In which our correspondent makes a special request to parents travelling with their children – strap them in and shut them up...

Before we begin, may I state for the record that I don’t have a problem with children – especially when they are muzzled. Believe it or not, I was once one myself, and were I not one of those abhorrent women that decided they preferred globe-trotting to babysitting, I may even have tried motherhood out.

No, it’s children who interrupt my travelling life that I have a problem with – or, more specifically, the parents of such children, who as I see it fall into the following categories:

The hard-of-hearing parent

You all know this one. Presumably listening to little Crispin or Flora scream their way through their infant years has affected the hearing of this mum or dad – why else do they feel the need to speak to their child at the top of their voice, subjecting everyone else to the minutiae of their lives?

Take the mother I recently encountered on board, who bellowed in a ridiculous baby voice: “Has Raymond done a poo? Yes, I think you have! What a clever boy, to have done a big poo!” I know your child has defecated, because I can smell it. Stop talking, take him to the toilet and why don’t you create a five-strong queue while you’re at it, as you attempt to clean him up in an area you couldn’t swing a hamster in?

The overindulgent parent

Typified by the mums and dads who buy their toddlers a Trunki. You know what Trunkis are – those stupid little pull-along cases that let your little darling think they are a bone fide member of the travelling public. Yes, let’s take up all the space in the overhead locker with a plastic monstrosity in the shape of a Gruffalo containing nothing but a teddy bear and a colouring book. What a brilliant idea.

But have you ever seen a child looking after their own Trunki? Of course not – after spending the flight crying until they vomit, banging the back of the seat in front and getting up and down to the toilet every ten minutes, they have tired themselves out. So instead you see these parents trudging towards immigration with their kid in one arm and dragging the Trunki along with the other – tripping up any unobservant travellers while they’re at it. Magic.

The school-dodging parent

Folks, you have 12 weeks of the year to whisk your children off around the world. That’s 84 days, or 2,016 hours, or 120,960 minutes. This I know, and if I am honest, try to plot my trips around if possible, so I am not besieged by bratty kids in the airline lounge or deafened by them on the plane. So why, oh why, do I then find my peace disturbed in term time by harassed parents with red-faced, sombrero-sporting munchkins in tow? Are you too posh to holiday with the hoi polloi, or too cheap to travel peak-time? Or are your little ones so clever that they don’t need to attend the whole school year?

The queue-jumping parent

Well, not strictly queue jumping, as airlines seem to think it’s a good idea to board people with kids first, along with the business passengers. So having paid a premium for my flight, I then find myself jostled out of the line by some overbearing mother with three wailing brats attached to her leg. Board them last when they’re less likely to hold the whole plane up.

The make-yourself-at-home parent

Yes, it’s lovely that business cabins are becoming more spacious and luxurious. That doesn’t mean you can use every extra inch for the entertainment purposes of your child. Take a recent flight to Asia, when one couple commandeered the space around the bulkhead as a play area for their boy. Toys and books everywhere, and after all that the child wouldn’t even sit still, running around like a sugar-fuelled lunatic. People, here’s a novel idea – strap them up in front of one of the rubbish animated films they clog the in-flight entertainment system with. Alvin and the Chipmunks: The Squeakwell isn’t on there for my benefit.

The saint-like parent

Still, they’re not all bad, like one father I recently encountered on board. I must admit I cast around for spare seats when I saw him and his charge plonk themselves down next to me on a flight home from Europe, but even I was impressed by the way he dealt patiently with the unending questions of his sweet but inquisitive boy. In fact, so heart-warmed was I that I swapped seats with the child so he could watch us come in to land. And then I leaned over and muzzled him.

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Two words: play outside

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why make such a wonderful post anonymous?

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genius - so true though!!

A couple of years ago I was on a flight home from LAX watching a movie. This kid appeared out of no where and threw an apple at me - hit me right in the cheek and gave me a faint black eye!

Needless to say I was less than impressed especially since I got no apology from the parents - mainly because they were nowhere to be seen!! Kid picked the apple back up from my lap, giggled and diappeared off to the back of the plane.

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There is an extensive forum on “obnoxious kids in business class” and this adds nothing to the debate. It is the usual diatribe from the "do you know who I am” brigade who do not pay for their tickets and yet happily criticise their fellow passengers for having the temerity of traveling in with those who will pay for their pensions in later life. I might add and who invariably pay their own fares and increasingly at no discount to the adult fare.

