I fly between Asia and Europe almost on monthly basis, I have never been on a flight that had so many kids and toddlers in business class. I can understand the uncontrollable baby cries, but the most recent experience from Amsterdam to Bangkok was excruciating painful for me and all the other passengers flying on business.

It appeared that the parents planned this family vacation for quite some time and let their kids loose, treating business class cabin as the sandbox. The traumatic experience began after dinner and the cabin turned off all the lights for passengers to rest. I do not need to go into details because these are just kids doing kids stuff. e.g. Running up and down the walk way, constantly switching on-off the reading light, slamming the table trays, kicking seats, laughing and talking loudly, etc. These kids also drove the cabin attendants nuts by pushing the service button repeatedly. I asked the little boy behind me not to play with the lights because it really bothered me seeing the flickering lights in the dark. The gentleman beside me also told the kid behind him not to kick his chair. All this time, the parents did nothing. I don’t know if the cabin attendants should also provide intervention because at one point, the guy that sat across from me leaped up from his chair and screamed something in Dutch at the kids because they were laughing loudly watching a comedy. They were finally silenced for about 5 minutes before resuming their kid-like behavior.

Parents should retain some control of their children, especially in such a confined area with many people sharing the same space. Not everyone is going on a vacation destination. I don’t have problem with kids flying first or business class. There are several occasions when I flew with children that were very well behaved. For me, the most important aspect of flying business is the privacy. Apparently, these parents were indifferent on how others feel.

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It is rare for kids to behave badly...it is the parents that are badly behaved by allowing their kids to do whatever comes into their charming little minds. I fly frequently, and have sat next to or near children in premium cabins that were the font of perfection - polite, well mannered, with plenty of things to keep them busy (books, portable video players, games consoles, etc.). You hardly heard a peep from them. I've also seen parents who totally ignored their kids, allowed them to eat/do whatever they wish, and cause mayhem for other passengers. I've found that a bit of a strong yet quiet word with the offending parents does quite a bit to ensure they are the ones doing what they should - looking after their charges, rather than crew or the other passengers.

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Obnoxious kids inhabit all classes. Its down to the parents to control them. I was lucky enough to fly with my two kids who are 4.5 and 2.5 the other day in business and my wife and i keep are eyes on them. Laughing and polite kids are always appreciateda nd most passengers will understand genuine issues with children. However none should forgive parents who fail to control their children regardless of the class they are in.

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While agreeing entirely that it is the parents who must control their offspring, I do take issue with the rather silly comment “I have no objection to kids in business or first” Have I to be grateful for your condescension? Perhaps you should have a private jet and travel on your own!

Parents of those children will have paid, in many instances the same as everyone else. Discounts in Business and First are very limited. Moreover, as someone fortunate to travel with kids a lot and in J an F, ( just arrived in Syd yesterday with mine) my experience is that is more often other passengers who are the most obnoxious with the worst being in business and generally those who have not paid for their own fares, something most parents choose to do and increasingly at little or no discount to the adult fares. I have seen behavior from so called adults on aircraft that is shameful and I have not heard of any instances of air rage or drunkenness from a child! I have personally had a so called adult male demand loudly of a crew that he be moved as my 6 month old was in the seat in front. “I have to work! I must sleep” he ranted when spotting the sleeping infant. No doubt his kids will be the terrors and delinquents of the future as if kids are ill mannered or ill disciplined then they learnt it at their parent’s knee. He was moved from the upper deck to the relief of all and especially the crew whilst my daughter slept for 9 of the 12 hours in the air.

In 30 years of travel I have also endured the snorers, the hygienically challenged and the downright rude; as well as inconsiderate parents, ill mannered unaccompanied minors from some of the best public schools in the world and pretty dire cabin crew who clearly do not have and will not ever have kids.

All that said, when you buy a seat on a flight, whatever the class it gives you no rights other than to be transported along with your fellow human beings, no matter how unpleasant that experience might be for you. If you really do not like it………buy a plane .

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Binman,

I couldn't agree with you more. See my posts on the "Fattest Passenger" thread for my thoughts on the issue, if you wish. They're pretty much the same as yours.

A very Merry Christmas and a Healthy and Prosperous 2010 to everyone at BT and on the Forum,

Thanks to all for your advice, help, tips, comradeship, argumentativeness, sniping and very funny posting throughout 2009. May we have more in 2010!

Simon

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Obnoxious children are not welcome ANYWHERE....nor are obnoxious adults. The difference being, in the case of kids, their behaviour should be controlled by accompanying parents, or by FA's if they are unaccompanied. In any case, the parents are to blame, for bringing up their children badly. Unfortunately, there is a thin line between what is perceived as "obnoxious" and "cute"; and the person who complains or intervenes then becomes the bad guy. I disagree: any person, no matter what his/her age, should not be allowed to wilfully ruin another's experience of anything, be that a flight, a meal at a restaurant, or a movie.

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Binman,

I couldn't disagree with you more. The originator of this thread makes a legitimate complaint about a particular experience of his: obnoxious children in business class. You are correct though that obnoxious children, as well as obnoxious passengers of various ages, can be found in every class of service of the plane.

The vast majority of business class and first class passengers on long-haul flights prefer calm and privacy. Therefore, this is social norm of the those cabins and individuals -- children, parents, or others -- wishing to violate those norms are really better candidate for being denied carriage and taking private planes as you suggested to the original poster. I would prefer though that there were not policies introduced to prevent children, for example, from travelling in premium cabins because this policy would needlessly discriminate against many well mannered persons. I do believe that parents should take more accountability for the behavior of their children ... in the case described here perhaps the parents should financially compensate those passengers unable to sleep for their decision to adopt a laissez-faire attitude and let their family run wild in blatant disregard for those around them: what gives them the right?

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Here's a thought.Maybe some of the airlines flying the A380 could remove some Economy seats and, instead, install special seats for kids and, basically, set aside this section as a cabon specifically for kids.This section could then be staffed only by crew who have been trained (to a high level) to look after kids. This would probably be the only way to make sure that kids weren't bothering adults in any other section/cabin of the aircraft. Goes without saying that the kids' section would have plenty to keep the occupied and entertained...even the brats.

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Hi everyone !!

I want to share with you my experience with my CX flight where one infant and a around 2 year old girl travelled with their parents on this flight. We were all sitting in C class. I had the front row seat in the middle of this A330 aircraft. Mother and infant sat on my left while father and daughter sat one row behind me. As infants and young children are --from time to time they get loud. The parents tried their best to calm down the two. I personally experienced how the father did his best to comfort the children inorder not to disturb other C pax in the cabin. So this was definitely an exception from the normal obnoxious kids or loud toddlers. But there is one situation which I found really interesting--when the father suddenly need to get to the toilet he just gave the toddler to the senior female purser on board--actually pushing the child to her arms. She was just so surprised, but never said anything that this is against CX's regulations.She just carried on and tried to calm the child down as this started to cry loud. It looked so normal and naturally. And the father actually did not even thanked her for that. I think most of us--just take everything for granted nowadays. Most of us just think --I paid a premium fare for me and my kids--so the airline should be responsible for everything during my flight. If this means babysitting, educating the kids on the flight, feeding them etc. Yes, it would be great, if those parents get some help from the crew--but they should not forget--they/the parents are still the prime responsibles for their kids needs and attitude on board.

I have not against kids or toddlers on board --yes, even in premium cabins ! We were all toddlers and young kids onced and surely most of us have children and travel with them--so a bit of patience and sympathetic is not that bad.

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I have issues with this as well. No one pays for/upgrades to business/first classes to put up with other people' s children. Airlines cannot do anything about it because 1/ the parents are paying/upgrading for it and 2/doing something about it would be construed as discrimination. Since airlines are not able to satisfy the needs of their business/first classes passengers - that is keep riff raff out of the premium cabins -, I suggest flying on private jets.

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This topic is indeed interesting, and perhaps you all would appreciate the input of a ex-flight attendant for a major US airline.

Kids on airplanes present a unique challenge, as the confines of an airliner cabin, the rules that must be followed there, and the basic decorum expected often run contrary to what children naturally can and want to do.

Kids flying in First/Business Class prove an even greater challenge, because in that case they are seated among adult travellers who have paid not just for a seat, but for a perceived (be it realistic or otherwise; therein lies the debate) "in-flight experience" that usually involves peace and quiet, the ability to sleep, work or to converse with seatmates. Often, passengers in those cabins fly specifically to AVOID the "Romper Room" atmosphere of an Economy Class cabin filled with familes.

One story sticks out clearly in my mind: I was working as Purser on a 757 making a cross-country flight. All 24 seats in First Class were full, as usual. There were 23 adults, almost all clearly businesspeople, and one toddler with his parents. As a poster mentioned earlier in this forum, the parents treated the entire cabin (and those of you familiar with the 757 know that even the FC cabin does not have hardly any "spare" space) like a playground--the child was allowed--almost encouraged, as the adoring parents looked on--to run noisily up and down the aisle nonstop. You can imagine the looks from the other passengers. I asked the parents nicely to keep their child out of the aisle at least to let us perform our rather intricate dinner service. They ignored me. Finally, after an hour or so of the nonsense, I decided to "cut the gordian knot". I simply stood firm and let the child run into my legs, then fall over on his back, bursting into tears. That minimized the problem for the rest of the flight.

As a PS, one female FC passenger was so appalled by the parents' complete disregard for their fellow travellers' in-flight experience that she drafted a scathing letter to them (she showed it to me) and handed it to them as she disembarked.

For passengers whose mindset is: I have kids and I can afford to fly all of us in FC/BC, and kids will be kids. Deal with it", I would like to point out that adults cannot act anyway they wish onboard an airliner. Drunk, abusive, belligerent or other antisocial behavior must be dealt with by the crew, and if necessary, the authorities on the ground. Children are not exempt from basic rules of behavior just because of their age--as evidenced by the recent removal by Southwest Airlines of a mother and her toddler which threw such an ungodly trantrum onboard, the captain actually returned the aircraft to the gate.

Rather than get into a heated and pretty pointless debate about "should children be allowed to travel in FC/BC?" (eliciting the predictable onslaught defensive accounts, seen above, of "MY kids NEVER misbehave on a plane"), I'd like to simply refer to the rules airlines have in place for their OWN employees traveling space-available.

While the precise wording and exact age mentioned in nonrevenue travel rules varies from airline to airline, essentially it is an industry-wide rule that employees' children are PROHIBITED from traveling in so-called "premium cabins", regardless of circumstance.

If the airlines, who have been doing what they do for three quarters of a century, forbid this of their employees, that should give the everyday passenger pause for thought.

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Sorry, Rick, I hear what you say but wholly disagree.

Presumably, I am the person you allude to whose child "NEVER misbehaves"? On planes that's true; elsewhere, far from it, alas. Anyway, that's not my point.

My point is this: individuals are exactly that, individuals. As a former FA, you must, I guess, understand that more than many in other professions. The real point of this thread is, I believe, that it is down to the parents to exercise control. Period.

I wonder whether these types of parent you and others refer to (and whom I have come across on many occasions, too) are exactly the sort of passenger whom, when travelling WITHOUT their kids, show an equally blatant disregard for the comfort, privacy and safety of others, by getting drunk, acting obnoxiously or being anti-social in some other way?

To apply a blanket ban on children would, indeed, be discriminatory. It would also be grossly unfair. I pay for ALL my tickets in F or C/J, and those of my family, employees, whatever. I therefore have every right to choose what class I travel in, as I do for those who travel either with me or on my behalf. Equally, I have a responsibility to ensure that those travelling with or on behalf of me (adult or child) and, indeed, myself, behave in a responsible manner that does not upset or intrude on others. If they do not, and I become aware of it, it is a disciplinary matter in terms of employees. In terms of friends or family, it is a "never again" (and yes, in terms of two friends, it has come to that, before you ask).

Perhaps some of the pax we have all met, (who often are clearly travelling up front at someone else's expense, because they don't appear to have the inter-personal skills to actually OWN a successful Company) who make a mess of it for others, should have the same attitude taken towards them by whomsoever is actually funding their trip? It is, very largely, adults, rather than children who upset others, as they form the vast majority of the payload in the front cabins.

A Happy New Year to all,

Simon

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Two things about this

First, All airlines do not ban kids from premium cabins, Qantas have no such policy and permit childrens from infants. BA on the other hand ban kids of staff to the age of 12 from First only, matter the position held by the staff member.

Kids are no different to adults in many ways and like us need diversion and something of interest whilst flying, yet airlines seem unable or unwilling to address their needs. They do not provide headsets for example that fit children so how can they be distracted by the IFE if they cannot watch it. Then of course there is the issue of content of the which in my experience is pretty poor....and do not get me started on kids meals which are generally awful even in First.

Kids should be kept under control but I know if you provided me with poor food and no entertainment for 12 hours I would be grumpy as well.

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Hi everyone !!

I do not want to deviate here--but it was just funny that even celebrities like Ivana Trump could get angry--really angry to kids in First Class and start insulting them. But the more funniest thing is--she is thrown out of the plane because she could not calm herself down. What a shame !! As if she could win against the kids---poor rich girl !!

Here is the report I read http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2009/12/27/2009-12-27_ivana_trump_thrown_off_airplane.html

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Hess963...Thanks for this. Feel it vindicates my suggestion that there are worse things on flights than kids.....Use of language such as that described in the article is unacceptable at any time and she was rightly removed. Well done that airline.

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For some years now I've wanted to mount a campaign called 'Ban Babies from Business Class'. In my opinion no one under the age of 12 should be allowed to travel in a premium class cabin. It's called 'business' class for a reason.

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Not too sure I would agree, premium cabins have a variety of names, and to be honest I dont see that much work if any going on. Yes there are the paper shufflers, who seem to have too much time and effort to see whats going on in the cabin rather than their 'work' but the flight is not an extension of my office, cant imagine it ever will be.

We go Club/Business etc for the space, IFE, comfort and ground facilties, and sometimes enjoy the meals (but not essential, thats what restaurants are for). I really dont mind children in Club as they are a distraction at times, called real life, also we are not the types who fly different members of the family in different cabins, thats just too cheap, and that type of person is 'look how important I am'. Always going back and forward to the other cabin or asking for their spouse etc to be upgraed so they are not separated. But its probably the case that they cant afford to take the whole family in a premium cabin or they are using miles etc to up grade etc. As always I say if you want to fly in a particular cabin self or family, pay for it.

However, in 1st I do expect a quiet and relatively placid cabin.

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Been a while since I posted, but this provoked me.

I don't wish to be 'class-ist' but most for Business Class (not flown first unfortunately), are flying for business (strange that), meaning we want sleep, yes that precious flat bed, quiet and a calm cabin.

While I accept babies and infants have every right to travel with their parents, in business class, one screaming baby in the MIDDLE of the cabin (the family weren't even put at the back or front) disturbed everyone. I knew my corporate travel had paid a good few thousand for this long-haul - and complained to the stewardess.

While they couldn't do anything, other than apologise - nothing more was done :-o no hint of compensation (not even a hot cocao with rum, for me or that screaming baby)

I reminded them this seat had cost a LOT of money for my company, and I had to work right up to the flight, and again getting off, it was an overnight flight, and the whole point is the bed.

What policy can cabin staff enforce for those paying a lot of money (even if its not their own)...its a dilemma that bothered me, and every time if there's one thing I pray for, its not the fat person not being by me, its the kids or babies - in business class. Or at least can airlines put these familes in one spot out of the way, NOT the middle of the entire BC cabin.

JBeaumount - totally agree with you on every front !

OK whinging over with...

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We all hate unruly behaviour from any aged passenger in planes and it can happen whatever the class of cabin. It could be the pharmaceutical rep, a little the worse for wear, flying to Cape Town with BA next to me in Club who tossed and turned spilling more of my wine than any turbulence ever could (new "flimsy" club world - NOTE VK! ;-)). It could be the "typical" occasional J class traveller who is determined to get VFM for the ticket price paid - irrespective, it seems, as to who has actually paid for the ticket! However on a lighter note, whilst flying back from LAX this summer (BA Club) with my wife and 16 year old daughter (always been well behaved in such environments) I was sitting next to an impeccably behaved 10 year old young lady who smiled at me and asked me if I had had a nice time in LA. I replied that yes indeed I had and we were returning from a lovely summer holiday etc etc. I asked if her Mum and her Dad were with her to which she replied "Yes, that's my Mum there(the upper deck Pursar) and my Dad is flying the plane (the Senior First Officer)!! Priceless! A very happy new year to all contributors and may 2010 be an enjoyable flying year for us all!

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Having spent one "memorable" night in SQ First, totally at the mercy of a shrieking infant being tossed around between a couple of teenage "care-givers" and overseen by someone called "Francis" who was LOUDLY addressed, ever-so-often, to help silence the babe, I fully sympathise with anyone who wants to ban such nuisances in premier-class cabins!

But perhaps a "ban" would be too draconian: how about if airlines were to keep a reserved seat or two in the front of Economy; and move ANYONE who disturbs the peace, to this location?

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SimonRowberry has already referred to the other thread on this topic, which contains much of relevance ( I would merge them, if I could) including Simon's own advice on travelling with children

(The first 15 or so threads are concerned with fat passengers, but after that the discussion turned to babies/ children....)

Actually, no matter what I do, the link doesn't work, but if you click on forum on the toolbar it is still in the most viewed section on the left - sorry about that)

http://www.businesstraveller.com/discussion/topic/The-fattest-person-I-have-ever-sat-next-to...

Happy New Year.

Tom Otley

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Hi Tom and everyone.

A very Happy and Healthy 2010 to all.

I was prepared to get a tad wound up about some of the expected responses to this thread but I actually find I agree with most of what you've all said.

Flew AY in Cattle LHR-HEL-VNO a few days ago and noticed more than a few silly people at the back - once we've landed it's safe to take the belt off, etc. The usual stuff. However, the biscuit was taken by some guy who managed to stand up 30 seconds after we'd touched down at VNO and proceded to get his hand baggage from the locker and walk to the front of the plane. He was obviously a rare flyer (thank God) and when he was told to sit down and got a sustained round of applause from most of the other pax, I did feel for him.

Not just kids......

Have a good one, one and all, and let's keep arguing and helping for another 12 months.

Simon

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The originator did not mention the airlines. Normally, the crew take care of noisy kids (and people), I am surprised, it did not happen in this case. I have one experience in SQ, the parents were travelling in business class and the grown-up children in economy. After take off, the children came to see the parents and was making quite a noise. (in new SQ seat, twp person could seat comfortably). Within few minutes of staring/glaring from other passengers, the crew came and told the parents very politely and firmly that this is not allowed and remove the kids. For all children behaviour, the parents are to be blamed. On the other hand, I have seen a lot of well behaved children in business class. Another point is the availability/varity of entertainment. On few occassions, my children travelled with me in business class in SQ, they were totally engrossed with the AVOD system.

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Having two young kids myself, I understand the situation from both perspectives. I fly a lot of business and yes noisy kids would disturb me too. It is up to the parents to try and control the behaviour of their kids on the flight. However, sometimes, you can't always control a crying/upset baby and if I was the parent I would feel highly embarassed.

However it should also be appreciated that kids over the age of 2 have to pay for their tickets... so a business class fare for a 2 year old is often full fare, even using miles its the same as an adult.

As some people have said, they deserve to be in business more than the children. However, the children may have paid the same amount for their flights... so they don't deserve a place in business class ? The airlines need the money and gladly take it.

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I must respectfully disagree with degreecy. Whether or not children are revenue or mileage-paying passengers is irrelevant to the issue at hand. Essentially that argument leads in the direction of (bluntly put): "I paid for it, so I can behave however in the hell I want." Despite some people unfortunately believing this, most people will agree that money doesn't give one the right to break the rule ... whether those rules are written rule or social normal of common courtesy. Disregarding those social normals is either a blatant attack on those around the offender or a lack of self awareness.

I believe there is a time and a place for almost everything. I, an adult, shouldn't show up at a children's playground to read a book and then complain that the children are running around making noise. Likewise, parents and children shouldn't come into a business or first class cabin -- utilized mostly be people that value on-board privacy, calm, ability to work or relax -- and utilize the space as they would their playground.

I'm sympathetic that sometimes outbursts are unexpected and uncontrollable ... sometime my dog jumps on people and I wish he wouldn't. Sometimes babies cry on airplane despite their parents best efforts to comfort them. In both cases the responsible adult must take appropriate action to ensure those in their charge are not disruptive to innocent people around them.

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usainbxl........You and I will have to agree to disagree I suspect..... You do make some valid points but what really is required is good parenting, good manners and good service. What kids don’t need is banning orders or prohibition. If we ban them how can we expect them to grow into socially adept adults?

It is in my experience it is adults who fail to behave to the social norms...after all children are children and we should not, indeed we must not, expect them to be adults no matter the surroundings. Well behaved yes, children certainly, but not adults. Their childhood is already too short.

As I stated earlier I have endured the hygienically challenged the snorers and the down right rude, none of whom behave to the social norm and I can tell you that being stuck next to, or indeed in the same cabin as, someone with BO for 10 hours is thoroughly unpleasant.

I travel with my kids in First and god help them if they play up. But whilst I do not expect them to sit still, I do expect that the airline will provide them with a service that meets their needs and which provides them with a level of distraction, suitable to their age, in much the same way as the airline does for me. Head phones that fit along with decent in-flight entertainment would be start. Catering too needs to meet the needs of the customer both in terms of cutlery, dishes and glassware as well as what goes on the plate. All too often kid’s meals in first and business are often simply economy meals put on a china plate. This is not acceptable and neither is junk food filled with e numbers and sugar…….the kids equivalent of too much alcohol. Food that meets national nutritional standards and is presented well is what is required. No different in other words to an adult requesting a special meal on dietary or religious grounds.

Airlines differentiate their products to make money and not just by class, but by fare type as well, resulting in a variety of passenger types in each cabin. Some want to sleep, some to work, some for the experience. Kids are no different and airlines need to provide services to meet those needs on the ground and in the air. Kids after all are airlines future revenue and have potential high lifetime worth. Kids are also very discerning, often more so than adults, and have very long memories and a great deal of pester power.

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Binman,

Well said. I agree with pretty much everything you've said, yet again. I thoroughly concur with your comments re child meals - too often it is, as you say, uninspiring, junk or (on some carriers) just horrible. I always check when I book a child meal exactly what it is likely to comprise. I don't always get a consistent answer of course.....

Overall, I agree with your thinking in your post.

Regards,

Simon

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Binman, I don't think we're disagreeing too much at this point actually. I don't really support "banning" people, including children, from First Class ... although I'm not sure what appropriate consequences would be for parents that fail to be as responsible as yourself with their children.

I wanted to follow up though on your hope for age-appropriate in-flight video and meals... All I can say is good luck! Although I think you deserve it. I can empathize with you on this one though ... I'm vegetarian and eat fish, but I never both ordering a vegetarian meal (thankfully, fish is served more frequently reliably in the last few years) because of the "economy meal dumped onto a plate" phenomenon you described. For any health-conscious dinner, adult or child, relying on an airline to do you right is a recipe for disaster unless you pick and choose. I find it amazing though how many people, especially in business class, seem to look forward to that re-headed meal and eat things presented to them that they wouldn't otherwise touch if they were on the ground!

So, it's not just the children not getting what they want to eat in F ... the rest of us that used to enjoy Krug are suffering too with now cheaper, less differentiated alternatives.

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usainbxl, I'm not saying that we paid for it therefore the children can behave as they like. I said it was the parents responsibility to try their best to keep them well behaved.

What I was saying is to comments previously where some people think that children should be banned from business class when they have paid the same fare as the adult.

