Flew on the new SQ business class seat in November from SIN-HKG return on the 777-300's and from SIN-SYD on A380.

The seat certainly is wide and service from staff was good. During the day flights between SIN-HKG, the seat only reclines to a maximum of about 25 degrees. It was very uncomfortable. It will recline to 180 degrees only if you stand up and then bring the vertical part of the seat forward! Certainly, this is fine for an overnight flight when you want to sleep.

However, for flights during the day, it is impossibly uncomfortable with the limited recline. Has anyone else had a similar experience?

CX and Emirates must be laughing.

Editors, why hasn't this been reported properly?

Continues...

ChrisFreeman: the design of the Singapore Airlines seat to which you refer has been commented upon extensively and in detail in the travel press - both business and leisure.

If you have ever flown Virgin Atlantic or Air New Zealand in their business class cabins, then you'll know that they employ a similar arrangement to Singapore's 'flipper'.

Some passengers receive this style of seat extremely warmly, as it tends to afford a flatter, longer sleeping surface within a given footprint.

Others actively avoid such seats, as they do not suit their sleeping/slumping style, which demands a greater level of seat recline, most usually being a single continuous 'while-still-seated' conversion from seat to bed.

As long as there are a significant number of passengers who prefer one arrangement over the other, then it's likely that airlines will continue to develop seats which follow one style or the other.

Cathay Pacific's longhaul business class, for example, is marked down by some because it's very narrow and lacks window-access, but marked-up because it has continuous recline. On Emirates, there are two completely different seat-pitch possibilities in their A380 J cabin - quite apart from the numerous J-seat variations across their fleet at large.

I agree that some passengers may have to try each style to learn which they personally prefer, but I can assure you that the airlines themselves know precisely what their customers think and that's what drives their decision to adopt a 'flipper' or 'slumper' format.

Likewise, the travel press discusses this issue almost every time a new seat is launched.

Continues...

You certainly have one up on me as I have never seen such criticisms expressed. Can you direct me to the edition of Business Traveller Asia Pacific where this has been discussed.

I find it difficult to believe that anyone on a day flight would find the seat comfortable.

Continues...

"SIA has gone back to basics in terms of the mechanics of the seating – it reclines electronically, but there are no massage, or lumbar support options, and it converts manually to a bed by flipping over the seat back to connect with the ledge. As with Virgin’s business class product, this means you have to get out of the bed to convert it, but I didn’t really see that as an issue."

http://www.businesstraveller.com/tried-and-tested/airlines/singapore-airlines/flight-check-singapore-airlines-a380

Singapore Airlines A380 business class

Published: 06/10/2008 - Filed under: Tried & Tested » Airlines » Features » Tried & Tested » Tried & Tested » Airlines » Singapore Airlines »

Continues...

To be fair, that article refers to having to stand up to recline the seat as not 'being an issue'. My complaint is lack of recline when seated in a normal non-sleeping position. SQ seems to be getting away with this so far without comment (and I understand that they are looking to rectify this).

In any event, I have no doubt that SQ will continue to win the J class awards. However, I'm going back to CX so at least I won't have a sore back from sitting upright!

Continues...

i guess it highly depends on your own preference since i found cx's longhaul business class very tight in the herringbone setting and would opt for sq's wide seat.

one thing to note: sq and cx both have a short-haul and long-haul business class seating. since some sin-hkg flights have onwards connection to the u.s., most of the fleet will have long haul seats (which may be less comfortable for the sin-hkg leg but is highly preferable for eg. sin-hkg-sfo).

sq has just lauched a new lie-flat business class seats (and yes, it can do z position) for short haul which i think is the best in class. in comparison, cx's short haul business class seats was last redesigned nearly 10 years ago.

Continues...

came back Business class from Brisbane a couple of weeks ago - over night from Brisbane , was asked immediately if We wanted supper or the breakfast option - I chose supper , was shocked that at breakfast was not even offered a cup of tea! (blurb in menu says they only offer one meals to allow passengers to sleep as long as possible on short flights (7.5 hours!) but not to offer teas because you have had supper tut tut SQ. I have been a great fan of SQ for decades now - this trip (All legs) have lacked the magic touch - the crew smiled a lot but not with the sincerity I remembered and enjoyed. Watch out SQ

Continues...

Thanks. I thought it was just me who was of the view that SQ's current level of service was highly overrated. Check in at Sydney and Hong Kong last month took 20 minutes because SQ were understaffed at the business class counters. Yet, SQ keeps winning awards.

I have had fantastic service in the last 12 months on CX international business from check in through to baggage collection.

Continues...

Wouldn't it be great if SQ, as a result of declining service, actually got toppled by CX the next time the awards are given out!How would that be for a kick up the rear!

Continues...

Well it was Skytrax who named Cathay Pacific Airline of the Year 2009 at the World Airline Awards 2009 ceremony...and Air Transport World named Asiana Airline of the Year 2009...Qatar got the Travel Trade Gazette Airline of the Year 2009 award, and Virgin Atlantic Cargo got the Cargo Airline of the Year 2009 award...so SQ is not winning everything! They just have good marketing spin and are trading on a long-held reputation and slight mystique. It was just OAG that named Singapore Airlines Airline of the Year 2009.

Continues...

SQ aren't the only ones with a supposedly effective 'spin machine' at their disposal. Just look at VS. But, all the spin & marketing in the world can't help you if you're a mediocre airline with mediocre food and mediocre crew. Passengers are going to wisen up pretty quickly and will abandon you in droves. I must admit, the recent negative publicity has put me off using them for my future trips to SE Asia and Oz. I think I might use Qatar or EK.

Continues...

Poor experiences on LHR-SIN-SYD return September & returning Nov.

You need to seperate the 773-ER from the 773, especially the one refurbished with Regional seating business class on the overnight from SIN - Sydney. I had to roll up a blanket to pad the top & mid cushions where the gap was when the seat was angled out. It is NOT a flat bed, & God help you if you drop anything, as you have to lie flat on the floor elbow deep underneath into the shell that is sealed from all sides to retrieve anything! The seats are too low in the cabin, noise travels, no privacy between seats, & you can hear everything 3 rows in front of you or behind the whole flight, even a newspaper being turned. It is a badly designed cabin. There is a considerable thread on this already on BT...

SQ have reduced meals so you EITHER get dinner or breakfast from SIN to all Australian routes, pretty stupid & it is putting many off. Desserts have been cut, the crews are presenting up-market ice cream, scooped from a large catering box in the galley, instead! This is causing continuing problems raised on here...They are treating Australian routes as regional, the same as SIN-HKG. This is a very grave mistake as once experienced they WONT fly this seat. I have had no explanations from the queries raised through the NSW Manager for SQ Craig, who did forward them onto Singapore. The same foodless lounges & meal standards applied on return 2 months later so these issues have not been addressed. I have raised these issues as in a different thread, with The Manager of SQ in NSW, in writing & directly. The issues were forwarded o Singapore...& no response has been received to either of us!

I have to say though with a long haul flight, the new A380 seat is excellent overall, but i wont be using SQ down to Australia from SIN due to te meal cuts & varying seats & 4 different business cabins they now run. U pay for one product you expect it to be there.

Perhaps, customers in Business take their own up market sandwiches when travelling SQ, so you can choose whether to eat or be hungry after a 9 hr flight, in the morning or evening. Perhaps when SQ see & it can be seen that customers are bringing their own food to ensure of nutrition & comfort, they will wake up.

Continues...

I just booked my ticket from LHR-SGN , and for the trip SQ want 2900£ for B777 service and 3100£ for the A380 service. But my choice was TG which only charge 2100£ . I think SQ is overpriced their product a lot and you dont get the value for the difference gap for the fare .

Continues...

I agree.

SQ have also had seat sales (The BT search engine is petty good a tool to use), & i bought a seat in July LHR-SIN SYD return, Business, for £1912!

This time before Xmas /New Year, all the Airlines appear to be charging high rates , even if you travel out of peak next year.

There will be many offers when sales slump in January, & good deals around, on most airlines. I certainly had a choice to travel in Sept return Nov on CX, MH EK EY for around £1800 return to Sydney, in offers.

I also gained the full miles enabling another one way back in Business, & earned added a VS Gold card in the process also!!

Continues...

Mark regarding your recent food service experiences from SIN to Australia with SQ are very disturbing. What--whether dinner or breakfast? What is going on here! I already comment this in an other thread that I flew in June 09 from SIN to SYD and I had both services. Alright the breakfast service consists of one croissant and jam, one slice of papaya and hot beverage which appalled me how cheap it was and the lack of choices. Now you are saying that you only get one food service for a 7-8 hours flight. What is this -- SQ moving to a low cost carrier attitude? If it so--then SQ should at least inform the transiting pax in SIN to eat their dinner or similar in the lounge before their onward flight to Australia and that they only get one food service onboard. These informations and possibilities are essential for the pax's s feeling of comfort and service expectations. I understand when a lot here are angry and felt fooled by SQ.

Now it is the food cuttings, apart from the diversities of business class seats and the untypical SQ service attitude( lack of smile, more robotic..) What is going on in SQ? Has SQ finally reached the zenith?

Continues...

Nigel, the NSW Manager for SQ, told me that there services for SIN -Australia, are now regarded as regional! Not for an overnight 8 hr flight as far as i am concerned!