No doubt the poster is remaining anonymous as he was the utterly objectionable individual in 3A on board a Qantas flight recently who threw a complete hissy fit as the doors closed at Heathrow. Why…
well because there was a baby 6 feet behind him. He huffed and puffed his inflated ego to such an extent I thought he was going to burst.

The infant meanwhile was serene and quite accompanied by her serene and composed mother who ignored the tantrum of the overweight and overbearing bore in front of her.

He moved to another seat and 6 hours later the cabin was entertained, if that is the expression, to the sounds of his snoring and flatulence simultaneously.

The infant slept; the mother did too, and had it not been for the bore in front, I think the other 10 in cabin might have had some sleep too. Alas it was not to be.

When will we have a wheeze of a posting on just “the obnoxious in any class?” they outnumber kids by a country mile.

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I think I wrote a comment to a similar diatribe about 30 years ago - which dates me.

There is every likelihood that many of these parents are more frustrated and stressed than you over the charges they have to bring along on the plane. Many of their actions and reactions can probably be explained by their concern and stress, not least bing afraid of generating venomous looks from "adult " passengers who are so lacking in empathy that they cannot generate a minimum of understanding of the trial the child and parent can go through - stuffed in a tin box at low pressure for many hours.

I typically, particularly from Asia, find up to several children - of all ages - spread around the Business class cabin. Very seldom do I find that they cause any nuisance, apart from what is natural to expect.

Worst of all with the posting, it is just a venting of frustration without any goal or solution in sight.

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However many complaints there are about noisy children (and yes I have made some in the past) in the main they are from people who dont have any. Children = Noise is not always the case - as - Adults = "snoring and flatulence simultaneously" is not always the case.

However, the day you dont hear a child crying or laughing at all,...... is the saddest day of all.

Earplugs and "sleep enhancement" usually does the trick.

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@MartynSinclair - Nice response.

Clearly this post was just to get a bit of interaction going. I'm in social marketing so I appreciate that one.

Before I had a child I would have probably agreed with everything you said. However, as we all have to grow up (eventually) and have offspring of our own (hopefully) you too will eventually become one of the parents you so despise. The simple fact is that a child can be controlled up to some point but when they get tired you have no hope.

I agree with @MartynSinclair in that it is also a cultural thing. European kids tend to be far more unruly than Asian kids. Look at all the ASBOS.

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Binman - We all know adults on planes can be as disruptive as the kids - I'm sure we've all experienced that situation!

And not all flights taken by posters on this forum are business trips. It is a little annoying when you've paid 2k for a return flight and you are kept awake half the night by noisy kids.

I know in that situation it's generally no one's fault - not the airline, kid or parent - but it doesn't change that fact valuable sleeping/relaxing time (which you've paid a heavy price for) can be lost because of it.

I just thought the post was well written and a bit of fun and clearly to be taken with a pinch of salt. I can't imagine the writer really muzzled the child next to her!

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Oh what a refreshingly politically-incorrect essay! I've been lucky I guess, but I enjoyed the humor. I have been known to sweetly ask a loud parent if her child is hearing impaired, but only when I'm really in a cranky mood. For those of you who were offended, lighten up!

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Brilliant Anonymous. Totally agree.

Please, now do an essay on 'coughers' and one on 'two women talking loudly and incessantly for 9 hours' (maybe I am not allowed to say that!).

I came back from CPT recently in Club and had a cougher on the other side of the aisle, a snorer beside me and a screaming child behind me...and the flight was almost full. The CSD was very sympathetic and allowed me to sit on the crew seat at the top of the stairs for a couple of hours...just to escape the noise.

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What a load of tosh from a non-parent. Read the other posts on other threads. When are some of YOU going to grow up? As said elsewhere, it's far more the egocentric so-called business traveller, who acts like a total prat and doesn't even pay for his ticket who causes the problems.

Rarely if ever have I had a problem with children. I found the posting offensive and typical of someone who has never been there. Grow up, BT. Idiotic and biased posting that is below your usual standards Tom.

Simon

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You missed the subject, Simon. It's not about the children, it's about the adults. Everyone deserves a comfortable environment - people of any age who make noise in publoic places need to learn some manners. Adults need to teach them manners, it's part of parenting.

I don't know what a prat is, but thinking that business people don't pay for their tix is really ignorant.

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With respect Judy, you don't seem to understand the nuances of the English language. I need not comment further. You missed the point. Sorry I don't have command of Hungarian to respond.