Most parents do try and make the children behave quietly and properly whether in economy or business - it is the odd case where people don't behave responsibility and let their kids run riot - which is completely unacceptable and what has sparked this debate in the first place.

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Weren' t business and first classes designed to be child-free?!? If children, especially misbehaved children (and how can one qualify that before boarding?) are allowed in premium cabins, then the only solution left for adults who want calm flying "experience" is to fly on private aircraft, at a cost.

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That is right JJ--if an adult wants his peace without any child on board the premium cabin--a private jet is the solution. But if you can't afford it, well--he/she has to cope with us mundanes ! I don't think any sensible airline will ban children in general from F and C cabins--that will be...( I let anyone to finish it on his/her own..)

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JJ51435........"Weren't business and first classes designed......"

No, they were designed to provide more space, more comfort and generate profits for airlines. Being child free does not gurantee a calm experience..... As stated repeatedly in this forum, children are children, but it is adults who cause the greatest problems including air rage. Flying, no matter the class is public transport and that means we traval with our fellow human beings with all the associated issues that may or may not create. If you cannot deal with that, then indeed get a private plane and let the rest us get on with our lives.

Hess 963 agree entirely......

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Binman and Hess Yet again I agree with everything you have said. Simon

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I really hate it when parents travel with their babies! Its really annoying! I think airline lounges should split their lounge into First Class, I Business Class and Family Lounge (where the parents and kids can all stay together and scream all they want). I feel shortchanged whenever I have to patiently seat in a lounge with screaming kids or kids running around the lounge and their parents don't seem to be embarrassed at all and ask their kids to behave. I had to endure a 9 hour flight before with a screaming baby and that was in the business class.

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Arlene

My heart bleeds for you. Get real. This thread should be called 'Obnoxious Adults and Irresponsible Parents in Business Class' as it's the adults not the kids who are the problem.

Just checked out of the Istanbul Hilton. On two occasions when I was doing business with the Concierge, people came and impatiently looked over my shoulder and, on one occasion, sat in the chair next to me and actually scrutinised my bill. I know it's not on a plane but it is highly obnoxious behaviour. And from adults.

Simon

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I definitely second you here Simon ! If those adults want their peace--then they should fly in a private plane or just cope with it and stop moaning here. It is definitely the adults here who are the dreadful ones than the children. So sad...

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The adults are "dreadful" because they cant control their children....if they have taken the trouble to bring them up properly in the first place. There was a time when children in restaurants, hotels and airplanes were TAUGHT to behave with consideration towards others; and not become a nuisance. That was probably because their parents knew the difference....and the value of it. Nowadays, most adults dont; so how can one expect their children to be any better?

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This thread is turning into a Statler & Waldorf sketch:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGfx3QAV64M

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Its really irrelevant whether one is disucssing a seat in First, buisness or economy class, it could be in a theatre, a cinema or an art gallery. Screaming kids as well as obnoxious adults should ejected. Its called common decency and consideration. Its a way of life that iwas taught by my parents and i have passed this down the generation to my children. It should work both ways. Passengers and crew should smile more. its amazing the different reaction you get from demanding a drink to politely asking for a drink - it works both ways. Lecture over!

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Nice one, VK!

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Whatever the rights and wrongs of children and their behaviour on aircraft, its usually instructive to watch how cabin crew handle and interact with the youngest generation of flyers. Airlines with a balanced demographic of cabin crew, such as BA, KL, LH as well as SQ and CX generally cope well and look comfortable and professional in this role. I laugh, though, when i see the "beautiful young things" who make up the majority of cabin crew on EK, struggling with their child interaction responsibilities, often taking little interest in, particularly, babies and not knowing what to say/ do when relating to slightly older travellers.

Have airlines ever been rated on the child-friendliness of the services?

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Loosely related to your comments Tom, I travelled LGW-JER yesterday on BA in Club, sitting next to me was a lady with a four month old baby on lap. During the flight she asked the crew if they could get some assistance in JER to help her with having to carry the baby and two items of small luggage.

The crew were very apologetic but said that they have no control over the ground staff and that the only assistance they can summons is a wheelchair, which of course was not what she wanted. The offered to help her down the steps. All she needed was a trolley at the steps which she could push to the baggage claim area.

In the end myself and another passenger each carried and item to the baggage claim area for her. It is such a shame that a basic bit of customer assistance can't be given. If it is possible to summons a wheelchair why not a trolley?

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I'm sure, like most things these days, somehow it comes back to health and safety! It seems that common sense and quick thinking are often discouraged, and therefore lacking in the service industry as a result.

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Some times this kind of behavior annoyed a lot ans specially when you are in business trip .

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When travelling over the years with first a baby and then a toddler and now even a 7 year old, I always get nasty glances from fellow passengers in business class. The truth is my daughter is an experienced traveller flying between Europe and Asia at least 6 times a year. I personally feel she is one of the best behaved passengers on the flight, treating the crew with respect. As a baby she slept for most of the flight, and now she entertains herself by reading, coloring, watching cartoons or by playing games.

On the other hand, many so called "businessmen" act horribly in business class. As some people have already commented, they don't pay for their own tickets, so they take full advantage of the free bar service onboard. They get totally plastered, becoming loud and arrogant. They laugh with their fellow "businessmen" and stand in the aisles with no consideration to fellow passengers trying to sleep. They keep ringing the service button for more drinks and snacks and sometimes they even sexually harrass the cabin crew. Shouldn't we ban these people from the business class??

Of course I have been on flights where parents don't control their children at all, letting them run around terrorising everyone onboard. But just because some individuals don't know how to behave, it is senseless to try to ban children from first and business class. With the same logic shouldn't we try to ban children from economy class, or all public places while we are at it...

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Workingmom,

Excellent post. Couldn't agree with you more. It meshes with everything I've said above and on the "Fattest Traveller" thread - good to get a mother's view on this issue too.

Simon

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An interesting discussion. I have two children and next year being my wife's 40th birthday, will be taking the whole family to Europe for 6 weeks. Fortunately I have been saving up my AA miles for a while, so hoping to access 3 award seats in J (my daughter will be 4) as well as buying my infant son (then 17 months) his "bassinet seat" (10% of J fare).

Now, my daughter has been a frequent flyer (within Australia) since 12 weeks old and loves being in an airport or on a plane.

We have always fed (breast or bottle) our children whilst taxiing, through take-off and into crusing altitude so that they have both slept for significant periods. Similar for descent - as soon as it starts, it's time for a feed. This usually gets rid of the ear problems which cause some discomfort to them and fellow pax.

I agree wholeheartedly that it is our responsibility to manage our children and love showing them the plane (galley, out the window, ralking with the FA's when not busy, walking up and down the aisle). But I know to respect others space and tranquility. During wake periods, use of our own toys etc (plus the airline children packs) has generally been sufficient to occupy them.

Others may use Fernergan or other medicinal needs, but we try to keep that to a minimum (but may have some in our carry-on just in case, having tested it prior to flying to see the childs' reaction to the drug).

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I bought my son up on being able to visit the flight deck and fly up front with me when ever he could. Those days are now long gone in the airline, but fortuantely not in corporate aviation.

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At risk of being branded racist, you should see the truly awful behaviour of kids from the GCC countries. The rule, rather than the exception, is for them to be totally uncontrolled and uncontrollable and to spend every flight running up and down the aisles. Almost every long haul flight from the GCC is a potential nightmare. My own solution? Well, call me callous, but I stick my feet out into the aisle just as one of these little brats comes tearing past. Brat ends up on the floor. After his second flooring he tends to give me a wide berth after that and the other kids learn from their peers. Other passengers regularly express their appreciation for "someone taking the law into their own hands" and cabin crew are also highly appreciative. The only ones who seem not to like my actions, apart from the brats themselves, are the parents as their offspring tend to stick around them and thereby ensure their flight is made a misery. And how well deserved is that!

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Some of the best kids in terms of behaviour when flying, reflect the countries attitudes generally, & where children should as their society teaches them.

Dutch Kids are always funny, but do as their parents tell them, and they remind them why they have to. Thai's the same when travelling, dis-courtesy to others would not be acceptable in Thai spiritual or moral life.. Aussie kids are all excited, but again firm boundaries & these are all examples of good parenting, education, & society values & morals

I find the British kids the worst, but then look at the behaviour of our younger generation compared to other EU countries. The UK Criminal Justice system is overloaded with them, & you can see the general attitudes on the streets in London. Bad parenting, P Correctness not common sense takes away respect for others, discipline & lack of community spirit, & an over-commercialised materialistic world they expect. Hardly "celebrities" role models are the worst example yet they are obsessed with them. Not a great set of values from all this... I don't see this to any other level, in other countries, simple.

Its a fundamental failure of British Society, in cities overall.

So who do you think are the best behaved generally, reflecting their country's Values?

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Sorry Mark but you just can't generalise children and pidgeon hole by class, race or creed. There is good and bad in all and parenting the same.

Last year my wife and I were travelling by train from Greymouth to Christchurch in New Zealand, the family at the table behind were awful, they were celabrating a birthday, yes the Grannies 80th who looked so p***ed off she was gazing out of the window whilst the children were taking control of the parents wanting this and that and they were giving it too them.

In my travels I have seen many "brats" from other countries. As I said in an earlier post its down to parenting and upbringing but that applies in all countries

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You havent lived until you've sat in a plane or airport-lounge, or at a resort's pool, with screaming Indian brats. Makes one long for the days when a good tight slap was a permissible way to control one's offspring.

But what does one do about their obnoxious mummies and daddies carrying on LOUD conversations on their mobiles? An equally loud "SHUT YOUR FACE!!" ?

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I agree with you bombayteddy! Gone are the days when a clip around the ear of an unruly child was acceptable.

Also, gone are the days when you could tell off somone elses badly behaved kids without getting abuse or backchat .

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I recently flew Economy Class from Pakistan to Manchester and there was a disturbed and clearly spoiled child running round pulling at curtains, kickign and punching people. He then began wailing midflight so I gave him some sweets to shut him up and it was the father I'd pinpoint. The father kept cuddlign and kissing this child. So of course when this brat wanted more sweets I got two hard kicks and was most bemused. I told the father in clear words that this kid, when he starts nursery/school will get many complaints about behaviour. If that had been my child they wouldn't have dared to behave like this and if they did they would get a clout round the ear ! I'm only 30 by the way and all for good manners and etiquettes. Maybe kids of certain ages shouldn't be allowed in premium cabins.

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One pays an enormous premium for children to travel in business class too.

The premium paid by business passengers allows one a lot more personal space, as opposed to the opportunity to live is some kind of King Herod style child-free world.

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Bottom line (I hope!) :

Children are people, same as adults. Nobody can say they should NOT be allowed into Premium cabins, as long as someone has paid their fare. Upgrades, however, are an entirely different matter and should be on the judgement of airline personnel at check-in or gate. So are babes-in-arms, as their bawling is SURE to disturb others, and therefore should be banned totally from Business or (especially) First.

However, like ALL passengers, there are certain rules of conduct which children must follow. And if they dont know what those are, they should be told by their parents. And if their parents are unconcerned, they should be told such behaviour is unacceptable from their children.

I suggest punitive measures where requesting or reprimanding doesnt work for obnoxious adults or their offspring. A stiff penalty, payable on arrival, should work very nicely, I think!

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The issue is that whilst people have the right to pay as much as they want for the tickets whether First, Busienss or Economy any pax in any cabin has the right to be resepcted both in terms of customer service and passenger etiquette. In the same way that a parent allows a child to run up and down economy class, to most people that is more acceptable becasue there is a saying you get waht you pay for. However a child running up and down the economy asiles is just as annoying to the person who is being disturbed.

I have absolutely no care in the world if a parent wants to spend £12000 (i was aghast that even adults pay this fare never mind kids) for a first class ticket, but when a minor travels there has to be a responsible adult. A child disturbing any passenger is wrong amd just becasue that child is in a premium class gives him or her absolutely no right toact as he or she pleases in the middle of the night.

I have no problem seeing kids in premier classes, I only have a problem if the children are the casue of me not sleeping in the same way that an adult fatty who snores and passes wind in the middle of the night makes the cabin extremely uncomfortable as well.

If you have a strong crew this becomes less of an issue - but i have seen as many adults casuing havoc including one recently who insisted on trying to use his phone at 37000 feet (as if it would work) in clear view of the cabin crew who purposely turned away to avoid a confrontation as the offender was an A list VIP.

Cabin crew in First and Buisiness need to show strength in dealing with issues and yes, the more a pax pays for the ticket the more security he or she should have in terms of comfort, esepcially in the ability to sleep, irrelevant of whether its a daytime or a nightime flight.

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AlexUpgrade77 and Daytripper........nonsense

Bombay teddy could not agree with you more.

Martysinclair. Thank you for a common sense posting......

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I think the reasonable postings on this issue are conveying the message to the airlines that we, the paying passengers, expect standards of conduct to be enforced by the company employees whose job it is to ensure our Safety and Comfort, in that order.

assume all sensible managements monitor this site for clues and suggestions, however Bleating on this Blog is pointless unless backed up with detail sufficient for responsible operators to identify threats to their business.

And if the Experience was SO Bad, and your business value would be noticed if lost, then a personal letter is the only real recourse.

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Age_Of_Reason is absolutely right - but a lack of a business seat booking would hurt the airline more than just a letter, which I suspect would just get filed in the normal place. incidentally, travelling oin Air France last week yet another horrid brat was tearing up and down the Economy aisle. As I was sitting very close to the economy/business class divide, I "diverted" said brat into the business section from where within three minutes a flustered stewardess returned the brat to its parents. Maybe the knock on from that should be that passengers in Business should divert brats into First class and those misbehaving in First class should be frog marched right to the back of Economy and handed over to one of the cabin crew there for action. The problem with middle eastern airlines is that most cabin crew - the majority of whom are recruited from Asia - would never so much as dare challenge the passengers for fear of losing their jobs. In Europe the cabin crew are less intimidated by the passengers!

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On many occasions we choose to fliy business class, and on some occasions we have been unfortunate to endure the experience of unruly children, willingly not being kept in control by their parents whilst they are lying back, reclining on their seat, enjoying the perks of the premium class, leaving youngster left alone to occupy themselves accordingly.

I am a teacher and am incredibly used to dealing with children of all ages, abilities, strenghts, weaknesses, challenges and learning needs and no stranger to dealing with parents too. And quite simply, the control of the children lies with the parents. Society now seems to dictate we live in a blameless, live free world and everything is always someone elses problem... hence why so many of us now do experience trying and frustrating experiences. Flying and children on flights is now a hundred times more common, there are some incredible deals available for premium classes, business paying for whole families to relocate and issuing premium tickets for the whole family, therefore it is a natural progression that we are seeing more and more children coming into premium classes.

Like most, I think we all have our fare share of experiences - a few detailed below of both positive and negatives!

Positives first! Virgin - Upper Class Hong Kong to Sydney - two screaming toddlers in the lounge, running riot, right up to the point of embarking and running riot down the jetty, only with their Dad (struggling to keep them in control as he was on his own). Hoping and praying they were heading to Premium Economy - oh no, Upper Class they go - a seat each. But to the travelling passengers surprise, they changed into the pyjamas, settled into their seat that was 10 times their size, they settled down and slept, causing no problem at all - even when they woke up... So all credit to them and their Dad.

Virgn - Syndey to Hong Kong, Premium Economy - the return journey! A UK family, older parents with a young son of around age 9/10 - they doted on him to their best, he treated his parents like dirt, physically hitting them in anger and veryablly abusing them.... The mother tolerated this and tried to appease her son as best possible... Didn't really work. I was sittiing directly across from him... Teacher-mode kicks in and indirectly loudly say to my partner "I cannot believe how digustingly evil, unkind and unpleasant this creature of a child is - he should be thoroughly ashamed of his disrepctful, cruel and unkind behaviour to his mother".... this combined with a piercing look in his direction, made him crumble, slightly whimper and put an aspect of balance, discipline and respect back in his soul for the remainder of the flight. Job well done!

Emirates - Dubai-Hong Kong. Large business orinetated Arab family travelling, two parents, three children and a maid/helper. Children generally ok but resltess for the flight, parents ignoring them, maid in economy occasionally coming through to assist, although Flight Attendants, largely doing the job. An hour out of HK, due to land, Typhoon 9 (severe, enough to shut down Hong Kong businesses and schools etc), plane hits severe turbulence and is in a major storm. An older son of the family refuses to put his belt on after several requests. Purser then speaks to father who relinquishes all responsibility, he is then read the legal acts of compliance etc etc etc. Plane attempts to land, moments before landing, the son removes his seat belt and attempts to walk down the plane - Purser has to scream at the boy to gain control and safety...

Malaysian Airlines - Kuala Lumpur to Hong Kong. Parent with child, child allowed to freely roam round the cabin distrubing other passengers by climbing up on chairs and kicking the backs of chairs... Parent does nothing...

I agree with the comment and story of a US Flight Attendant who's hand onhand experience of these situations... ultimately, regardless of class, cabin, adult or child, there is a standard of polite, courteous, safe and considerate behaviour expected from ALL passengers to ensure our journeys are safe, comfortable, enjoyable and pleasant.

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If parents let their kids into business class then they should be parents instead of letting cabin crew sort out their little brats and be prepared to put up with spoilt teenagers and snooty young adults as their kids grow up thinking they are something special. Ridiculous to think there are fully grown adults who do cram themselves into economy while spoilt little rich kids' feet barely touch the ground in business.

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Seems lufthansa thought the lounges:

http://www.lufthansa.com/mediapool/pdf/05/media_843005.pdf

Potakas

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Hi Potakas,

Thanks for letting me know about this.

My immediate response is "Oh bugger. Now I'll come under pressure from my 10-year old to fly Lufty all the time.....!"

Regards, Simon

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You can minimise the effects of children flying by not flying on weekends and during holiday seasons. I am still very surprised with advances in IFE on planes especially on log haul flights that this topic is still an issue. All passengers have access to a wide range of services including movies, cartoons, children’s activity packs & video games. On top of that most children also travel with their own ipods, portable games consoles, books etc. Parents should ensure they pack appropriate provisions as to entertain their children and not to disturb other flyers.

Airlines should ban people running onboard aircraft on the grounds of health and safety. Where parents continually disregard their fellow passengers by allowing children to continually be a nuisance and make no attempt to ease this issue or apologies to other travellers. All these passengers should be then blacklisted for a minimum3 years. And names of passengers shared with other airlines.

BA has it right by not allowing children under the age of 12 not to fly in First.

Regardless of which class of cabin people fly all passengers should observe sensible etiquette and take responsibility for their actions and those of their minors.

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I totally agree with BA - no kids under 12 in F class and try and do the same in Business. I only wish my mother was still around her withering look out of horn rimmed specs made you take notice and do as you were told. In my partners experience and mine the worst 'families' are expats working in the Gulf. Qatar Airways do not tolerate bad behaviour and that is why we use them. Our worst experience was on Emirates, we flew business to Mauritius via DXB on the return DXB-LHR leg my partners and mother sat in the 2 seats on the left of the cabin - i had one seat in the middle 3 across the aisle, just after boarding a typical ex pat brit, his wife and child (about 2 year old) boarded, they had not bought a seat for the kid and wasked the cabin attendant if I could be moved so the kid could have a seat. The cabin was full so no joy. Thats when the mother and kid made the flight miserable, during lunch she insisted on breast feeding the kid and then changing the nappy on the seat next to me. When Ii objected as i was still eating i was told - get a life i will do what i want. When i complained to the purser he shrugged his shoulders and said what could he do.

The combination of non affective cabin crew and idiot parents was a recipe for disaster.

Dont get me wrong my god daughters are angels when we take them on holiday, and yes we pay for J class for them, I was also an ex pat working in the Gulf in the 80s and would never have treated other pax and crew like this family did.

Children should be 'seen and not heard' as mother used to say - how true.

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whatseconomy,

Sorry to burst your bubble, but BA do allow infants and children in F (as so they should).

Someone changing a nappy next to you, when there's facilities in the toilet (I assume, I've never flown Emirates), is out of order. But it sounds like the mother was the problem, not the kid.

I don't see your point about breastfeeding though. You do realise that that's natural right? Did she offer you some - is that the issue?

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Flytoomuch - nice one!

Whatseconomy - yes, your gripes, many of which were justifiable, related wholly to the parents, not the kids.

I'll reiterate what I've said before: in most cases (indeed ALL cases in my personal and extensive experience) the problem is the adult, not the child. I found your comments about kids to be facile, simplistic and too all-embracing. Sorry.

Simon

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Rob - have you ever thought of working for a right-wing junta? Your ideas would probably chime well with such a regime ; )

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I too would feel extremely uncomfortable if I was sitting next to a lady breast feeding her child whilst i was eating my lunch within the confines of economy or business class.

This has nothing to do with being prudish or wishing to discriminate between the sexes, it has to do with common decency and understanding between fellow passengers.

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"This has nothing to do with being prudish or wishing to discriminate between the sexes..."

How else would you describe it? Surely the child has a right to be fed as well?

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BA and to my knowledge all airlines allow kids in F. BA prevent their own staffs children, including directors, from using the F cabin. Not sure what it achieves as they all travel on a space available basis. It harks back to a very old fashioned way of thinking which also included staff having to wear suits when traveling, even when on holiday. The latter rule was abolished some years ago but the ban on kids 12 and under has remained. As for breast feeding, well I cannot think of a better way to sooth a tired and fractious infant or a more natural activity. In my experience most women would do so discreetly and I for one would object to them being banished to toilets. That is simply Dickensian and has no place in the modern world.

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whatseconomy - what a load of tosh! if the breastfeeding was bothing you so much, put the divider up, and you would not have even known! As for changing the baby, there I may agree with you, that is out of order ( there are perfectly good changing facilties in the loo's) but again that is the mothers fault not the babies. We flew LHR-DXB-JNB return with a 4 month old. Cabin was empty on way out, so no issues, but fairly full on the return, the person sitting next to us took one look at us and moved seats to the rear of business near economy... I giggled to myself when for most of the flight i could hear a child sceaming in economy just behind him. In the immigration queue the girls sitting in the row behind us noticed our daughter and where amazed as they had not even realized there was a baby in front of them.

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whatseconomy - what a load of tosh! if the breastfeeding was bothing you so much, put the divider up, and you would not have even known! As for changing the baby, there I may agree with you, that is out of order ( there are perfectly good changing facilties in the loo's) but again that is the mothers fault not the babies. We flew LHR-DXB-JNB return with a 4 month old. Cabin was empty on way out, so no issues, but fairly full on the return, the person sitting next to us took one look at us and moved seats to the rear of business near economy... I giggled to myself when for most of the flight i could hear a child sceaming in economy just behind him. In the immigration queue the girls sitting in the row behind us noticed our daughter and where amazed as they had not even realized there was a baby in front of them.

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I didnt say that I was 'bothered' by breast feeding - i said i would feel uncomfortable. In exactly the same way that I would feel uncomfortable if my children were exposed to passengers of the same sex cuddling up in the seat together in business class. Its all to do with common decency and respect for your fellow passenger, something that seems to have dissappeared over the years. If somebody wantes to pick their nose, I have no issue, as long as it is not done in my line of vision. In the same way, breast feeding, whilst a natural and beautiful experience (according to my wife) there are times when others should be considered and meal times in business class is one of them!

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whatseconomy - changing the baby was out order and should of been a bit more understanding due to the fact you were still eating. As for breastfeeding even though natural the mother should have done her utmost to be as discreet as possible.

Simon - no i have not though of working for a right wing junta. Having re-read my suggestion of blacklisting passengers, it was a little extreme :)

Regardless of which class of cabin people fly all passengers should observe sensible etiquette and take responsibility for their actions and those of their minors.

