), telling both the passenger and the FA that the passenger should move to another seat, and how it was the FA's fault that there was insufficient stowage space in the overhead bins. He was also complaining about how tight the connection he had to make at CPH was and how generally "shitty" SK were.

The FA instructed him to move the bag and to place it on his lap for the duration (I'm not sure how legal this was, but it was funny). The American chap then (once the FA had gone) made it clear to the pax in the aisle seat that he would "sort him out" on arrival. This was clearly a physical threat - the American made this threat whilst standing in the aisle, so several of us could clearly overhear.

To cut a long story short, the aisle passenger was quite afraid of the situation (especially as he knew there was a bus transfer at CPH rather than an airbridge) and expressed these fears to us whilst the American was away from his seat at a point during the flight.

We persuaded the pax to inform the FA of the threat. He did so and, on arrival at CPH, a large Danish policeman was waiting at the bottom of the steps. He then detained the American (this has nothing to do with his nationality, by the way, it's just the easiest way to identify him) and asked the aisle passenger, myself and my colleague (whom the FA had pointed out to the policeman) if we could spare a moment, as witnesses to the incidents.

In short, he conducted a brief interview in a spare bus, there and then on the tarmac! The American kept complaining about his connection time and how it was the only connection of the day. The more he complained, the more the cop delayed him. In the end, the bus took the four of us to the terminal and no charges were pressed against the American by the aisle passenger. However, by this time, the "gentleman's" connection was in the air. Sweet justice indeed.

Simon

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Being overweight myself, I find some of the suggestions here shocking and repellent....and tantamount to racism, or discrimination against someone with a physical disability. For example, how DARE anyone even think that an overweight passenger should be weighed and made to pay for his "excess baggage"??

Instead, surely a modicum of consideration (if not compassion) would be warranted, as overweight people have a lot more to bear than just excess weight! Some have obesity-related health-problems, or issues with mobility. And most are genuinely embarassed by the trouble or inconvenience they may cause to others.

I remember one personal experience: Flying First Class on SQ in the old 2-2-2 layout, I was sitting next to an Asian passenger (who, from his accent, may have been from the USA) and the usual pleasantries were exchanged. Shortly after take-off, I got up to visit the washroom (he had the window-seat and I the aisle) accidentally knocking-over my glass of champagne onto his lap. I tried my best to help him clean-up and apologised profusely, but only got an extremely contemptuous and cold response....and silence for the rest of the flight, which was fine by me. Considering he was wearing a dark suit (so there were no stains) and this was a night flight into Mumbai (so it was unlikely he was going straight to a business meeting) I found his response unnecessarily nasty, especially considering I had apologized sincerely.

So maybe those who are fat AND obnoxious are right after all....as niceness is seen by many as weakness!

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Well done Simon. Having just stayed a few days at the Mount Nelson in Cape Town, I came across a few more of those obnoxious people who think they are better than anyone else. Anyway, to my amazement my ten year old boy, came out with a few words, such as stuck up, brainless etc which put them visibly to shame.

BombayTeddy, what a great handle. Fully agree with your comments. Glad we are back on track with the original thread.

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PaulRWoods... Which airlines dont allow breastfeeding? I would much rather sit next to a nursing mother than have a hungry fractious baby screaming in my ear for the duration. Everyone else on the flight gets a drink and something to eat, I wonder who on earth would want to deprive an infant!

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I totally agree with Simon.

I have travelled with my niece who was 4yo on biz, nephew, 4mo old together with his mother and they didn't didn't disturb a soul. Children generally are glued on to cartoons or their own toys and games as well as the "aircraft's childrens pack".

Majority of my family, extended family and friends all travel frequently and travel with children in both biz and first class depending on route with a maid in economy. I have never encountered "spoilt brats running around in biz or first class".

Mostly I find that it's the adults that make a big fuss. Those who really pay for their fares know how to behave "ethically" and do not complain as much. I am blessed enough to be one of them and I have travelled on economy as well on short hauls and sometimes just to walk around to see how others behave!

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Families families families...