I will say this. I own my Company. I pay for my tickets, in whatever class I choose. The vast majority of business travellers do NOT pay directly for their tickets as they don't own their company. Quod erat demonstrandum.

And please don't call me or anyone else on this Forum ignorant. It is unnecessary and uncalled for.

Regards. Simon

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This post has really touched a nerve with some embarrassed parents...!! Lighten up.

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Yes. Lighten up! I took the Anonymous post with a pinch of salt but there's certainly some truth in it. As someone who's family has been in the "education" business I know as well as anyone there are good and bad parents as well as good and bad children. I'd no more let mine sit and yell in any class when flying any more than they would ruin a performance at the theatre or cinema. It just that some parents think theirs are the only kids on this earth and don't or won't do anything to stop them infringing on the personal space of others. And that includes noise. Badly brought up children grow into the thoughtless selfish adults you sometimes come across in F.

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Iloydah - I agree with you.

Openfly - I'm not an embarrassed parent at all. Far from it. Don't make such arrogant assertions.

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Well said binman & Simon Rowberry.

It is becoming a boring topic throughout the internet about kids in premium cabins. If their ticket has been paid for, they have just as much right to access the service as the next person. Honestly, I have yet to find a post about noisy kids on the tube or the number 74 going to Wandsworth.

I find the irritating employee going to a really big meeting in bus. class far more objectionable than any of the kids I have come across in 30 years of flying.

Time to grow up folks, it is a means of transport and unless you are David Beckham with your own plane, you will need to get used to the fact that many people use this method of transportation.

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Absolutely with you on this, Northseatiger.

Thanks for standing up and being counted!

What I find sad is that given the extensive correspondence on this issue on at least two other threads, one must wonder whether BT published this "article" simply to stir up some controversy and elicit responses.

Simon

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Simon Rowberry - you are quite right that the posting elicited 19 responses. Perhaps Mr (or Mrs). Anonymous makes these postings holding a big wooden spoon, to simply create debate - I guess that this is what the forum is here for, although I do note the rising temperatures in some, who responded.

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Simon, you don't have to respond in Hungarian, we speak English in Minnesota. What is a prat? Is it related to unnecessary noise? I plead ignorance.

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Hey Judy - since moving to London I have had to keep a dictionary close to me for this very reason, however, "prat" is not mentioned in my Oxford Dictionary. Send my love to Woodbury if you are near there.

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Judynagy

I ask expat colleague what means 'prat.'

It rude word, but means something like ignorant idiot.

I been Minnesota, with great respect you no speak English there, you speak American.

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Hi Binabdulaziz.

Actually it technically means 'buttock' and it is an extremely mild word, like 'pillock.'

Also, to be a pedant, there is no such language as "American." The language is English.

Cheers, Simon

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Hi Mr SImon

Pillock. Sounds like small hill :-)

About American, I learning ironey from expat colleagues!

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..and while we're focusing on language, I think Mr Binman might have meant "boor" (churlish, rude, or unmannerly) rather than "bore". Simultaneous 'snoring and flatulence ' isn't boring.

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Brad - it's actually probably quite hard to do, as well!!

Simon

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Apparently not for the traveller sleeping next to me on a recent QF flight Simon. But we bring down the tone of the thread so I propose an end to it!

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Good call, Brad!

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Did anyone see the story about the screaming kid who made the passenger next to him, ears bleed? Crazy story. She wants to blame the airline rather than the kids parent's. - not that there's anything you can do to keep a kid from screaming in that situation but equally not much the airline can do about screaming kids...

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http://uk.travel.yahoo.com/p-promo-3312569

Good final quote in that piece...

The court also heard about an email Mrs Barnard sent, which read: "I guess we are fortunate my eardrum was exploding and I was swallowing blood.

"Had it not been for that, I would have dragged that kid out of his mother’s arms and stomped him to death. Then we would have an 'international incident'."

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I guess it just shows how certain people will do anything to make money.

Sad, pathetic, ignorant, legitous, manipulative etc are words that immediately spring to mind. And greedy.

The total bloody idiot who made my life a misery on a flight yesterday (see LX 188 thread ibid) was not a kid by any means. He was a prat because he tried to smuggle his economy-ticket carrying partner into Business Class and then got aggressive when she was evicted - and rightly so.

As I've said all along, it is NOT the kids, it's the adults. That's US, friends. You and me.

Simon

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I reckon I am the first parent type listed, but as long as my son doesn't grow up to be like the spoilt bastard that the "anonymous" (how brave) writer clearly is I'll be happy. They bought a ticket - not the whole f#$@ing plane:) - And you gotta love this line.....