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Out of the many many posts and comments on these pages, Rob Smith ought to be praised for his simple and sensible:

(only in capitals becasue I want to shout it)

PASSENGERS SHOULD OBSERVE SENSIBLE ETIQUETTE AND TAKE RESPONSIBILTY FOR THEIR ACTIONS AND THOSE OF THEIR MINORS.

So true so true - this should be emblazened on the door of every aircraft.

If some families let the children run wild If some mothers want to breast feed If some gay couple want to embrace If some staight couples want to embrace (just for equality) If some people want to pick their nose If some people want to shout

the list could go on and on

There is a time and a place and the inside of a modern passenger jet needs common decency, understanding and etiquette.

A great post robsmith100 - a great post.

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ChesterSimons - your summary (on etiquette and responsibility) sounds prefectly reasonable. Your expectations of etiquette however appear to hide some deepseated and offensive prejudices.

Oh well, guess I do have to put up with people like you in the cabin also.

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And I know I'd rather fly with people like ChesterSimons in the cabin, however hidden his so called, quote "deepseated and offensive prejudices" are than some I could name.

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Simon, it seems that BA also offers kids zone on their First Galleries Lounge at T5:

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/lounges-galleries/public/en_gb

Potakas

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Flytoomuch - the subject of this thread is "Obnoxious kids in Business Class"

If I prefer not to expose my children to embracing couples (GAY or STRAIGHT) and if I prefer not to sit next to a women breast feeding, whilst I am eating lunch, these are life choices / preferences. This does not mean I am prejudice.

Please stop playing the PC card just because someone doesnt hold your views on how life should be lived.

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Thanks, Potakas.

I look forward to taking my son there - as much to annoy some of the pompous and prejudiced so-and-sos above as for any other reason!

I was on two Cross-Country trains today in First Class, by the way. On the first leg there were a number of business travellers shouting into their phones (whilst I was trying to prepare for an important presentation) and being unbelievably rude to the "train manager" (guard as we used to call them).

On the way back, there was a family sitting three-across in front of me, which comprised (presumably) mother, father and a boy about 6 years old. Not a peep out of the child and the parents were impeccably mannered to everyone. Yet who was sat behind me? A moron who insisted on conducting his business very loudly on his phone. When the signal was lost, he then proceeded to beat the hell out of his laptop keyboard. And then when he managed to re-make his call, he announced in a loud voice "Sorry about that, old chap, but the f***ing signal is useless on this train."

Conclusion based on today:

Children and (for once) parents : no trouble at all and a pleasure to have around me

At least 6 business travellers (over the two journeys) : ignorant, arrogant and totally oblivious to the needs of anyone else apart from fuelling their own egos.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

Simon

Oh, I forgot to add that one bloke spread himself out over two seats (sitting in the aisle seat of course, to dissuade anyone from sitting by the window) and then moaned and complained loudly (including the use of expletives) when he was asked by a passenger if he would mind either moving over or allowing the person to have the window seat. This was despite the fact that First Class was pretty much full on the way up.

As I said, thoughtless morons.

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Chester - I also interpreted your posting as being fairly prejudiced, unfortunately.

And whatever the thread title, many posters have referred to the much more significant problem of obnoxious ADULTS in Business Class.

Simon

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IMHO obnoxious children anywhere, let alone on a plane, are the products of their parents. If they are allowed to get away with murder they will do so. If their parents have no control in private they're unlikely to have any in public. The parents probably behave in a similar manner albeit in an "adult" way. I think what this thread started to ask was something along the lines of "should parents inflict their ill mannered offspring on the public in a confined space?" Of course they shouldn't. It is a different question as to "who is to blame?" While you can't necessarily blame a child who knows no better you can expect the parents to have consideration for others and use some control over their offspring. Perhaps the thread should have asked about obnoxious behaviour rather than obnoxious children.

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Iloydah - I think the thread has actually developed in the way you suggest.

And it is richer for doing so.

Simon

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Simon

If preferences are going to be considered as "Prejudice" then opinions should not be expressed. I do not consider it appropriate for a women to expose her breast (however discretely) to feed a child with no care or interest in the person sitting next to her.

In the same way I do not wish to expose my children to couples (gay or straight) engaging in behaviour that is unsuitable considering the surroundings.

I come from an environment where children still stand when their seniors enter a room and where modesty forms part of everyday living. I can categorically tell you that the behaviour of the children as well as well as the adults is impecable because standards are maintained.

Please dont confuse "prejudice" with moral life choices.

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"Please don't confuse "prejudice" with moral life choices."

[Big smile.] I'm not going to get into mud-slinging with you - res ipsa.

You still haven't answered my question - does the child not have a right also to feed, whilst you stuff your face?

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Flytoomuch - the way you use your Queen's English explains my point perfectly, as I was not bought up to "stuff my face".

To answer your question (modified) yes the child has a right to be fed. If the child was that hungry and needed to be fed at that moment in time, I would have suggested to the cabin crew that my meal is delayed.

Politeness and respect works both ways, especially in a confined environment. So before you shout "Prejudice", remember what you find acceptable may not necerssarily be the same for the person you are serving or the passengers sitting next to each other.

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Dear, oh dear, flytoomuch, I think we've touched a wee nerve with Chester!

Chester - please don't moralise to me or to anyone else on this Forum.

I also feel sad that you think it is appropriate for children to stand when elders enter the room. I believe fully in respect, in all its forms. However, I also believe in social equality, within certain parameters.

My children do not stand when their elders enter a room. They do, however, have great respect for them. One does not exclude the other.

What gets my goat are those who hypocritically claim to have particular standards and then behave completely differently when it suits them. Ergo, the "respectable" business traveller who:

1. Pushes his way in front of other people waiting to get onto a train (numerous examples just today)

2. The passenger who places his hand baggage under MY seat and then refuses to move it (Finnair and Turkish Airlines in the last couple of years, in Business Class)

3. The passenger who verbally abuses cabin crew and threatens a colleague, and who gets arrested on arrival (SK to CPH a couple of years ago)

4. The passengers who take more cabin baggage than permitted and then leave you with nowhere to place yours (almost every flight I get on)

5. The rail passenger who always sits on the outer seat, no matter how full the train is, with his or her laptop out, taking up two seats and not giving a toss (and DON'T you DARE correct my English - it's the proper version, not the US equivalent, Chester) about anyone else's ability to sit (seen EVERY day on my commute)

These are examples of crass ignorance. And do you notice something, Chester? NOT A SINGLE CHILD IS INVOLVED! (Yes, I'm shouting, just like you did earlier).

Chester, dear boy, no matter how you try to defend your views, they are prejudices. Moral choice is one thing. Your views are another.

Now lighten up, for God's sake. And stop trying to defend the indefensible and having a pop at other posters.

To quote B.Fawlty Esq "You started it."

Regards and have a great weekend,

Simon

PS Some of this is called "irony." You probably don't fully grasp the concept, s far as I can see from what you've written above ; - )

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Chester - the "prejudice" I read derives from your comments on gay couples embracing.

And you do yourself a disservice by the explanation you proffer - that you would choose to delay your meal. That is not always practical - she may need to feed the child whilst you are in the midst of stuffing your face.

A mother's right to breastfeed a child must be paramount, and not subject to the whims and fancies of the people around her, particularly in a confined space like an aeroplane. Yes, I would recommend that she try and be discreet (simply to avoid a confrontation with those around who may not be as tolerant), but she should never feel shy or embarrassed about doing so. It's your problem, not hers.

For the record, I am a frequent flier in F, not a 'server' (you condescending b******). I have two kids who fly LH twice a year, but we always fly as a family in Y (much to the bemusement of my friends and some of the CSDs who recognise me) as I do not want them to grow up treating F as an entitlement, but a luxury/privilege that they'll have to earn themselves.

Four seats in Y, kids stretched out sleeping across us, and I will often give my wife a cuddle / embrace - there is nothing more satisfying than a happy family.

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Chester - just a further thought (and yes, you are extremely condescending) - if you have a problem with people showing each other affection in public (gay or straight), I suggest you consider a trip to Dubai or Malaysia. The culture and laws there should suit you perfectly (and that a not a criticism of either place at all, merely an observation as to Chester's compatibility with prevailing mores in certain parts of the world).

Simon

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Simon and Flytoomuch

Neither of you have touched a nerve and neither am I telling you how to live your lives. I live in a community where respect works both ways. We dont have any of the issues (1 - 5) above that you describe. It seems to stem from an inability of fellow passengers and crew to respect the different ways and cultures. I am not too sure why you created the list, as it has no relevance to my post.

You Brits are so defensive - just have an open mind to learn how others live, thats all. If any of you are offended by the fact that I dont particlaly want to eat my lunch next to a women breast feeding, well I wont take issue with that either.

You too have a great weekend

Chester

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Fair point, Chester. Perhaps we're defensive like all junior partners.

Simon

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Hey Simon

That was a quote from your PM not our President. I noticed though how there was no response from Mr. President, now thats irony.

Chester

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SimonRowberry....You and I appear to be on the same wavelength on this subject and I laughed out loud when you said you were looking forward to taking you kids into the kids zone of the first lounge.........Fantastic......but take them into the Concorde Room First and make sure you use the entrance by security. I assure you it is the best fun you will have at T5. I have never failed to get a reaction, usually a negative one, and normally before they even see the boarding passes the kids have been told to use the other entrances. Once passed the stasi like guards they love to sit at the Gold bar and order cokes.....That leaves the wife and I free to indulge in bubbles and the spa. Once bored they can usually take themselves to the First lounge and the kids zone but I have complained to BA more than once that the equipment is broken or not switched on and there never seems to be anyone available to fix it. On the last trip at Easter the Concorde Room was burtsing with kids and we spent a very pleasent hour chatting to a couple who have had all the problems we have had when travelling from obnoxious adults. My kids behaviour is generally good but at 6/7 they can have their moments including waking another passenger one night when the youngest mistook him for me......Not usre who got the biggest fright, my son or the young guy being called daddy" in the middle of the night.!!!! He was gracious and understanding but the colour had drained from his face and it was clear that he had thought his past life had just caught up with him at 36000 feet.... priceless

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I think my point is made by the fact that you guys have to resort to writing English filled with ************. I just wish you had read my post correctly, instead of taking the "Chester is anti gay" stance. My objection to couples displaying bedroom antics was directed towards straight as well as gays, so please do read posts before you go for the jugular.

As far as breast feeding is concerned, I will leave this sensitive subject alone simply because in Europe everything seems to be based around policitical correctness, which is something that I wont allow to rule my life. All I will say, though, is that you would be astonished if you could witness the flight deck cabin monitor on a night flight and I am not talking about an arm around the shoulder or babies breast feeding.

Binman62, I would go a stage further and send your children into the Concorde room ahead of you with their own boarding passes. That really gets the noses of the front door 'guard' up. I watched my son, who is still a junior proudly enter ahead of us. He asked the door person to direct him to the nearest milk shake bar................the look was priceless.

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Chester -

I did read your post carefully, and I'd sensed homophobia because you'd initially referred to a gay embrace before then adding a reference to straights, akin to a tokenism. If you are now correcting it by saying that you were referring specifically to sexual acts in a cabin being discourteous to other passengers - I would concur.

My use of ******* refers to your condescension in assuming I wait on passengers - of that, I am sure I read correctly. Your point is well made there - if you want respect, you should show some.

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Chester, old chap,

"You guys have to resort..." (plural).

I think only one of us used ***** in a post, and as far as I'm concerned, that usage was 100% justified. Anyway, I suggest we put that behind us now. Life's too short.

Thanks for the tip about kids going first into the Concorde room - I'll try that with my ten-year old.

Preparing now for 6 days in China. It's a pity that I cocked up the dates of my meetings and instead of having a day free on arrival, it's straight off the plane and literally right into meetings. C'est la vie.

Regards,

Simon

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Perhaps Chester has been flying United Airlines' old Business Class rather too much:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=meWnr8rA5Uw&feature=related

I have absolutely zero issue with someone breast feeding in public as long as it's done discreetly.

And I couldn't give two hoots if a couple - of any orientation - start canoodling on a plane.

Life's just too short!

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VK, for once we are in full agreement.

Actually, that's happening a bit too much lately, which is a worry ; )

Regards, Simon

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kiss kiss and hugs all round - before boarding of course.

Ameican travel threads are quite mundane compared to this - you are indeed a lively bunch.

As for flying United old or new, my firm has always contracted with BA as our company pilots are mainly ex BA.

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Chester,

As the Mormon rock band from Vancouver, Bachman Turner Overdrive, once sang "You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet!"

Hang around and have fun. We may get tetchy with each other at times, but the information that is exchanged is often invaluable. I know it's saved me a fortune and made my travelling a lot easier, for which I'm extremely grateful to all who've advised me.

Cheers, Simon

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Indeed Simon, it seems that this forum is filled with a vast array of characters both real and some rather quite surreal. It is very different State side in that contributors are either very staid and boring or totally foul mouthed, where ****** are replaced with the real deal. This forum though has a very unique feel and peoples characters really do show through.

I work as a part time alternative natural energy consultant, mainly in third world and Asian Countries as well as a Commercial Pilot operating longhaul for both airline and business jet charter. If I can provide contributions for any specific issues, please do let me know. Before anyone asks, I do not give any company plugs and am not authorised to upgrade or discount empty seat or empty legs!!

I still view travel as a privilege and I feel extremely honoured to work in two professions that has allowed me to meet so many interesting people.

So even though I dont drink, I will toast the forum and resepct the decorum and enjoy the debate with both like minded and sometimes unlike minded people.

Cheers to you Simon

Chester

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I've loved waking up every morning and seeing the plethora of emails telling me that there have been posts to this thread (I live in Australia, so I get to read the whole days' worth). Makes my morning walk much more enjoyable catching up on the cut and thrust via my iPhone.

I have no issue with couples (irrespective of gender) canoodling, it doesn't offend me so long as they keep it to themselves.

I have booked my family (thanks to my years of accruing AA miles) on a Business Class jaunt to UK in May 2011 (returning early July). Of course, 3 award seats in Business weren't easy to find (plus my son is on a paid infant J tickets @ 10% of full fare); so we are flying BNE (QF) PER (QF) HKG (CX) LHR.

As it will be my wife's 40th birthday, we are looking forward to 6 weeks of travelling through Europe. My daughter (will be 4 at the time of the holiday) has flown regularly, so loves planes, walking the aisle and the kid packs. She'll love the AVOD. Whilst my son is only 9 months old now, I'm sure he'll charm all the FA's. Yes, a lot of my time will be spent attending to my kids' needs, so as to make everyones's flight enjoyable.

Being the gentleman, thought I would give you all plenty of warning in case you don't want to be on (particularly) CX257 HKG/LHR leg on May 24 (as admittedly, it will be 30 hours of flying unless a bettter routing comes up - so the kids may be getting a little tetchy by then).

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Hello all, As a mum, I can understand why children are a real pain in Business. Sadly, a few years ago, my son was very ill onboard and threw up all over the business class seat. I was mortified. He really wasnt at all well. The man sitting across the aisle was great. ( thank you! ) Its hard travelling with children, and while I appreciate some mums are not good with controlling their childs behaviour, sometimes things just happen that are out of your control.

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Otley speaks out:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/fast_track/8885930.stm

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I agree with LloydA's summary of the subject above.

I have no children of my own, but I do respect the needs and contribution of the parents who are raising society's next generation. I am even relatively unperturbed by a crying baby in the long haul confined space of a business class cabin, as this is just an unavoidable sound of human life.

What I do abhor and cannot excuse is the indulgence of children's VOLONTARY and socially toxic behaviour in a confined public space, a space for which the other passengers have invested a large sum of money PRECISELY to secure space and tranquility. To impose your children's unnecessary and hugely value destroying behaviour on the cabin is unconscionable and I would have no qualms explaining this to your face, any of the other posters, if the need should arise in flight.

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... and here is the video link for the programme to be shown tonight (just in case you are out).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/fast_track/8892746.stm

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Without getting overly hostile, simplistic or ecological, I think many posters, especially those have chose to be childless, will agree with what I'm about to say.

On a planet teetering on the brink of disaster precisely because of overpopulation, expecting us to feel all warm and fuzzy because some adults take it upon themselves to procreate is galling, to say the very least. The world needs less people, not more.

Since having children is 100% voluntary, people that choose that option are 100% responsible for their offspring until that offspring becomes an adult at 18 or so.

Since this forum is devoted to the discussion of obnoxious kids in premium cabins on airliners...the oft-commented basic rules are:

1. Adults fly in premium cabins specifically for enhanced comfort.

2. An unruly child affects that comfort, thus robbing the passengers of at least part of what they thought they paid for. Before the predictable comments rain down: not ALL children misbehave on airplanes (yours are precious and as perfect as the Von Trapps, of course), and not ALL adults behave on flights, either. But any sentient adult traveler knows the odds of the first happening far outnumber those of the latter.

3. In a premium cabin, parents are absolutely responsible for every noise and action their children make. Expecting other passengers to shrug and give a sweet smile and wink over screaming babies, toddlers having tantrums, or older kids running, kicking seat backs, fighting, or throwing things is blatantly unfair, and attempts to shift the burden of child-rearing and child-control away from the parents and to innocent bystanders.

Bravo to OzGlobal for suggesting these common-sense guidelines be spelt out to nonchalant parents face-to-face.

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Hi All,

I think most people know of my views on this subject!

Here's an interesting case study for you.

Monday this week, I flew LX189 PVG-ZRH in Business Class. Whilst waiting in the Star Alliance Lounge at Pu Dong, a family entered and sat opposite me. The family comprised a mother and father, a little boy around six years of age and another in a pushchair (he was 15 months old, I found out).

We got chatting and they told me they were flying to Zurich. I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't admit that I thought "Oh bugger, I hope they're Star Alliance Gold and are actually in economy, otherwise this could be an interesting 13 hour flight!"

I thought precisely that, to be honest.

Anyway, they were seated a few rows behind me in the Business cabin, as it happened. The kids were impeccably well behaved. The only time I heard any noise from them was on decent into ZRH when the tiny one started crying (probably because of the pressure change). They were superb. I would also add that the family was Singaporean Chinese, which may be of interest when one considers some of the comments raised by others in earlier posts on the ethnicity question regarding children's behaviour.

The kids and the parents were great. This contrasted with my outward flight which was spoilt by a drunk 25-year old who got annoyed that the crew wouldn't let his economy-ticket carrying floozy remain in the Business cabin. He was an offensive and obnoxious boor who annoyed all the other passengers in his vicinity. He actually threw a pillow at the cabin crew, which missed and hit my glass and knocked the contents all over me. Let's just say I "told him his fortune." So, it's not just kids who throw things, by any means.

As I have said before, this thread should be called "Obnoxious Adults in Business Class" because, in my (extensive) experience, they VASTLY outnumber troublesome children.

Perhaps we should extend your code to these sorts of bloody fools? And spell it out as well to these nonchalant pains-in-the-ass? What do you think, Oz and Rick?

Regards, Simon

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Simon,

Totally agree. Obnoxious behaviour is the issue. My experience of the proportionality of adults vs children does not agree with yours, but that is just our different experiences and perhaps routes.

The topic of this thread is the major problem of voluntary misbehaviour by children and their thoughtless parents. But let's start another thread on adults and I'll look forward to it. Let's just say that I'm at a stage in life where I find I no longer need to later reflect on what I SHOULD have said.

As for you're 25 y/o pillow throwing delinquent, I'd have told him something of his fortune before he got the chance to take out my wine glass.

Cheers.

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Airlines should introduce a system where kids who misbehave during a flight get met by officials on landing and parents and kids are escorted to a room to all calm down.

Meanwhile tired and tearful passengers can pick up their bags and get out of the baggage hall before the unruly families are unleashed onto the conveyor belt.

Families who cause problems on three flights or more could lose loyalty points.

A similar thing is done for adults who misbehave.

If you can't explain to your kid that they have to be reasonably well behaved while flying in a 2 grand seat next to other paying adults then you've probably lost touch with reality anyway and best to keep downing the G&Ts and hope your kids don't one day end up getting arrested in Dubai for lack of consideration for other people's beliefs and peace.

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Some years ago now I was travelling JER-SOU on Flybe and was sat in I think 19A. A woman with a baby sat next to me and was accompanied by what I assume was the husband and much older some (in 19C&D). As she sat down she looked at me, laughed and said "looks like you have drawn the short straw" and proceeded to dump said child in my lap to hold whilst she put bags in the overhead locker and get the extension belt from the cabin crew.

When we arrived at SOU she went to give me the child again and said "no give it to you husband". So why didn't the husband sit next to me? Classic example of parent enforcing their offspring on another passenger. To be fair the child was okay throughout the journey.

Obnoxious parents and not even in business class!!

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Sums up Flybe as far as I'm concerned, Nige!

Still on for 23rd?

Cheers, Simon

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As Simon's recent post shows, it really is down to luck a little whether your fellow travellers provide a good or bad experience. We all travel extenesively and when we are asked by friends which in our opinion is the best airline, our answers will usually be the one we remember as giving us the best service.

The point is, that if pax and crew alike put more smiles on their faces the inside of the metal tubes would be far far happier places.

The thread should just be called "OBNOXIOUS" becasue childen, adults and crew can at times all fall into that category.

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An interesting twist on this topic, since we so often blame parents for not taking responsibility for their children.

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/post/2010/08/southwest-flight-attendant-takes-baby-after-slap-from-mother-/108717/1?csp=TravelC

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The solution may be at hand....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1307156/Childless-families-family-section-planes.html

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Further to my reply on 26 July, I thought I'd give all you regular ex-LHR pax a heads up, in case you don't want to be on my return flights with 2 young children next year.

Managed to get Business for me and my son (he'll be 21 months old) all the way; whilst I have treated my wife and daughter (she'll be just over 4) to First Class for the LHR/HKG/MEL sectors:

5 Jul CDG/LHR BA 303, connecting to

5 Jul LHR/HKG QF 30

8 Jul HKG/MEL QF 30

Can't say I didn't warn you ;D

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Bottom line: noisy, unruly, ill-behaved children need to be controlled and it is the responsibility of the parents to do so. Why should passengers in any cabin have to endure such disruptive behaviour? One is paying a premium to fly in either Business or First and we expect and deserve comfort both from the airline and our fellow passengers.

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Actually chinaboy8 - passengers in any cabin should not have to put up with disruptive behaviour.

As I recently recounted at the Forum meet up, I regularly travel "down the back", and whilst I fully accept (in any class) that there may be crying babies or hyper-active children, what I can't tolerate is willfully disruptive children, who are travelling with their parent(s) who behaviour horrendously - kicking/pushing the back of your seat for 2hrs is firmly in this list - and whose parents do not discipline them telling them to stop.

Not only is this showing how badly behaved the children are, it is showing the lack of respect paying passengers have for one another. And that's the same respect I 'expect' regardless of whether I pay £50, £500 or £5000 for my ticket.

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why is it that most parents except everybody else around them to love children, especially their own offspring? There is a lot of truth in the expression "children should be seen and not heard!" And that particularly applies to flights!

Signed

Mr Grumps

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I am only in my twenties and have flown countless times in business and first since I was sixteen, in practically every single route I have flown in, the problem was not me or the teenager, but the drunk business men, requesting more alcohol boisterously, or making passes at the cabin crew. Failing that there are usually of young men and women who travel together and have this idea that just because they sit in half the cabin, think that it is there's to do as they please.

Secondly why is this issue only applicable to passengers in business and first, since the arguments mentioned above should applicable to all cabins or none.

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Searider has valid points here. Actually worse than children will be business men on mobile phones once that cheap nonsense is allowed on flights! and the thought of drunken business men on phones - yuk!