Yes, one meal even if you book the cook, u get it breakfast or as you take off on the 00.30hrs down to Sydney.But they started this almost 2 yrs ago? I got off the flight very hungry & lots of hungry fellow passengers also. An un-waraneted cutback for the pitiful amount it will save, food was always one of the star elements on SQ, but no more! You will also find the SQ Lounge in Changai T3, has lots of food labels, but most has run out or they done have it there!

Continues...

It would be a pleasant change if any editors reading the above would accurately set out the current standard of SQ service in their magazines.

Continues...

Yes Chris this indeed would be helpful. BT did highlight changes to one refurbished 773 used on the 00.30hrs flight down to Sydney each day, prior to it coming into service. Varying aircraft mean on the same route, you can have the old style Raffles (747), new Business (A380/773-ER), or the "regional Business seats, 773 /A333. This seriously affects flights from SIN - SYD/ BNE/ PER/ ADL/ MEL. Completely different cabins, space, comfort & sleeping capabilities.

However, I Don't consider an overnight 8 hr flight to Australia as regional, & that configuration is as many have noted, unsuitable. I am avoiding, & would not pay a premium fare for that cabin, or ever use it down to Australia again.

Continues...

Amongst frequent flyers themselves, there's a tendency to attach a reputation to a carrier based on what's often a very narrow field of experience - a few routes, a few aircraft types. It's arguably made worse in the UK thanks to the proliferation of carriers' flagship routes which touch down in London, and which therefore generate a high proportion of UK-reported experiences of those carriers.

The fact is, however, that many of these carriers employ extremely variable service standards on their other routes Worldwide - whether that's in terms of the soft or the hard product - and yet those carriers' evangelists often seem unaware of this.

So, quite apart from the practical implications of a single publication having the space to cover all the different service standards of even the main carriers on each of their routes, you also have a situation where a large contingent of the readership wouldn't actually be all that keen on having their loyalties challenged, nor reading about routes they rarely, if ever, patronise.

Add all that together and a 'Singapore Expose' doesn't strike me as a particularly commercial proposition.

That said, I personally think that the 'blind' reporting of (regularly unwarranted) reputations is fairly confined to the mainstream, non-specialist press. It seems to me that, for the most part, publications like BT are reasonably up-front in terms of reporting the service standards as they relate to a particular route - without implicit or explicit suggestion that it's possible to extrapolate those service standards network-wide. Indeed, they're the ones most likely to break news like (or remind of) the fact that SQ's MAN-SIN service will no longer be non-stop from March 28 2010.

It must also be remembered, quite apart from frequent flyers' own tendencies to laud, say, SQ based on quite limited experience of their routes, that flyers appreciate very different things. Once again, I was discussing with a friend the Virgin/NZ flipper seat the other night, in comparison to other carriers' fully-reclining versions. He's absolutely of the opinion that the VS/NZ product suits his preferences perfectly. I'm absolutely of the opinion that it does not suit mine. We're both quite right, of course.

So, since SQ's flights between SIN and Oz are often quite short overnighters, perhaps they have plenty of passenger research to suggest that a single meal service is appreciated to afford the greatest amount of sleep - like British Airways' Sleeper Service.

Or, perhaps, it is indeed simple cost-cutting.

What's incontrovertible is that Singapore Airlines themselves make no mention of some of their hard and soft product variations in any of their own publications - online or in hard copy. There again, why would they? As many have posted here, they compare unfavourably to their headline-grabbing flagship products.

That then is one of the significant benefits of this forum and others like it; not to bash a carrier, not to blindly laud one, but to extend the terms of reference of the publication and allow travellers on a wide number of routes to impart their experience. If individuals do so regularly and consistently, then other readers can effectively learn about other posters' likes, dislikes, demands and needs, and align them with their own. Ultimately then, we can read their posts and instinctively know whether we personally are likely to react and respond similarly - and hopefully avoid the missed expectations like those experienced above.

Now, none of that's to say that BT and others couldn't expand their route coverage, nor even that they couldn't commission a generic feature into at least hard product variations. I'd almost guarantee, however, that some of the carriers that would come out 'best' in such a comparison in terms of consistency, would be ones that often generate some of the most vehement negative postings here.

You can't please 'em all!

Continues...

Continentalclub,

what an excellent well thought out post. Perhaps others will take note and apply some of your sound logic before they comment on the posts of other contributors.

Safe travels everyone,

Jonathan

Continues...

Just had first hand experience of this thread. Putting on old - 2 generation ago Raffles seats - and calling it business is unworthy of SQ. What they have is a premium economy product which those of us unfortunate to have been booked on SQ 231/232 end up with, yet paying business fare. But it also the little things which regular SQers now see missing - no satay appetiser, desserts which are ice cream, no nuts with predinner cocktail unless asked for, and even the attention to detail of FAs knowing your name is beginning to disappear. SQ need to remember the phrase which many US airlines use when the plane has landed - thanking one for your custom in the knowledge that there are a choice of carriers. Regarding the food, all they have to do is rephrase their menu - instead of making it an "or" selection, they just have to say "you may wish to choose a meal or breakfast depending on how much uninterrupted time you want on the flight". Most seem to eat in the Silver Kris lounge before boarding and there was plenty both in quantity and choice - it is probably all about brand and how it is presented

Continues...

As an LPPS Krisflyer I can remember the days when SQ underpromised and overdelivered. Now it's very much the other way round with overpromise and underdelivery. Seats are a matter of pot luck with so many variations particularly of business class seats that you really don't know what you are buying. Catering has been cut for years with things being reduced little by little, less juice with breakfasts, fewer flights with satay, salads reduced in size and quality and if you don't eat ice cream, no dessert whatever. Turning services from SIN to AUS into regional services is just a bad joke and it is a major cutback on all fronts.

At the same time fares have risen way beyond what is realistic in a time of global recession. Some of the new hard product - the seats in C on the A380 and the 77W are poor, far too wide to sit in comfortably are awful - if imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, then no other airline has introduced anything remotely similar which tells a story. Krisworld is improved but I've always thought that was more use to the masses in Y than anyone else.

I think SQ is now a falling star, others are far better but their corporate arrogance would never allow them to see it. I fly with them less and less. As someone who achieved LPPS status, you would think they might ask why but they never have. In some ways, that says it all.

Continues...

The SIN - SYD 747 has been replaced by an older 777-200ER!

Just looking to book down to Sydney into Feb/March, there is now one only A380 service a day, 1 x 773-ER (both with the 1-2-1 Business cabin), now also a refurbed 773 with regional seating, & an old 772 with Raffles class seating! Sneaky. Whats going on SQ?

I wont be booking when their are 3 differently dated cabins, with 4 different aircraft one one route...

Continues...

Looking today at the SQ services (In peak season) from SIN-SYD, it seems they have removed one aircraft a day now!

The 747 has disappeared, but so has the A380 on certain days. On say Feb 14th 2010, there is only one 777-300ER, with the "new" business cabin & seats, the other 773 & older 772-ER have either the "Regional/old Raffles seats!

Clearly booking with SQ is a lottery now, cabins, seating & different services.

Sad to say, I am not going to book a flight on a worldwide flight, where the cabin changes, the seats are highly variable, & in fact, SQ are not being open & honest about this. They continue to sell tickets, when you are buying into a business/First travel experience, that simply wont be on yr flight!

Perhaps BT could elicit some response from SQ on what why how when these un-announced changes are implimented?

In my view, this relegates SQ from its world class standard of the past...

Continues...

Business Traveller replies:

We've just published a detailed news piece which should clarify this situation. To read this please visit:

http://www.businesstraveller.com/sia-upgrades-singapore-sydney-flights

Continues...

Many Thanks BT, on the ball & adds much clarity.

However, having travelled in the 773 refurbished cabin in Sept 09, I would have to say it was not only a vast change to the ne cabins, but not as comfortable or suitable for overnight trips. The older Raffles was more suitable with softer higher seating, less noise, a better cabin design.

I would not choose to travel on their 777-300 services overnight. I also think their offer of only one meal in 7-8 hrs to Sydney (Dinner or breakfast) is very poor, a minor cost saving to them, but has a great impact on their food standards, & reputation. Its the rare time i have left a flight hungry, having had one meal in the 9 hrs i was aboard!

Continues...

Thanks BT.

Now, do an article comparing the overall QUALITY of SQ business class on the SYD-SIN route. Look at some of the above posts. There is more than confusion. It is more of a mutiny. What on earth is going on?

Continues...

Where did this one meal thing come from? If you choose a flight departing any time before c.11pm, you get 2 meals, that includes the flagship mid-evening SIN-SYD/MEL/BNE flights, and all of the daytime returning flights into SIN. The only "one meal flights" are the ones that depart at or after midnight, where they assume you've eaten in the lounge or on your connecting flight, and most probably want to sleep - what, do all of you normally have two meals between the hours of midnight and 7am?! It's no different to BA's sleeper service flights, or most airlines' overnight flights between SE Asia and Japan or Korea

Continues...

when I posted my original message about the "one meal" - it was really the fact that because I had chosen supper I was not even offered a cup of tea before landing - I wasn't that bothered about something to eat but thought it was totally naff not to offer a beverage even - Have last week had a trip to India on Jet Airways , flight was only 8 hours (one hour less than Syd- SIN) was in economy, had two FANTASTIC hot meals and GENUINELY friendly staff - the way to go!

Continues...