"were I not one of those abhorrent women that decided they preferred globe-trotting to babysitting, I may even have tried motherhood out"

So being a parent and wanting/needing to travel makes one "abhorrent" does it? And in what universe does this person live, where you can "try motherhood out"? How does that work - if you don't like it you can take the child back for a refund or exchange it for a puppy?? Piss off -it would probably be more accurately expressed as -

"were I not one of those hard faced, power dressing,corporate ladder climbing ball crushers I may even have tried motherhood out, but for some reason nobody seems to want to sleep with me."

There - that's my 2 cents:)

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Absolutely brilliant post.

The pity is that I bet Tom feels he has to delete it. I hope not, Tom! ; )

Simon

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This line is not quite complete.....

""were I not one of those hard faced, power dressing,corporate ladder climbing ball crushers I may even have tried motherhood out, but for some reason nobody seems to want to sleep with me."

It's missing "without wearing two condoms."

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I loved reading this thread. I am fortunate enough to have two wonderfully well-behaved children who have never created, on any flight (and we do a lot of travel, much of it long-haul between Europe and Asia), more than a total of 20 minutes noise over a 12+ hour flight. Except once. When nothing worked. During that flight, I realised that my (relatively abstemious) wife wasn't coping when she had already had four glasses of wine and started asking for port. Fact is, all kids have bad days and on those days, if you are unfortunate enough to be on a plane with them, there is absolutely nothing you can do - but those occasions are extremely rare, and frankly in 9 cases out of 10 it *is* the parents' fault for not keeping their kids in line and/or being sufficiently prepared and dedicated to keep them amused. However, I also have to agree that on many occasions it is the fellow business traveler who is far more objectionable - the fact is that kids have relatively little self-control, whereas all adults should have plenty, especially those successful enough to be in the premium cabin. The worst example I came across was on a Cathay flight in first class where the moment a couple boarded with their child (who was probably about 7) this pompous ass (who was a true boor and bore) started sounding off in a very loud voice to anyone who would listen (which, at that volume, was most of the plane). I found that behaviour far more objectionable than the child's.

Yes, we all like being in the premium cabin for the space, the comfort and - we hope - the quiet. Fact is, though, we have to accept that this is public transport. Anyone who can pay can get on. If people are being wilfully disruptive or making no effort at all to control their children, then by all means complain and remonstrate. Otherwise, and particularly if the parents are doing their best to keep their child amused and quiet, "suck it up"...

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@HongKongIan, my goal is to be able to say exactly what you said, after our flights BNE/PER/HKG/LHR/PRG...CDG/LHR/HKG/MEL/BNE next year.

We must also remember the quote from Voltaire when replying to another posters' comments:

"I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write."

Attack the message, not the poster.

Similar to others, I took Anonymous's post in a light hearted manner and could had similar feelings to their experiences. Yes, I've been in the vicinity of both children and adults alike, each for their own reasons distrupting the tranquility of flight. Unless it directly disturbs my personal space or hearing, I let them be. Headphones are a God-send.

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I had to share this gem of intolerant behaviour which my wife and I experienced yesterday on a Monarch A321 flight back from the Balearics with our 3 young children (3,2 and 6 months).

We were allocated a row of 3 and the adjacent aisle seat - my wife elected to sit with the baby on her lap in the latter seat and found herself sharing with a middle-aged couple. As soon as she sat down the male grumbled loudly "J***s! I don't believe it", well within earshot of most of the passengers around.

He continued to grumble under his breath every few minutes as the flight progressed, only pausing to forcibly ram the seat of the woman sat in front of him forwards when it inadvertantly reclined a few inches.

Our baby was extremely well behaved and later in the flight was giggling away and attracting lots of smiles from fellow passengers and crew.......but not from his nibs next door who then exclaimed "J***s! Somebody bloody strangle it!!" We weren't the only people to look shocked.

He got his come-uppance however when, following a "briefing" with my wife in the toilet, my 3 year old son emerged to loudly exclaim to me that "mummy is sitting with a grumpy old troll", again well within earshot of all!!

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Flightdoctor, wonderful story - but your wife should have asked "old grumps" to hold a nappy (clean or otherwise!!) as the baby was being changed in the seat!

Where would we be in this world, if there were no babies to complain about!!!!!!!!!!

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Looks like MAS have taken the lead here by banning babies in their 1st cabins and have now extended this to the 380 (didn't know they had any?) by providing no bassinets.