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Searider - Good post , this backs up my original coment back in July on this topic "Regardless of which class of cabin people fly all passengers should observe sensible etiquette and take responsibility for their actions and those of their minors"

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On Sep 10, Thai Airways, BKK-KUL, C-class. The flight was one-third full, two passengers in their 30s sitting two rows behind me, they talk loud, laugh loud and sing loud all the way from BKK to KUL.

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npchuaMY - I hope you joined in with a good rendition of RULE BRITANNIA!

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Have read much of this with interest. Does it mean that it is OK to let 'obnovious kids' run riot in Economy, and that it is Ok for drunken businessmen and pushy mothers to annoy fellow passengers there as well, so long as C and F are quiet. Surely we should consider others whatever class we are travelling.

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Have to agree with you on that point BarryHodge.

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You've hit the nail on the head, Barry.

Simon

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Well said, Barry.

If others had this attitude, the world might just be a better place.

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Perhaps the issue of disturbance on an airplane can be approached from another angle. Traveling is stressful and some people choose to spend a little more not for the free booze or overly jolly cabin attendants but because they want the old fashioned concept of space and quiet. I have often wondered what it is that certain airlines cannot understand and make a quiet class. That is, everyone respects an atmosphere of calm and quiet, including the cabin attendants, passengers of any age. Northwest, now defunct, had excellent food, a wonderful service from JFK to Narita, and some lovely cabin attendants, but toward its demise it became no longer competitive with Singapore Airlines or Cathay Pacific because some of their cabin attendants could not shut up for a second. It is our first Amendment run amok, forgetting that calm passengers are easier to deal with. KLM's staff, before Air France took over, were for many decades friendly, unobtrusive and efficient. However, they don't always know what to do when businessmen of no particular importance talk too loud on the cellphone right after boarding, or run off their mouths with other businessmen, drinking too much without the ability to hold liquor. On the acela from NYC to Washington, DC there is always a quiet car because too many congress members asked for it, and the quiet is such a luxury. It made you feel human again. Even there however, some couples insist on chatting, about nothing. As to the issue of children versus adults being the cause of noise and space disturbance, if quiet is the factor, then no one ought to be offended. It would be a question of choice instead of liberty. People who are quiet ought to choose to be without others who are quiet. What's wrong with that?

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Dinosaur: spot-on!

Don't we all would like to travel in peace and quite in all forms of transport and and in any class?

Noise distubance caused by adults or children is not welcomed by any travellers in any situation.

The rolling out of the in-flight connectivity has caused concern by many passengers for the fear of increased noise level in the cabin by mobile phone users in-flight and many airlines have assured the passengers that they have a way of switching that service off when warranted.

May be in it's time for us travellers to avocate to the airlines of establishing a clearer policy on how to handle such situation by their cabin crew. This policy should starting off with a self imposed "softer" conversation by their cabin crew while talking in their galley during the quite period where passengers are resting.

I believe SAS once had a sleeping zone for passengers who would like a quiet area with no distubance but may be not viable commercially.

Wish you all have a "peace and quite" travel experience!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Sorry to add to this again, is there are thread for screaming babies (ie. infants under 2yrs old) in business class ?!

While I say 'Amen to Barry' & FlyingChinaMan - re: peace & quiet.

Yet again I had the misfortune to be in biz class where Virgin yet again puts a mother with ~18month smack bang in the middle of a the cabin, not at the front, or back...no in the middle... and said child cries continuously nearly 2hrs...

OK, so debate: mother paid the fare...so have the rest of us. Is it too much to ask at that £$£$ price a biz ticket costs now, to have Biz & First designated as "QUIET Cabins"..

While you can remonstrate adults and kids - and no doubt soon to be inflight connectivity for mobiles (why for heavens sake....) will it be like a train, where disgust can be voiced ?!

"Not only is this showing how badly behaved the children are, it is showing the lack of respect paying passengers have for one another. And that's the same respect I 'expect' regardless of whether I pay £50, £500 or £5000 for my ticket."

What can be done about babies, without looking like a unsocialable orge complaining (move to another carriage in a train). Bury your head in headphones - turn volume up loud, wish they'd start the inflight entertainment...try to go to sleep... how do you get respect from babies who are oblivious to the misery they're contributing to in the entire biz cabin ?!

Yes, I've had screaming kids in duet, in Economy on a vacation flight, you hate it, but kind of accept it...but Biz class ?! Come on guys...put some policy in place, or at least apologise to full fare paying passengers...rather than shrug your shoulders and ignore the wailing, like the rest of us are trying to do.

OK rant over... and yes I DO like young kids outside an aircraft, just not screaming crying ones on expensive biz class flights :-((

Obnoxious kid or adult over a endlessly crying one...any day.

This is the THIRD time its happened, and my patience is wearing thin...excuse me fellow travellers, rant over. Happy quiet travelling everyone ;-)

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This is becoming cyclic. I suppose this site is just a 'punchbag' for stress relief of stressed-out jetlaggers.

Maybe you should travel Turkish, where curent ads would suggest you can expect football training to be conducted in the Business cabin, and only the goalkeeper's skills come between your drink and the errant ball.

It all comes down to the quality of the Crew. And personal example.

Has it occurred to the Angel that 3 in a row is long odds for a losing streak - maybe he's scaring the babies?

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I couldn't agree more about badly behaved kids and screaming babies! While some of the reasons may be due to apathy from parents, babies encountering genuine discomfort, etc., we should actually encourage parents to take their kids on board only if there is a genuine need or if they can afford to do so. It is really unfair to expect other full paying passengers to put up with these discounted passengers. How about airlines imposing full fare or extra tax for these passengers? After all, they may incur cost from soiled seats, providing milk or infant food, toys, games, etc to these young passengers paying discounted fares? The airlines also suffer loss of goodwill from full paying passengers. If the situation is bad in the business class, imagine how much worse it is in the cramped economy seats having to put up with these young passengers? So airlines, how about this proposition?

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SIAPassenger2010

I do not have kids (only a little boy at heart!) and therefore I do not need to defend parents travelling with noisy kids/babies BUT your argument of FULL fare passengers should not put up with DISCOUNTED obnoxious kids/babies is flawed! It implied that obnoxious kids/babies travelling on full fare will have the right to make themself a nuisance to the other fellow passengers BUT not the ones paying discounted price!

In my mind no passengers, young or old, full or discounted fares should disturb their fellow passengers unduly. I certainly do like to be made a victim on board a plane.

May be it is time rename this thread to nuisanse passengers!!!

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There's a time and place for everything, and as far as a bratty kid goes in premium class (or equally boorish adult) I cite a canoe for 1, an unpopulated golf course (or maybe on a driving range to be used as a target instead of a yardage sign), or finally the Augean stables.

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Heh. On my recent BA246 back from Buenos Aires, there was a whole bratty family in Club World on the short leg from BA to Sao Paulo.

12 year-old (or thereabouts) kids bouncing between the seats (who had to be ticked off by the cabin crew), paterfamilias gabbling on his mobbly before the nosewheel even touched down... Thank God they deplaned there, because the thought of having them all the way to LHR made my blood run cold. Augean stables - yeah, but I think the Spartans tackled the problem earlier.

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Had a discussion about this last week while sitting in the Etihad lounge with a fellow passenger. He told a story:

He was flying from JFK to London and a family of four took up seats just behind him, about 30 minutes into the flight both children started crying getting louder and louder. After about 15 mins he stood up to see two screaming children with both parents asleep wearing eye masks and ear plugs. A crew member saw him and said, "Sorry we have tried to wake them but it seems they have both taken sleeping pills" The children continued to cry despite the best efforts of crew and a woman sitting nearby. After about four hours it seems the children cried themselves to sleep. Shortly before arrival the parents awoke to a number of crew and passengers confronting them. Incredibly their response was laughter and the woman saying to a number of people, "I don't care what you think and you can't do anything about it".

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Charles-P, unbelieveable and inexcusable!! I would have shook the parents relentlessly to wake them up. Children will be children, but parents must be held accountable for their children's behaviour. It is a shame no legal action or formal reprimand was possible against the extremely negligent parents! Thanks for sharing that story, wow!

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Well with regard to the "relentless shaking" I agree however during my flight after hearing this I also mentioned it to an Etihad steward and he said it was a difficult problem as it may leave crew open to charges of assault. He said that he had heard of a mother who ignored a crying baby being encouraged to do so by a bottle of water being "accidently" pored over her.

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Brilliant! And so subtle.

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The story shows why there is a need for each flight to have a CSD (or equivalent) who is able to act with authority. If it were an adult acting in a similar fashion, the airline would have taken a very different approach. I am not suggesting for one minute that any force should have been used on the children to behave, after all kids are kids, but more force should have been made to wake the parents up. After all, it is the parents who are liable for their childrens actions.

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Increasingly I find that the "I don't care what you think and you can't do anything about it" attitude is becoming more and more common.

I have been following the 'Random Acts of Kindness' philosophy for about five years and the looks of astonishment followed by happiness I see always improve my day.

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Great story being told. Next time I should have a water pistol on board ready to be filled with very hot water designed to aim at irresponsible parents and possible uncontrolable kids.

There is a child in everyone and we play the kid games!!!

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Well said Charles-P.

I think that's an excellent policy.

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Etihad had it all, but we found that the Purser lied and the air hostess was East European pretty but inefficient and off-putting. We would not fly with them anymore. Noisy kids: Cabin crew and parents abdicate. On our recent flight on Delta from JFK to Barcelona we were seated 2 rows forward of a mother and child. Mother could not deal with a loud and hysterical child. Cabin crew simply disappeared. I have long stopped expecting action from cabin crew. So I turned and shouted "How dare you disturb people like this? Where the hell do you think you are? This is not your living room! This is a public place where people have paid 6000 for some peace and quiet. How dare you drag a child who cannot behave into First Class? Who the hell do you think you are!" Result? The child stopped. That's good What's bad? No one said a word. Couldn't you cowards on that flight say "hear, hear" or even more effectively, everyone stand up and face the offending nightmare family! It's not only the nightmare families. It's also the other passengers who have no backbones!

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Dinosaur......I think your name says it all. I have read your post several times in the hope that you were trying to be funny, but alas I think you may actually be telling the truth. If you had spoken to me in that way on public transport I would have had you arrested for air rage. Shocking behaviour, utterly unacceptable and your should be ashamed.

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Proving once again that it is "obnoxious parents" rather than children that are often the problem. That being said I continue to believe that there is no place for children in either Business or First.

For every well behaved, quiet child there are far more loud, ignorant, annoying others. On a recent trip to Zurich my wife suggested to the mother of a noisy child (who also swore a lot) that,

"he might be happier sitting out on the wing".

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As for Virgin: You are asking for it to fly them. We have found our first class experience with them unbearably amateurish and reminded us of "Little Britain." I have to say that the ground crew in London for First Class was savvy and fun. I think they take all the rejects from BA for their cabin crew. On the flight we took the cabin was garish and they featured a chair massage where the pretty girl merely taped her fingers on my shoulders. I said to her, "Would you quit dancing around and get with it!"

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First Class on Virgin?

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Binman62 I think we may all agree with you to a certain extent but the other side of the coin is "do you simply put up with the selfish "non behaviour" of the adult in charge?" Why did the kid shut up after that incident? Parent took charge at last. Maybe if the crew had had a quiet word earlier or if the parent had taken some responsibility, it wouldn't have got that far. Spoilt kids don' t grow on trees, they are the product of their upbringing. I have some sympathy for anyone who has to put up with the kind of behaviour dinosaur encountered.

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lloydah....I think it was great deal more telling that no one backed him up!. I have been there, screaming child, utterly our of control and completly out of charecter, then suddenly nothing. It is awful being a parent in those circumstances. The last thing you need is some boor making the situation worse.. This is not an excuse for bad behaviour from kids or parents or from boorish passengers who in my experience far exceed problems kids by a factor of 10.

It is public transport, get life.... or get a private jet.

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Binman62, I agree with you that there are far more boorish, arrogant, spoilt wannabes flying in Premium Cabins on company expenses who are obnoxious and rude to crew than misbehaving children. But rarely are they as disturbing to other passengers as a misbehaving, screaming child. That said, a misbehaving child is the responsibility of the parent, and the parent should be held accountable. Whilst it is public transport, I certainly would expect and demand action by the crew and definitely by the parent to control an unruly child. I too have sympathy for a parent with an infant that cries due to the air pressure or other issues, but the story from Dinosaur seems to be more of an issue with a child, not a baby or infant, and the parent should be able to control such a situation. If not, they should not be allowed on the plane. Did his rant to the parent go too far, probably, but it did get a result!

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Dinosaur - perhaps you should certainly reconsider whether you were sitting in a public place. I would suggest that there are not many 6000 dollar or sterling pubic places.

I would suggest you were sharing a very private and privileged place with fellow passengers. Screaming children should not be dealt with by an abussive adult!

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"I would suggest that there are not many 6000 dollar or sterling pubic places."

Um, ask Berlusconi....

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i think we are talking about different kinds of "old birds".

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Travellers:

This is one of the most heated debates on BT. A very difficult topic to discuss as we all have different views.

NOBODY welcome excessive noises from baby/kids or adults in ANY cabin! The heading of this thread has sown the seed for this argument. Why? Rightly or wrongly travellers in premium class tend to associate and expect a quiet heaven in their travel cabins as have firmly believed that they (or their company) have paid for this priveledge.

As some of you have pointed out that a commerical flight is a form of public transport. However it is also the duty of adult parents to "manage" their baby/kids so as not to cause excessive disturbance to the other fellow passengers in this PUBLIC mode of transport since nobody owns it. The cabin crew should really do a little more to ease the tension in such situation but their power is limited.

The best thing is to approach and talk to these parents face-to-face and showing some sympathy towards them. At the same time expressing your desire of wanting to have some peace and quiet. They would certainly do something If these are reasonal parents.

If all that fails, you can execise what ever your consider fit to display your displeasure towards these inconsiderate people. (Nothing illegal as you don't want to be arrested for an air rage passenger!!!).

Personally I have secret weapon. I took a vocal class for a Peking Opera singing (very high pitch) and paid good money for it but have not practice since. It might just come into handy.

I may be have to rename myself as the SingingChinaman next!!!

May your travel world be a peaceful one! (pun intended)

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FlyingChinaman. This is indeed one of the most heated debates and rightly so. Of course parents must control the kids but they are only kids and we should not, and must not expect them to be little adults sitting in silence for extended periods of time, no matter what the class. I will not accept bad behaviour from my kids and never have, but neither I am going to subdue a child's exuberance or natural instincts.

Part of the issue is the awful service from most airlines, they simply do not know how to deal with children. The child meals are generally rubbish and would not be found on a school lunch menu. In-flight entertainment is vital yet which airline provides child size headphones in any class.

If you have ever had a kids bag from BA or Qantas they are simply crap....Cathay had a good one a few years back but that lasted months.

I fly with BA, generally in First and whilst it is great for me, the crew seem incapable of recognising that a 6 year does not want or need table clothes, little salt and pepper mills and glasses they cannot hold. They want an IFE system that works, with games they can identify with and a headset that does not slip off. Some first runs kids movies would be great along with a screen that can be viewed and has been cleaned recently.

I want to know the crew will automatically impose a viewing restriction to prevent access to adult content and that a childs food tastes can be met, especially in First and Club.

Bottom line is that unless airlines do something to entertain and divert attention of children then they child will become curious, restless and ultimately bored. They do not have the same ability to divert into an alcoholic haze as so many adults do.

The whole experience of flying with kids can be pretty daunting, we all know how frustrating and difficult it can be to get through an airport when on our own. For someone travelling with young children this is magnified and they have all the additional concerns of getting feed, strollers and the rest of paraphernalia on to a plane without losing the kids!. For most parents there is also the worry of how our offspring will behave and this adds to the stress and kids spot this.

Parents and kids need a great deal more service and assistance and it surely cannot be beyond the wit of the marketing departments to come up with a product to deal with kids 0-15.

What they do not need is, as MartynSinclair stated, some abusive adult screaming at them. You would not accept this on the ground or in their school ( people get sacked for less) and I for one am not prepared to accept it from some obnoxious boor on public transport.

When was the last time you were pushed out of the way by a kid seated 5 rows behind you when getting off a plane?

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Binman,

I totally and wholeheartedly agree with you. An excellent post which brought a great deal of perspective to the issue. Thank you.

I think that dinosaur's actions were crass and probably ultimately counter-productive. He's lucky not have got a slap from the (evidently) ignorant parents into the bargain. I also agree with all who have said that "it's the parents' fault." Of course it is. However, "you can take a horse to water..." (or as a colleague of mine memorably once said "You can take a whore to Chaucer, but you can't make her think.").

I also agree re the quality of kids' meals. SK seem to think an acceptable kids' meal in Europe is a cold salad, a kit kat and (in summer) an ice-cream (this is on a Business Class fare that is 90% of my fare). Crap, as Binman says. It doesn't get much better on long-haul (although AY, LX and LH make more of an effort).

On one of my last trips in J-class with my (now 11-year old) son, he was somewhat bemused to be given a colouring kit by the Flight Attendant.....(I can't remember the airline but I think it was LH). He's now much more at home finding a quiet corner in the Senator Lounge, getting a glass of lemonade and settling down to quietly play his Nintendo DS (with the sound turned off, natch). That's if he can concentrate given the loud, boorish, self-important businessmen shouting down their mobile phones who are inevitably sitting all around him. The same ignorant, stupid prats that look down their noses at a quiet, well-behaved child who, in their perverse and twisted opinion, has no right to be in the Lounge in the first place.

Regards,

Simon

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Binman:

Was it part of your been there and done that experience travelling with your kids!!

Putting the joke aside, you are rightly in pointing out that most airlines have not done much about keeping kids "entertained" in flight. I guess they all are only concentrating on adult BUSINESS travellers that the kids are overlooked somehow.

I still feel it is very important to communicate with parents travellng with young children when there is a noise issue and most decent parents would try their best to smooth their unsettled younger children, the best way they can.

An openner like "it must be very hard for you travelling with your baby/kid(s)!. I hope I'll be able to get some sleep!" will often work as no reasonal person would want to disturb the others unduly.

I must say I have been very lucky with my frequent travels and have had few problems. Perhaps one or twice non-stop noisy baby/kids in the last 10 years!

Last week I had a lovely American family of 5 (parents with girl twins and an older boy) travelling very near me in Business and the twins only cried for a few minutes twice on an 10 hour flight! I have even talked to the mother before take off and played with the girls on occasions. Obnoxious kids are a minority but to the kiddy-intolerance passengers then it is just one too many!!!

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Hi FC,

I think your approach has a lot of merit. I also don't think you're quite as "kiddy-intolerant" as you'd like us to think! ;-)

All the best,

Simon

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I like kids but obviously prefer not to have excess noise while trying to rest/sleep in-flight (who would!) but I also reckon there are times willing parents are unable to do anything and I accept that is a normal behavour of children travelling in a public environment.

I recall many of the angry eaders were opposed to irresponsible/unreasonable parants not attempting anything during a stressful situation which is a different kettle of fish all together!

Lastly I tend to dramatize things a bit such as my Peking Opera singing but it makes good reading!!!

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It certainly does, FC.

S

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Thank you!

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To clarify the situation about the kid being obnoxious and screamed up, this dinosaur did his observing for quite a good number of hours. The child was abusive to his mother. The mother, on the other hand, was very inappropriate in her tone of voice with the child. Her voice was as loud or louder than the child's and the two of them were carrying on as usual, from listening to their loud and cantankerous interchanges for over 3 hours -- non-stop. The child and the mother stopped arguing because a stranger finally told them that it is not OK for them to air their dysfunction in public. Some of you guys may not understand that there are many people who have grown up without ever being told that disturbing other people is not OK. Some of you clever Brits should read your "Summerhill" experiment, where adults demand as much right from children as equals. Children are young. They are not morons. Someone has to tell them once that it is not all right to run over adults just because they are smaller. Parents don't parent and teachers don't teach. No wonder some of them became unruly. Listen again. Both mother and child stopped because some stranger told them it was not OK to disturb other people! Airlines don't do it, cabin attendants don't do it. Some of you guys are so cool you wouldn't want to be a dinosaur, so you end up being chicken stewing in obnoxious noise pretending it's cool to be in business or First? Listen to yourselves. You are venting in a section called 'obnoxious kids in business. Why are you even tempted to wander in here if you are not concerned about it. So go suffer. In NYC some twenty years ago, teens started carrying boom boxes on their shoulders walking down the street. Without missing a beat everyone told them off, and within a year it disappeared. Perhaps none of us ever dreamt that we might want to do that ourselves. Not so with cell phones. We are so annoyed by people talking loudly on their cell phones talking about things we do not want to have to hear, but not enough of us want to kill the cell phones because it is a convenience. So we wait and hope people start getting the idea that it is not so cool to talk loudly on the cell phone. But you know, you can joke all you want about dinosaurs, but manners were taught. And it was far more pleasant when people who could afford some luxury also minded their manners. Children for one thing do not realize that their voices are higher than they think. If parents don't tell them nicely that it might disturb people, on a regular basis, how are they going to know. Worse, ignorant parents shout back at them, not realizing that their children are not deaf. They are just naturally a little louder. I am going around in a circle because I think you guys don't know that children are louder, and they don't know it. If I had told the parents nicely what I just said, they'd probably be offended as you gents are! But to show them that it does work obviously was effective. She seemed relieved that the child behaved for at least 2 hours and then started talking again normally, meaning louder than needs be, but the mother no longer screamed back, which then did not provoke the child to become hysterical. OK. one last time. A child is louder than you'd wish. If the parent thinks that the child is deaf and shouts back at the same level, then it is bedlam, and the child gets hysterical. Somewhere someone needs to allow a parent to learn quickly that to reply in a loud voice provokes the child to be hysterical, since they don't know. Money does not educate. Some of you have observed that quiet parents have quiet children. That is what's at work. Perhaps an innovative airline might want to hand out amusing material about noise and disturbance to passengers so that no one has to confront anyone and make sure that loudness in confined spaces invades other passengers' rights. After all the TV viewing audiences in movie houses talk to each other as if it is their own living room, until SONY took over some of our movie houses, and these days they show a short trailer about talking in the theater disturbs the enjoyment of the film by others. People have stopped talking loudly to each other. Similarly Carnegie Hall begins a concert by a cell phone ringing loudly. Everyone looks around in horror! "Who's phone is ringing?!" Then the voice over the loudspeaker says, "Please turn off your cell phone so that it would not ring during the performance. Thank you." And you know no cell phones ringing during the performance. From 2000 people that works. And the Director of Carnegie Hall is British! Airlines pussyfoot with their workers, with their passengers, ignore there are children. So what happens. You guys are happy to suffer. You condemn anyone who might do anything effective. What a bunch of willy-nillies! Parents don't know how to parent if they are never taught or shown how to. One time I was flying in tourist on Air India from JFK to Heathrow. The young India couple in front was traveling, probably for the first time with their baby. The baby started crying, and they didn't know what to do. They were told by the ignorant cabin attendant to lay the baby down flat on the middle seat which the airline nicely blocked out for them. But that made the baby cry some more. So being a dinosaur, meaning a good-hearted busy body who wouldn't take any nonsense, I told the man to hold the baby and put the side of his head one the left side of his chest so that the baby can hear his heartbeat. The baby instantly stopped crying. AFter a while the baby started crying again, so I said to the man that he could walk the baby around. And the baby was content again. He alternated this and everyone had peace. Now I realized that his wife obviously would have none of this, and went to sleep on her own, leaving the business of the baby to him. I wasn't going to sleep with a crying baby, and the film was lousy. So at one point I asked him if he would like for me to walk the baby. He was very glad I did, and the two of us alternated and the baby was happy, he had some rest, and no one was disturbed. I have seen this once on Singapore airlines when an air hostess was willing to be me. You would think that the wife might co-operate! So as one of you said, " it's ultimately the parents." But a lot of parents have grown up as single children who have not been used to give and take, and these days if you have the money to spend no one dares hold you responsible for some manners. Manners guys. That's what it boils down to. If I were not big (not fat, just plain big.) I would actually fly tourist class. I find the comfort in business and first, but the obnoxiousness is far more pronounced from adults and children in business and first than in tourist. Anyone ever tried premium, but I think there is more leg room but the seat still doesn't recline and my problem is shoulder width. It's greater than the width of a tourist seat back. God punishes!

