The letters page of our Asia-Pacific version has been dominated by a discussion of the merits - or otherwise - of the new Cathay Pacific business class. What follows is a selection of those letters.

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SEAT OR CELL?

It would seem that Cathay Pacific has made a very expensive mistake with its new Business Class cabin, which if not corrected, I am sure will have many frequent business travellers voting with their feet for other carriers that offer a comfortable sleeper seat in a spacious cabin environment.

The problems are not only with the seat but with the new cabin environment and layout. As others have remarked, the seat is much too narrow, claustrophobic and isolated with no proper armrests or space that one is forced to lean on the high side dividing wall to get marginally comfortable.

The seatback is flat with no neck support. The seat cushion is too soft and dips uncomfortably downwards if the seat is reclined even marginally. There is no space for storage even of a newspaper or book, and the space is too narrow to properly open a broadsheet newspaper in any case. The tiny area intended for placing drinks and snacks is so small and narrow that they are in constant danger of being knocked off.

This seat position also forces one to look directly at three or four large and very bright TV screens of seats across the aisle, unless they are moved away from their storage position. And most disconcerting is that while in its storage position, your own screen constantly flickers away in your peripheral vision.

Perhaps, the worst aspect if travelling with others is that it is impossible when seated to communicate with colleagues or family, and one has a very unpleasant feeling of being entombed in this narrow high-walled prison.

It is interesting that the cabin staff are told to advise passengers that the seat design was selected by the passengers. Certainly not by this one or any among my many Hongkong business friends and acquaintances, who like myself have been flying regularly with Cathay for many years. It appears that the new seat and Business Class cabin are universally disliked to the extent that if introduced across the fleet, many including myself will choose to fly long haul with other carriers.

Recently, I spent 18 hours in Cathay’s existing “ski slope” seat on a non-stop flight from Canada. This seat is not perfect and showing its age, but it is comfortable and wide and the cabin environment is pleasant. Importantly, it allows one to communicate and have some sense of space.

I am a very loyal Cathay Pacific flyer for 35 years and have, whenever possible, travelled with and recommended the airline.

For the same fare, I would have rather reluctantly changed carriers and taken British Airways via London whose new Business Class offers a far better product, with a very roomy feel and a pleasant cabin environment with a good lie-flat bed and a feeling of space that also gives privacy via a screen for those who prefer to travel in isolation. Overall, it is very comfortable in every way (as also is the new Singapore Airlines Business Class) that the Cathay seat and environment are not.

It astonishes me that Cathay Pacific, a first-class and well-run airline with ample resources, could have made such a very fundamental and costly mistake. This new seat and cabin environment are frankly unpleasant and should be ditched ASAP before too much further damage is caused to the airline’s business, reputation and passenger comfort and loyalty by further rolling it out across the fleet.

Christopher Woodward, Hongkong

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Cathay Pacific replies: We refer to your letter from Mr Christopher Woodward regarding our new Business Class seats.

Let us say that we do appreciate customer feedback, and while we recognise that Mr Woodward has serious criticisms of the product, our research shows that this is not the case with the great majority of our customers. We do, of course, accept that the new Business Class seats have not been universally welcomed. Introducing a new product so markedly different in design from the old was bound to be somewhat controversial.

The new configuration had to involve compromises – all such designs do – but the core of our thinking was to produce an arrangement that met the requirements of our customers who we surveyed intensely before making final decisions on our new product. The two overwhelming requirements for Business Class were for a flat bed and privacy. Like other premium airlines, we decided that the herringbone layout was the best way to meet those demands.

We track the satisfaction of our passengers with a random selection on every flight. The sample size is now over 8,800 people. Results so far show clearly that there is a substantial rise in all satisfaction measures except in the overall spaciousness of the cabin. In particular, satisfaction with the sleeping position has increased from 62 percent for the old layout to 89 percent with the new product. There have also been significant improvements in satisfaction with the sitting position and the privacy provided by the new seats – now at 92 percent and 91 percent respectively.