It has been the policy of SQ for the last 2 yrs. I made a formal written complaint to SQ, & ended having a chat with the SQ Manager for NSW, Australia, in October.

He indicated these changes ahead for the 777's but did say the policy of one meal on Australian overnight routings had been there for 2 years which it has. SQ on board chatting to them, also told me it was really seen as regional service by the crews, & in terms of supplies!

Continues...

Given that most of the passengers on SQ services from SIN to AUS are connecting and many of them from Europe, the idea of a regional service is in my view misguided, you are not travelling for 7.5 hours but more like 24. Downgrading the AUS services leads to a poor overall impression of the route when you expect consistency throughout which is what others provide. Of course as usual SQ will know best and I'll just spend more and more of my money with others.

Continues...

While the SQ internally classifies its service as being "regional", I'm not sure what everyone is complaining about. The "regional" C seat is a normal lie flat wedgie seat and no worse than the Spacebed (offered to FRA, JFK, NRT and LAX) or any competitor offering between SE Asia and Australia, with the exception of a small handful of QF/BA flights with fully flat beds. By this definition of regional, LH is only a regional airline as it doesn't offer fully flat beds anywhere. Are there any other examples of inferior service vs other SQ flights? Same lounge, same IFE, same champagne, same (measly) amenity kit... anything else different?

As for "one meal flights", 3 out of the 4 SIN-SYD flights and *all* 4 of the return SYD-SIN flights serve two meals, so I'm not sure what the problem is? Bottom line: if you want two meals, don't choose a midnight departure, when the majority of your fellow passengers would rather sleep

Continues...

Hi everyone !!

There are other airlines which offer full flat bed between SEA and Australia/NewZealand--CX, VS, NZ and even only a small player in this area--but has a good impact as it offers a full flat bed--GA ! So if you consider the Middle Eastern carriers which serves Middle East and Australia directly or with a stop--which offer also superior full flat beds like EY, EK and soon QR. So there is still a handful of other carriers beside BA/QF.

Continues...

My redemption zone map tells me HKG is not in SE Asia, but hey, I can see some people wanting to fly SYD-AKL-HKG-SIN to get a flat bed and four meals...

When did EK start offering flat beds on anything other than the A380?

Continues...

I am referring to the A380 of EK as offering full flat beds. As far as I know there is no plans on the side of EK to refurbish existing aircrafts to full flat bed.

This will be a good possibility for BT staffs to research, if EK is planning such refurbishments in the future.

Continues...

I completely agree with Chris Freeman's comments concerning the limited recline of the New Business Class seats. Yes, very spacious and wide, but it's really only good in 2 positions - upright and fully horizontal. There's no in-between for relaxation, like reading or watching TV. I flew the A380 from Singapore to Paris in November, and my humble opinion regarding the seat's shortcomings was shared by a couple who held PPS Solitaire status (i.e. SQ's most frequent F/J class travellers). I prefer the Boeing 747's Business Class Spacebeds. In fact, the old Ultimo seats on the un-refurbished Boeing 777-300 aircraft are even more comfortable.

Continues...

Actually, this post is regarding SQ's First Class...I flew MEL-SIN on SQ238, an older, unrefurbished B777-300. The other 2 flights are an A380, and a B777-300ER, both with diffferent F Class products. My F class seat had very poor recline, and the leg/foot rest didn't even come up very far. It wasn't much better than the Ultimo seats in Business. Fantastic legroom (64" pitch), however. Why is SQ operating 3 different types of F and J class on this route, and charging the same fare for different products? Especially glaring when comparing F class seat on the 777-300 ER with the 777-300. Of course, you pay a premium for Suites on the A380, but that's just crazy.

Continues...

all B777-300 are due to be retrofitted with same first class seats as those in B777-300ER and new regional business seats (lie flat) as those in A330-300.

Continues...

The regional 773 /A333 C seats are Not lie flat!

The 1st class seats were fitted with the business seats from the 773-ER /A380. I travelled on this refurbed old noisy 773, in Sept 09. As posted already by various readers from various routes to Australia, the cabin is low set, seats barely above yr head, no privacy & space is badly used. The seats are angled, with a large gap in between the leather cushions of the lower & middle...(I had to stuff a blanket in-between them), & you hear everyone from rows ahead & behind, as there are no sound breaks, or privacy, in the whole cabin of C class. I could put my fist between the cushion & side of the seat the gaps are so large sidewards also.There is a huge space wasted. The seat shell, if you drop anything through the seat very possible with the gaps between the cushions, you will have to move yr fellow passenger next to you, lie as flat on the floor as you can from the front, & drag you arm into the base of the shell, as you can reach it any other way. Staff were fishing out dropped items of several people, with serving tongues!

The diagonal entry to the forward of the cabin, caused several passengers to bang their shoulders or knees throughout the flight, trying to pass through with no visibility. Step once to the left then to the right to get through! Before we took off, one stewardess was knocked flat by another passenger walking through & literally hit the floor on her back!

The cabin & changes are to increase Business capacity on the route, & SQ have removed one flight a day from the route (747, also there were 2 A380's at one stage a day).

I don't have a problem from SIN -HKG with this seat, not on an 8 hr overnight flight where the seat is awkward, cabin noisy & simply for cost reasons, they remove one meal. Everyone in the full cabin ate dinner, 5 people all made complaints, & double this when we left delayed in approach after 9.5 hrs, without a 2nd meal! Several Business passengers were going to the airport cafe to eat breakfast

I wont be flying SQ down to Sydney, it is a lottery, & i am sorry but an unsuitable C class cabin & simply not worth paying for. This is not comparing to the "New business" seat or cabin, but even to old the Raffles. Take yr own sandwiches for dinner or breakfast, otherwise you will go hungry!

Continues...

Maybe BT Asia could carry out a survey/review to determine which airline offers the best J Class product between SIN and Oz/NZ?

Continues...

The issue with only one meal on overnight flights is not the volume of food as far as I am concerned, its just that one may choose the breakfast but have to put up with the clatter of others eating supper and vice versa which really defeats the argument of extra sleep time. Not being even offered a cup of tea / coffee in the morning is appalling. I wonder ? Do econ class pax get 2 meals ? or just a choice of one or the other ?

Continues...

Tends to be a continental offering whisked through in 30 minutes, barely an hr before landing, so should not make so much difference, but hard luck if you took yr meal the night before as you wont be offered one! Also, some passengers will want to at, especially if they have slept for 5 hrs plus, & it begining a new day. It is approx 11am when you land in Sydney...

Considering some Airlines spend as a budget £4.50 for a meal for a business passenger, it is certainly not for us this withdrawl.

Continues...

Cathay ex SIN D class fare via HKG is not a bad option if it is a flat bed, a good dinner (or 2) and breakfast that appeals. 777-200 with regional business class ex SIN at 18.30. Long haul 330 with flat bed ex HKG 23.55 into SYD at 12.05 +1. About an hour later than SQ evening flight ex SIN

Continues...

EK now offer flat beds in Business Class on all flights ex SYD.

As mentioned in previous posts, the A380 is configured with lie-flat seats in Business Class as is the B777-300ER which operates on the Dubai-Bangkok-Sydney-Christchurch rtn route as well as on the B777-200LR which operates the new third daily (direct) service between Dubai/Sydney.

Continues...

Recently flew DXB-LGW in F Class on EK. Found the food disappointing. Couldn't complain about the caviar and the Moet but the entree was no better than a glorified microwaved M&S dinner. Also, EK seem to have scaled down: no second meal was offered in F class even though the arrival time would have made a light dinner appropriate. Seat and suite were comfortable though.

Continues...

there seems to be some confusion regarding the meaning of lie-flat seats: which include both flat bed (180) and angled lie flat. As far as I know all new CX long haul feature flat bed (herringbone) and EK with angled lie flat (except for a380 which is flat bed).

Continues...

But this post is not about finding a flat bed on another Airline, its about declining services on SQ down to Australia, the varying cabins, unclear as to what you buy, pay for, but actually experience. It seriously affects their ranking as a 5 Star Airline, with so many post on here in the last yr, from many SIN-Australia route travellers.

Continues...

We have just published a full and exclusive report on the inconsistencies in business class products offered by Asian airlines on regional routes, written by our consumer editor Alex McWhirter. This can be read at:

http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/special-report-business-class-on-asian-airlines

Continues...

Singapore Airlines won Airline of the Year 2009 from OAG Airlines Industry. Know your facts mate. SQ also won best first class and best first class catering from Skytrax.

Continues...

Which Business or First Class cabin might that be, as they have 4 different versions?!!!

Just off the SQ flight in from Dubai to SIN Business class, older 777-300, but old regional seating. Flying to Sydney on the refurbished 777-300 with new regional seating again (Unfortunately) tomrw overnight. The A380 & 773-ER have the new seats, but 1st on the refurbished 773, are the same as business on the A380.then there is the old Raffles class style on the 747 & 772-ER!

Alex's BT article, & the one coming up on this aspect of SQ's cabin services, on the same routes, means that SQ has at least 4 different cabins, & in the future will be classifying some service SIN - Australia as Regional, & the cabins will reflect that!

You simply don't know what product you are buying into these days....such a shame, though the welcoming friendly crew, always remembering your name, & the generally excellent foods & the service of the F & B, remain wonderful...

Continues...

This 4 different types of cabins--do not make premium pax happy -- but the opposite-- they will prefer to choose another airline--or take the time and nerves to find out which aircraft will be used on that specific flight segment( I believe only SQ fans will do this ).