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To LindsayW: Have you flown yet? If not yet, with these long hauls you might teach your child the trick of holding her nose and blowing air so that her ears would pop. That is most often what ails a child, blockage because of air pressure change. It's painful and they cry because they are frightened. As for the baby, holding the baby and with its ear to your heart and walking it usually works like a miracle. And if you are already planning it, you'll probably do just fine. It's the parents who abdicate that usually is the problem.

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Dinosaur,

I'll beat VK to it: "Paragraphs, please, old chap. Paragraphs!"

Regards,

Simon

PS Oh. And two points of accuracy, if I may? Firstly, I doubt if we are all "you Brits" as you so derogatorily refer to those from the UK. You seem hung up on nationality. How relevant is it, if at all, that the Carnegie Hall Director is British, Mongolian or Sami? (The latter refers to the indigenous population of Lapland, as I am sure you know).

Second: you seem to be the one doing the venting, rather than "us" (it seems to be a habit of yours - you vented on the plane in the example you quoted, and you seem so proud of boasting of it. Now you are venting on here. Seemingly with narry a breath taken in your penultimate posting).

I think the rest of us are "observing" and "commenting," rather than "venting." As VK would say "Look the three words up in a dictionary and note the differences."

PPS Judging from your second last posting, one wonders whether an anger management course might help you?

PPPS You have chosen the most appropriate soubriquet of anyone in this Forum, in my humble opinion.

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dinosaur, we aren't travelling until 23 May. We'll give both our children something to drink and/or eat when we are taxiing out on each flight, something they are used to from our frequent flying here in Australia. I'll keep your idea in mind.

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Dont you just love it when 'us Brits' are given lessons in child care by an American.

The land where 5 year olds turn up in primary schools with loaded guns.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2011/01/28/dnt.fl.child.drops.gun.in.class.wjxt?iref=allsearch

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I see firework in this current tran-Atlantic spat. Just in time for the Chinese New Year next week!

Seriously nationality has nothing to do with parental behavours. It is all down to the individuals.

If Dinoseur chooses to "educate" these uninformed parents of the voice level facts, by all means do so but try presenting it in a friendly and not in a condescending way. Educating the public is a slow and frustration way but it might help to increase the awareness of respecting the other passengers in the vicinity. All good.

We should bombard the airlines's PR department with the suggestion of creating a "Tips and Advice on Cabin Etiquettes for a Pleasant Journey" and push it through either as a recorded announcement via the PA or intergrate this with the safety instruction demo video. If the major airlines were to take such actions, there will be a lot more happier travellers!

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I've flown on my own with my child to Australia and back at least once a year for the last 5 years. She is now 7. Never had a problem.

You can see the "uh-oh" look on some peoples faces when they see they are sitting next to a child, but I adopt the attitude of keeping awake for the entire 24 hours to ensure she doesn't disrupt anyone else on the flight.

Its tiring, but its only 24 hours.

The one thing I can't control is if she has a nightmare and thrashes around in her sleep, which will inevitably disturb the person sitting (or even sleeping) next to her. The only think I can really do is apologise when that occurs - the seats aren't really made for sleeping!

So - you can't ban all kids as the majority of them are well behaved. If other parents for the length of the flight put their childs needs absolutely first instead of settling themselves down for the inflight movie and alcohol, then I don't think there would be as much of an issue. Sure you are always going to get one or two incidences, no matter which class you are sitting in, but I'm afraid that's just bad luck. I've experienced worse incidences with adults in flight that I have with any child!

The second worst flight I have ever had, was Sydney to London, and I had three toddlers under the age of 4 sitting in the row in front of me!! They all had tantrums at one point or another with one of them loudly declaring "Stop the plane I want to get off". I won't share what thoughts passed through my mind at the time! But kids that age have tantrums and are not reasonable or logical, and as a parent you just have to do what you can to control them in that confined space.

Someone earlier mentioned this but realistically you can't keep a row of seats in economy spare to move people to (unless you swap people) but then why should the people in the economy cabin suffer if all the kids there are behaving well? That just moves the problem without solving it. You can inform authorities on the ground if adults are not behaving properly, why not the parents of children too, for neglect?

I thought the point about improved inflight entertainment for kids was valid - How about kids size headphones for a start? And kids meals that are not full of sugar and additives that will send any child into a spin!

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Scooby7, nicely put. Likwewise, I take the responsibility of looking after my kids seriously at all times, whether it's a flight, train trip or at friends homes. I know my daughter will have a thousand questions and both will have times when they are tired, hungry, in pain or cry out in sleep - but as you mention, that is an everyday occurance that needs to be assessed and dealt with and should be the responsibility of parents, not FA's.

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Bravo Scooby7!

You have written the most constructive piece ever since this debate was started over a year ago. Instead of have two sides arguing their point of view which gets nowhere and the debate will just goes on and on forever!

You have outlined the difficulties of handling younger children in flight but you did your best to cope with the situation and to minimize the distubance to the other passengers. A smart airline should reward responsible parents with bonus air miles for their good act! It actually cost them nothing as most children are not PPF below a certain age. Far cheaper and more effective than to have a "Kid's zone" designated in an aircraft. It is not even feasible for an airline to create such area in any case.

It is a very tedious job for parents to keep check on their children for the duration of a long flight over 8 hours and they do get tired out at the end of their journey BUT since it is their decision for taking the children for a long trip, it is also their responsibility to take complete care of them during travel. Same as on the ground.

Airlines should begin looking into ways of tackling this problem by having more suitable kid's food and drink and in-flight entertainment catering to these group of young passengers. Whether there is any incentives for them to improve in this area is questionable especially in the current economic climate.

One thing the airlines can do without hugh cost is immediately to include an electronic In-flight child-care advisory (similar to the DVT video or magazine) for parents when booking an infant/child fare on the web or through a travel agency.

It would be my pleasure to have the opportunity of travelling with you and your well behaved kids on my next flight to Australia!

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This is a reply to Simon:

In response to the "B"word, it was not meant as derogatory.

Secondly it was the tone of Binman62's immediate put-down of dinosaurs, which are rather beloved in the US, that prompted the reference to the idea of, dare I say, "empire."

Who was it that said that the difference between GB and US is language, although more and more some of us have "observed" that many young people in UK speak American English with an English or UK accent. It is clear, dare I say, to this dinosaur, the spelling of certain words, and tone of voice, that different versions of English are spoken here. English is not nearly as international as some of us like to think it is.

It is noted by this dinosaur, form the previous "posts' that for certain writers, if an opinion is expressed by anotehr person, iif different, is deemed crass, whereas on the other side (pardon the opinion here) everyone is allowed an opinion, which one might disagree with, but not have to be put down or be insulted.

Living in NYC exposes us to assumptions brought here by new Americans from their former home countries that there cannot be opposing opinions co-existing. We Americans do not seek to educate. We don't educate ourselves. We like to get results. The British have given the world its international language of the 20th century.

The annoying thing to a lot of people about Americans is that we like to get results. Mind you, we don't always get results. But we think and sometimes we do get results, and we like that, and some of us brag about it.

Gee I have having a very hard time trying to be not "crass." I think I have indeed wandered into a UK dominated site. Hmm. Time to exit. Bye! Simon. It's all yours!!! You rule!

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Dinosaur: BT by default is a very UK dominated site! Which is natural as it si based in the UK and with an Asia/Pacific version.

You are not "crass" but just a little too outspoken for many on this website. There is still a lot of cultural differences between Americans and Brits of a certain age group. Younger Brits never witnessed the "Empire" are more American-friendly as they have been influenced by Hollywood and the internet contents in recent year.

It is not always necessary to be pushy to get results! Many cultures are not warm to this idea, including China.

As to your comment about the Americanization of the English spoken in the UK, I see the same thing happening in Singapore as the youth there speaks more American English nowaday whereas their parents tend to speak British style English. Again the US media influences.

You are an oddity on this site and accept it as such. Running away is self defeating!

Hope you will find too many annoying noisy kids with your future travel!

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Hi, I'm German and was flying with my daughter age 6 months to 10 about 5 times a year to the US, mostly in business, especially the first 4 years. For me it's just a courtesy to the other guests (and expectation when I travel alone), to take care of the kids. Sure kids are moe pushing in case of entertainment, etc. but we had for example never any problems and only positive comments (your daughter is very quite and nice), etc. I think it's not a question of the kids, but what parents allow their kids.

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Just came across this on Sky News website:

http://blogs.news.sky.com/familyaffairs/Post:7fe42f00-4923-4ee6-9da4-aedce5d410b2

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excellent find Lugano, or appalling find, which ever side fo the fence you sit/stand!!

On the same theme, is it discriminatory for the rich to sit in a seperate cabin merely because they can afford to???

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Two replies depending on which side of the fence you sit ;-)

Errr, no, it's not discriminatory!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Absolutely, the rich in F & C should be downgraded and put in Y, while all Y pax should be upgraded and put in F & C (even if they have to sit on each others laps)! Vive la Revolution!

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I've travelled with my two kids in long-haul business class on countless occasions. When it comes to adult passengers having an issue with kids' behaviour, I think it depends on the age of... the adult complainant.

Younger adults generally remember that, even with the best will in the world and decent parenting skills, kids will be kids.

Very often, older adults seem to have forgotten this and give you 'dagger' looks.

So, my message to 50+ travellers is... Try your hardest to remember what it was like having children. How easily we forget.

Even with the best possible parenting, sometimes kids will have their 'moments'.

Like it or not, business and first class is not the exclusive domain of adults. Although I do my utmost to get the best behaviour of my children, when I'm paying anywhere between £10,000 and £20,000 for my family to fly, am I due any less rights and customer appreciation than adult-only travellers?

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Have to agree Daytripper. I'm in that 50+ group and have two young (7+11) children who are actually very well behaved when they travel, unless there's only one kiddies gift left over when the FA hands them out, then WW3 breaks out while they sort out who will have it!!!

But it's a fact of life, parents will travel with children, and if they can afford to travel long-haul in C or F, then so be it as we are not going to leave them at home. In fact, in 30+ years of traveling as an adult, I can't recall any flight being disrupted by young children.

Maybe I've been lucky or perhaps the problem is not really as bad as some make out. And as others have pointed out, it's not only young children who are badly behaved?

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I'm with Daytripper and LP on this, as you might expect.

I also speak as a 50+ with an 11-year old, who has been travelling in C since he was a toddler. Perhaps, like LP, I'm just one of the lucky ones.

Interestingly, I note that the older my son gets, the more potentially troublesome he could be (for me, not others), although I think that reflects his wish to be more independent when travelling. He wants to be the first through security; the first in the Lounge; he'll wander off on his own in airports he knows. He's now got a thing about staying in suites rather than mere Exec Floor rooms as well....Guess that's my fault,

Notwithstanding this, at least he keeps his character traits to himself and doesn't disturb others. Yet. I guess another 10 years and he'll note the example being set by the loud boors with their mobile phones and their "I generation" (as in "Me above anyone else') attitudes. I look forward with dread.......

Regards to all,

Simon

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LuganoPirate....I have to agree with you, this is a problem that is overstated by what I would best describe as a very selfish and vocal minority.
Business traveller published the results of a "survey" on the 2nd February helping to perpetuate this myth. It suggested that a pet hate of business travellers was kids in premium classes with some 75% of 1000 who were asked, saying they wanted kids out of F&J. The survey went on to say that other pet hates were free upgrades with 18% stating this. That means 72% did not object to getting a free upgrade for themselves or others. No doubt the same people who want fare paying kids out of the cabins to allow these free upgrades.

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Binman - nice one! ;-)

Simon

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"when I'm paying anywhere between £10,000 and £20,000 for my family to fly, am I due any less rights and customer appreciation than adult-only travellers?"

On the above, its precisely that attitude that winds some people up.

No, you are not due any less rights, as long as you are in control of your childrens' discipline...or else allow your children to be disciplined by others be that staff or traveler feeling aggrieved.

Are the other poor full paying travelers minus kids or babies afforded any less rights by some self traveler ignoring or not controlling their off-spring ? No they are not. They are paying thousands too not listen to crying babies or children, but to fly long haul, in peace.

My original complaint stands, NO babies or infants under the age of 2 in First or Business - or at least offer some flights as Adult only.

Children (3yrs old +) I hope can be reasoned with to shut up, and behave, and or have their parents addressed. But babies and less than 2yrs old, often cannot be reasoned with to shut up when endlessly crying. And other surveys will conclude a "crying baby noise" as one of the most annoying sounds to put up with, especially when its not your own.

But should the rest of the fare paying cabin suffer. Yes it seems, and airline staff don't exactly do a lot about it - some policy and sympathy needs to be reviewed. Seriously. The attitude of some staff left a lot to be desired.

Whether my company or whether I use my airmiles for an upgrade (if its a personal vacation), I strongly object in Biz or First - to crying children who don't or won't stop crying....so I'm all for "no-infants or babies" flights on some routes. Sorry to be blunt based on experience.

I must add I HAVE sat by unaccompanied children, and accompanied children - and they have been faultless in biz class, I even praised their behavior & had intelligent funny chats. I agree, some children are better behaved that adults.

As for children & babies in Economy/Coach on family vacations, well a necessary fact of life to bear, and comes down to parents to controlling their children & reasoning with them. I am not adding my voice to complaints on that one, despite suffering a long haul flight or two, with crying babies and children in economy.

Ultimately for me, it comes down to CHOICE, and airlines giving First & Business customers a choice that a particular flight and cabin will be baby & infant (under 2yrs old) "free". Companies fly employees biz or first, probably because they are getting out of their employees, a full working day - who need sleep, rest on a business trip in a business class cabin of ticket that is a couple-few of thousand $$. Is peace too much to ask at that price...

I will not or never go as far as saying "child free"... sorry may be its not "Obnoxious Kids" thread, but a "No baby in Biz" thread that is needed...

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This is a great thread to return to every so often because (of course) it is one where the problem is simple to state and impossible to solve. And so we all go on.

Personally I have sat next to well-behaved children and well-behaved adults, children who slept restlessly and adults who snored loudly, children who smelled awful (a few) and adults who smelled awful (rather more) and children who made the crew's life a misery and adults who also made the crew's life a misery. You get the picture; and in fact the one situation I've not so far experienced is children who were horribly, pathetically, and uncontrollably drunk (as my last seat companion was in J class - and that was as we got on!)

I think everyone needs to accept that (a) a plane is public transport - even F class; (b) no airline offers, promises or guarantees that one's fellow travellers (adult or child) will be paragons of virtue; and (c) if they are not aforementioned Ps of V, it is just Bad Luck, and certainly not the airline's fault.

If an airline ever did offer a flight with a lower age limit (say 18), I wonder how much extra the intolerant and self-important business folk that we have all met and who are much commented on in this thread would pay.

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Binman62
I've said before on this thread that the blame for obnoxious kids should primarily lay with the parents, although this does not make a sleepless night or the nuisance of a continuing screaming infant more easy to bear.
However, your comment "survey" in inverted commas as though it was all a hoax and the words "helping to perpetuate this myth" when the results seem all too clear, seem to ignore the fact that the problem is felt by a great number of people.The survey does go some way to show that
a) it's not a myth and
b)a majority of people feel aggrieved when in this situation.

I suppose we all handle things in our own way and the confined space of the aircraft cabin with no means of getting off means some people simply build up steam until they blow. Sadly the pressures of modern life don't train us to behave as others would want us to all the time.

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Hello My name is johNson anD Im FWEE years old. iM LucKy coS DADdy takeS me abord BIG pwanes anB I sit im luvley sits whiH r very Big.

Ther r LoTS of Nice piple anD sum Grumps 2. ThE luvley ladyys and boWys Bring me sweetys and bakEd beanS sumtimes even sarnys.

OwfTen Men iN sewTs Make funny soUnds wHen They c me cOS they fiNK I wil MAKE a noyse. HA HA – U shud HERe ze fUnNI NoseS they make when thy SlEEP.

Sum pipple Drink lqwids which make them du vewy silly fings Like talk lowdly and USE very Bad wurdS. IhurD one Man sPeak abut a ClASS of Pipple ec on om y simfing. I cudnt stOP laffing, especially wHen I waS sik ALL OveR his NICe whit ShiRt

ThEN I HurD a Man GIVing free pOP say Sumfink About Mr. V K. He finkS ThIS maN Has a NAMe 666. I didn’t nOW WhaT That ment. buT HE Said BAZZA Wud Suopport HIM. Who iS BAZZA.

I Do saY Fanks to piPPLE who sPoil ME And I DO LikE the BIG sits At thE Fwont. PlEase B nYce TO me. I pwoMISe to bE A GooD Boy, But keep ThAT Mr. V K away andPLEASE Shwo More carToons and play gamEs on The Small scweEn.

FANk U for hearing ME.

JoHNSOn
Aged FWEE

By THu Way, I Do FiNk Mr VK is VEWY VEwY FunnY man HE is My KnEW HERo

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Martyn, I've just thinking about your reply to my earlier post. Seriously speaking, I suppose in a way Ryanair and Easyjet are the great equalisers in air travel. No class difference, no pre seat selection and I've never heard of anyone complaining about screaming babies on low cost carriers. I'm told you'll find city suited gents seated along with backpackers.

I'm waiting for the day, and I'm sure it will come along, when someone says they were discriminated against by not being given an upgrade on the basis of looks, race, sex or nationality?

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Simon, I read the text of your post to Mrs. LP and asked her who I was referring to? She instantly replied "Nicholas" our 11 year old! Ours does exactly the same as yours and in fact insists on gaining access to the lounge on his own merit with his FTC card. Being younger and fitter he is usually there before me anyway!

Oh dear, what have we created???

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I dunno. I have memories of flying with our two kids when they were toddlers, and it was hell for us, trying to keep them under control. And small kids don't understand jetlag.

@Martyn - please understand that the 'better' airline cabins are not reserved for the 'rich'. There's no way I'd describe myself as rich, and on business travel I actually pay the extra for biz class over and above the economy fare (which is what company rules dictate) out of my own pocket, but if and only if I can get a good deal[1].

Same goes for personal travel - I'll opt for the more comfy cabin if I reckon the price makes it worthwhile to me; otherwise not.

And in each case, I want some peace and quiet, a decent night's sleep and (above all) treatment by the cabin crew that makes flying an event to be savoured and enjoyed rather than endured.

[1] Just managed to secure a return fare LHR-SCL (BA Club World for the marathon 13-hour[2] LHR-EZE legs, and LAN economy for the 90 minute EZE-SCL hops) for two grand, which is a bargain in anyone's book.
[2] That new London-Buenos Aires flight is now, according to BA's High Life magazine, the longest non-stop flight on BA's network....

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@LuganoPirate - yes, but RyanAir doesn't fly long-haul, does it? For a short bus ride, as it were, I can put up with anything. For a 20-hour trip, it's a different matter.

(There's also the issue of trying to squeeze all my photographic kit into hand baggage within RA's hysterical 5kg limit - can't be done)

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@Daytripper

Remember that with 'rights' come 'responsibilities'. Yes, you have an absolute right to spend your money where and how you please. You also have a responsibility to ensure that you don't screw up everyone else's flight.

For the record, I'm fine with kids anywhere, any time. I understand that they will occasionally grizzle. And if they're well looked after and well brought up, then that grizzling will soon end.

Out of control kids, the product of selfish parents who should never have been allowed to breed, are a different matter entirely :-)

(Not that I'm suggesting yours are, of course: I merely lay out what I consider to be the acceptable and unacceptable extremes of behaviour)

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Tired Old Hack - hard to disagree with anything you said.

LP - glad it's not just me! By the way, I think someone did claim on this Forum fairly recently that certain airlines operated an upgrade policy based on race (or perhaps I'm imagining that thread).

IMFWEEYEARS - whoever invented you is a vewy cLeVer PerSon and HaS ObwiOusLy MisSeD TheRe caLLinG in LIfe (it obviously wasn't me!)

Regards to all,

Simon

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TiredOldHack

well said. I have vivid memories of a delayed CDG-DUB flight last year with a tired 2 year old who cried for a good deal of the flight. Even grandad's usual charm didn't work. I felt sorry for adjacent pax who were also disturbed by his plight, but appreciated the sympathetic looks from them.

The point is that there is no right or wrong answer to this problem.

On this particular occasion, everybody could see that the poor mite was in genuine distress and that we were doing our best to pacify him.

This is vastly different from the example of another poster where the parents slept blissfully whilst their children were in distress.

The most extreme example of an obnoxious child I have ever seen was on an Aer Lingus Business class LHR-DUB Flight (remember those good times!!!) was the daughter of a well known TV personality who treated the cabin as her own personal playground. Her minders did little to correct her, leaving it to the cabin crew to try their best. No she wasn't 2 years old.....more like 20. I kid you not.

Simon and Lugano, your children are obviously well brought up and an example to others. If only the young lady I encountered had the benefit of such upbringing....

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Tired Old Hack:
You seem to have a balanced view of having had children and can understand some of these travelers' lack of appreciation for noise on long hauls.

Ryanair is not particularly pleasant, even for a short ride.

Sometimes too much comfort and too much money is the problem. I was told that in Aeroflot business class some years ago, a slightly drunk lady was told that if she didn't behave herself, she would be injected by haldol. Her flying companions hopped to, and quieted her down. Even in business class, since the state earned the money, the staff couldn't care how much money she had.

I too cannot understand why airlines advertise that business class allows the passenger to have comfort, and sleep on a flat bed, so they could arrive fresh to conduct business, but don't provide a quiet environment, regardless of who is making the noise. I may be odd but I have never met anyone who sleeps better with noise around.

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Instead of updating First products, on the basis that one product doesnt suit all, an interesting product inovation would be to provide business class sections.

**Snoooze zone (limited service) dimmed lights throughout

**Mr Busy businessman zone - internet, mobile phones permitted

**Childrens zone - emphasis on games and amusements to keep children occupied

I am not for one minute suggesting posters to write the rule book - this is merely a framework. I recall Virgin using the upstairs on some of their -400 as snooze zones and it did work.

This way, there is a choice for those who want to work, play or sleep.

Simple really.................

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Actually, if there's one thing I'd absolutely hate, it would be the use of mobile phones anywhere on an aircraft and especially in a cabin that's supposed to provide some luxury and p&q (as my late Mum used to say).

Airliners seem to be the last mobile-free zone on the planet, and it would be a shame to lose that.

Cue the Dom Jolly scenario: "WHAT?? NO, I'M ON A PLANE!! NO, IT'S QUITE QUIET, REALLY... FOOD'S CRAP, OF COURSE...."

Or; "You WHAT? No, she didn't! Oh my GOD! That is so AWESOME..." (I'm sure everyone can write the familiar script over the next 15 minutes)

SMS messages and email, sure.

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This is exactly my point TiredOldHack. You pay your money, you choose youu section and everyone is happy.

Personally, on an overnigfht flight, I prefer to sleep rather than sit next to someone intent on waking me up when the sun comes up, by keeping the window blind open.