We regret that Mr Woodward is not among those who have greeted our new seats with enthusiasm, and we certainly respect his views, but we hope that over time he may be able to find greater comfort with the new configuration and continue to enjoy the premium service we offer to our valued customers.

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I refer to the letter titled “Seat or Cell?” from Mr Woodward in the October issue of Business Traveller. I have also heard the new Cathay Pacific seat being referred to as a “cattle stall”.

I, a long-time Cathay Pacific Marco Polo Diamond member, am in total agreement with every aspect of Mr Woodward’s comments regarding the new Business Class product.

I had the unfortunate experience of flying from London recently whereby a young boy of three or four years of age was screaming his heart out during taxiing and take-off because he could not see his mother due to the level of “privacy” these new seats give. No thought whatsoever has been given to passengers who are not travelling alone or with young children.

As for the airline’s response, I find it very difficult to believe their customer satisfaction data on the new Business Class seats. Every friend, acquaintance and business traveller that I have spoken to universally dislikes the new seats and I mean everybody, and this includes Cathay staff.

There is no such thing as a window seat any more. I would like to meet someone from Cathay who can honestly say, with this seating arrangement, that they can see out of the aircraft window without dislocating their necks.

If Cathay’s main objective (as they state in their defence) was to implement a seat which was a flat bed and had a high level of privacy, then they have gone over-the-top in achieving their objectives and in addition, done it with the poor design, which can be seen in the width of the seat, inter-seat communication, seat material quality and finish, and loss of the window experience.

I have flown for many years with Cathay, but I now use other long-haul carriers rather than sit in their new Business Class, and I am sure many others are, if not planning to do the same. How sad that a good airline followed poor design advice and now expects their loyal customers to accept it with nary a complaint. Well, this customer is doing something about it.

JA Fraser, Hongkong

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Being a long-term subscriber to Business Traveller and never previously voicing an opinion in Letters, I read with interest in October 2008 – Letters page, “Seat or Cell?” by Christopher Woodward.

Unfortunately, I totally agree with his comments following my business flight from Melbourne to Hongkong on August 20.

Prior to flying, I perused the Cathay website on its new Business Class and was looking forward to the experience.

However, upon boarding, I was disappointed to find a bland cabin environment, claustrophobic seats, limited storage, and the magazine pocket so small that I could only grip and pull out magazines with two fingers. Like Mr Woodward having also to place my elbows on the high side walls, as the armrests are too narrow. Communicating with my husband in the next seat was near impossible unless voices were raised.

The drinks and snack area is way too small and narrow. When the seat is reclined, I found it to be stuffy, closed and airless. So stuffy in fact that I slept with my seat partially reclined. (Unbeknownst to me, two business acquaintances were seated across the aisle and their first comments were on the too narrow, restricting seats.)

My husband commented to cabin staff his disappointment with the narrow seats and was informed it was (designed) from customer feedback. I find this hard to believe as the only positive would seem to be an increase in seat numbers!

(For) future flights to Hongkong and/or onto London, I would look to booking with another carrier in preference to Cathay.

From a positive perspective, the cabin crew were as always charming, and the selection and presentation of food excellent.

My return flight on September 14 was in an older aircraft but with comfortable reclining leather seats, plenty of storage, and being able to communicate with my husband without raised voices over a partitioned wall as in the new Business Class.

Pam Balcam, Australia

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I am sure I am only one of a large number who agree entirely with the letter from Christopher Woodward in your October issue.

How disappointing it was to read Cathay’s response. The methodology of customer response is flawed at best and misleading at worst. When customers continue to vote with their feet as a number of us (Diamond members!) are doing, then perhaps finally something might be done.

Geoff Spender

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I guess that I am in a significant minority. I actually like the new Cathay Business Class, despite being fairly broadly shaped... I sympathise with passengers travelling with children - and I guess that it isn't much fun if you are travelling as a couple. I'm normally travelling alone between London and HK and simply want to sleep. While the seat is narrow, I always find that I sleep well due to the greater privacy, and this is my priority. If the other posters on this site are representative of Cathay's passengers, they have a pretty significant problem though..