For me this is definitely a negative factor to vote for and choose SQ to be the best in the industry. This inconsistency is not typical SQ---but I believe the time has changed for SQ and sadly it is more in a negative aspect..

Continues...

Took the SQ older 773 business from DXB - SIN ast week. The seat was not the old Raffles seat, but a cradle fabric seat. Still it was comfortable, height of the seats private, food service was dinner then breakfast next day. All together an old aircraft n style of cabin, but all fine for the 7 hr flight.

2 days later the "Dreaded" refurbished 773 from SIN -SYD, the 00.30hrs SQ231. I stand by my comments made begining of this thread. Lounge was sparse for food, champagne or wine has to be asked for it is not freely available. No desserts, broken coffee machines, & some stale breads, & newspapers from friday..this was sunday 11pm.

That 773 they use, the L engine is like a road drill still. 2 seats in front of engines in C, the windows vibrate, you cannot hear announcements or speak to the person next to you. Cabin is too low set, everyone's head above the seat back, no shell of privacy, or quietness that this creates. Go to sleep n the person next to you breathes right into your face, there is no divider between the seats even when in the angled sleeping state. The bottom & middle cushion are fine to cradle position, but to sleep a big gap appears & the bar catches you in yr hip, you slide down also through the night. I could put a hand sidewards each gap in the side of the cushion to the shell of the seat, so drop anything n you cant retrieve it as the seat is sealed at each side & low at the front. Staff had to use a coat hanger again to get things out for passengers!

The one meal one course again is very annoying, if you take it on take off OR have yr meal morning. This flight can be 9 hrs! SQ have really lost the plot on routes down to Australia. Seems with the new schedules, they have now Regionalised their routes in a set business plan i was told about last September.

I would no longer recommend them from SIN down to Australia, as others on here to BNE, MEL, ADL have also commented. The cut backs & fraying at the edges, downgrading of aircraft & of cabins & service is no longer acceptable, & it is systemic & on going from the 8 flights i have taken in the last yr. I am finished with SQ.

Continues...

PLS link to the other thread on SQ as the latest BT comments from the forum, as they are directly related.

Continues...

I also noticed the removal of some of the in-flight catering on my recent biz class return from SYD, I was quite disappointed to see the familiar Satay was gone! And adding to my growing annoyance towards SQ, who have become exceptionally arrogant of late, they have also doubled the miles needed if you want to upgrade from the UK. The reason for this is because the 773-ER and A380 provide a better onboard product than the old spacebed on the 747. While that may be the case, I am not sure it warrants doubling of the miles. And now, since the 747 does not even service the UK, any UK Krisflyer members who wish to redeem miles for upgrade now have to use twice the amount of miles for the privalege. Exactly why SQ rewardss its loyal pax in this way has made me question my loyalty totally and start looking elsewhere for a new carrier.

Continues...

Aviationfan Until late March one way around the higher mileage redemption was to board your SQ flight in MAN because an older version B777 was being used (so normal miles were needed).

But that option is no longer available now that the MAN-SIN service was recently upgraded to a B777-300ER.

Continues...

Yes, I've tried this trick once. Shame it is no longer available. But the sums don't add up. E.g. You can purchase/redeem miles for a one way business class ticket from LON-SIN for only 120,000 miles. But to upgrade from a full fare economy ticket one way it is now 90,000 miles instead of only 45,000 last year. Very disappointed that I need to fly double the amount for the same reward.

Continues...

SQ would'nt allow SA redemptions on its new Business cabin, on the A380 /773-ER for some time now.

As Alex fesatured in his article, & post that the update for SQ, flights SIN-SYD are being changed round. The 747 has been removed, & the overnight flight a refurbished 773, with regional seating, switched to the morning service. This means 3/4 flights to Sydney now they will not redeem ANY seats in the BMI DC program. Having ditched both now in terms of redemptions, they lost my custom & loyalty. Neither would i pay the current fares of $4,500 return to use the new Business cabins from LHR-SYD, when the same fare was £1,900 last year.

The niggling cut backs, (sparse food in lounges, one meal on an 8 hr flight, no desserts, no starters, their "regional "Angle seats definition of SIN -Australia flights etc), SQ have had their day as far as i am concerned. Many choices around, & other Airlines that are not being so mean in cutting small but highly noticeable & annoying services on board.

Continues...

I very much agree Marcus, and ironically, SQ double the amount of miles needed for redemption on many sectors now due to "a better onboard product" but yet will still sell uniform J-class fares where you may end up with the lesser onboard product across the differently configured aircrafts. Makes no sense. If they can differentiate in Krisflyer miles between the onboard 747 J-class seat and the onboard A380 J-class seat then why not adopt this philosophy to the pricing???

Continues...

Agree with Marcus and Aviationfan.

SQ must be getting a little worried as they just sent an e-mail offering me PPS renewal if I spend SGD10K by the end of May. Have declined and will probably drop to SA Silver.

It's a pity as I was a loyal SQ pax for 13 years - Solitaire PPS and I really thought that they were the best. But cut backs on catering in the air, odd seating patterns on aircraft, lounges were you have to ask for catering and drinks and the worst FF program, 3 years expiry of miles, double miles to claim rewards in J or F on A380 or upgraded 777, which just opeate all of the flights out of Mel and Syd.

I am now a firm OW pax and enjoy QF, their lounges are great and the A380 is a really nice aircraft. The FF progam has no milage expiry and their premium desk for Platinum FF in Aust is great, nothing is too much trouble.

I really think SQ have been a little arrogant and ahve let their guard down and are paying the price.

Continues...

Completely agree with all above!

SQ have chosen not to listen, many customers are getting very annoyed at these small differences, cuts, with also a lack of honesty about them happening or being made. They promote still, but what you get is inconsistent & frankly not worth the current fares they are asking for. We see this with BA, TG often on here & it is starting with EK also... There are plenty Airlines out their, all chasing the BT & leisure custom, & they are really trying to lessen their FF liabilities, all Airlines have done the same in the last few years with their programs.

I flew TG down to Sydney last eve from BKK, on a really great new A346. Same problems their as SQ no food in lounges, & in fact of the 2 cabins Business class on the overnight flight, approx 60 seats, no more than 20 were taken, 2 /8 in First!

Cabin was great food & service was also superb, but the ripped seats, like the Airline as a whole, shows, like SQ, fraying round the edges.

Those Airlines that cease to listen to their customers, & make cutbacks as BA & SQ have, are shedding loyalty, & simply there are too many Airlines with too many seats, chasing too few of us to sit in them. It will be, & is , their loss now, but the future...? All depends on their attitude...

Continues...

100% agree! I'm sure that in fact most of the "dayflyer" don't like this seats. I even don't like it for longhaul ZRH-SIN etc.

Continues...

SQ still have restrictions on allowing miles to be redeemed on A380 or 777-300ER flights /the new business cabins. It means it is almost impossible to get a reward seat out of LHR or from SIN to Sydney for eg, as most services have now been changed to the new cabins (With BMI D.Club for eg). The older aircraft remain accessible for miles mostly on the 777-200ER's, out of Amsterdam for eg.

I know the demand for Amsterdam isn't great, especially with Emirates now making daily flights taking business to The Far East & Australia. However, it is surely time they upgraded this old aircraft & seating on this route? It would be more fitting on the Antiques Roadshow!

Continues...

I guess the reason that the Amsterdam product (ie the B777-200ER) hasn't been upgraded is because SIA's newest planes (ie the A380 and B777-300ER) are not only much larger but they also come with first class seating.

So I guess at the present time SIA must be questioning whether or not it could profitably fill a larger plane, bearing in mind the Dutch home market is limited in scope.

A further consideration is that there isn't the same demand for first class seating ex-Amsterdam as there is out of, say, London, Frankfurt or Paris.

Continues...

Sure, I accept there is no 1st demand on this route from Amsterdam- they feel...yet Emirates have recently started a 777 which is proving very successful including First from Amsterdam. Clearly you have to connect but i know several colleagues who started to fly 1st to Singapore with them.

Also, 80% of KLM's business is connecting passengers to other flights from Europe. There is an enormous loyalty of Southern & Northern Europe customers from other countries, who choose to travel via AMS. So, perhaps the Dutch small market is not the only source of custom...

AMS has far fewer Airlines than LHR towards The Far East, & KLM offers only Business in the premium market. They may well be surprised if they ran such a flight at the demand. However, the C cabin needs to be updated, i personally wouldn't pay for his old dated cabin,you may as well fly some lesser quality Airline(China Airlines, Korean, Malaysian, Eva!) & cost, & have the same dated cabin, for up to 50% less, or fly First for the same.

Continues...

I honestly agree with the critics of SQ. SQ has been -regardless of route or time of day- reducing its service from check-in to arrival and in-flight. It was gradually but it is a process. I am sure SQ things they can get away with it. I also agree that different PAX have different tastes, experiences and expectations. I have decided to avoid SQ whenever possible as I deem it overrated and overpriced and very arrogant as is indicated by unanswered feedback letters/emails etc. I strongly believe that voting with your feet and changing carriers is the only way left for a PAX.

Continues...

I agree cbroo, having been a loyal customer for over 10 years 2009 was definitely my last flight with SQ - LHR-SYD and back was noticeably poorer. TG is over £1000 cheaper for the same trip and as SQ service is now no better Thai have got my business!