What do we all think?

I'll be hypocritical now, by saying my kids are no longer babies so have to agree. Ouch, can already feel the daggers!!!

http://tinyurl.com/3aomak8

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Earlier this month the refreshingly outspoken Azmil used Twitter to defend MAS' decision not to install bassinets in the first class cabin of its Boeing 747-400 fleet, as a result of which parents with infants are not permitted to travel in first class and have to book in the bassinet-equipped business or economy sections instead.................................................................................................................................er......no...Mr CEO of MAS ....you take your considerable spending power and fly with someone else.

This is a silly idea especially for MAS who frankly need all the help they can get. I suspest It may have more to do with domestic Malaysian politics that any thing to do with hard nosed business sense. After all what right minded airline is going to pass up 10% of the First adult fare and yet not provide a seat, meal or any other service.

As a parent who kids have travelled First since they were 8 weeks old I am offended by such gimmicks, as it says a great deal about the attitude this carrier has towards families. As such, and whilst i am not a frequent MAS passenger, I would now almost ceratinly avoid them in the future, and not just in First Class.

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I agree with the contributors who say that the problems caused by children on flights are problems caused by adults. These unruly children grow up and do not change (usually).

But I would like to ask about the role of cabin crew in this.

On a recent 12 hour Iberian flight we were accompanied by a mother with three small children (about 3 and 5 years old with a babe of 4 or 5 months). She travelled with a friend who obviously was not a mother. The family had come from Brussels and transfered in Madrid to meet the father at the destination.

The small children acted as well as could be expected, the mother being helped by her friend and my wife to a certain extent. The babe, however, cried for almost the whole flight and only slept ( for about an hour ) because it was obviously exhausted.

During all this period the crew only appeared to hand out the meals while the rest of the time they stayed in the galley and chatted - and the flight was only about 60% full.

I ask if, under their duties, the cabin crew are expected to help out an overworked mother, especially as the noise disturbed other passengers? Do the crew wash their hands of the whole affair? Is everybody dependent on the crew´s goodness of their hearts?

What is the situation in such a case? I was pretty indignant that they hid in the galley and did not help at all. Any comments?

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I think much depends on the crew. I can't imagine IB crew lifting a finger to do anything they don't have to do. OTOH, I've seen SIA crew on a busy flight almost take over the care of a baby from an over tired mother and allowed her to rest and they did a stunning job keeping the baby quiet for almost ten hours between SIN-CHC.

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I could also imagine child protection issues could step in on European flights, where Middle Eastern and Asian airlines are not burdened by these over zealous regulations.

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LuganoPirate.......no child protection issues in Europe....or rather on BA or UK airlines. All UK crew have CRB to enhanced level in orderv that children who are unaccompanied can travel safey and in full compliance with UK regulations and statutory requirements. In any event if the parent or guardian are present there is again no further issue.
The child protection regulations are indeed zealous but until someone comes up with a way to better protect children I for one back them to the hilt.

They should not however be used as an excuse for idleness on the part of crew.

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Hi All,

My Lord - a sensible, constructive and non-emotive discussion on this thread for once. Well done!

I agree with the comments made about cabin crew. However, I guess it also depends on whether or not they have other passengers whose demands they have to meet. Like, for example, one of the now grown-up (physically but not mentally or spiritually) spoilt kids demanding a drink every few minutes and also wants to know why the IFE is full of "crap" films and can't work it anyway; the drunk who really shouldn't have been let on in the first place, having imbibed too much on one of his rare visits to a Lounge as he usually flies economy, but now he's in Business he wants to get as much out of it as possible and Lords it over everyone; the passenger who has brought on too much hand baggage and has had to store it in the crew's locker and demands access to it continually. We've all seen it......

Cheers and safe travelling,

Simon

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It is all fine what you say but nobody has yet come down to the moot point. Should airline crews be obliged to help out in these circumstances?

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Transaxman,

No. They should be OBLIGED to help out. That would be impracticable. I think they should help out if and when they are able, when it is appropriate and when it would be to benefit of both the family and the other passengers in the cabin. They cannot be perceived as alternative baby minders.

It should be "horses for courses" based on circumstances and the crew's judgment (and willingness).

Simon

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Whoops - I missed the crucial word "not" out in the first sentence! It should've read "should not be OBLIGED to help out."

Sorry!

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I fully agree. Crew are not there as substitute nannies or baby sitters. god for bid something goes wrong, and it is an American or a Brit, can you say Lawsuit!!! Of course the crew avoid helping out, society has created the situation with the fear of litigation.