For those that want to keep in contact, they will be able to without disturbing those that dont.

Provide passengers with the ability to choose....................

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Well, yeah, but I can't see airlines subdividing their cabins in such a way, attractive though the idea sounds :-)

Actually, it has merit if you consider other possibilities. A soundproofed section for snorers, a curtained-off area for the ones who insist on keeping their reading lights on all night, a place with specially scent-impregnated upholstery for the terminally oderiferous.....

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A similar discussion has commenced on another FF website that I frequent. So I posted a link to this topic :D

The best reply from another poster:

"Thing for me is if the child is less than 3 and creating a fuss I don't think for a second that is a sign of bad parenting. Even GREAT parents have pretty much all experienced situations which can be embarrassing.

Above 3 though, I think the game changes somewhat.. At that age there IS a level of comprehension about what's right and wrong. No child is perfect...NOR should that be an expectation of fellow pax.

What SHOULD be an expectation though is that if a child plays up (regardless of the cabin) that the parent/guardian takes EVERY reasonable step to try and sort things out promptly for the comfort of all other pax/crew.

IMHO... If another pax OR crew member, has to address the matter it has been going on for too long."

Wholeheartedly agree.

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Thinking about the phones, and I'm also against them on aircraft as such, but why not do as they did with smoking in the good old days. Front of plane or section, "quiet zone" and rear "phone zone" (hope they don't do left side / right side as some airlines did) with the middle as a buffer.

Of course we can predict the posts? "Never again Air Luton". I booked a no phone zone seat, and in spite of my diamond crusted gold plated frequent flyer card I was placed one row in front of the phone zone. My whole journey was ruined, I could not sleep or work and as a result lost a contract worth 5 billion and my job to go with it!!!

There's no pleasing some folk....

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Hi Lugano

See 6 above, 4.17 on the 7th Feb. We all have different needs. It would be nice if airlines were able to cater for all.

Martyn

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@Lugano:

Well, you were in a no-phone seat, so you got what you wanted. I dunno, picky picky ;-)

Perhaps there ought to be a sort of 'buffer zone' row of seats.For people who don't want to use phones but like to talk to themseves....

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Martyn, Tired, my post was a bit tongue in cheek, and it would be nice if all needs could be catered for.

However, remember when we had smoking seats. How many would book a non smoking seat and then go back for a fag so as not to sit in all the fumes for the duration of the flight?

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I was just pointing you to where I agree with you 100% +++.

There are people who want to use phones, internet, play with children in the aisles, even amazingly, those that want to switch off and rest. We all have different requirements.

I dont think you should say these things "tongue in cheek" - I think that this is something the airlines ought to consider in marketing and seating plans.

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OK I wouls like a phone seat surrounded by non phone seats so I am not disturbed when not on a call. Close to a window with full aisle access seated away from anybody who smells and with any children under 18 years old in a sound proof box - asking too much ?

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Charles-P - I know just the place that would suit. Downstairs in the bagage hold, it is very peaceful, alas no window.

Have fun............

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During WWII members of the SOE were sometime infiltrated into occupied Europe by being flown in the bomb bays of Mosquito bombers - that must have been more or less what you had in mind :-)

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CharlesP - this is where I wear my pedant hat. Actually, Mosquitoes were normally used on the 'ball bearing' run to Sweden and occasionally to ferry passengers there. As far as I know, they weren't used to ferry agents into France, but I'd be delighted to be corrected. Every day's a schoolday etc.

Lysanders were the aircraft of choice, if you were physically landing in France. Lockheed Hudsons were used occasionally. Or agents were parachuted in, from a variety of bombers: Whitleys, Halifaxes, Stirlings etc. Obsolete aircraft were preferred because the air defences over France were far weaker than over northern Europe.

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TiredOldHack - You are both right and wrong. I have a personal connection here I will share with the BT community.

The Westland Lysander was indeed a popular choice but for the occasions where an actual landing was made, this was known as the "Dive and Drop" and operated by 138 Squadron out of RAF Tangmere (although the aircraft were based at Newmarket).

The Mosquito was the choice for the early development of what became known as HALO (High Altitude Low Opening) a form of parachute insertion later refined by the boys from Hereford.

In 1944 two members of SOE, both 19 year old woman were inserted into Eastern Holland this way by having the Mosquito fly among a Lancaster bomber stream to disguise its true mission, once on the ground the two women made contact with Dutch resistance and passed plans and advice for sabotage of train points systems.

They both survived the war, one of whom later returned to Holland to be decorated by the Dutch government, she died in 2004, a Grandmother, Great Grandmother and joy to be with until the end. She was my aunt.

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Nice story. I've just been reading a recent history of the French Resistance: the Dutch resistance suffered much more, because their networks were virtually all successfully penetrated early in the war by the Abwehr. Agents went in and were picked up immediately. One of the great unsung tragedies. Later, the networks were rebuilt.

I still don't think Mosquitoes were used much in France (if at all) but would like to know the truth, if only to fill a gap in my knowledge.

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Easy to look back and wonder if the generation today would be as brave as those of the war years, I would like to think so.

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TiredOldHack

Take a look at a copy of "571 Mosquito Bomber Squadron" by Barry Blunt that has some interesting stories as does "Israeli Air Force De Havilland Mosquito in Heyl Ha'Avir Service part 1 - 1948 to 1953" by Shlomo Aloni which makes reference to the role of parachute insertion around Rheims by Mosquito.

(Takes off anorak)

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Charles P and TiredOldHack

I enjoy the BT forum immensely and exchanges like yours just add to the pleasure. Not many posters write about subjects in such a personal way. Charles P, thank you for sharing, I hope you do not mind if I try to research more about the extremely brave story you told of your Aunt.

Thank you for sharing

Martyn

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Martyn,

Thank you for your kind comment. At my aunt's request the Dutch authorities never made her award public as she still feared Nazi revenge (this was about 1950 or so). Until the day she died she refused to discuss the event of her wartime service in detail saying she still had nightmares and always changing the subject.

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Charles P - my late Father held similar views and with fewer and fewer of the brave people remaining, it is so important that history is not forgotten and the events are recorded.

I know this is way off the thread subject, but its interesting your Aunts story appears on a thread "Obnoxious kids in Business Class".

Perhaps there is a connection - if people realise just how fortunate they are to turn left and not right when they board an aircraft, not just becasue of the money in their wallets, but because paths were cleared by extremely brave people, like your Aunt, to enable later generations to enjoy a world where air travel has become so easy and affordable.

A wonderful story Charles P, who cares about the thread subject!??

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Hear hear Martyn. A wonderful story indeed.

My uncle was ex RAF and went on to work on the Comet programme for de Haviland in Hatfield.

His brother was also RAF but was shot down (and is buried) in Holland. He was dropping SOE agents into the country and it was on his return to Blighty his plane got hit and went down. For reasons of security they never knew the operatives names or for that matter their mission.

I'm not for one minute suggesting, Charles, that it was your Aunt he flew into Holland and it's already a co-incidence that two forum members should both have family involved in the same type of military operation during WW2.

Unfortunately my Uncle has also passed away so I cannot ask him (and he was quite open about his wartime flying) but it is a fascinating story which I would love to explore further.

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A wonderful story from CharlesP and Lugano.

What Martyn says about our being fortunate because of having paths cleared by many brave souls is indeed true.

One of the things I like most about this forum is that many threads deviate from their original subject and many posters share their personal thoughts with us.

Thanks to all for so doing, and long may it continue.

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If I might semi-divert back to civilian air travel :-)

This was prompted by Martyn's remark about the people who cleared the way, as it were. Look out for a copy of fate is the Hunter (yes, the same title as the famous story & film directed by Charles Laughton) written by Ernest K Gann.

He was one of the pioneering airline pilots, flying DC2s and DC3s before WW2, then flying military transports 'over the hump' in Burma. One of the most marvellous aviation autobiographies you will ever read, and a real insight into the founding of modern civil aviation.

One anecdote sticks in the mind (though it may have come from another book - I read FITH more than 30 years ago): early airliners used to follow railway lines for navigation. On the early night flights (DC3s ran a 'sleeper' service coast-to-coast) they still did, if the moon was full, because it reflected off the lines and made them easy to spot.

There was one long stretch of single-track line on some prairie, devoid of obstructions like trees and telegraph poles, and one pilot flying mail (not pax!) evolved a gag. If he spotted the headlight of a train chuffing along the line, he'd fly ahead, turn, bring his aircraft down to 20 feet above the lines, and fly directly towards the train with his landing light on.

With the train driver presumably having heart failure in anticipation of the head-on collision with another train on the same track, he'd then flick off the light, pull back the stick, and soar into the night sky, to resume his journey.

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CharlesP Thanks for the book recommendation. I'll try and find a copy. Never knew that Mosquitoes were used for that purpose in France. Great stuff.

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TiredOldHack,
To follow your pilot v train story you may be aware of the stories about the helicopter pilots in the Falklands who would amuse themselves by flying slowly up and down in front of the penguins. The birds would become entranced by the chopper and slowly the pilots would fly directly over the now staring ranks of thousands of penguins who would tilt their heads back and back and back until .......... crash...... ten thousand penguins would topple over backwards. I'm told that film exists of this but I have never seen it.

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The BBC News site has a related article about taking toddlers and babies to restaurant and has published the following tips - perhaps we could apply the same guidelines to those flying in Business/First? I particularly like the one about what to do if you cannot calm the child down!

Tips for dining parents

Go to a restaurant that won't stress you or the kids out

Go when the toddlers are not too hungry

Take a stash of books or small quiet toys

Try and sit away from the romantic couples

There is safety in numbers

If your children cannot be quietened take them outside until calm is restored

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Indeed Delsurrey - that would be very interesting at 35000 feet!

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Ahhhh. Half term and a return trip to EDI with the wife and kids. Must have counted around 15-20 kids on my flight back including a baby who was due to sit next to me. The BA crew however were great and moved the mother, her child and the infant to an empty row of 3. Not a sound was heard throughout the short flight.
So why the post.....

Well I hope the loudmouth on the his mobile in 8A reads this. Next time pleaseee shut up, no one wants to know about your buisness and when the crew ask you very politely to turn the phone off please do so. It is for your safety and everyone elses. Having to asked 4 times and then respond like some petulent child is tiresome and dull and you simply look like the prat you are.

Incident proves again that adults are a far bigger problem on aircraft than any child.

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There actually is a very easy solution to the mobile phone "loudmouths" on aeroplanes. As there are no smoking signs, create and illuminate a no mobile phone sign.

If there is to be no segregated "phone call using seats", then the airlines could effectively have an all phones switched off rule, from boarding to deplaning.

Interesting, on landing that some airlines (Qantas springs to mind) allow you to turn your phone on whilst taxying in, whilst others (BA springs to mind) ask for phones to remain switched off.

Simple really......................

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There is always easier way ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvKIfHTYC2E

:D:D

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Oh yes, I rather liked that. And I found some of the links off the page entertaining. A year ot two ago, they were carrying some criminal from LHR to Athens on my flight. He was handcuffed between two very big coppers, in the back row of seats, and was swearing at the top of his voice for ages.

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This one is a very nice trip report about traveling with infant.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-reports/1188444-first-class-infant-travel-trip-many-f-irsts.html

Regards

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Really interesting and rather fun when the sprog is the subject of text and pix, but otherwise (a) one of the worst collection of holiday snaps I've ever seen and (b) a reminder of why I think Dubai is just a nasty place. OK, so I've had a tough weekend....

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couldn't agree more with you!

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Just come off AF's 777 service from HKIA to CDG. Five kids in the main Business Class cabin - two infants and three aged between 5 and 10. Not a whimper from any of them all night.... And, for once, the business travellers were well behaved as well! Perfect flight.

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P. Sepsas, you're another FT'er :D

I'm hoping on our flights in 9 weeks, my kids are as good as his infant, or TominScotland's experience immediately above.

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Hey Binman 62
instead to buy a plane for me that I pay my fee to stay quite and with out monster kids in Business upper deck of First, I'm not a drinker or a noise passenger (usually I take my meal and I sleep) and for this I pay from 2.500 to 3.500 Euro and trust me since I work hardly in my job to get these money I can not accept that silly people like you recommend to by a plane: is quite simple probably you got kids like described before so you feel guilty, otherwise you are a jelous guy jast fly economy and wish to be upgraded in buisness may be because the LCD screen is not work properly, yes I believe you are this STD person, that before the boarding you see priority boarding for business and first passengers and you hate them, this is why you are posting here, dam

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Hey rickasia, damn I had to work hard to understand what you were trying to say to Binman62...

Next time you make a post, may I respectfully suggest that you run your comment through a spell checker and grammer checker (readily available in Word, or via Google), as I realise that English may not be your first language .

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Sorry LindsayW
for my poor English, are you a teacher or a poster ?
Looks like you care more gramma than not comments, any way sorry again, you know, I care more the substance than not "snobby" details; are correct my sentences now ?
Substance for me is pay a business or 1st cl seat and have back quite, relax, service; snobby are certain posts....

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I am a mere poster, however a student of the English language for 43 years.

As I said, I was being respectful in exactly the same way that if I wrote in your language that you may respectfully assist me to write better next time. But if you care to take it any other way, that's your perogative - just don't expect me to help again *shrugs*.

I presumed that you were responding to Binman62's post of 25 February 12:21 GMT, and I am still having difficulty in trying to understand how your comment relates to his initial comment.

Well, back to planning my trip over to the 'ol Blighty in 9 weeks where hopefully my 2 kids will be angels of virtue to the fellow pax in J and F.

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To Rickasia - don't worry about your English, it is not perfect
but so what. Your ideas and thoughts come across just
fine and I had no difficulty whatsoever understanding your posting.
In all fairness, I do not think that Lindsay W meant to appear
snobbish - he was merely trying to be helpful in suggesting
that you could use a spell or grammar checker. When one
writes in a language different from his native tongue it is
very easy to err (make mistakes) - sometimes we all need
a little help! Cheers and happy flying.

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Thanks a lot nyphotoimages I like reply at poster like you that lloks like friendly.
To LindsayW I was referring to his post of 22-12-2009 (I'm new of this discussion so I started to read from the beginning).
Do you mean fellow > as guy pay for Business in J or F
Why J or F have something wrong if you can get ?
I pay my self all the 80 or more regional and intercontinental fly ticket I purchase during the year and I well know is hard to make money so if I have opportunity I pay discounted business fare, may you are allowed from your company or someone else to waste money or maybe you are not a self made woman.....As I said I care the substance, not too much at the formality and if I can save money to enjoy in different ways with my family I prefere.

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riskasia, if you are going to reference a post that isn't the most recent comment by the poster (or is long way back in the discussion) , may I suggest you advise us of that fact - his comment is 18 months ago. I had no idea that you were meaning the first post in this discussion...I am not a mind reader (my wife is :D)

Likewise, I pay for my own tickets, I am a business owner.

Bad presumption on your part that I was female, as last time I checked.....yep, I'm male. Very male. :D

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Sorry Lindsay, my misunderstanding I didn't want offend you.
Yes to be able to understand the post I read the top and scrolled down.
Have a safe trip.

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rickasia,,,,,. I too understood your post entirely but I fear your may have misunderstood mine.

I have flown for 30 years on work and leisure and have had wonderfully memorable experiences on aircraft and for the most part, have been fortunate to do so in the comfort or First Class and occasionally Club.

I now travel predominately for pleasure and with two children, and have done since they were infants. I have been able to continue to travel in First and Club and consider myself fortunate to do so. I also pay for my own fare and that of my family.

In paying for my ticket I am entitled to seat and a level of service commensurate with the fare I have paid. I am not entitled to be abusive, drunk, obnoxious or unpleasant and my children are not entitled to run amok.

My children are however just that, Children, they are not little angels and I do not expect them to sit silently or still for hours on end. They are set clear limits and I will intervene if they go beyond them.

In my view airlines have a role to play in keeping young children occupied and entertained and I have been critical and continue to be critical of carriers who seem unable or unwilling to meet the needs of kids, especially in premium cabins. For example they still get adult cutlery, table clothes, mini salt cellars and glasses to accompany food that you often would not get served in a school canteen!

In flight entertainment has improved but head phone for kids are rare indeed and the use of oddly shaped connectors means they cannot use their own.

Airlines need to remember that kids cannot simply drink themselves to sleep and pass out for 6 hours on a day light flight across the Atlantic.

In 30 years of travel the vast majority of bad experiences on aircraft have been caused by adults who were abusive, drunk, obnoxious or unpleasant. From those who snore to those who are strangers to deodorant and soap, even in First Class. It can and has made the journey difficult at times but I need to keep reminding myself that flying no matter the cabin, is no different to the London Underground or a no 9 bus, it is public transport and as such I need to deal with my fellow human beings and all their faults and failings and they mine. That includes dealing with crying infants and children and if I do not like it then I need to find an alternative form of transport. For some, that might mean buying a private plane.

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Binman62:

Very balanced view! But I don't think airlines in general would make radical changes for the infants/kids as they all want to portray the premium cabins for style and elegance and Diseyland has no place for the Product Development Departments!

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I agree with you Binman62 that is a metter of fact air transportation is a public service and also often adult (because adult they haven't any excuse) they are more bed educate than child but I can't agree that cabin crew and fly company's rules allowed to ignore the "ignorance" of certains parents (not the kids, the kids are jast a product and a mirror of us), exactly because 1st and business aren't cheaper and the company like to represent these class like the top for the business travelers or rich leasure travellers they MAST adopt strictly policy to invite parents (not kids) to observ rules and have education, if they haven't education someone mast teach them.

I remark that (as you) I pay on my own for the seat and if you make money honestly you don't like to waste having unpleasant travels due silly policy to that has to satisfy any one jast because paying.
I learn from my parents doesen't metter how much you have in your pocket, you mast get and give respect for you you are and what you do same should understand fly companys when peoples pay for a seat 2 or 3 month of a worker's salary.

Moreover you are right when you mention the bus or MTR but these service except some reality (like 1st class MTR in Hong Kong) are thinked for every one and ofcourse they mast be suitable for small pocket, different is when we talk of 2000 / 3500 Euro, I'm sorry but I have to disagree with your sentence. I don't need find an alternative transportation like private jet, is the carrier has to change policy.

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Um, no, it's not a public service, except in the case of the few state-supported airlines still left. It's a business. Ultimately, though, I agree that adverse parental behaviour inevitably results in badly behaved children. Just my personal view.

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Yes TiredOldHack you are right however is an "open" expensive service that many uncarefully arrogant parents made unpleasent thanks to the totally PASSIVE policy currently applyed by 100% of the carriers to rosicate any cent possible making often advertisment about their 1st or business class a big expensive lie.

I'm senator in Lufthansa and I stop to fly awith them due the lie flat and no privacy seat and the massive qty of kids you find in the trip to and from HKG, on LH cabin crew they jast reply to you they can not discriminate any one so I discrimine them stopping fly.

Cathay and British are a little bit better but on BA my last fly from HKG to London was glad by two kids and a couple of parents looked like they bought all the site of first business section. I have to say. BA is losting many points due dirty blanket delivered with bad smell and hair in business class from BLQ to Gatwick and so on.

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Let's be glad we weren't on this flight!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2013063/Octomom-Nadya-Suleman-plane-row-actress-Kristen-Johnston-12-noisy-children.html

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I can think of the blow pipe I've bought in the Amazon! I guess there is a reduced weaker dozage for the little ones.

Suleman should have travelled with some to control/pacify them as required.

Just been on a CX flight into Paris with FOUR families with babies and a total bliss. No noise at all! There are plenty of good parents and good darling babies in the world.

God bless them all!

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This is nothing compared with getting on 767 with 150 teenagers on a school trip. I have to say all the Princes and Princesses were extremely well behaved, especially the one in seat 17b as that was my son!!

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Bravo Martyn! Another great parent!

Enough negative comments on this thread and we must mention the good ones!

Love the idea of a kindergarden flight!

Safe travel with the Angles in the Sky!

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I agree that there are many more good children on flights than obnoxious ones.

My kids (4 year old daughter and 18 month son), wife and I have returned from 8 flights (4 of them longhaul, 7 of them in Business for me and my son whilst my daughter and wife had 5 in Business and 2 in First).

We were very fortunate that we planned well with feeding the children prior to all flights and they were angels on most sectors, with only my son having an hour cry on QF30 after take-off). That was due to him having been up since 4.45am Paris time to catch a 7.30am flight CDG/LHR, even thought he'd had a swim, followed by a 2 hour afternoon sleep, a swim and dinner at Hilton T4). By the 10.20pm QF30 take-off he was over-tired and I did everything I could to quieten him, including using the Skybed as a sound deadener, by placing him there when he was crying. I was fortunate that everyone was using their noise-reducing headphones).

One story that was memorable was regaled by my wife on the same flight. She was seated in First with my daughter, in 2E/F. When the male pax in 3F realised he was seated behind a child, he moved to Row 6. Needless to say, my daughter wasn't heard from during the flight, after sleeping first up then watching Nomeo & Juliet twice in a row after breakfast. I hope he realised that his move was in vain).

We had a number of positive comments on our long haul flights from other pax who were pleasantly surprised by their demeanor. My story was on the sector HKG/MEL, where I saw the old lady seating in 23A eyes flick with concern when we sat down. We had fed him dinner (mashed potato) in the First Lounge for the 6.55pm flight and he was asleep just after push back. He then proceeded to sleep for 5 hours, after which he woke and just wanted to walk, so I took him to the toilet area and walked him up and down the stairs which he loved). Upon returning to our seat after a change of nappy at the same time, HR then talked happily to me and her until breakfast - with more trips to the stairs in those hours to keep him happy).

We had other children on our flights and caught up with them and their parents on our regular trips to the toilets and standing up in the back area). Most had similar experiences to ours, well fed babies or children (and not sugar based treats) will generally assist in keeping them contented - ably assisted by crayons/pencils, DVD's or similar. Having a dedicated childrens programs is important - just ask my daughter, who watched every program on CX Studio on the HKG/LHR sector).

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Oh dear I had to laugh binman .... Obnoxious kids/parents in the same category as those who have the misfortune to "snore"?
I guess the major difference being... Obnoxious kids generally have equally obnoxious parents who can while awake at least control their repulsive offspring but perhaps they don't know the difference ... Whereas the poor old snorer probably doesn't know he/she does and if snoring could be cured one suspects there may be far fewer unhappy marriages .... Just a thought ... From a parent of an exceptional flying child and the partner of a unintentional snorer.....but I'm definitely with you on the personal hygiene side of things... Yuck!