Continues...

I have just read through some posts and I can sense all this confusion in relation to the several types of business class products Singapore Airlines is offering for their Singapore-Sydney flight sector.

I am due to fly on a Singapore-Sydney flight next February - the plane's a 777-300 and I had a look at the seating configuration and it's 2-2-2.

Which business product is this - is it the new one as in the A380/773ER, the new medium-haul one in the A330, or the really old one?

Thanks.

Continues...

The 777-300 features a refurbished cabin with similar (ie angled lie-flat seating) as found on the newer A330 aircraft. Business class seating on the A380/777-300ER is fully lie-flat and disposed in a more spacious 2-2 layout.

For the best business class product on this route opt for the services which are rostered for an A380. At the time of writing, two of SIA’s four daily flights between Singapore and Sydney are operated by the super jumbo.

Business Traveller

Continues...

Just came back on SQ doing SYD-SIN-HKG. The service is much improved since I started this thread back in December 2009.

However, two things caught my attention. First, the business class (silver) lounge at HKG does NOT have toilets inside. This is odd given that HKG is the busiest city for SQ outside SIN. Second, on the midnight flight from SIN-SYD on the A380 last week I was told that I could have either a supper now or breakfast in the morning, but not both! It is not the way to impress the customers and I am surprised that SQ does not understand this.

Overall, I found SQ much improved.

Continues...

Chris, this "one meal only" policy has been in vogue with SQ on the Australia flights for some time. It has caused quite a storm of disapproval from J travellers in Australia and is definitely costing SQ business. Some previous SQ loyalists are now flying QF, BA or EK on this route for this very reason.

SQ has come up with some weak justification of saying they are trying to maximise pax sleep time (the flights from SIN to the east coast of Australia are in the 7-8 hour range - similar to UK-US translantic) but it is really just penny-pinching - you can have dinner, or you can have breakfast - but not both! Ridiculous.

Continues...

I agree it is ridiculous when SQ have made such a conscious effort to improve customer service onboard. I cannot understand why SQ allow these minor issues to cause angst among its passengers.

Continues...

I just came back from Singapore on QF010, supper ex Singapore - really nice meal, and a continental breakfast into Melbourne, this was served as the pax woke up. I have not used SQ for several years as I got tired of their penny pinching with F&B offerings in J class.

Continues...

I haven't seen any signs of SQ attemtping to improve customer service on board and agree with others, it's penny pinching at every turn. They rely very much on the hard product as a sales pitch and think people don't notice the rest. As I've never been a fan of the current J seats and I don't tend to watch IFE the soft product really does come under scrutiny.

In both F & J (can't comment on Y) the soft product has been in decline for several years on an incremental basis so that you almost don't notice but if you could take a snapshot and compare it over periods of a couple of years at a time over the last ten years you would get quite a shock.

I now fly SQ when they are the most convenient option and there isn't another carrier I prefer more (QR, QF, EK, EY, TG and a few more) on the route at the time I need.

Continues...

PPS - as said above I fully agree. This blog is almost a validation of my impression over the past 7 years and I am unhappy that it is not me but truly SQ.
I just flew into HK on CX and in talking to colleagues on the flight they all agreed that SQ is going down in service (including taking PPS priviledges away from a colleague who was PPS for years and years and missed requalifying (once!).

Continues...

It is very hard to beat CX 'J' class. My first choice. CX needs to do more in the publicity war.

Continues...

Agree with all of the previous posts regarding SQ's arrogance and declining standards, while charging fares which are far in excess of its competitors. Unlike most of my esteemed bloggers here, I don't like the 34" wide seats on the A380 and B777-300ER, as they do not offer any sort of recline position for movie-watching, reading, etc. It's either upright or horizontal, with little to no in-between. Much prefer the new medium-haul model found on the refurbished 777-300 and new A330 craft. I even slept better on that than its big brother!

As for food, not only does SQ so obviously penny-pinch in offering a choice of either supper OR breakfast (but not both) on overnight flights, esp between SIN and Australia, but its food has never been that special to begin with. Especially galling when one is paying for a J class ticket. Their excuse about allowing passengers more sleeping time is hollow, as some travellers like me hardly sleep at all, and am perfectly happy to eat both meals.

Recently flew J class on MEL-BKK on SQ (via SIN of course) and back on TG. In every aspect (seat comfort, food, presentation and service), TG surpassed SQ. Therefore, unless I absolutely have to fly via Changi, or to visit Singapore, I will most almost certainly fly TG hereafter, as my travel is primarily for leisure, and TG's fares are far better value than SQ's. My next choice would be CX, whose new business class I look forward to sampling later this year. TG is the unsung hero!

Continues...

I did fly SIN-NRT business on SQ's 777- very dirty plane! The so called wide seats were worn out..screen was dirty, very poor food . I am a frequent traveller of Lufthansa, there seats and service and food is MUCH better in business class compared to singapore. How they get 5 stars in skytrax I don't understand.
The ANA 777-300 new business seats are also MUCH better then SQ - and their service food is significantly superior.
I try to avoid SQ as much as possible- it's a marketing trap for not seasoned travellers. My top 3 are LH, ANA and CX...and not to forget SAA- who have excellent seats and a no frill friendly service.

Continues...

toonvanderheyden: I am some what surprised by your feedback on SQ Biz class service. I travel on it frequently and always find their cabin service from very good to excellent. Remember I am from Hong Kong and I am Cathay's top tier flyer and I tend to compare these two 5-star airlines in the world and they are on par with each others. Sometime I even feel SQ is one notch better in Business and Cathay is better in First.

I also travel on LH and NH quite often. LH Biz in my humble Asian opinion is NOT in the same league as CX or SQ, while NH is very nice and attentive but the style is not international enough for my global taste.

Anyhow it is good to hear even the best airline has a off day and you were unfortunately part of that experience.

I am sure your confident with Singapore Airlines will restore if you travel on SQ again,

One Singapore swallow does not make a summer!

Continues...

FlyingChinaman: Thanks for your comments. I will give it another try, hopefully next time a better sq exprience aligning to the confidence you have in them. PLease from your end try LH new first class- its a wonderfull experience ;a seperate bed ( not a reclining chair but real bed and matress!) next to a fantastic reclining chair . Its available on their 380- and now gradually on 747's.
NH pls try again they changed a lot lately in their new 777- to Fra, LHR and JFK from NRT.

Continues...

Against my better judgement I recently travelled from Melbourne to Singapore on SQ, afternoon dep, old 747, seats grubby and catering was very poor. Unfortunately SQ treat the Aussie/Sin run as a regional service. They really do need to look at their F&B, the food selection is poor and the wine list is very average, the Aussie red served was on special in our local discount store for $10.00 a bottle.

Continues...

toonvanderheyden:

I thank you for having enough trust in me for giving SQ another try. No doubt It is a premium airline alongside with Cathay as I would fly on the same day on CX and SQ and I get a very similar refined experience. Also get the same the thing SIN-LHR route with their A380's.

I know other airlines have improved their in-flight service but it is the overall pitcure (air/ground) experience where CX and SQ would win over the others. I recently noticed the wine celler in SIN SQ First lounge stocks few top quality wines than it used to. I guess ALL airlines are quitely cutting back on their spending due to the escalating oil prices in the past 12 months!

I would very much like to take up your suggestion (actually I enjoyed LH First quite a lot especially the Frankfurt First Class terminal) of their new FIRST. I think it is a better and more open approach than the SQ Suite where one is stowed inside a cubicle!!!

ausline: I am sorry that you are not benefiting on betterSQ hardware product as you live in Australia. It must a commercial decision as I read sometime back that the Kangaroo route is not a high-yield fare route in term of distance for the operating airlines. It seem SQ is concentrating on their more lucrative routes such as SIN-JFK, SIN-LHR and SIN-HKG-SFO.

Nice travel!

Continues...

I think one of the problems on the SIN to AUS routes is that SIA have decided to classify them as regional routes. The reality is that many people are travelling from Europe and I know I do not take kindly to a downgraded service between SIN and AUS particularly to the east coast where the flying times are still around 7-8 hours which is more that crossing the north atlantic from LHR. No one else downgrades the service so obviously, CX don't offer first and MH don't offer it on all services but the service is consistent with that offered from Europe.

Update: the website is still awful! I'm so glad that my title can be King rather than Mr but of course I can't make a booking at all so it doesn't matter! They must get a lot of call for the title King!!!

Continues...

Just flew to Rome on Malaysia from Sydney. Service is always good. Granted, the business class seats aren't as good as SQ and CX and they haven't managed to fix the hot water in their Business Class Lounge in KL in 12 months, it still represents very good value for money. They certainly look after their passengers. Will fly them again and again.

Continues...

Dear all,
I would say that the food in SQ dated last year and the previous year was bad as they outsourced. Honestly, I had been dramatic improvement in the food they delivered. At least the food is less salty and oily. Regarding F & B issue in Australia, its government has enforced one of the strictest regulation over there. Even they don't permit freshly squeezed orange juice with pulps to be catered on board. And all the food that you received from overseas station other than Singapore were provided and catered by the overseas airport catering. The service that they have provided on board will be constantly checked and audited. There are no preferential treatment on routes. They are focusing on certain routes for a healthy growth of business. Certain aircraft are not used as overseas government are protecting their trade and do not allow the newer aircrafts in. And it all depend on each airports' aerobridge. There are some airports facilities limitation each station. Its also involves government policies in each countries and the taxes and surcharges and other extras they pay everyday. (E.g. Euro- go green environmentally friendly fuel surcharge)
Imagine, if SQ provides A380 and B777-300ER to all their passengers in all stations, many airlines would lost their monopoly and business and go into serious bankruptcy. Governments have involvement in their national carriers. They would not want that to happen and they delay other country's carrier before they could launch their products. Please do bear that in mind. Thanks.