Now then, back to fat people, or, as they say in France

"Passengers with a high body mass"

Got to love them...

http://www.airfrance.co.uk/GB/en/common/guidevoyageur/assistance/particuliere_pfc.htm

"...The aisle width on our aircrafts is 43 cm (17 inches). The width of our onboard seats is:

* 40 to 45 cm (16-17 inches) in the Voyageur and Alizé cabins (which corresponds to a waist measurement of 135 cm or 53 inches),

* 47 cm (18.5 inches) in Affaires medium-haul business class cabins, (which corresponds to a waist measurement of 149 cm or 59 inches),

* 47 cm (19 inches) in Premium Voyageur long-haul class cabins, (which corresponds to a waist measurement of 149 cm or 59 inches),

* 50 to 53 cm (20-21 inches) in La Première first class and Affaires long-haul business class cabins, (which corresponds to a waist measurement of 200 cm or 79 inches).

If you are traveling in Affaires business class on a medium-haul flight, for technical reasons, you will not be able to reserve an additional seat. In this case, you are advised to reserve two adjacent seats in the Voyageur cabin.

In the interest of safety, if the flight is full and you have not reserved an additional seat, you may not be allowed to board if your build does not permit you to sit comfortably in a single seat.

The best suggestion is that if you are too fat for the business class seat (now that's going some!) then you get downgraded to two economy class seats.

DOWNGRADED BECAUSE I WAS FAT !

Will be the headline, I imagine.

One thought, though. If a fat person can purchase the seat next to them in economy, and then not get charged for it if the plane isn't full, why can't I?

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Years ago (in the days of F & Y only) I had a friend (of normal weight and size) who received his travel allowance in cash and was permitted due to his position in the company to fly F. What he would do was book two seats, window and aisle in Y thus guaranteeing no-one would sit next to him and giving him enough extra space for his coat, papers and that extra bit of comfort. The saving over first was still enough to make it worthwhile and allowed him to pocket some extra (taxfree) cash.

It seems this is no longer allowed and Ryanair bans it altogether though digging through Easyjet's site it seems it is possible under certain circumstances but you have to call them, it's not possible to book online. In theory this would give you double baggage allowance (which in some cases would make it cheaper than paying the excess charge) and I suppose if you book two seats and check-in online you would perhaps get away with it.

Has anyone tried this and what was the outcome I wonder?

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PS to the above: I wonder if you get miles for both seats, or just the one?

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Perhaps the national airline of France should levy an extra charge to those passengers who are smelly and/or rude, especially on flights in and out of Paris. That would make them a lot of money!

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Hi everyone !!

just to stay objective here--if I am the flying pax with huge size--and I know that a typical economy seat is just too tight for my own comfort--isn't it just normal to think, what is better for me rather than torment myself with discomfort and your neighbours as well. If want to sit in Y class--I would rather take the possibility and purchase the seat next to me and at least secure myself peace, comfort and freedom. Regarding flying in C or F. Some C class seats are wider than Y class seats in general--but there are airlines which C seats are not that wide enough--for some others( I saw it often in my previous flights--some had problems relaxing in their C seats internat. and regional) So what would be the best--buy the a second seat in Y or get a C or F seat with wide seats.

P.S. this is not an offence on those readers who are big in size--but an objective opinion, instead of cursing the airlines or people of a certain region.

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On a recent flight to LHR-SFO i was sat comfortably in my seat (business) and a huge person, sweaty and smelly came to sit next to me. Once all the bags we stowed out came the sandwiches, the doors hadnt closed and once they had been deposited inside the drink requests started. As I knew the flight was full, I did the only decent thing - got up, gathered my belongings and proceeded to get off and wait for the next flight - after io course I had asked for my bag to be retrieved from the hold.

Its the first and only time I have met a Captain who said he had personally assesed the 'situation' and invited me to another more comfortable seat in First.

I was incidentally, more than happy to take the next flight - but the Captain, what a nice man, resolved the problem.

I had heard from the cabin crew that somebody had refused an upgrade from economy+ to business when they saw who they were sitting next to.

Happy days

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Hi everyone !!

I believe most of us here -- have nothing against people who are big ! But the main point is not the size of those persons who we dislike in such circumstances but the smell and hygenic condition these persons have while seating beside or around us.

We should always consider that hygene is very important when flying as you are encountering different people. It is not only the matter how high those hygenic standards each one of us expect from somebody we do not know - but at least to consider it seriously and apply it in a moderate way. Everyone of us here -- would have taken the same steps as Martyn in such situations when there are no other vacant seats left on that flight.