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Dear Rickasia:
There is no use in trying to convince parents that people who have no kids don't exactly feel like taking a risk on having their trips ruined, first class or otherwise.
I have tried the following:
1. Bring ear plugs
2. Go into Tourist class from first/business and find a quiet spot. There may be crying babies, but parents of crying babies in tourist are usually less entitled and more considerate of CERTAIN parents of disturbing or disturbed kids in business/first. There was a time that kids from wealthy families were taught to behave better, but welcome to the 21st century, many children, not all, of business or show people often have a hard time understanding the concept of not disturbing strangers.
3. Don't rely on the staff to do anything. You will find one in a hundred who cared or dared,
4. I don't know what airline you fly on. I would for a start avoid SOME Asian airlines. Many of the stupid air hostesses have a dual standard, one for Asians and one for Caucasians. Notice how they can be far more obsequious with Westerners than with Asians. You won't win any points there. Yanks or Cowboys might not be so prim, but in the end American staff tend to be more even-handed and less impressed with post-colonialism, or at least more aware of it.
5. In North America and certain countries where there is society security benefits, childless citizens pay taxes with no advantage for having kids, they rely on younger people, or other people's kids to work and pay into the system which pays for their monthly allowances in retirement. So they/we put up with other people's kids as well.
6. There are parents with truly angelic kids, there are parents with kids who are kids (danger zone) and there are parents with little monsters who will grow into big monsters. In most cases you will have a very hard time to convince any parent that their little angel is not so angelic. So give up that battle.
7. You can vent, but don't try to psych anyone out. Don't call anyone jealous. You can't comment on people's mind. You can comment on others' behavior though, in a civil manner.
8. As to some people on this site, some opinions seem to rule, and anyone who wants to say anything other than what they/he thinks is usually insulted in some way, whether you started it or not. In this instance, sadly, you seemed to have begun this in the fact put-down.
9. Colonialism takes a long time to die out. This is an Anglo forum and you will not win any arguments here.
10. Good luck and try different airlines. We have found over the decades that KLM staff most of the time have a way with kids so that they don't get out of hand too much. Though the Dutch were also colonists in last centuries most of them seem to have gotten it out of their DNA, and they are not particularly impressed with one set of kids over another set of kids, any form color or shape. Of course there are exceptions but fewer. The only obnoxious people we have ever encountered on KLM First are loud business people of all nationalities drunk on company funds. Alas the evil of capitalism run amok.
OH. FORGOT TO SAY, " Everyone might want to read SUMMERHILL to learn about an alternative way of viewing children's behavior and how to approach it.

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Summerhill.......not sure you have added anything to the debate but you certainly have some underlying issues which you really should address.

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Summerhill maybe a long time since you flew KLM as they stopped with first class along long time ago. Apart from that I agree with you keep the little bratts as far away as possible from premium cabins

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I think the only issue that Sunmerhill has is to use private jets rather than airlines.

If I see a booking I will certainly load some cuddly toys and soothers.............

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Dear MartyhnSinclair
I'm assuming your only "issue" is to get kids be bad educate as parents.
Always is not a problem of issues but of respect and education.

I already got on the fly discussion with parents as you and mostrly cabin crew stand on my side, since is a metter of fact that because you pay is not enought to allowed you or kids to be bad educate.

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ivornomates,

if pax pay the fare for their children in premium cabins, they have as much right to be there as you or I.

Pat

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As I mentioned on another thread, flew LHR IAD this week. There were 5 children in F, not a sound from any of them apart from the odd "please" and "thankyou".

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Disagree. Just because you have bought a ticket does not give you the right to upset others.I have as much tolerance of parents with noisy uncrontrolled children who they ignore as I do for drunks and people playing music so loud that it is audible in the cabin.
I reserve my real disdain for those parents who take very young children on long haul flights.I understand from a Pediatrician friend that it is not helpful to take young babies onto flights particularly long haul as they are unable to balance the pressure in their ears. We should think not only about the comfort of other passengers but also the comfort of the child.

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Trouble is, if you have to travel, air is often the best way. Otherwise its boat or car, neither of which is practical if you have to go 10,000 kms or more.

People need to travel and sometimes they need to do it with kids, it's unavoidable. My kids are at school in S. Africa and they come back twice a year with me and my wife. They look forward to seeing their friends and grandparents in Europe and it would be wrong to deny them this. Mine are quiet, the smallest, 8, goes to sleep immediately, and the other, 11, plays with his iPAd or the IFE then sleeps.

I would suggest if you want to minimise on flying with kids, then check the school holidays of the departing and arriving countries, and avoid the periods 3 or 4 days before and after the end of term and start of term.

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My (then 10 month old) grandson flew DUB-MCO: a 9.5 hour flight. He spent the majority of the flight asleep in his bassinette...enjoyed the experience judging by the smile on his face....didn't cause the slightest bit of trouble for anybody.

Yes, some children can be a bit noisy at times, but no more so than many adults I have seen in some flights over the years.

That said, I can understand that some pax prefer to sleep undisturbed. I can't really see any airline coming up with adult only flights, so for those who don't want to travel in the same space as children, LuganoPirate's excellent advice is the way to go.

Pat

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Lugano, Pat,

Well considered, intelligent and tolerant posts. As ever.

Needless to say, I wholeheartedly agree with both of you.

It's the adults who cause me problems in premium cabins, and given the unbridled and blinkered arrogance of one or two posters on this thread, I guess there should be no surprises there.

Simon

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Before the movie begins, there is a humorous short which reminds the audience that they are not at home watching TV. In consideration of other movie viewers, the audience is requested to turn off their sell phones, not to talk to one another, and refrain from "text-ing."
Why can't airlines do the same, and to add that if the cabin pressure makes the ears hurt, passenges can hold their noses tight and blow, and the eardrums will pop. Many adults don't know that and suffer from that pain. Children can understand this and even might find it fun. Also parents do not realize that at certain ages children do not realize that they are speaking loudly. Parents often speak at the same volume as their children, thus raising the decibel. Parents who speak in a normal tone of voice usually have children who would adjust to the parents' speech. Besides adult passengers could really learn something about allowing some quiet and peace for other passengers. Indeed when some adults talk incessantly in a typed up mode, or those who talk loudly on cellphone can be really awful. There's got to be some consideration in all directions. It wasn't so bad that cabin attendants used to be called air-hostesses. A hostess fields uncomfortable situations instead of shirking their responsibility when it comes to business first. Indeed no one has earned any right to bother others by paying more.
Parents who leave babies crying in the crib, or leave a child wandering around the cabin, and take sleeping pills (both), are shirking their responsibilities also. That sort of behavior would be considered criminal neglect, but somehow is condoned up in the air. Crazy.

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Whilst I have a low tolerance for negligent parenting I must be lucky as I have very few examples of such bad behaviour or such bad behaviour not being stopped by the parents. On the whole my experience has been very positive though that could be because 90% of my flying is long haul. The two worst experiences were both with virtually new born babies who howled the whole flight (hence my discussion with the Pediatrician friend) in both instances the parents were going on vacation and completely ignored the child's complaints.
So overall I compliment parents on planes as I know it must be hard.
I think it is worhty of note the BA and AA in some locations have children's areas in their lounges. I have no tolerance at all for FF's bringing gaggles of screaming children into the lounge and then letting them run riot. My policy would be no child area no kids under 12. Which is not to say that most parents do not try very hard to make their children behave. My biggest peeve with children in lounges though is not screaing kids but whiney adolescents who play with the PC's downloading and infecting with impunity and monopolizing the PC area as their space preventing business users from accessing.
Last thought, if you do get stuck with loud kids I recommend Bose QC headphones or my Bratbusters as I call them.

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"Bratbusters". Love it.

Ultimately, I think (and this has been an interesting and long-running thread), I think the issue is not 'obnoxious kids in business class' but 'obnoxious kids anywhere'.

Am I the only person here who remembers the old BOAC 'schoolkids specials', when the Boeing 707s and VC10s were ferrying boarding school children to or from their parents in various far-flung places? I remember we used to meet the same faces, flight after flight.

At age 11 I was accompanied by my large toy rubber crocodile called Horace (bought from London Zoo). I recall that one of the stewardesses borrowed him, and we watched down the aisle as she went through the door to the flight deck, crept up behind the pilot, and dangled Horace in front of his face. To his credit, the VC10 didn't even twitch.

Not sure I'd have wanted to be an adult passenger or cabin crew on some of those trips, whatever class of travel :-)

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I have to say that I have been fortunate not to experience any really bad children in premium cabins, well in any cabin.

I have to admit boarding UC with VS in LAX bound for LHR I was horrified to see a 6 yr old sitting a few seats away with his mum and dad.

After take off, they fed him with some food brought on before his meal arrived and put him to bed. Before the cabin was dimmed, they covered his suite with a couple of blankets to make it darker for him. He slept until about 75 minutes before arriving in LHR and was occupied

On disembarking I said to his parents they should be proud of their sons behaviour and try to remark to all parents where I see kids behaving so well. I think the poor parents think OMG everybody hates us when they board the flight with kids. I think it is usually appreciated.

Whilst the IFE is pretty good nowadays with most airlines having kids audio and visual channels, my sister always makes sure her laptop has a few CBBC programmes on iplayer with good headphones, a few up to date apps on her iphone to play with and a colouring/sticker book to keep my 6 yr old nephew occupied.

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Talking of IFE and kids, I think we are all used to the santizied movie edits on board BA and AA with copious warnings if the characters say anything worse than bother it. Took an Iberia to MEX via MAD when my flight went Tech a year ago and was stunned (takes a lot) wathcing one of the Spanish movies with no warning, Full Frontal Nudity and some direct if not profane langauge (not stuff I learnt at school I can tell you ... ¡Hijo de p*ta!

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Rich1......I have no tolerance at all for FF's bringing gaggles of screaming children into the lounge and then letting them run riot. My policy would be no child area no kids under 12. Which is not to say that most parents do not try very hard to make their children behave. My biggest peeve with children in lounges though is not screaing kids but whiney adolescents who play with the PC's downloading and infecting with impunity and monopolizing the PC area as their space preventing business users from accessing...............................
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Get over yourself...........

In 25 years of travel I have rarely seen people get stuck into work on planes in any class. My experience of lounges is that kids are well behaved on the whole. As for the use of PC......so the kids are using them to stop being bored and pestering people. How is that different from other users checking their email or reading business traveller.
The kids are there by right...my two have silver cards in the own names.... and have as much right to use equipment and anyone else.

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Binman, guess I pressed a button, sorry bout that.
I see quite a few people working for an hour or so on planes but post was about lounges where I see a lot of people working.
To clarify:
my overall experience of kids in air travel is very positive,
I think the provision of child play areas is a welcome trend to keep children amused and to allow them to enjoy themselves without disturbing others.
I think it is wrong to try to impose travel restraints on people if they have children either not to fly or only use certain cabins but I do believe club lounges should be places of calm and quiet and when that calm is disrupted by passengers of any age they should be asked to leave.
I question whether a club lounge is the right environment for small children if there are no play provisions for them but perhaps you are right that it should be a parental decision based on the tiredness, excitement, stress levels at the time...
As regards PC use, I think that letting children use PC's is fine, what I object to are passengers (normally adolescents as they are the only ones smart enough to do it) doing things on PC's that are prohibited such as downloading infected software and trying to bypass the security both of which result in PC's which do not work, or ignoring other passengers' needs and staying on machines for very long periods when there are people waiting to use them. I would suggest around 30 minutes max should be a reasonable timwhen it is busy.
All users of the club have rights not just one group and from what you say you do your best to ensure your children are respectful of the needs of others and this is normally the case.
Some lounges such as AA at ORD have a quiet room where cell phones and loud conversations are banned,p erhaps provision of such quiet areas is a way to balance the needs of all.

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Recently in the lounge at ZRH three kids, about 13 or 14 years old, were making a lot of noise while playing with the computers. They were told to keep the noise down by an attendant. They refused, and just made more noise. A more senior person then arrived and ordered them to leave.

Only at this point did the parents reveal themselves and started protesting about the kids being made to leave, even though they made no attempt to keep their children quiet.

They were then asked for their boarding passes which they handed over and were told to leave or they would be denied boarding. It was enough and they left rather red faced.

Again an example of parents not acting responsibly and letting their kids disturb everyone.

I know kids like to laugh and shout, and mine are no different, but they are warned that it is a privelege to sit in the lounge and if they abuse it they will wait outside. I've never had a problem and when they start to get a bit boisterous the big finger is raised and they go quiet again.

While they did use the computers, they now use their iPads which they got after Mrs. LP and I upgraded to v2.

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Never mind the kids...How about obnoxious adults in Business Class?

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LuganoPirate has just rasied a point nobody has suggested before:-

Airlines should make passengers travellering with infants and young children to sign an achnowledgement to undertake responsibility to take care of their kids and to avoid causing inconvenience to the other passengers in-flight. Already a standard thing when requesting a seat at an Emergency Exit row. Making it a Contition of Carriage before you are accepted for travel! It may not stop new-born babies from crying but at least it serves as a reminder for the parents of their duty.

It all boils down to one's responsibility.

BTW, I was in Zurich Swiss lounge yesterday and there were 4-5 quite noisy teenages travelling with their parents and the lounge staffmember came to tell them to not move the tables and chairs around making loud banging noises and fortunately they obeyed when told!

Peace and calm travel to all!

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FlyingChinaman - excellent suggestion. Make sure the printers include a clause for grown ups to sign an undertaking to behave irrespective of their children being present or not:

* no farting

* no swearing

*politeness to crew and fellow pax at all times

* use deodorant

* kill cell phones on boarding

*plus any other suggestions

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In addition to Martyn's suggestions:

* no talking during safety announcement

* in economy, no reclining of seatbacks until meal service is finished.

* no pushing or queue jumping at boarding

Now if only we could persuade passengers to abide by these simple behaviour goals....

Safe travels to all,

Pat

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Most people are well behalf BUT it is a good thing for the airlines to remind them of their responbilities, as unfortunately there are quite a few "under-informed" travellers around nowaways!

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We should have more passengers (young and old) like you to set example of good behaviour!!

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what i really ment is that i am an actual 10 year old and ive traveled in first before i know that i have to behave cause not many kids go to first class anyway no one has complained about me (im not trying to brag)

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We get a lot of cabin crew on this forum saying how difficult there job is but on my recent jet blue flight, HPN-MCO, #597. August 9th, row 9, there was a family of 4, 2 adults and 2 kids that totaly ignored the cabin crews instructions, to the extent that the father took the child to the bathroom when the aircraft was on base leg and only existed the bathroom AFTER the wheels had been lowered. When the child returned to his seat, he remained standing, not strapped in and encouraged by the adult to hold on tight to the seat in front, whilst standing. This was in full view of the cabin crew who really couldnt have cared less.

I am also amazed at the number of passengers who board with earphones on and simply dont take them off, even for the safety briefing. Again the cabin crew just showed no interest.

Jet Blue keeps the live TV on during the safety briefing, well they did on both my sectors. So the additional problem now seems some cabin crew that show very little interest in their job.

Jet Blue is a very comfortable airline that offers free beverages and snacks on all flights. Pity they are let down by lazy cabin crew.

The flight up on August 5th #594 row 15, there was a baby who screamed all the way for 2 hours +, simply because she was strapped into a car seat and wanted to get out and sit on her mothers knee. She showed no interest, even when the baby held her arms out. Result, a very noisy flight for the other passengers in the vicinity.

Nice to hear from the Bandit and to have a junior traveller contributing. Welcome.

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i know jet blue can sometimes can be horrible but not as horrible as screaming baby ive experienced kicking in the back of my seat from a 5 year old i felt like turning around and saying SHUT UP!

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so why didnt you??

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i really dont know.

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personally i love flying but when younger kids are there the flight is ruined :(

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@TheBandit

You have touched my soul! My first flights as a child were on Air Vietnam in Douglas DC3 twin-engined taildraggers (you may have to Google for that plane), at age about five. My first 'big plane' experience was when I was one year older than you are now, flying on BOAC Boeing 707s and Vickers VC10s out to Tehran, and I absolutely _loved_ it.

I still do.

Enjoy it while you are still small enough to luxuriate in the comfort. As you get older, you will find that the seats magically shrink.

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Amazing how time distorts your memory, I can remember being impressed by big seats, lovely food, passengers all dressed to look smart and a timetable with exotic names like Royal Ambassador Service which arrived when it said it would.I remember my parents telling me to be good and stop running around. I remember going to "LAP" to say goodbye to friends and eating in a fancy restaurant with Waiters in white unifroms and food that I enjoyed. Shows you how memory plays tricks as you get older... or does it.
I think Chinaman is right, people of all ages should know how to behave so as not to inconvenience, upset or spoil things for others...
Now where are my Bose headphones...

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(Memory Lane mode)

Anyone else remember the BOAC terminal at Victoria Station? Oh, and the poster ad campaign for BOAC with the tagline:

Try a little VC10-derness"?

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Yep, The BOAC sign you could see from the train coming into Victoria on the boat train. Remember the Cromwell road Air Terminal? A VIckers Vanguard going to Salzburg where the engines would come into synch and go out again sounding like something from the Dambusters...Happy days

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I never used the Cromwell Road terminal. Only flew on a Vanguard once - Dan Air, I think. I loved those huge windows.

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BEA used them a lot to Salzburg due to runway length. I was not happy as I loved the kick in the pants feel you got taking off in a Trident which was what they used for Geneva (this was before Papa India).

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its nice to see everyone who actually supports a 10 year olds opinions (me) im actually 10

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TheBandit

Why not open a thread about what would help keep a 10 year amused on a 10 hour flight? See how many other kids read the BT forum?? Do cabin crew and passengers treat you nicely etc. Interested to hear your thoughts/opinions

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mabie i should that's a good idea getting back to the other thing i fly southwest airlines now and alot of babies which everyone knows they are anoying

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i love airlines thats what i am really into my favorite airline is southwest

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I can well remember the old Terminal at Victoria Tired, you'd check in then board the bus for the airport. I think you took the A4 as the motorway had not been built.

I also remember the Vanguard's and the enormous bathrooms. Or did they just seem enormous as did the seats when we were younger and, erm, smaller!

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A4? you mean the Great West Road... nurse more medicine please...

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i just found out that im flying to ft. lauderdale in feburary hope no screaming kids are on....... also its just nice to see everyone on this forum supporting a 10 year olds opinions thanks everyone!

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Hello Bandit, great to have you on board! You are the same age as my younger daughter...

Perhaps the next time you do see obnoxious children on a flight you should go up to them and explain how they are letting the side down?

I don't suggest you do the same with obnoxious adults, though, they are likely to react badly. Unfortunately a lot of us grown-ups don't take criticism very well...

And on that note - do other readers have any constructive suggestions for dealing with obnoxious adults? I must confess that the fear of a bad (or even violent) reaction tends to make me hesitate from confronting the loud/drunk/rude/etc grown-ups who all too often frequent the premium cabins - and are, in my personal experience, far more likely to ruin my flights than children

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Ian
I once got so fed up with a chap across the aisle from me in F that I, very pleasantly, smiled at him and remarked that it was so good to see passengers upgraded at times but they should perhaps take note of the rest of the pax for an example of how to behave in this cabin. After the initial bluster all went quiet. CC said thankyou when I got off, she didn't say what for but had that twinkle in her eye. It sounds very snobby looking back but hey, it worked.

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I have a nasty feeling that *I* may be the 'obnoxious adult' :-)

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Let's me off the hook. I've always been obnoxious but resisted growing up. I like getting my own back on pains in 1K and 2K by fully opening my window blind in 1A at the right time, to take advantge of those health giving rays and then apologizing to flight attendants that I need it open to reset my body clock ;-)

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Arrived this morning at T5 following a 12 hour overnight flight.
I counted around 12 kids in Club World including my own.

Met by police at T5 to arrest female passenger who allegedly assaulted a male passenger (and a complete stranger to her,) in Club World kitchen just 90 minutes into flight.

There were lots of screams, shouts and a scuffle in the cabin but not from any of the kids!

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Binman62: Glad you survived this "fight flight"!

It showed there is a "kid" in every man/woman.

May be time to retitle this thread to "badly behaved young/aldut passengers in cabin"

Just arrived London from Hawaii and fortunately there are few if any children on this route!!!

Calm travels to all!

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Binman62 How did the cabin crew handle the situation?

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We did not land or divert and the incident was over in around 10 minutes, so on balance they did a good job. On arrival the "lady" was escorted off the aircraft.

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I was travelling to Addis in Ethiopian Business with my family.last month enroute Joburg
At the rear of the biz cabin was a muslim gentleman and his wife in burqua. Next to them were their two kids aged about 9 yrs old. Next to them was the family maid and a smaller child. At 4 am the two 9year kids wearing noise cancelling headsets woke up all the biz cabin screaming and laughing. Their parents did nothing nor the maid. The crew told them to can it and they ignored them in a demeaning manner. The parents did nothing. I advised the father of his rights which were fast dwindling towards plastic handcuffs and muzzle - this resulted in the wife in burqua taking the kids and locking them in the toilet for 15 minutes as a punishment - of course there is just one toilet in Ethiopian Biz class. Needless to say the family was not the most popular ever to depart the aircraft.

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The solution's really easy. If kids (or adults) are so disruptive in premium class, the senior cabin crew member should issue a downgrade order, uproot them AND their parents from First or Biz and swap them with passengers from Economy who can behave themselves. And no compensation.

I can guarantee it would never happen twice to the same family.

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Someone made the point about people paying serious money for their children to travel business. It's true, but rare - most of the transatlantic business cabins for example are filled with the brats of bankers and business types whose fares are paid for by their employers as part of their expat employment package. At a (major British bank) we used to get tickets every three months for a family visit, for example.

Oh, and off-duty captains, although theirs usually know how to behave !

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Dear Bubu.....You complaint is one that is all to often found today with so called "Modern Families." Children of upper crust families....in some instances do not discipline their children. I as a former airline staff....am well aware of the problems children cause on flights. We used to say in the airline industry....The overhead bins are not for your hand carry items...but for children that are naughty. I now pay for tickets in Business Class....I had a most recent flight from Lima to Mexico City on Lan Peru in Premium Executive Class....Two children of a Mexican family were holy terrors screaming and running up and down the aisles....I complained to the crew...but they were unable or afraid to say something to the parents.....I promptly marched up to the parents and made a strong complaint...of which the father more or less told me to "P__S Off." OK.....So now I had to dig deep in my memory of ex airline bag of tricks.....and went back up to the purser...and asked for her to go to the Captain...and if he would be so kind to save the sanity of the rest of us in Business Class....if he would turn on the seat belt sign.....The captain with smiles to me...was more than happy to turn the seat belt sign on.....The brats were forced back to their seats.....and once buckled up for a few minutes....The children fell asleep.....
Saludos to All

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I got back from Cancun this morning and both outbound and inbound flights in Club World were ruined by screaming children. The offending brats were all with their parents on staff tickets and the fathers were pilots. A gold card holder on the outbound was incandescent with rage and the wailing child's mother looked like she was about to have a nervous breakdown. If you have to travel, fair enough, but taking young children on a 10 hour flight for a holiday is plain daft. Staff should not be allowed to bring kids into the premium cabins.

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I have to say I have had little problem with this. However it is interesting that it seems to get deflected to the airline staff. If I had been told to P**s off by some Mexicans I would be more than capable of conitnuing the covnersation in a negative manner, as Mexican Spanish is very rich in this area. I believe it is as much the responsibility of other passengers to make the views heard to passengers who cannot or choose not to control their children. If they know they will get away with it they will do it. If they know they will get sustained verbal abuse from all sides, they may decide otherwise. As an airline employee there are restrictions on what they can say to passengers particularly in premium cabins on full fare tickets but as a fellow pasenger in the absence of reason I am perfectly within my rights to suggest that they and their offspring go forth and multiply.

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Such behaviour is classified as "Air Rage" 'Unruly or violent behavior of a passenger, caused probably by physiological and/or psychological stresses associated with air travel.'
Since the age of the usual transgressors is below that of an adult then the guardians responsible for such children and their behaviour are inciting air rage by failing to control it. Plastic handcuffs and escort them off the plane on arrival should get their attention.
I woudl point out that it is simply a matter of discipline and of the adults failure to enforce it so they should be advised of the air rage aspect and the likely consequences of arrest and costs of paying for witnesses to travel back and give evidence against them.