That said, some of the comments here have been ridiculous from the first fun commentary by Anonymous! It seems that according to some on this blog that those of us that complain about children in premium cabins have no right to do so, as we apparently have not had children or understand the demands on parents. Tough!! I choose not to have children, I also choose not to be disturbed by unruly uncontrolled brats whose parents think little Johhny's expressing himself is 'cute.' It's not!

The original post was hilarious, and well written. Kids will be kids, and I believe for the most part all of us accept that, however, when parents completely neglect their role in controlling their children when their behaviour moves into disruptive, inpolite, annoying levels, to the dis-comfort of others, whether in a plane, train, restaurant, or hotel lobby they need to be corrected. It is not an excuse to say that parenting is hard or that we were all children once, I know I would never have gotten away with behaviour like that I have recently witnessed, when I was young. And believe me, in Holland, where parenting has taken on a role of 'let them express themselves as they wish' it can be very trying for those of us looking for some rest on board! And the minute you complain you are looked at as the villain.

I once saw a parent in Holland in a hotel, whose little treasure was playing under a table set up for a brunch. He was playing with the table cloth and slowly slowly the dishes were moving to the edge. When an employee of the hotel asked the non-attentive parent to remove her child from under the table, mommy dearest went balistic. I so wish the employee let the kid carry on, plates fall all over him, screaming ensues, then whose fault would it have been? Shame it didn't happen, lesson lost. But happy that I was a witness and would have offered my assistance to the hotel free of charge when mommy dearest and an opportunistic lawyer tried to sue the hotel for endangering the child. Parents, Take responsibility!!!!

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Dutchyankee,

Totally disagree with you. Sorry buddy. Live in both the real world and 2011.

As most of us agree (even you, chap) - it's usually the parents, NOT the kids to blame.

Let's agree to disagree on this one.

And by the way, my wife is Dutch (ergo our son is half Dutch) - we have NEVER taken an "express themselves as they wish attitude." Nor have any Dutch families that I know. It seems like you're stereotyping by nationality. I guess by your tone that you're more "Yankee" than "Dutch."

Why not now how have a go at the Swedes or the Norwegians, where it is illegal to smack a child (and yet the kids seem still to be so well mannered - strange that)?

But as you say, you've chosen not to have kids. Your choice, but I suggest you've missed a lot in life. But above all, you know Jack about bringing kids up so please don't criticise those of us who have chosen so to do and also (Heaven forfend) chosen to travel with them and (for Goodness sake!) in a premium cabin.

No DY - you go and enjoy yourself with the travel boors that I referred to above - those that know better but generally don't give a monkey's about anyone but themselves. For myself, I'll go off and continue to do what I've always done - travel with my child in a Premium cabin AND also been sensitive to the needs of other passengers. Pity those other passengers are not always equally sensitive in return. Also, I pay for both of our tickets - I guess that many (but I accept not all) of the boors I refer to do not, as their Company pays. Vive le difference.

Rant over.

Met groetjes,

Simon

PS And neither Binman nor I have ever said that parents should not take responsibility - read all of our previous posts carefully and you'll discover that. So at least we can agree on the responsibility issue. Actually, come to think of it I don't really know what the point of your post is.

PPS And I've never said that you don't have the right to complain. You do. Equally, I have the same right to complain when another passenger acts like a prat. Which in my experience is on most flights these days alas. Far more troublesome than any kids I've come across.

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Simon,

As you say agree to disagree. Born in the USA, but have lived outside since 6 months of age, so definitely more Dutch. Currently maintain homes in Both Belgium and Holland (as well as in Florida and France) and have plenty of experience with Dutch new-age parents who believe their kids should be allowed to behave as they will.

I have not criticised anyone for choosing to have children, good for you and the others who feel this is what makes them/you happy. In the same vane, don't patronise me for choosing not to by saying 'I suggest you have missed a lot.' I disagree.

And to say I don't know Jack about raising kids is ridiculous. I am quite an experienced and involved uncle, and truly love children. Of course, having kids of my own would be different, but I would still do my utmost to ensure that they were raised in such a way not to infringe upon others. As for enjoying travelling with other boors, and that somehow I dont care about anyone else, is simply unfair and ignorant. I think I was pretty clear, my complaint is with endulgent parents.

Of course, there are plenty of passengers who somehow feel above others, feel entitled, and I can not stand them either, VK comes to mind. However, I am by no means like that, and it is B.S. for you to suggest that as I have never said anything that would indicate such.