Against noise - you could use your ear plugs to at least minimize the noise level or being lucky just blocked it entirely. But against a bad odour or smell ( no, I am not recommending to use those ear plugs for your nose-- although it is an option -- but looking like Miss Piggy in the end !) -- it isn't quite easy to find a solution without hurting someone's feeling -- Yes, how could you politely say to this person that he/she "stinks" without at least risking to have a verbal fencing ?

It is quite easy to get help from a FA to find a solution isn't ? But the problem is still not solved -- well entirely ! If you can move somewhere else than the problem is only solved locally. But this "stinking person " is still the menace of those seating beside or near him/her.

So it is important to remember us everytime that we are not " alone in this world " that we have other " roomies " in this planet ! And we should be aware of the impact we have to others --not only regading our BEHAVIOURS ! but also our hygenic conditions.

A last thought !-- I remembered when I flew CX to Mumbai in the past. I was sitting beside an Indian pax who smelled so strong of " curry ". I was appalled at that moment but I realized .. hey, Mr. Hess who are you to think like that! .. You are flying to India.. you would be encountering a lot of those locals who would smell the same ! So after realizing my prejudices -- main meal was being served at that moment -- I opted for the local curry dish. And afterwards I did not smell the "curry" from my neighbour at all because I am the one who smelled like curry now !

Of course I did not mean that we should smell like the person beside us -- but sometimes do remember to be modest and think first before we judged those who are different from our European point of views or living standards.

Back to the hygenic conditions -- I just seriously recommend those pax who have the possibility to take a shower during stopovers to do so before continuing their long haul flights. Or at least use some wet tissues to refresh themselves. And against bad odours -- decent use of deodorants and of course mouthwash are really not that big issues, aren't they folks ??

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It is not only overweight people who may or may not smell. I have sat next too many a larger person with no problem at all. I have also sat next to thin people who last saw a shower in the 60's.

Long (and short) greasy haired people (of both sexes) who do not apply deodorant, and even, mainly women here, who have the habit of fluffing up their long hair, letting hair and other "dust" fly out over me or worse, my drink or meal.

So let's not discriminate on the basis of size. It would just be nicer if people recognize that traveling in small confines means a little more consideration towards their neighbours.

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Sometimes well-intended actions may backfire... I was sitting next to a gentleman on the 03:30am departure from Tunis to FRA last autumn in row one in business. This gentleman must have used half a bottle of a strong fragrance... This is normally a flight with major sleep challenges due to short haul aircraft, timing of flight, but it was awful.. To my dismay, no alternative seat was available as the flight was full.

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BBC's fast:track aired a discussion on Friday on whether overweight passengers should pay more. To view this, including comments from our very own Tom Otley, visit:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/8539156.stm

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Hess,

Thank you for making me laugh!!

Simon

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This is a wonderful thread, thanks all!! Perspectives on weight and travel change significantly with personal circumstances. I have lost alot of weight (over 70 lbs) over the past year and so, of course, stand firmly on the side of punative penalities against the grossly overweight when travelling!! Seriously, maybe the thing to do is to tell the overweight passenger who dumps him/herself next to you about the real benefits of smaller size when flying - fitting easily even into the narrowest, LCA seats; being able to put your shoes back on while remaining seated; passing crew and fellow passengers in the narrowest aisle; and, yes, in hygiene terms, sweating alot less when running for flights etc or boarding in a hot climate. The downside? Being horribly santimonious!!

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haha, this is hilarious topic. hopefully it never happened to me.

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I love Singapore Airlines and have flown them a dozen times from LAX to Bali. It is obnoxious to limit a first class passenger's luggage to two pieces under 29kgs. And then to want to charge $400USD for a 3rd bag-- I'll be back on Cathay from now on.

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Themikes - interesting comment. However, unless I've missed something, I'm lost as to how it's relevant to this thread.....! Mind you, we've veered away from the topic already several times already, so what the hell does it matter?!

By the way, we can't use the word "obesity" anymore:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/8615839.stm

Regards, Simon

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POST REMOVED BY MODERATOR

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Let us not mince our words here, Boddies, there's no doubt at all what you are ;)

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i always am a fan of freedom of speach - but when postings are made in the manner of Boddingtoms, I hope that BT, will remove not only the post, but also the author.