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I have read all of the recent posts and, having flown the new configuration earlier this year, understand the comments. I was one of the UK based "guinea pigs" 4 years ago and remember the comments made. Almost without exception, my group agreed that the sleeping position is much better, but that it was difficult to travel with a partner / family, or to look out of a window. However, all of the "guinea pigs" agreed that the most important aspect of a sleeper seat is the sleeping position, and for that it is excellent. Also, those who had experienced the "new" Virgin Atlantic herringbone configuration, including myself, noted the remarkable similarities. Conclusion: for sleeping it is excellent, and better than the flimsy BA beds, but for daytime flights, or travel with a partner, it is not the best.

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Well, I am clearly in a satisfied minority. I've enjoyed my experience flying with both Virgin Atlantic and Cathay Pacific for the very reasons that seem to have attracted the negative criticisms of others.

For a Business traveller, the "cell" like environment is perfect! I was able to put in a full days work between Melbourne and Hong Kong, happily cocooned in my private space AND with the added pleasure of a couple of glasses of champagne and the superb attention of the Cathay flight attendants. The fact that my colleagues couldn't converse with me across the aisle was - in my opinion - a perfect scenario for the business traveller.

On the return flight I slept like a baby (again after the ministrations of the aforementioned Cathay staff) without a stranger 20 cm away from me farting away happily and malodourously (which was my experience on a recent LAX-MEL flight with QF).

Travellers, it's called Business Class for a reason. My opinion, should you choose to consider it, is that Cathay Pacific has made the right call for business travellers like me for whom the view out of a window and chatting during the flight is secondary and, to be frank, irrelevant to the "business" in Business Class. And don't get me going on the appropriateness of unsocialised kids travelling Business Class.

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Bradcarle....Delighted you like the CX business class….each to their own. I like others do not and for many of the reason mentioned. Particularly around not being able to talk to my wife or more importantly see my kids at critical moments of the flight (i.e) take off and landing. Even in First on BA I am able to do this.

But the view that it is called "business class for reason" is nonsense. It is a premium cabin and as any airline exec will tell you, it is well healed leisure travellers that are occupying a great many of the seats today, not being able to talk to your wife for 1 2hours may be attractive to some but the reality is that when travelling with some one it is generally nice to be able to talk to them, even see them occasionally.. There have also been a number of forums on kids in First and Business but yet again we have the usual twaddle about anti social kids in premium cabins. By far, adults are the worst behaved in any cabin, as you yourself highlighted the hygienically challenged are usually adults and that before we discuss the bores, the drunk and the downright unpleasant and overly demanding “businessmen” who think they own the cabin when in reality they have not even paid for the seat.

Your fellow passengers, whatever their age, sexual orientation, gender or religions are that, your fellow passengers, no matter the cabin they are occupying. It is, after all……..public transport……. and if you really need to be separated from your travellers then please….. travel by private jet and let the rest of us get on with our lives.

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...but Binman (and I do love the nom de plume you've selected) you had surely researched the configuration of the Cathay 'premium cabin' before you booked your family sojourn? It's quite clearly (and delightfully) anti-social.

I did say "unsocialised" kids - I'm sure yours are as perfect as most parents believe their own children to be.

Oh, and yes, a private jet would be delightful. To misquote an old soap advertisement "The Bahamas sound lovely Binman"

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I guess the nom de plume Binman is because he has "bin" here; "bin" there, "bin" everywhere. Not sure if Binman has the T-shirt

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Since no-one else has said it yet, 'welcome on board' BradCarle: it's always nice to see new posters and read fresh opinion.

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Echoing CC, welcome BradCarle.