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Gentlemen and Ladies......This is a clear case of Parents not able or willing to control their children in Premium Classes......If the children are those of Airline staff...than the staff should be admonished...and never allowed to travel with their off spring again in Premium Cabins

In my 27 years of Airline service...I wass always mindful of Premium Passengers and the amount of revenue they generated.....In the case of those that feel they are entitled...than I say....get a life and get your freaking children under control.
Like...when these children are out in the real world...do you think they can pull this stuff onboard an airliner......NOT.....
In the case of the mexican father that would not control his children.....I told him in customs....that he was no better than the rest of us in Premium Business Class.....He looked at me and said....you are beneath me.....Like I was a servant of his.....I looked at him and said....
Really....than where was your nanny that would accompany you on the flight......He became silent...his wife started to apologize to me...and the whole incident became mute........Children paid in Premium Classes....of course....chiIdren in Premium classes with no manners and parents that will not discipline without the presence of a Nanny....Tacky at best.....no make that no class at best....
Thank you all for allowing me to pass this along...
Cheers Saludos
M

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MickeyMao,
the key is to remain calm, logical and offer no signs of violence. That way condemnation has a greater effect and does not escalate violence or cause such air rage. In much the same way as shouting at Lufthansa when they are late, screw up your connection and then say you fly tomorrow has been proven to achieve nothing whereas calmly suggesting they are not the quality of airline they used to be and asking ironically how you can help them has been proven to work miracles.

michal1027 ¡A Ud Señor!
Sounds like you did a very thorough job at Customs. Maybe we should carry business cards for a travel nanny agency to help the wannabes out? Or maybe Willy if you are listening there is a business opportunity here, rent a BA Nanny, you charge them for Nanny, you charge them for the seat, other pax are happy, you win all round... You can recruit them from UAL whose flight attendants on Hawaii route frighten the heck out of me.. Maybe even make nannies in Premium cabins compulsory :-) wait for the replies........

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When will people learn... its PUBLIC TRANSPORT. If you want to ensure a peaceful flight.. charter a jet, otherwise take your chances

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I agree....it is a messy matter to get involved with either the crew or passengers with parents of naughty children.....As I mentioned above....go to the Purser....suggest that he or she chat with the Captain....and to put on the seat belt sign.....The little rats have no choice but to buckle up.....AND in most cases they will fall asleep.....
cheers to all
M

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Maybe even there is a safety argument to say that small children should be secured by safety belt and adaptor seat if required at all times. They are less experienced and smaller and less able to brace themselves in the event of turbulence.We accept rules in cars so why not planes.
Have to say though I have been fortunate and can count on one hand the bad experiecnes I have had. It may be the destinations I normally use but generally I find parents do a good job.

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Sorry Rich, but i think that idea would lead to even worse behaved children. Imagine how you would feel not being able to stretch your legs on a 10-14 hour flight.

"We accept rules in cars so why not planes", yes but in cars adults need to wear seatbelts at all times as well, so thats fine as long as it applies to everyone.

Im sorry but some people are just anti children. If they even hear a child speak at a NORMAL volume the child is screaming. there are some who still hold to the notion that children should be seen but not heard. I would much rather hear kids chatting playing and laughing than i would hearing a so called professional chatting on his phone, or chatting to his make in the next seat about how great he is.

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Craig, as posted this has not been a problem to me. I feel everyone should behave on planes so they do not incovenience others irrespective of age, sex, creed or race.
Everyone needs to stretch on long flight and visit the bathroom however during the flight I think all passengers should be seated wearing their belts in case of CAT or any other form of unexpected turbulence.
I guess this explains why I find flying first on Japanese carriers nirvana as everyone is very well behaved.

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sorry I didnt mean to imply that you were that type of person RichHI.

And I prefer to be the one standing at the bar with a drink! (if there is a bar onboard)

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Guess I am lazy Craig, I like them to bring the drink to me...... One draw back of modern cabin layouts is windows seats no longer have a passenger next to you to talk to....
Question for you, should kids be at the bar in an airplane as it is outside UK licensing legislation should kids be served alcohol at the bar on planes? One way to make them sleep ;-)

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no kids at the bar, and absolutely not serving to kids!!!

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heres an idea, how about certain aircraft remove the last few rows of seats in economy, put in a sound proofed play room with toys and padded walls in case of turbulence, and charge parents onboard for access for their kids.. i know i would pay it for my kids, just to keep them entertained. Afew planes so equipped and utilized on family friendly routes (orlando anyone!)

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You sir are a genius. Only alteration, put a camera on one channel on IFE then you could keep an eye on them without having to leave the bar.

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Some airlines offer skynannies.

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OK so you have done the kids and the adults but what about noisy crew in the middle of the night having a jolly in the galley!!

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Just heard from a colleague of mine that on a flight last week between Vienna-LHR, a baby was making noise in biz and Austrian cabin staff asked the father and child to relocate to economy.

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Just had 2 horrendous legs on Singapore.

First, a totally obnoxious Aussie who insisted on smelling as badly as he could, drinking as much as he could and "rocking" his seat as much as he could.

Second, two out of control children, whose handlers had not been trained in the art of parenting.

Perhaps the airlines should run some classes on cabin etiquette and parenting skills!

After all, when was the last time you saw a badly behaved child or teenager (i.e. travelling alone without a handler!!). I cant recall any posts relating to unaccompanied minors.

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You lot can be so cruel :( dont forget you were a child once too!!! :p It cant be easy for a child to sit still and quiet for a whole flight. I take it non of you lot have kids?? I find adults the worse they can be so rude and ignorant to not only the crew but the passengers. I love flying with children especially babies and toddlers i some times offer to help the mother and read the child a story make the time go so quickly...there is nothing more comforting than a baby in arms close to me. AWW.. this talk of kids is making me broody..i cant wait to have kids ;) xx

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BeckyBoop - sweetheart, I am more than happy to leave my hotel and purchase some reading glasses if it helps.

Again, you have missed my point, or perhaps it is my English!

Yes the brats, were loud, but the parents (or handlers) were worse by not controlling them.

In very general terms, when I see unaccompanied minors or young teenagers travelling by themselves, there never appears to be any problems with noise.

Most posters agree that kids behave well in airplanes, if taught from an early age, how to behave!

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Martyn, nothing wrong with my eyes or understanding of what you have written. I did read your post and i understand where you are coming from but dont think you have covered all the angles and think you may of miss read mine - dont you (or anyone else) think that any of the problems might me down to the "brats" having ADHD - Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder? this can be very difficult for any parent to cope with.

xx

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Hi,

I heard the best put-down for a while today on Chiltern, in response to an obnoxious adult.

I got on the train and took a window seat, at a table bay. The seat next to me (aisle) was vacant, but the two seats opposite (and the table) were occupied by a "gentleman" sitting in the aisle seat, with his briefcase on the inside (window seat) . A common ruse to ensure no-one sits alongside, as you know.

The entire table was taken up my his laptop, three phones, a notepad and an i Pad. His coffee. A sandwich. And his newspaper.

At Dorridge, an elderly lady alighted and asked if the seat next to me (the aisle seat) was free. I said "of course" and she sat down. She asked the "gentleman" opposite if she could place her handbag on the (common) table. He glared at her and made no attempt to move anything. She then simply moved his paper and coffee cup and pushed his laptop lightly towards him, so she could use the space. Her glared again and spent the next 15 minutes sighing loudly.

This was an extremely well-dressed man in a pin-striped suit, probably in his early fifties. Not some whiz-kid chav.

As the train filled up at Solihull (it was full, no seats available as far as I could see - except the one occupied by the "gentleman's" bag), he avoided eye contact with all alighting passengers and made no effort to move his bag to free up a seat.

He then left the train at Moor Street. He packed away his belongings, still in a clearly irritated mood. As he left, the lady touched his arm and said "Excuse me." He glared at her. She said "Thank you so much for allowing me to share your office." I and a number of other passengers burst out laughing. The "gentleman", of course, just glared.

I agree with Martyn. Most kids are fine. It's the adults who seem increasingly to have no manners.

Off to the Far East in a couple of weeks in the new LX fully-flat seat. I will report back in due course.

Regards and safe travels to all.

Simon

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To All.....As I mentioned before, I worked for an Airline for 27 years...and was allowed to travel in Premium Classes on many flights. I was extremely mindful of the revenue passengers and never once acted up for fear of losing my access to Premium Classes for future flights. I think it is extremely important for parents of children in Premium cabins to ensure the safety, and presence that they are not at home....and in that text discipline their children to let them know they are not at home and amongst other passengers. I agree, it is lovely to hear young children chat and have fun onboard the aircraft....but it is not polite to allow them to run up and down the aisles invading the space of other passengers with either their presence or loud screams.
It is most difficult for flight crew to attack this problem....thus it becomes the responsibility of the parents, and/or other passengers to alert the parents that their "little darling(s)" is being a pain in the arse.
The price of your ticket includes the seat, and passage to your destination.....it does not say anywhere on the reservation....you or your family members can make the flight a living nightmare for others that paid the same air fare. As a child I was always informed before we travelled that I was expected to put on my best manners......that way I would see smiles from other passengers....instead of the dread look like I should be vaporized into outer space.
I cannot insist enough that when we are all travelling in a can at high speed and altitude....we must all remember our manners....from the little child to the grown business man that tips a few to many cocktails....Taking this to heart....may we all have future pleasant and restful flights in Premium Cabins....

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Surely ADHD is a medical condition and as such any child with it ought to be examined and it be determined whether they are fit to fly. If they are not capable of sitting still and keeping quiet for the duration of the flight then IMO they are not fit to fly and no exceptions should be made.

Maybe I'm getting too old for this but when I was young I don't think ADHD existed and parents dealt with the sort of behaviour that is apparently the result of it with a soundly smacked bottom and it was very effective. As MartynSinclair says, it is often down to the inability of the parent/handler to exercise control but of course many younger parents have no idea how to instil discipline anyway.

As for adults who fail to behave, they should be warned once and if that fails to have an effect, arrested on arrival and dealt with by the authorities of the country they land in harshly.

We are entitled to travel in all cabins without harassment from ill mannered people of any age.

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With the greatest respect to all posters and not wishing to cause offence, I do no think this is the correct forum to be discussing ADHD or other Medical issues. I have seen joking references to Bi Polar in other threads and I believe that non clincal use of these terms is ill advised.

Many children who are perfectly healthy find it hard to stay still and quiet and meet the standards of behaviour expected in an adult orientated environment.

In my limited experience these issues are usually caused by either the responsible adult failing to communicate the expected behaviour for the occasion, a continual failure to address societal development (learning appropriateness) , or most common of all taking a child into an unsuitable situation e.g. long flights, over tiredness, too much excitement etc etc.

It is unrealistic for any one to expect children not to behave as children however there are times when parents have to put the needs of their children before their own and if that means avoiding long haul travel with the children for a few years, that is the deal.

I know from experience that many people men and women women find young babies appealing and enjoy helping out in these situations and I intend no disrespect to them in light of what I have posted.

Do not mean to sound pompous but casual use of medical issues can lead to their being devalued and increase misunderstanding and marginalization in society generally.

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Whilst I agree with you Rich, for the most part anyway, I did read a substantive paper a while back that more or less said that a major pharmaceutical company in the US had developed certain drugs and were on the lookout for the symptoms for which these were the cure. ADHD was mentioned at this point. There is always the chance that, once a "cure"is found for badly behaved kids, parents will up sticks, go for the "cure" and no longer accept responsibility for whatever their darlings decide to do or not do. At the same time we all know that kids will be kids, what we need is to accept we all have rights to a bit of space and a bit of piece when cooped up in a metal tube for hours on end.

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Rich - "taking a child into an unsuitable situation e.g. long flights"

I wouldnt consider children are too out of place on a long haul flight with all the pampering and additional space as a % of their body size to seat size. There are more cartoons on the IFE than decent films.

There is no reason for kids to be boisterous on a long haul, once the flight is on its way. Parents and handlers just need to know how to control them. If a zoo keeper can control wikd animals, parents should be able to keep their little darlings under control AND amused for 10 hours.

The medical issues are just a red herring. I have travelled with children and adults where medical issues could really be used as an excuse...............(not prepared to discuss any further on that).

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CX diamond.......Really cannot agree with you. Your comment re ADHD may have been made in jest, I cannot be sure, however if taken to its logical conclusion their are a number of physical and mental ailments which would, if your idea was allowed, prevent the suffers from traveling. Not sure why anyone with any sort of disability should be discriminated against in this way and prevented from travelling.

I would remind everyone that we are discussing public transport no matter where we are sitting and such such we need to be able to cope with the public in all their manifestations.

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I cannot agree with Binman62......yes Public transport....where certain people have paid a great deal more than other passengers.....for the space, for the peace and quiet and for the extra service....we are not talking about a subway ride, a bus ride to work......

As for ADHD....there is one simple word....medicate the child as prescribed by the attending physician.....it is not different with people that are afraid to fly and medicate themselves through their Doctor's discretion...

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lloydah, total agreement. That is the point the I am trying to make that because children have energy and get bored on an aeroplane does not mean they have a medical disease.

Martyn, I am not saying they are out of place, i am speculating what is in the best interests of the children rather than simply looking at it from the perspective of the other passengers or the parents.

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I am not saying all the children who misbehave have ADHD but please be a bit more considerate to the parents or "handler". My aunt has four lovely children (1 girl and 3 boys), all are well behaved except the 2nd youngest (boy) who if you met would swear came from another family, they have tried being very firm even using a smack, meds and even therapy!! all because of ADHD. He is actually very clever for his age and gets surprisingly high marks given his condition and excels at sport. My aunt has in the past cried her heart out to my mum and nan because she finds it so difficult to deal with him. They only fly short haul no longer than 3 hours flying and that is just about tolarble she would never risk going much further. If any of you have children i so pleased they are so perfect for you! Does any airline guarentee quiet zones or child free cabins? xx

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Michal1027 I am sure you are well intentioned however the adminstering of medication without referal to a qualified medical practioner is irresponsible, particularly in the case of children.

Becky, I sympathize with your situation and am glad that violence has been replaced by medical treatment. As well as medication and therapies there are coping mechanisms that the medical profession can advise and cold comfrt though it may be, I would recommend your Aunt pursues this option.

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Rich - odds on that Michal's friend is an adult. Anyone administering 1mg Xanax to a junior needs their heads examining.

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Michal1027, dont tell me your friend is administering 1mg Xanax to a child?

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As I posted, medication should be prescribed by a qualified practioner who will know what is suitable for the particular patient and condition.

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"Alprazolam is one of the most commonly prescribed and misused benzodiazepines in the United States".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alprazolam

I doubt any sane Dr would pescribe 1mg of Xanax to calm a child before a flight.

I have rethought the strength of my response but feel it will probably be safer to not publish it.

1mg of Xanax to a child, alarming to say the least.

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I fear this is no longer about naughty children and more about child abuse. Such medication for a for a child is wholly disproportionate and probably illegal in the truest sense.

The idea that we should also discriminate against the disabled in order to have a better flightis is simply repugnant to me.

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Binmann62 and Martyn.....Let's get one thing straight...I did not give a child the 1/2 of 1mg of xanax......It is not my child.......I only passed along the information......I do not have children and never have had children....What another individual does with their child is their business...and I respect that.......... and with this response I wish everyone the best of days

cheers

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Aww bless Rich, thanks for your kind words hun :o) xx my aunt is doing alot better these days she gets help and support from family and friends. I also baby sit for her from time to time to give her a break :o) xxx

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Thinks....

Surely it's possible to adapt the tech used in those excellent Bose sound-deadening headphones to filter out a screaming child?

In fact, there's a market here. Filter out snoring, laughing and (soon), "YES, I'M ON A PLANE! NO, THE SERVICE IS CRAP..." high-octane phone calls.

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I wear my Bose Nc's sometimes even without being plugged into anything just to do this. Worksvery well - i call them my Bratbusters..

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As a child I understand my mother would add a few drops of brandy to my milk before our regular flights from Rhodesia to the UK to encourage sleep. I have no idea if this was harmful or not but I'm sure it would not be allowed today.

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Wasn't the original gripe water found to be something like 50% ABV?

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I though that was an urban myth like Cocaine in Coca Cola ? I shall have to check Snopes

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You're right, it seems. 3.6% ABV, says Wiki. Shame.

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Looks like the hotel industry, albeit the top end to begin with is waking up to the needs of kids and their parents. The article is interesting in that the rationale for what they are doing is clearly profit not just from families with kids but also from the other guests.

Whilst these are not the type of hotels to which I would take my children, I have long argued that the main problem parents encounter when travelling with kids is the lack of facilities on board aircraft. No cutlery, headphones or other items designed specifically for them and crew who often see them as an irritant, particularly in premium cabins.

Airlines really should look at what is being done by these two top end hotels and should in my view be benchmarking their service with them. Children are a lucrative market and have a lifetime of spending ahead of them.

Airlines....time to wake up and smell the babychino.......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14842745

Perhaps would have helped if I had posted this earlier

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Ah, this hoary old chestnut is getting another run ;-)

Arranging our flights to USA (JFK, SEA, GEG and LAX) in a couple of weeks - J and F with any luck.

Should be fun to see done of the faces again when we board with our 2 and 5 year olds in tow and position ourselves in the premium cabins.

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Four Seasons Hotels are very good when it comes to looking after children any where from food to amenity kits in the rooms to activites in the hotels during holiday times.

Binman dont the airlines have amenity kits for children with crayons, colouring books, small toy, cards and badges anymore?

Lindsay hun dont worry about taking your kids in to a J or F cabin just because others wont approve, they have just as much right to be there as any other pax flying in the cabin :) xx

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BeckyBoop, certainly not worried at all, took them in May 2011 to HKG, England & Europe in J & F without too many issues (as reported here in this thread). We found that whilst all the airlines (CX, QF and BA) supplied kids packs, nothing was better than s personal DVD player (for our then 4 y.o.) and toys (for our then 18 month old).

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The tone of some of these posts irritates me. I have no problem with Children or infants in any cabin. I have a major problem with people inconveniencing or annoying others whether they are adult, child or baby.

Every one is entitled to bring their children onto a plane in any class they choose. That entitlement does not mean they have the right to cause annoyance nor shoudl any other passenger.

WHen I was young and taken on planes, it was made very clear if I misbehaved I would not come again. And we are not just talking about screaming, shouting, kicking seats. Most parents I encounter on planes do a sterling job of controlling their children and a few lousy parents who do not care give the rest a bad name. My one prohibition is young babies who cannot control the pressure differencein their ears and suffer pain and fear. I would impose a ban on very young babies flying, much as Mothers to be near term are banned without medical certification,

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When I was a child the message from parents was the same as Rich, behave or be left behind and I always behaved.

I adopted a different approach which was the privilege had to be worked for and earned so while Mrs LPPS and I travelled in F or C, nanny and kids always travelled in Y. Mean maybe but nowadays they can all afford to travel in F & C off their own bat and sometimes they pay for us too.

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Dear oh dear.

More aggressive posters are joining the Forum. WesternImperialist for example.

As far as what has been posted in concerned, I agree with most of it.

As for Becky, the more (s)he posts, the less credible her persona becomes. One day it's "yoof speak" (with carefully mis-spelt words and poor punctuation); next time, all of that has gone. One minute it's all about budget travel, next minute it's about Premium cabins and Four Seasons. Not bad for an (alleged) PA.

Whilst I am now darned sure she is not VK, I'm also darned sure (s)he is not who or what (s)he makes out to be.

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Dear Simon

If BeckyBoop turned out to be a computer with the ability to think and write, would it matter?

You would probably increase processing power and add RAM then eventually turn it in order a new model.

Who ever / whatever BB is, she's fun and this is cyberspace, where it really doesn't matter

Martyn

ps - if we ever do meet BB I promise to buy you a drink or a new hard drive, whatever is more appropriate. I will also unreservedly apologize if offence has been taken - you sound fun and I am sure you will take this post in the spirit it is intended.

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Dear Mr Rowberry,

Further to your post earlier today at 29/02/2012 16:12 GMT. It may interest you to know that I am actually trying exceptionally hard to improve my posts so they look and sound more professional. So if I have time I will type them in Word and correct the necessary grammar and punctuation before posting them online.

It may interest you to know when I am on travelling on business all my expenses (transport, meals and accommodation) are taken care of by my employer. When I travel for personal reasons such as annual leave, my budgets have much more financial constraints.

My job is a PA and it’s true that I do post a lot on this forum. My work does not just limit me to a regular 9 to 5 Monday to Friday. I do work quite considerably out of hours and even on weekends.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding or unanswered questions that you may have about me.

Yours sincerely,

Rebecca.

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I think BB would prefer new heels (red ones) based on posts. I think you can get Heels for Windows not sure for Mac ...

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Dear Martyn,

I prefer to think I'm dealing with real people who have some integrity in this forum and I respect many of the posters.

I do not however respect someone who changes opinions minute by minute, contributes little knowledge and has something to say about everything. It just lowers the value of the offering.

I'm sure we will have to agree to differ.

Henkel.

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Dear Henkel

You are an intelligent individual. This is cyberspace, where one needs to manage expectations and relationships.

Without a personal relationship, the only "integrity" is in the post.

I think it would fun to create a new thread asking the regulars to describe how they imagine each other to be (on second thoughts, may be not).

Have a great rest of the day Henkel - life is good

Regards

Martyn

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No mate - I couldn't care less if she is a PA. It's about people being what they say you are.

And what you are is someone who has brought this Forum to a new level of abuse. Well done.

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BT well done for deleting the abusive post.

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Apologies if any posts now appear out of context on this thread - a poster has just been banned and all his/her posts deleted for extremely offensive language.

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Well done.

Simon

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Shame I missed the excitement! I was busy walking with elephants today. An amazing experience!

Hasn't this thread now been flogged to death. If you're looking to make some more space on your servers BT, may I politely suggest this thread is a candidate for removal???

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LP - walking with the elephants is somehting I have been trying to do for ages, some good places in Thailand I believe.

I would love to read about it and see the pics.

Just to ensure there is no thread drift, were there any obnoxious baby elephants and how were they controlled by the adult elephants.

There should be a thread for interesting experiences. Hope you are able to post an elephant report and show some pics.

After all it is a form of transport still in some parts of the world.

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You did not miss much LP. You know the large round things that the elephants leave periodically, well that is what we encountered here. Though probably of a loweer quality.
Did some work with an elephant about 30 years ago and they are wonderful creatures. I envy you.

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It was amazing Martyn, and if I could post a pic I would. And those big mama's really know how to keep the naughty little one in control. To be up close and touch one of these amazing beasts is truly unforgettable.

Rich, my kids were playing football with the dried dung. Until Mrs. LP saw them that is, then it was over! It must have been fascinating working with them?

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Looks like I missed all the fun as well. That will teach me to sleep and to be in a different time zone to the rest of you.

Seems that it was WesternImperialist's post(s) that was (were) deleted - I remember reading their first post in this thread early this morning (my time) as I was having my walk. I was going to reply, then decided against it - always better to ignore trolls and it cuts off their oxygen.

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LindsayW - looks like your thoughts were the same as mine, tempted to respond but the thought better of it.

Turning to other posts on walking with elephants may I encourage everybody that has the chance to do this. I was lucky enough to be raised in Africa (Rhodesia) and got to spend a lot of time in the bush as a boy where interacting with elephants happened every few months during migration times. They are truly magical animals and one can 'see' their intelligence and strong family units. It is also remarkable how such a large animal moves so quietly .

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Charles-P, I put it down to my experience as a Moderator on another FF BB. I'm usually deleting those kind of comments, giving members short holidays or banning them outright.

I've been fortunate enough to have done an elephant trek in Thailand in 2003 with my then girlfriend. It moved me enough to propose a couple of days later. We were also fortunate to have a baby elephant at our hotel/resort and enjoyed learning about them from its handler

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Please dont shout at me for the thread drift, had a long day but would like to ask if the posters who mentioned elephant experience could advise on the best place in Thailand or is it too commercialised.

I have no problem if the baby elephants are obnoxious, but would mind if the mummy and daddy were, as that would trouble!

Thanks and aplogies for the drift.

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