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Quite agree Martyn

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This thread is becoming a little annoying. Fat people exist and are a part of life...accept that! So are those who may be fit but obnoxious and/or hygienically-challenged. So deal with it....or charter a plane.

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Shame I missed Boddingtons reply before it got deleted..

I'm curious as to why generally people feel it's upto the cabin crew to sort out situations regarding noisy kids/babies?? I have never received personal training as to how to passify young ones....and agree with the poster that mentioned it's likely to depend on the background of the individual flight attendant..... Agree with the blocked ears comments for young tots..

Also I wonder why we as crew get asked "Can you ask the person in front to put his seat forward??".. Depending on my workload I "can" have a word, but generally only ask this during the meal service...if too many seats are reclined I tend to make a quick announcement... I am curious as to why some passengers can't speak to that person themselves??

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I was thinking on my first flights that if i put back my seat i will make it uncomfortable for the person who seats behind me, but if you think about it, it's ''why i paid a BA ticket and not a ryanair?

Because i wanted to travel comfortable!!

Flight travelling is something like public transport in our days and you have to afford a fat guy or a noisy child in your trip when you travel at economy class (it's like when you take the bus),

If you want to have more privacy, buy a business or first class ticket (where i believe that the children shouldn't allowed there) .

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Hi Potakas

Generally I've agreed with most of your posts. But I don't agree with you here.

Please read my earlier posts and also on a related thread about kids. It's not kids that shouldn't be allowed in Business Class. It's a large proportion of business persons, travelling at someone else's expense and who abuse their position. Not you or I or many others on this thread, I am sure. But you know exactly whom I mean, I am sure.

Regards

Simon

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Simon you are right and i agree with your previous posts, that is up to the parents to control their kids.

In my opinion if you respect yourself and your family you don't want someone to speak to you and tell you what is right to do (worst when the other person is correct).

But as you mentioned many of them think, that because they travel at business class they are superstars or something else (most of the times without paying from their pocket).

AND THEY DON'T RESPECT ANYONE

That's why i said that they should not allowed children at business class, Of course this is not fair for you or for someone else who can or better want to control his children.

On my last business class flight a passenger (Heraklion's Mayor) didn't want to hang up his mobile during take off. I am sure that he bought the business class ticket with municipality's money. (He was talking about a football game)

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Potakas, I wish everyone on this Forum said it straight fro the heart like you do. You rock, my friend.

Regards

Simon

PS I work a lot for the public sector and I know exactly what you mean. I buy my own tickets, for myself and my family, so I am accountable for my own and my family's behaviour. Unlike a Mayor, who is answerable to his electorate, who I bet weren't on the plane to see his behaviour.....

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BACrew 1 your post amazes me. When in the past i have been put in a confrontational situation with a pax, its the cabin crew who intervene and say "but Sir, thats why we are here, to help you". You guys do a wonderful job and pax safety and comfort is what you are paid to undertake. Thats why pax as you guys politely or otherwise. Surely, you didnt think you were just pushing a trolley along the aisle!

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MartynSinclair.... Sorry my post amazes you...

Firstly why should the situation be confrontational?? You are merely asking the person infront if he/she could put his seat forward... As you correctly point out I will intervene if I see a situation is overheating (and have done so many times in my 13 year flying career)... Thankyou for acknowledging we do a wonderful job.. it really is appreciated.

I am paid for passenger and aircraft safety...certain aspects of comfort are totally beyond my control... for example I can't assist if the flight is full and you have a fat passenger next to you, I can't help if the passenger infront refuses to put his seat forward (I can indeed ask, but I cant force them), I can't help them flimsey design of the club seat or the bad pitch of the WT seat....

Going back to my original post I just wish passengers would sometimes speak up for themselves regarding asking the person infront to put their seat forward...

At the end of the day I am not sititng in that seat.. if I was, and I was uncomfortable I would quite simply ask the person to move it myself...without disturbing the crew... surely they need to keep the service going of serving food/drinks?

If pushing a shopping trolley around Waitrose and the aisle was blocked by other trolleys, would you get a shop employee to ask people to move (for good customer service).. or would you politely say "excuse me"?? "Surely, you didn't think you were just pushing a trolley along the aisle!"