I also tend to agree with you that the CX Business Class product is overly criticised and its is one of my favourites now

My big plus point is that on the upper deck 747 or window 777, 330 when the seat is turned into a bed it is one of the longest in the market. As someone who is 2 metres tall there are very few business class seats that allow me to lie fully stretched out (excluding the good old BA 64 A and K - which always go early) and therefore I'm always able to get a good sleep on an overnight flight

I agree that with seatplans.com, business traveller etc there are enough resources now that passengers can investigate the seat options prior to travel and if its companionship / child friendly etc thats required then book on the appropriate airline.

On that point as per the Business Traveller Asia airlines update, CX have fitted this product now on all long haul routes so its consistent.

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What a pity the new seat is said to be "claustrophobic"! I was seriously considering trying it out BOM-HKG-DPS. Wish they would re-introduce their First Class on these routes....

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Rather ironic really when comparing to the new Cathay First offering which i rate as being one of the best. Superb seats, space and nice individual touches.

I would lay "pound to a penny" that the Virgin Upper relaunch will see a change from teh current cubicals to something more open.

Funny how products seem to go full circle.

have a great and smiling day everyone - life is wonderfull

Martyn

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Martyn, what makes you think that the new Virgin Upper Class product will be more 'open'?

I'd assumed (perhaps unwisely!) that the 'new' product would be analagous to the Air New Zealand upgrade of the herringbone seat - ie longer, softer etc., but otherwise the same basic concept.

Anecdotally, there do seem to be a lot of passengers who very much like the privacy of the VS/NZ/CX etc set-up, and of course the Cathay seat additionally suits 'slumpers' without the need for them to get up and flip the seat over to convert it into a bed. Inherently, it therefore also offers more seat recline.

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Thanks for the welcome fellow travellers! I'm not a prodigious poster but an avid reader of opinions on this excellent site. I look forward to contributing.

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Christopher Woodward claims to have spent 18 hrs flying from Canada to Hong Kong ?? may I ask can planes fly that long without stopping

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I also have to add that I always fly BA where possible between HKG and LHR as their biz class is just the best - no question, however I keep getting upgraded to F on CX and that is pure heaven when it comes to flying. Since BA overpaid crew decided to spit the dummy out of the pram I have slipped back to CX to be safe, VIA AMS which saves me about 300 pounds in rip off taxes for flying biz class.

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It certainly is possible for certain aircraft to fly for that duration, proliteboss.

The block time for Cathay's non-stop Toronto to Hong Kong flight is 15h 30m, but headwinds can lengthen this.

It's probably also fair for Christopher Woodward to report 18h in terms of the amount of time spent in his seat, particularly if there were any ground delays at either end, as well as a slightly extended flight time.

The aircraft used, for reference, is the Boeing 777-300ER and the route is one of few regularly referred to as 'ultra longhaul'.

They are the same aircraft that V Australia have mooted using on a non-stop Perth to London service, which could block at about 16h in normal operations.

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Hi all,

I looked at CX as an option to Shanghai recently. The 'cell' immediately put me off. Their website is very good and clearly shows the problems with the product that people have referred to......

Regards,

Simon

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CC

I feel that the cell concept with the Virgin slant and flip over is stale. It seems an unatural way to travel, esepcially as to face the window you have to twist your neck - and i know its only on landing and take off, but to me it seems so unatural.

I believe that VS were the first to fit business class in this slanted and cell format so it would follow that they would perhaps be the first to depart from this concept. Cubicles seem to have spread through to First Class and whilst the thought if having your own "room" for 12 to 15 hours the reality is that airlines need to balance seat numbers with pax comforts according to class.

Lets se which way VS goes, but it wouldnt suprise me if dapper Dickie, came out with a totally fresh concept as only he can and let the others follow, as they undoubtadly will.

I wait to hear.............!

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All this talk about the new CX Biz-class seat being like a "cell" has made me wonder about our own Jet Airways, which is similarly configured. Anybody here has flown their long-haul Business Class? Is it better/worse than Cathay?