And by the way, as I have clearly stated in many of my posts, I actually pay all my own tickets, so you do not 'own' that argument either. Be fair in your posts, and refrain from trying to make parents seem somehow better than those of us who aren't. You're not!

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Simon,

P.S. The point of my post was initially to agree with the comment, yours by the way as I often agree with you, regarding crew helping out. And then I looked at the full thread which started with a rather hilarious post regarding absent parents. So I added my view; gosh, I though that was the idea of this blog, or is it only for Parents to lambast those of us who actually dare to complain about mis-behaving children. And when we do, we are told we dont know 'Jack' about raising children.

P.P.S. I fully respect your absolute right to complain about any obnoxious, misbehaving, loud, flatulent, drunk, entitled, adult, prat, and applaud you for it. Undoubtedly, more of my flights have been disturbed by that lot versus disruptive children, however, the initial point of this thread was about parents and their mis-behaving children.

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DY,

Criticism accepted and due apologies given.

However, if you'd read the earlier posts I had made on this subject (and Binman's are in a similar vein), you'd see that we both agree on one thing - it is down to parents to "control" their kids. And that goes beyond just when they're travelling, of course. We both doubtless see good and bad examples of parenting. The problem with this thread is that quite a few posters see this issue as black or white. It obviously isn't, to which I hope you'll concur.

I will say that being an uncle is a hell of a lot different than being a full-time parent, and again, I hope we can agree on that.

Why this thread annoys me at times is that I have never (as far as I can recall) come across poor parenting on a plane, but I've come across constant poor behaviour from some of my fellow Premium travellers (and of course, it was not reasonable of me to even imply that you're one of those) - however, you will have seen why some of the earlier posts on this thread have "got my goat" somewhat!

Safe travels and apologies again for any unfairness.

Met vriendelijk groetjes,

Simon

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Just saw you PS' - I agree totally, apart from the point that if my child misbehaved (and he can be a master at that - just not when we're travelling as he knows he won't come next time) I fully expect and would deserve a complaint to be made.

I remember once in the SAS Scandinavia Lounge when Dan was about 4, he "over-enthusiastically" grabbed an orange from the fruit basket on the counter and spilled a man''s glass of water. I apologised profusely, but the guy said "Don't worry, I've got six so I know what it's like to travel with them." I think he and I both empathised at that point!

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Thanks Simon, greatly appreciate your posts. BTW, in CPH for the next few days, should I be on the look out for a flying orange on Thursday in the SAS lounge? :-)

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DY,

If you do, it'll happen upstairs, on one of island "bar type" seating areas in front of the bar, to the left of the Sleep Cabins!

Enjoy CPH - haven't been back there for a while as although I'm SK Gold, I now favour LX and LH, partly because the connections are better than SK's nowadays out of BHX, but also because I became very disappointed with SK's offer (too many years of commuting BHX-CPH-HEL which, thankfully, is no longer necessary!).

Have fun and thanks for accepting the apologies. Have a good trip.

Regards, Simon

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Breaking news!! MAS to ban babies from flying First class!! Finally!!
Taken from today's Travelmole...

Malaysia Airlines will ban babies travelling in First Class on the airline's new Airbus A380 and Boeing 747-400 fleet.

MAS said the baby ban was prompted by numerous complaints about crying infants from First Class passengers, the publication Australia Business Traveller reports. ??

Those wishing to travel with babies will have to book bassinets in business or economy sections instead. ??

The airline’s 747-400s fly between Kuala Lumpur and Sydney, as well as KL-London and KL-Amsterdam, with the Airbus A380s due to take over those routes in 2012.

How long will it take for other airlines to follow? 'Ban Babies from Business Class' too!!

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Come on!

This same discussion was on in BT 30 years ago. I thought the dinosaurs were extinct by now.

Apart from babies (what age limits?), who else do you want to ban?

Overweight, bad BO or breath, ......

I do have a few trips intercontinental per year, until now have not experienced this as a problem.

We need children and their parents sometimes need to travel, and they pay for it

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Travelcrusier...you are behind the times with the MAS news LuganPirate higlighted this 3 days ago on the 27th June.

I also think you views are behind the times and I would wager MAS will come to regret their decision and reverse it very soon.

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Travelcruiser

In the years I have posted on this site, I have read some c*ap. But never such offensive, self-serving, PRENTENTIOUS BS as you have posted. I agree wholehartedly with the others above. Get a life, for Christ's sake.