Continues...

ValentineTay:
Your last post makes no sense! Blaiming the lack of service and the lack of appropriate hardware on foreign caterers and governments is just not true.
Most of the stations SQ flies to are having one or more of the international service providers / flight kitchen and these can do anything an airline want anywhere they are at the same standard. It is a matter of ordering and paying for it! And it is a matter of wanting to enforce quality standards. SQ seems -and the many posts in this blog show that clearly- to have lost its focuson quality and consitency of that quality in lieu of short term monetary gains or lack of management attention. As for the government being involved in airlines? The main markets are the EU( LHR, FRA), North America (LOS,SFO,ATL,JFK) name one airline in these markets that is government controlled. SQ provides A380 to ZRH, did Swiss go into bankruptcy? No their yield, profit and seatmiles are constantly going up!
So, I agree they focus on certain routes for "healthy" growth, ie. yes, they are putting profit for the shareholder before a consistent quality product. Others seem to have a better approach and from where I stand the latter is more sustainablewith high-yielding customers then the approach and attitude of SQ.

Continues...

@ValentineTay When an airline outsources services e.g. catering they specify exactly what they want and that's what they get. SIA are known to be one of the most exacting companies where this is concerned so if poor quality food is being delivered it's because they are specifying that this is what they want.

Australia quite rightly has quarantine control on the import of food stuffs. That does not mean that fresh orange juice may not be served on services to Australia only that he residue must be destroyed on arrival which it would be no matter where the destination was. A new supply which meets the very high standards of Australia is available for return flights.

Governments may protect their national carriers to a point but that is only in terms of volume not product. For instance, to focus on Australia again in terms of seats (capacity is not restricted between SIN and Australia) and the very variable offering on SIA to SYD, the Australian government do not interfere with this at all. The mixed and inconsistent offering of SIA is their own doing and fault. No where else in the world is a 7.5 hour service branded as regional except by SIA on these routes. Their service can be good or it can be abysmal.

Before you become an apologist for SIA perhaps you should do a little more research and gather some knowledge and facts. Those of us who have travelled with SIA for many years now, in the main see the company as a falling star. That is not being stopped and the snipping at the edges of service in the premium cabins is annoying in a world where their fares keep on rising. First class is now about as good as business class was ten years ago, business class is like other carriers premium economy services. No one forced these changes on SIA, they are internally driven by a company that is greedy and believes everyone wants to travel with it no matter what.

One day they will wake up but it won't be soon as the fiasco of the new website demonstrates so well.

Continues...

spot on, LPPSKrisflyer!

Continues...

Dear cbroo and LPPS, before you put my blood level in the higher mode for not understanding and blowing my Small Fly cover, trust me, governments have certain amount of control in each airline carrier's route and entry. You heard Mr Fernandez talking about Singapore Government not allowing his AirAsia entry in Changi Airport previously. Do you recall? And are you aware of the Australian authority preventing SQ from flying the lucrative routes SIN-Aussie-U.S.? The project had to be abolish because government interference.
The SQ staff can exercise a certain amount of control in the F & B section. But not directly. They control the after effects. They depends on the passenger and crew feedback. They will, in turn, report to the company. And it is for the management to do the follow-up. The staff have had numerous reports on the situation for many months. But sometimes the management does not change things immediately. The staff got to patiently hand in their reports everytime.
It depends heavily on the external control in the overseas. You don't believe how heavy they rely on the SQ overseas counterparts. Then please do fly often on the Milan and Paris routes. You will see that there are strikes and riots among the caterers in overseas frequently. And, if you are not aware and are comfortably being served and sitting the the seats, its because the ground staff and crew have worked their asses out and cracked their brain to load your meals and clean up the cabin on board before you even board the aircraft! And they continue to serve you on board!
And, talking about zurich flight, why other airlines are not in a bad shape? Can it be the attractive low price that they offer? And did other airlines, like Qatar or Emirates or Virgin airlines, were using A380?

Are you a Singaporean, LPPS? Or you are some government official protecting your own ass? And could you give me your email so that I can explain to you certain things? Then, you will realize I am a small fly. Of course, I will see if I can help you in anyway if its within my SMALL FLY power.

Continues...

@ValentineTay:
Don't get all upset! Neither LPPS nor I blame the inflight crew or ground for the shortcomings, we clearly stated that management is to blame and for that opinion I stand and I believe the blog shows plenty of examples. Again, I strongly disagree with you on blaming foreign governments on service or hardware maintenance related issues (such as often broken IES or seats that do not work properly -even when leaving SIN). Yes, the Oz gov blocked the SIN-SYD-LAX route and yes to protect QF, but as LPPS pointed out that has nothing to do with the issue discussed.
I am very disturbed about your language though and do not appreciate that you assume that LPPS and I do not appreciate the hard work ground crews or FA's do to try to make us welcome. To the contrary, their efforts are almost sabotaged by penny pinching executives in SQ that don't provide the tools and amenities for a top notch service experience that we the customers expect for our good money - I don't think value for money is an unfair request to that end!
Your comment on the ZRH flight also misses the point - I delibeartely mentioned LX not EK! Are you truly trying to say that LX is a low price airline? You must be kidding!
Again, just as LPPS said in his comment, check your facts, don't get upset, don't use bad language and continue to work the best you can inside SQ (I assume you are inside from your comments) to make it a rising star again. Right now it is not!

Continues...

@cbroo79 , Valentine and others ,,,

Agree that so many times the good work of the cabin crew and ground staff are literally sabotaged by other parts of the organisations usually as you say .. to save money ... and most times it is the cabin crew especially who try valiantly in most cases to save the reputation of the airline. I am not just talking abt SQ here as it occurs on many many airlines .. my wife was cabin crew for over 27 years on another Asian carrier , so am very familiar with the 'troubles' often foisted onto the cabin crew to cope with... and mostly they do a great job ... and keep the customers ... hope a few Airline execs read this and take note of how unwisely saving a few dollars can cause long term damage to their business...
Keep up the good work valentine .. but pls also take note of some of the comments made on here esp regards catering which I feel are also correct - you may wish to disagree.

Continues...

ValentineTay's narrow view point is perhaps understandable
The rest of the real world is not like that twee,inward looking,over governed little place Singapore that is home and this has clearly distorted the understanding of the way that the real world and real airlines as opposed to government departments like SQ function.

SQ is fast becoming a shadow of its former self and this was always going to happen as Governments have little understanding of running airlines and should not try.

History shows clearly that with very few exceptions the large government owned legacy carriers were privatised or went out of business many years ago because they ceased to be relevant to their governments or offer the consumer a viable product. This is what is happening at SQ.

SQ has survived to date because it has always enjoyed considerable government funding and protection. As this is being reduced it is not now able to compete in the real world and needs to be privatised while it still has a following and is marginally viable.

Continues...

@cbroo79 & Asia Pacific - spot on.

@ValentineTay - please read what is being said to you and try to look at the wider picture. No one is criticising SIA crew who in the main are extremely good and consistently so. We know they are not to blame for the service they have to present and cover up another cut for people like me who know that it is happening. My experience of SIA crew is that with a small number of exceptions they do all they can to make sure passengers have a good flight.

Cuts are being made though and you should recognise that. It is particularly evident in food service and quality. Over the years items have disappeared and choices in the premium cabins have been reduced. While F is still just acceptable, I can't think of another airline that offers so little choice in C and over the years things have just disappeared from C service as cuts.

Investment has taken place in the hard product but as I've said before, I don't like the C seats on the A380 or the 773ER and I think they were a complete mistake.

Compared to many other airlines, SIA no longer delivers value for money. Companies like Emirates and Etihad IMO deliver far more providing me with a seamless door to door journey with a limo at both ends, the best I can hope for with SIA is a porter at the airport door and that only happens at SIN after I make my own way to the airport. With both of those companies I get a suite in F and their fares are usually quite a bit lower than SIA. The crew are good, not quite SIA crew but the food and drink choices are far better. On the Emirates A380 I can have a shower too so overall their product is better, Etihad don't have the A380 but their fare is usually only about 65% of the comparable SIA fare so I'm willing to forego the shower and the A380 to travel with them.

FWIW - I'm not Singaporean, I'm British. My regular commute 8-10 times a year is LHR-SYD. For many years I flew SIA only hence my LPPS status. I thought there could be nothing better and at the time there wasn't. Around 2005 I started looking around at other airlines because the cuts on SIA were becoming annoying and colleagues were talking about Emirates and of course Cathay who I had used from time to time.

What I found were airlines who were at least as good as SIA and in some cases much better - SIA business class compares poorly with Qatar, Cathay and Etihad, it's about the same as Emirates though all have IMO better seats than SIA. In F, Cathay, Emirates and Etihad are at least as good if not better in many regards.

These days I spend my money with many different airlines, I doubt I would achive much in PPS status today but I have it for ever. In comparative terms SIA is a falling star but that is not a reflection on the crew, it's a reflection on the managers. I would like it to be a rising star and back in top position. That said, for the fares they are charging, the service needs to be better and things like limos need to be added and food service needs to change gear totally.