I know the real answer to that statement, but unfortunately that's how the majority of the general public see cabin crew as now.

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Sadly in these times a polite request to put the seat forward whilst one is eating can be met with an agressive response. Passengers see the crew as being someone in authority that will make their journey more comfortable. Not in the same vein as a police officer merely to ease any possibility of creating an uncomfortable atmosphere.

So when you say please ask a member of the crew if they can help you to make your journey more comfortable (or words to that effect), asking the person in front is not part of making a customers journey more comfortable? I agree with Martyn that you guys and girls do a great job in looking after us, but don't spoil it.

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I havent read all your previous posts BAcrew1 but i presume you are long haul 747 crew, who has the kind of attitude that makes pax cringe. I know many crew both flight deck and cabin crew and they generally fall into one of 2 categories. The first being those who love their job, provide excellent customer service and go that extra mile to ensure pax comfort and security and tend to acknoledge the fact that they are paid to provide a service. Then there are those crew that seem to forget what they are paid to do.

And for the record, I would draw the trolleys blocking the aisle to an employee at Waitrose - although if you shop in M & S this tend not to happen.

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"i presume you are long haul 747 crew, who has the kind of attitude that makes pax cringe"

OUCH!? that's quite harsh.. and infact downright unfair.. That's the response I get from voicing a personal opinion wishing for passengers to speak up for themselves with regards to the seat infront of them being reclined?. Have I judged you at any point, saying what kind of passenger I think you may be, from your posts?? I don't think so

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Tut, tut, chaps (or chap and chapesse, as the case may be).

Martyn - I hope bacrew 1 doesn't read the passenger manifest too closely if you both happen to be on the same flight at any point in the future........!

One of the advantages of the anonymity that you and I choose to forego, Martyn, is that if you're anonymous, what you say is far less likely to come back to haunt you....

(I loved the M&S line, by the way)

S

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Simon

I have plenty of confidence in BA that the cabin crew whom i meet in First and Club provide an extremely high level of service. Its interesting to note that i was spot with where BAcrew1 works. I hope he does see my name on the pax maniifest, i would be more than happy to fly with him/her and discuss the situation. Anonymity never scares me, hence the use of my real name.

I accept BAcrew1's comments about attacking a "personal opinion" HOWEVER - it was not a personal opinion made. BAcrew1 quite openly explained how he/she would act in a certain situation and that showed the kind of attitude he/she has towards the job.

BA have service standards, my advice is that they shoul dbe kept and not self interpreted!

Martyn

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Martyn,

Good man. I agree. However, we should also bear in mind that BA crew are angels of mercy compared to those of some other airlines that are discussed here!!

I also agree about the anonymity argument you make. It's a pity that some of the more shall we say "contentious" posters on here haven't got the courage of their beliefs (or even courage per se) to use their real names.

Regards,

Simon

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I can't realize why this argument happens. The crew is there for two reasons.

Fist for the safety of the passengers

and secondly to serve them, make their flight pleasant and help passengers with disabilities and things like that.

i can't see the reason why the crew should ask from a passenger to come forward, that's the way he want to be, and as the seat can recline he can do it.

It's unfair to ask that thing, you actually ask someone to seat uncomfortable and maybe you will wake him up in order you to be confortable. If someone smoke a cigarette in the plane or do something ilegal, then yes you can complain to the crew.

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I've been thinking about this post recently and the various comments.

There are many large people who are not necessarily "fat". For example sportsmen such as Rugby players, wrestlers, or even Sumo Wrestlers! Some Rugby players top 20 stone, but I bet few would dare to call them fat.

It does seem that in today's world we are less tolerant of others and less respectful of others feelings. Which is better, a large person next to you, or a girl with long hair in front of you who puts her seat back on take-off and then fluffs her hair up, leaving it hanging over the seat and the "dust" to be polite - in your lap?

As for children in the premium cabins. Why not. But they should be respectful of others. My kids, 6 and 10, travel business longhaul with me (and it comes from my own pocket) and they are perfectly well behaved.

Tolerance, respect and courtesy is required of each one of us in this crowded world!!!