And if I didn't respect Tom Otley and the others on this Forum, I'd tell you exactly how I feel about your offensiveness.

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The following is an official statement in MAS' website:

Statement by Malaysia Airlines' Director of Operations
Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:00 PM GMT +8.

INFANT TRAVEL ON MALAYSIA AIRLINES

In view of the recent media attention on the above subject, Malaysia Airlines wishes to clarify as follows:

Currently Malaysia Airlines operates an aircraft fleet comprising B737s, Airbus A330s, B777s and B747s.

Except for B747s, the remaining aircraft are currently configured for Business and Economy class travel. All these aircraft are equipped with bassinet facilities to cater for infant travel.

Likewise, bassinet facilities were originally available in the First, Business and Economy class zones of the 747's.

In 2003, Malaysia Airlines embarked on a revamp of First and Business class cabin of the B747s. The First class seat configuration was reduced from 18 to 12 for passengers to enjoy increased cabin space and extended legroom.

Each new seat came with an electrically operated ottoman that doubles as a visitor seat and could convert to a lie-flat bed with the main seat. As a result of this seat revamp and the introduction of the ottoman, there was no facility for positioning bassinets in the First Class of the B747s.

The reconfigured B747s were mounted into our flight network since November 2004.

Since then Malaysia Airlines has been accepting infants for travel in Economy and Business class of the flights operated by 747 aircraft.

The B747 aircraft is currently used for flights on certain routes like Sydney-Kuala Lumpur, Kuala Lumpur-London, Kuala Lumpur-Amsterdam and Kuala Lumpur-Buenos Aires.

Capt Mohamed Azharuddin Osman
Director of Operations
Malaysia Airlines
29 June 2011

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npchuaMY....Interesting post.

Is this an atempt by MAS to pour "baby" oil on troubled waters?

Still think it is a huge blunder on their part.

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This is such a hot topic and so divided just like the debates on smoking/no smoking in past.

As we are in the free world, customers can CHOOSE to welcome or distance themself from the new Malaysian Airlines policy on baby travellers.

There is no such a thing as right or wrong but different opinions exsist.

Buyers decide!

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Well, I don't know about you, but I would have more complains about ADULTS being rude, stupid, slow, having to much baggage, talking too loud, arguing with the cabin crew, drunk, stinky, dirty, too talkative, sick and late than I would have about children. I know where you're coming from, but I strongly believe adults are the problem...

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Boris...

I agree with you. No one can deny a child's right to travel in F or C class, as long as he/she is a paying passenger.

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I believe that any carrier has the right to decide who they sell to. If an airline decides to banish the under 12 from a certain cabin, it is their right to do so.

In the same way that an airline recently decided to offload a black person for wearing his trousers half way down his legs but permitted a white man dressed as a women to board. (and people wonder why lawyers are so wealthy in the States!!)

Personally, I would prefer a snooze zone, where the seats are flat, service limited and passengers and crew in such zones were banned from talking!

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Bravo Martyn for giving a netural view as I have seen such a lot of emotional inputs in the last year.

I believe SAS had a Snooze zone for a couple of years for flights betwen Europe and Asia.

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Boris - you are absolutely correct. Well said.

Martyn - it may be an airline's right to choose, bit equally it's out choice not to use them.

Also, my reading of the MAS decision is that it's got nothing to do with infant behaviour/banning per se (as others have suggested) but everything to do with maximising the seat layout, ergo the revenue stream.

Cheers, Simon

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Simon, spot on, basic chemistry or was it physics,

for every action there is a reaction

airline refuses to sell ticket to baby, baby and parent refuse to fly airline. Plenty of choice

End result, so bloody what!!!

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Martyn,

"So a bloody lot" if they happen to fly on the route you want, at a time convenient to you and at a reasonable fare.

You seem to be very conflict-orientated lately on here, Martyn. Not like you at all.

Simon

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Hi Simon

Me, conflict, wrong person............calm as life itself. Just had a lovely meal at a fabulous restaurent in the West End, HUSH and walked 15 miles to get partially home. Feel on top on my game.

My previous point was being made to really question the effect of Malaysian Airlines. I dont think that their new baby ban procedure is worth worrying about, just choose another airline. I dont think any of the majors would follow suit.

"so bloody what" perhaps a little strong, but meaning, bearing in mind the airline in question, not really earth shattering news.

Must do some yoga before I go to bed.

Nite nite all!

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Night, Night, Martyn.

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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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