Continues...

LPPSKrisflyer: Very unbias view on SQ present condition.

Continues...

LPPS and Flying Chinaman: I fully agree.
I had to lough when reading that LPPS started experiencing a downward trend in 2005 (sic). In that year I was supposed to fly LAX-SIN in C and checked in looking forward to the SQ LAX lounge. Little did I know.... not being a PPS of SQ, but only a Gold Staralliance, I was not allowed into the SQ lounge, but was send to "their other lounge" down the hallway... turned out to be the Aeroflot run lounge! Enough said?!

As the blog clearly shows, anybody with money or access to credit can buy a plane - hardware is important-, and yes, the seats should work and be comfortable (and not like the A380 SQ c class seats which might be ok as a bed but are plain horrible to sit in). But, the true difference is made in the people on board, the management of the company, the services and choices offered during and before the flying experience and software that runs an airline. With the exception of the first part - the onboard team- SQ is failing its customers (and obviously does not want to acknowledge it yet - with the exception of the website desaster!).
Sad story to watch! Good there are other choices!

Continues...

SIA have always had a way of making their products appear special, exclusive and ahead of every other airlines' and their behaviour with lounges is a fine example of it. Not allowing *G card holders traveling in Y in to the SKLs in SIN a case in point. It makes them seem special and exclusive.

Compare the SKLs in SIN with the CX lounges at HKG, the LH first lounges or terminal at FRA, the TG lounges at BKK and you realise very quickly how shallow the SIA gloss is. TPR is nothing special either but another attempt to make people think it is.

I took a colleague in to the F side of the SKL in T2 at SIN a few years ago, he'd never been in at all as though *G he'd only ever travelled in Y through SIN. He looked around pretending to be amazed and then said he thought it was one of the most mediocre lounges he'd ever been in and he was right, mediocre was the right word for it.

Continues...

LPPSKrisflyer:

The SKL First in T2 was not wonderful but bearing in mind that it was designed some 15 -20 years ago. The CX Marco Polo Lounge in Kai Tak was much better. No wondered your colleague was not impressed

The SKL Frist is very very nice, there is a feeling of exclusivity in this lounge, in some way better than CX First as it is more calming! I am a Hongkonger and I am not out to defend SQ!!

It is time that you should invite him to the T3SKL First again to compare the difference!

Continues...

FlyingChinaman:

I agree the SKL in T2 was designed 15-20 years ago and there it remained! It should have had several upgrades over time but nothing happened. I haven't been in it since T3 opened so I don't know if it has had any recent work. I don't really think the T3 F lounge or TPR cuts it beside the offerings of competitors these days either. At the end of the day it's a matter of taste but I think at their home bases CX, LH, TG and MH are all ahead of SQ in terms of lounges.

Continues...

LPPSKrisflyer: I agree we all have different ideas.

For me LH FRA First ClassTerminal rules!!!

Continues...

@ChinaOldHand The particular government does not fund the company. It takes the revenue from them. Money sucker!
@AsiaPacific Thank you very much for the compliments on cabin crew. And I completely agree with the food catered was bad. But that was from 2009-2010. The food provided was bad. And I had to bring my food to the plane around those years mentioned. I did realize the food was improving though. That is after some staff have brought this up to some of the top management.
@LPPS and cbroo I am not narrow minded, mind you. And I did not have bad language and I had been using Queen's english to you. If SQ is mentioned, I believed it reflected badly on half of the staff including cabin crew who had read this forum, as they take pride in their work, regardless of how well you compliment them. They would want to improve the condition for passengers. They equally feels the pain of the passengers. When you all paid US$600 odd in phone bills to call to SQ staff for booking and poured your sorrow to them, they will listen and empathise and try to help. When it comes to F & B, passengers' food is cabin crew's and tech crew's food. Whatever remaining food left is theirs. And, cbroo, I don't care if its LX or EK, its a competitor to SQ.
@all others You can try other airlines. Other airlines also have their shortcomings. I could easily see that in the forum. And here are all your sorrows being poured in. And I believed someone and a few dedicated staff in the airlines are religiously looking into your complaints in this forum. And are looking into solutions to see what they can do with their small power and authority at hand. They all want to help but felt powerless when the people in forum kept on attacking. Even if the staff continuously tries to report their findings but fails. As SQ, just like every companies, just like the very companies you own, would want staff to give solutions only with cost cutting effects. Again, certain things have no shortcuts when one owns and runs business. One big lesson to learn for everyone is that outsourcing is not the solution. It might be a disaster! SQ outsources too much including on the booking website, thinking it is better, faster and cheaper. A food for thought indeed!
*Hint..just simply ask how would anyone help in reporting the issues you all are facing. The SQ staff, who read it, will try their best to crack their brain to report the matter and to put their ideas in the suggestion intranet box to the company. I strongly believe they would do that. Have some patience in the staff, including ground staff, tech crew and cabin crew, as they have other primary jobs to do as well!

Continues...

Sad to hear that, although SQ cabin crew's service are good, passenger now prioritises more on seat and food than personal touch. I think it is quite depressing for cabin crew and it's time for them to change their jobs. Some more, even under the Singapore government's law, cabin crew is under the housekeeping section, not professional section. I wonder what is the real value of a stewardess to passengers and management. It's time for cabin crew to move to unleash their management skills and talents in somewhere else if they were not being appreciated and not allowed to overtake decisions in the company as well. :( Anyway, good news for all of us, there will be SIA subsidiary company flying medium and long haul flights in LCC manner. You may consider that and it is cheap but you will not see kebaya-clad ladies there.

Continues...

And I am wondering why everyone is not complaining on overpriced Hermes, LV and Chanel? I, as a Singaporean, felt like a 2nd class citizen when I walked into those shops. They are not approachable and stucked up as if I was there for window shopping. Only until you buy one bag from them, they started to smile at you. And some tom dick and harry were not allowed access into some parties and golf clubs. And it was meant for those with invitation cards. So isn't all these companies including SQ and related propaganda were promoting exclusivity. At the mean while, I would allow first timer to sample the krislounge. And allow yearly review of upgrading krislounge if it is managed by me? Isn't allowing LPPS to bring guests sufficient? Was price would you all pay for a ticket to consider reasonable? A JetStar price or Mr Tony Fernandez's AirAsia price? On another view on SQ being "funded" by government, is Emirates and Ethihad not funded by the royal family in Saudi Arabia. Or was I too quick and wrong to get that other governments don't have involvements and I was too narrow minded? I am not on a wider view? It is not wrong to say the airlines are semi-govt or semi-privatized while there are likes of completely private Mr Richard Branson's Virgin Airlines? As a Singaporean gal who is a frequent traveller and a manager, I would not dare to say that narrow mindedness in this forum if I were you.

Continues...

And outsourcing is a main issue that we are facing everywhere. It is direct control over things that make staff have a free play in decision in choosing the food on all flights including certain special flights. In there, they will see to changes as they work directly on your meals. If it's outsourcing, it's the middle management choosing the contracted company. The contracted company can produce nice and good food at the initial stage with an attractive low price. That was when management is monitoring them. Then, they give bad food quality in the subsequent run. Until somebody including the crew and pax pull the trigger on telling management about the quality issues in food. Why would flight report need to be written every single time and inconsistency happens when the employees could have direct control. For instance, JAL has their special catering in all over the countries like Singapore and they still maintained top notch level of food and had special drinks like kiwi honey drink. They controlled the food quality directly and don't allow things to run wild. Being an operational manager, I could see how things are handled upfront, unlike you all from middle and top management. I was involved in the various aviation industry and I am following the current affairs every other days. Cbroo: Don't be upset with me when I mentioned on government. Chill. Are you in the government sector? Aren't the Government involve in shareholder's equity and portfolio indirectly? No? Not on their national carrier? Tsk...tsk... Sometimes, things are handled under table. Are you admitting that Oz are protecting their trade? Cos every failed project that could be executed could have given SQ revenue and SQ, in turn, could give a better and higher budget. And SQ have managed to save all employees from retrenched recently. In a huge contrast, British Airways have employees' riot ever now and then. So are we here to say that management could not handle well. Pro and cons on them.
Now back to outsourcing, please be wary it is happening everywhere. Outsourcing would mean that there are no uniqueness in the taste of food. For example, let's talk about cakes for high tea and imagine you own a restuarant. As it is outsourced, cakes are catered in every restaurant not only your restuarant. And, when customer complain that the food is spoilt, you can't immediately administer the problem and sometimes the bakery factory will deny their bad qualities. The most you do is dismiss the contract company and lost money and can't claim back money.But if it was done by a bake in your kitchen or yourself, you can change the customers' dining experience immediately or by the next day, as you know what went wrong and you give a new serving to them with immediate effect. This goes the same to other products including SQ booking website. Don't try to do short cuts in business. People will know. It must be 100% dedication and hard work, isn't it?

Continues...

@Valentine Tay:
It could be funny how you frame your argument, but it is actually not. What I am trying to maintain is that a premium product should be a premium product - not just a partially premium one . Staff ok, management etc sucks.

Would you come back to a restaurant, that is claiming to be the best in town, that has great staff, but whose chairs have broken legs after being in use for a couple of months, whose food has truly becoming bad, has too much salt and the wine choices on the menu have changed from great to mediocre, but that still charges more than the restaurant just one block down the road that does not claim to be the "best" but has a consistent and comparable staff, the food is ok, system work and is better value for money!