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I totally agree with Lugano considering I pay for all my airfares in Biz and First Class with my nephews and niece. They are taught to be well behaved and to know that being able to fly on any class (especially on the 380s or upper decks for Biz is indeed a treat and not taken for granted.

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Lugano, Luckyone, I agree with what you say about children.

Simon

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Thanks Simon. Luckyone, you put into words what I was thinking but did not express. It's very important for children to realise it's a treat and a privilege, and not to be taken for granted.

Regrettably, the only other option is I sit in the back with them!!!

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Lugano - how true! At last someone has admitted that really we only take them up there in our own self-interest!!

It is a privilege though, as you rightly say. Perhaps parents should realise that it's in their own self-interest to keep their kids under control and that, for the kids, it's also in their own self-interest to be well-behaved!!

As far as whether children are differently behaved depending upon nationality, as suggested by some, I'm not sure. Culture will always play some role in behaviour, but so do genetics and, above all, upbringing. All nationalities have "good" and "bad" parents, and "goodness" and "badness" is not always along the same behavioural dimensions (i.e. they may be "good" in some areas and "bad" in others).

My personal jury is still out on that question!

Regards to all and I hope none of you have problems with the latest ash dispersal,

Simon

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Lugano you are right and i would like to mention that because the money came from your own pocket, you understand what is the proper behavior.

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Sitting here this morning in the Virgin Clubhouse, I have just witnessed a kindly, professorish-looking american gentleman click his fingers at the staff and demand that he gets a glass of wine within the next minute - i kid you not!

I pity the poor cabin crew who have him for the next few hours!

It's at times like this that I marvel at the world of flying - this behaviour would not be tolerated in a restaurant, so why here?

I feel it is because that flying anything other than economy instills a mind set that encourages our (british) sense of class and enhances our feelings of self-importance, especially after a few glasses of Chardonnay.

Branson was right to consider the naming of his services - upper, middle and lower class - it's the elephant in the room as far as I am concerned.

I have a 1 and 3 yr old - the 3 yr old truly appreciates the marvel of flying, and whilst she is a tinker at home, is in awe of cabin crew and i have impressed on her their importance if we have any 'accidents'.

Seems my american colleage could benefit from her wisdom!

Wow - heaviest post i have made to date. Must be a joke here somewhere, but damned if i can find it!

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Possibly the concept that anyone with any class drinks Chardonnay? ;)

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Indeed. But i thought that 'a few pints of Stella' would betray my roots. I am well classy, you know?

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Back on topic!

I had that worst of combinations on last night's two sectors. A "chatty fatty" sitting behind me.

Not only the size of a house, but also exhibited verbal diahorrea of monumental proportions as he chatted up a similarly rotund lady seated next to him.

Struggling to focus on my papers I moved from 1A back to the rarely-travelled and thankfully empty row 4.

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Serves me right for making a last minute booking in economy - returning from Zurich yesterday - chap whose circumference merited at least one satellite in orbit around him not only complained loudly that the aisle was too narrow but also because I insisted the arm rest between us was to remain in position. I was in that middle seat which one avoids at all costs when having to fly at the back. Felt more like the Maginot Line to me, repel all borders. Came away feeling that charging for combined weight of baggage and pax is def. a good idea.

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I really think the new APD should levy a charge for larger passengers.

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I strongly feel that people who spill out of standard seat should simply have to pay for a second seat, I dont care what problems they might have in being fat, I dont want them near me, touching me or oozing the smells onto me in anyway or form. I once saw a guy so fat in an emergency exit seat with fixes armrests who could not even get a seatbelt extension around him and he was so rude to the crew, yet they let him fly. He stunk the cabin cabin out and the poor people either side of him must have needed disinfecting after the flight. People should not have to endure fat people encrouching into the space they have paid for.

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Why should only fat people be able to buy a second seat? I would be happy to pay for a second seat in Economy for the extra space it would afford. The C fare is about 5 times the Y fare from LUG to LCY. The only advantage of C is the middle seat being kept free. Leg room is the same. I only drink water and rarely eat on short-hauls. So I would happily pay extra, but it seems I cannot pay for a second seat and not use it?