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To answer the query from 'proliteboss'. The 18 hour flight was taken in early 2008 when the CX flight ex YTO then stopped at ANC to refuel. The total flying time was +16.30 and the layover in ANC almost 2 hours. The policy of the US for this transit seemed to change frequently with passengers some times forced to disembark and at other times forced to stay on board. On this flight we were not allowed off the plane hence 18 hours plus in the seat. With the longer range 777s being used the flight is now non stop and 15.30 hours My views on the CX business class seat have not changed much after many flights and the only reason that I continue to fly with Cathay much of the time is that they continue to do everything else better than any other airline that I have used. This seat and the 'sliding' economy seat have definitely lost the airline business ex HK with previously loyal customers switching to other OneWorld carriers particularly QF and BA to Australia and London who both offer a more conventional but excellent business class flat bed (and now premium economy) product. Interestingly 90% of the negative views expressed re CX in the Skytrax and other forums are related to the Cathay seats and is probably the only reason why Cathay is not a present being rated as number 1 or 2 in the airline satisfaction polls.... but perhaps the salvation of a new CX long haul business class (and premium economy ?) seat is not too far away !

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Totally agree BA biz class bed is way ahead of CX, so much more room and space and comfort.

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I agree with most of the negative stuff written about this configuration.

My wife and I flew Cathay CX134 Melbourne to HK. After nearly 6 years of marriage and a few kids...it may seem strange but we still quite like each other. So we decided to take a trip sans enfants business class during the day and we were all ready to spend 8.5 hours of mutual talking, drinking and respectable canoodling on a sort of second honeymoon. We are the type that press the movie button at the same time so we can watch in synchronisation and look at each other in the funny parts...you know ...1,2,3 PRESS! They say getting there is part of the fun! We were shocked and speechless to be seated in a sardine coffin configuration where you cant see, hear or touch each other when sitting up or lying down. I'm talking solitary confinement – cell block 9!!! (would be perfect to have the theme song to prisoner in the background while reading this) I can just see the top of her head when we are both sitting up and trying to make contact. Sometimes during the flight she stretches to put her hand over the great dividing wall into my cell so we can touch. A small reminder that we are not alone. This seating configuration is reminiscent of that scene on Aliens 2 when they all have to go into stasis on the way to Mars, after all its probably best when intergalactic travelling in a coma for 18 months that you have your own space. So you kind of understand where James Cameron was going here. If your flying with 2 or more people this is a completely unacceptable scenario - unless of course you are: a group of blind monks with a social disorder who have been sworn to a lifetime of silence likely to travel with a periscope and walkie talky) going through a bitter divorce and have restraining order transferring prisoners vampires sardines suffering from multiple personality disorder dead

Imagine the Cathay product team and designers agreeing on this configuration. Picture them all sitting around and discussing this.

“guys we are about to spend 8 billion dollars on this new business seat and we only get one go at it so lets get this right !

Lots of seats – pack em’ in sardine configuration - TICK No visibility of windows TICK Claustrophobic coffin feel over many hours of long haul flying - TICK

This meetings going well. Hey wait a minute do we ever get more than 1 person travelling together? Do you think our customers may want to communicate visually or via the spoken word. What are those people called that travel together......married people, business people, families. No lets get them to pay heaps of money and not let them communicate. Lets use the prison system of solitary confinement as the basis and inspiration for our new concept. Yes that’s a great idea! Lets sign off on this design and roll this out throughout our network ASAP!”

All our lives my wife and I have dedicated ourselves to enjoying the getting there: we drink, we laugh, we love we are hedonists. Hedonists generally travel in groups.

By the way we moved ourselves to some spare seats in economy and enjoyed the rest of the flight together.

LH - Australia

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Here's our news piece on the launch of Cathay's new business class seat, which we'll be updating with further details and images as they become available.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/asia-pacific/news/no-premium-economy-for-cathay-a-yet

And for those who wish to view it on our sister Asia-Pacific site:

http://asia.businesstraveller.com/asia-pacific/news/no-premium-economy-for-cathay-a-yet

We've created a new topic thread for discussion of this latest seat at:

http://www.businesstraveller.com/discussion/topic/Cathay-Pacific-unveils-new-business-class-seat

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