Well in my industry the latter one would rule and the former one would go bankrupt. But in your view of the world you are allowed to disagree.
,
The beauty is, the customer - business people like LPPS, Flying Chinaman or me- , and not staff like you will decide which airline to use and give their business too!

Continues...

@cbroo79 Again, spot on.

@Valentine Tay, I'm not sure whether you are deliberately misunderstanding the points being made to you or you are arguing for the sake of it. The points cbroo79 makes speak for me too. SIA crew might be very good and in the main do their best but the remainder of the product lets them down. That amounts to substandard seats except in F on the A380 and when you sit in one for fourteen hours between SIN-LHR the seat matters more than whether the cabin crew smile a lot and the diminishing choice and quality of the food in a world where SIA keep putting up their fares.

As one of the people spending lots of money, as far as SIA is concerned, I'm the king but instead they increasingly treat me like someone who should view the relationship the other way round. Ten years ago if I made a written comment I got a reply with a full answer and explanation and if something was wrong an assurance it would be addressed. These days you don't even get a reply and if they treat LPPS members like that how do they treat people with no status at all?

As above, there are places where I get more for my money these days and I want value. SIA shows me no loyalty at all and diminishes service all the time, why should I be loyal back when I can get better service from a whole choice of other airlines and pay less for it?

Perhaps management should sit up and take note of their disappointing results released today and the falling share price. Given the website issues and declining service standards I'm sure no one is surprised. Of course I'm sure managers at SIA are doing nothing wrong and it's all the fault of people choosing to spend their money elsewhere rather than with SIA!!

Continues...

@LPPS Let me get this straight forward. On the top view, using the bird's view, when that the cabin crew real paymaster which is you all depart and leave them hanging dry, it will indirectly 'kill' the cabin crew and leave them in jeopardy for their jobs, as if the management is unable to retain staff in future runs. In SQ, all staff including cabin crew is in the "big family" in SQ. It's a sense of belonging and takes pride not only in their job but as well as the company. Why would anyone not go to other companies like CX and BA? Thousands of gals queueing up for a job interviews in SQ, SQ's reputation is big. And the only hope in sg as well. All focused on SQ and esp. so when SQ belongs to the top 50 best employers in the world under Fortune magazine. If the reputation diminishes, it will affects badly on the "family members", although they are not the main decision makers. Anyway, regarding the F and B issue, it must be the varieties of food and quantities is small ESP. In y class. They are doing something. I heard there is a change in caterers when I was in Frankfurt few days ago. They used Singaporean caterers instead of local ex station caterer to administer and check the meals. It is coming bk. Do ch'k again on ur future trips with SQ to see if the meals are not doing good again. And comment on this forum if it is too salty or oily. My friends will be checking on the website and see if they can send it through their company intranet. I have to leave this forum soon as I m going for more upgrading course and juggle with my daily managerial work.

Continues...

@LPPS it wasn't a spot on for cbroo, as cbroo might have bi polar disorder or might have missed out my words again. I have to reiterate again. I AM A OPERATIONAL MANAGER in other company, not SQ. And I AM A FREQUENT TRAVELLER which means I AM A SQ PASSENGER at times, provided by my
Company. AND I MENTIONED that I WAS in aviation industry in the PAST. Sorry, arh..., for the benefit of cbroo, cos' he can't see well and missed some words. HENCE, I am NOT SQ staff, got it? Although they can't change the airlines and business completely, the staff can DECIDE to change their JOBS, got it? MANY of them are Master and Degree holder. It is just like BA pilots and cabin crew protesting. You will see WHAT power they can DO to change the airlines' business. Isn't it too quick to make assumption on cabin crew and other staff? I wonder. Until one day they felt too powerless, they will move jobs to a more managerial positions and they set their own business. I see lots of ex-crew sitting first class and suites class. No discrimination please, cbroo. You and I are not the only ones who can decide. It's because they humbly chooses us to be their pay masters and we are all honored to be served by them, regardless which airline the stewardesses belong to.

Continues...

Last but not least, I agreed with you, cbroo and LPPS on the restaurant theory. That's why SQ, including OURSELVES as businessmen and future businesswomen, must learn that it must be 100% hard work, passion and drive to maintain standards in everything we sell and not short cuts like outsourcing. Outsourcing has to be used as a last resort. Hmm, I kind of recalled my grandfather's electronic business. How he set up to be one of the biggest electronic stores in sg in the past. It was destroyed by my uncle by outsourcing. I try my best to make sure that won't happen if I ever set up my own business. Thank God some of my Aunts' businesses are still surviving.

Continues...

And, hmm, then due to the customers' requests, why don't we help ourselves with buffets in the aircraft? There is no need for cabin crew to serve us. Give us our cheap tickets, caviar, our Dom Perignon and Krug and our lobster thermidor. We can simply help ourselves with the shelves and use our comprehensive 1,000 movies and 3,000 over games with no spoilt entertainment system.We can do our CPR when we are short of breath and we can open our emergency doors as we can evacuate fast within less than one minute. Why SQ is wasting people like them? All we want food and drinks and good entertainment! And let's raise our glasses of champagne flutes and cheers! Just simply ask them to stand pretty smile...don't need to go all the way to serve us. We will help ourselves with self service corner. Welcome to the new era of cheap buffet flights! Shouldn't it be like that, cbroo?

Continues...

@ValentineTay: your arguments are tangential. I've only had a quick skim through the above posts. In my view, it seems that the crux of the whole issue is that customers expect high standards and quality if they pay premium prices for the product/service. The fact that Government policies, outsourcing etc. may derogate from an airline's achievement of those standards expected by customers is not a sufficient excuse. It is the airline's responsibility to sort out these issues (e.g. negotiation) and the burden of the airline should not be shifted onto customers by way of sub-standard food, service etc.

Singapore Airlines prides itself of being superior. That positioning must be reinforced by superior product and service. Even their website is tarnishing Singapore Airlines' image. If I am correct, it has been 2.5-3 months since the inception of their website. I have seen little improvement and for a company of Singapore Airlines' size, that - frankly - is unacceptable. Notwithstanding that though, I have received excellent customer service when booking my tickets using an alternate mode: telephone. My service fees were waived, and service was efficient and professional.

P.S. ValentineTay, although you may be using Queen's English, I have to concur with LPPS and cbroo, that there are lapses in your expression and grammatical problems. However, that does not bother me.

Continues...

@ValentineTay Your failure to acknowledge what is being said to you about the overall product SIA deliver and your rather emotive responses are if anything putting me off travelling with SIA rather than convincing me I should. I agree, if people stop flying SIA there will be consequences for all concerned and from the current results on share price and profit, it looks like more people than me are spending their money elsewhere.

I've just booked my next three returns LHR-SYD with Etihad in F for on average 75% of the usual SIA fare not that I checked SIA properly this time because the website kept crashing. Etihad will collect me from home in a limo, let me in to one of the best lounges at LHR, accomodate me in a suite, serve a huge choice of food and drinks on demand with excellent crew on duty for who nothing is a problem and when I get to SYD another limo will drive me to my hotel. SIA just do not compete so they lose yet again.

Continues...

safe and enjoyable travels, LPPS! Good choice!
Maybe we'll meet on one of my runs to Asia / Downunder ex JFK or ZRH.
No more comment from my side @ Valentine Tay. No point.

Continues...

Hi, guys,
Whichever and what ever you like. I will still fly with Singapore Airlines. I don't see there is a need to explain or get involved in this argument. It does not help me in my personal life. You all guys enjoy flying your favourite airlines and I fly mine. No disputes. It's good that SQ take notice of your complaints and listen to you. On the other hand, I m very satisfied with them. I do see customers writing to say they improved. No point discussing, it's like Apple products, Sony products, Galaxy products. Personal preference. LPPS and cbroo take Ethihad or any other airlines are non of my business. In future runs, I m not sure if they take bk SIA. Well...it's a matter of time. We all shall see.

Continues...

And, Eugene, it is not about our complaints. It's on an analytical view on why will the company's standards dropped. It's never about you all. We should be the smart ones to learn from people's mistake and not do that on our own business rather than to be loud mouth and point fingers at their bad job. That's all. On a whole view, One will lose out. While people in SQ takes the blame in the contracted company, passengers like cbroo and LPPS will not care a damned about all these issues and blamed SQ. Moral of the story is take every in your own hands and control directly, don't outsource when you own business. if you outsource you burn your hands. We all can write as much as we can till the cows go home.
*And are you all running a English school? Or am I supposed to write an essay? Oops, sorry, teachers, too bad, I have graduated long time ago and I don't need to send in for marks.

Continues...

Yes exactly the same I did fly from NRT-SIN ...very uncomfortable. In fact the older seats are better in day time.

Continues...

the job of the press is to provide the width in reporting - it is natural that business / pleasure travellers will report in narrow terms, i.e. their actual travel experiences and the job of the airlines is to entice the passenger to use their product.

Perhaps if the airlines were more honest with their disclosures (even bearing in mind that often used, aircraft and product changes due to maintenance etc.... ) then their customers (passengers) would be more inclined to provide positive feedback because expectations were known in advance.

As has previously been stated, there are very few businesses that are able to charge thousands for an advertised product, only to supply a dated product and not have to pay compensation.

Continues...