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I think this issue needs to be differentiated into two considerations: SIZE and WEIGHT. I dont think anyone should charge a person extra for how much he weighs, as though he were a piece of luggage. It just isnt right. If, on the other hand, he is too large (and that could mean he's built like a quarterback and not necessarily obese!) then the airline would be justified in asking him to purchase two seats, so as not to inconvenience the passenger(s) next to him. How would this be determined? Perhaps by seeing if he fits into a special molded seat at the time of check-in!

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That's quite true bombayteddy, it's not all big people who are fat, or even vice versa. I've several times thought that, as a lot of the population of the planet appears to be getting more and more obese, airlines should introduce two types of economy seating, standard and wide. They could charge more for the wide ones which you'd have to purchase if you were over a certain size. Average pax could purchase them if they wanted and have to if they were the only seats left. Not much different from charging more as the flight progressively fills. Simpler, perhaps, would be all economy seating being made a bit bigger although this would push up the cost of travel for everyone.

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Let's not forget that airlines provide a public service. If you pay, you can fly... if you can't (safely) get in to a seat on an aircraft and it clearly means the seat next door cannot be used, either upgrade or get the train!... we're all taxed too much for flying as it is....

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They should tax the ugly people off the airlines.

That was my only criticism of Easyjet when I dipped a toe in the (not unpleasant, and actually quite warm and bubbly) water flying with them last year.

Fully of unattractive t-shirted types, with some of the ladies even wearing football shirts.

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Now you're talking VK! However, I'm sure you mean those of ugly character rather than those whose faces are "visibly challenged"???

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LP - judging from my (thank God) limited experience of EasyJet, VK probably meant both!

Mind you, have you seen the average Ryanair clientele? Makes EZ look like Lufthansa Private Jet.

Simon

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PS We have a series on Sky here called "Airport" (or Airline, forget which), which is a reality programme following EZ at Liverpool and Luton. It's a few years old but it's bloody hilarious.

The funniest bits concern the passengers who try to check-in after closing and who fail to realise that the worst strategy to adopt in such circumstances is to be utterly offensive to the only people who can actually get you on the plane.....

It's the only thing worth watching on Sky. It should really be on their "Psychology Channel."

S

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I can appreciate what you say Simon, even though, thankfully, I've never had to fly Ryanair and the day I have to will be the day I hang up my flying shoes, put on my slippers and watch the world go by while enjoying a nice, "fat" cigar.

Being serious for a moment though, checking the door to door price of Ryanair, including all their charges, and comparing it with a Swiss flight to LCY (where I need to end up when flying to London), Swiss beats them hands down, not to mention a nice Senator lounge in Zurich and free refreshments at Lugano, a sandwich and drinks onboard in economy, and, if needed, free hand baggage and free checked baggage. Wow!

However, we must not wander from the subject of this post, but I feel my "fat" cigar qualifies for inclusion in this thread!

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Your "fat cigar" is almost as bad as geo's wand-blowing exploits ;)

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Not sure what that refers to VK? But I'm sure my Cohiba tastes better!

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Yellow card VK - mentioning that name from the past..

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Yes I must have been offline when that all blew up so missed what happened....

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just being his usual self then showed a little bit too much politically incorrect descriptives concenring race! Toys out of the pram, tore his tights and off he went into the blue (or pink) yonder of cyberspace - but may have reappeared in a new outfit, forgot which thread, but the postings were a sort of simillarish. We will all live..................

Have a good evening and dont eat too much!

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Cream of white asparagus soup with truffles.

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Back on topic:

http://www.timeslive.co.za/world/article495065.ece/Overweight-woman-has-to-be-flown-by-military

A Haitian woman waited 11 days at the airport in the Dominican Republic’s capital because no airline was prepared to fly the 220-kilogram passenger to the United States.

But rescue came in the form of the air force of the Caribbean country, which agreed to return Dominique Lanoise on board a military plane to the US.

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To CHARLES P - I agree with you 100%....sad to say, this is not likely to happen but one can dream!

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thought that the comment about Chardonnay from VintageKrug was hilarious. Please dont tell me that you do noy enjoy a glass of Chablis, Puligny Montrachet or St Aubin which, oops are all Chardonnay. Maybe you are a Liebframilch person. I do enjoy reading your comments but being an ABC does not suit you.

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Back in the news (did it ever go away?)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/9066658/Legal-ruling-could-see-introduction-of-airline-fat-tax.html

Good to see there were 650+ comments on the piece in less than one day.....

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