I have booked BA First for Cape Town in January next year. The BA website makes reference to the new first class being introduced soon. Does anyone know what the new product will be like and what the implementation timescales are??

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Nothing *formally* announced by BA, though attendees at the recent Investor Day were mistakenly shown a slide featuring an artist's impression of the new cabin, but it was removed by BA on the publicly available slide pack, and newswires were asked not to distribute the pic.

Nothing revolutionary; same footprint, with more useable personal space, some hi-tech gubbins and larger screens for AVOD and a few nice touches which will make the cabin "special" once again.

The image persist around various websites, but cannot be relied upon as they are not necessarily the final design.

In today's BAEC newsletter, some improvements to the "soft" product were announced:

------- Revealed: the changes unfolding in First

Beautifully crafted by Anya Hindmarch and adorned with our original coat of arms, our new washbag is filled with a range of well-being goodies from D R Harris - a quintessential British chemist and perfumer, who has supplied Royal Households for over one hundred and fifty years. A travel accessory fit for a king or queen.

In April, we began introducing enhancements to First that will add to your comfort. Wonderfully soft cotton pyjamas and slippers are provided for your relaxation. Adding to the luxurious comfort is a new 400 thread count Egyptian cotton duvet and pillow with silver lustre detailing, to help make drifting off to sleep more blissful than ever.

Later this year, we will begin to introduce a completely redesigned cabin and service. We want new First to be perfect, at every stage of your journey. So everything has been crafted and designed to create the ultimate bespoke experience. -------

Though the above is old news to most.

There is a silly ruby glass for our water which was on board my flight back from MIami last month, and new crockery, but these are all soft tweaks rather than than the big cabin redesign.

Seems likely new First will be trialled aboard a test aircraft and then the new 777ERs which start delivery from Q4 2009.

You certainly won't get new First on a 747 before Easter 2010, if ever as the 747 fleet edges towards retirement, and given BA's approximately 100 longhaul aircraft and a roll out of one or two airframes per month in the early stages of a refit, it is extremely unlikely you would get the new cabin on your flight to South Africa.

You can read more about the First experience here:

www.britishairways.com/travel/first/public/en_gb

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I've been wondering much the same thing myself. I have a flight to YVR in first booked for August but I do not expect much to have changed by then. Apparently we will get a new goody bag; big deal.

In truth, BA's first class product is well past its sell-by date, being not noticeably better than many other airline's current business class products. The seats are too narrow, they have obsolete power connections; I could go on but you get the picture.

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Agree that the cabin is tired and archaic, but when you get a good crew, especially on a far east route, you do feel like the most important person in the plane. this is something that no other airline gets close to matching.

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I've also read that they'll be improving the food in First as well, prior to the introduction of a new cabin/seat.

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Well the food couldn't be any worse...some days it is just unpalatable, and on a recent NY flight I brought a sandwich from Pret-a-Manger, which was tastier and fresher than anything offered on board. I just don't understand the powers that be at BA thinking they can cut here and there, and hope passengers won't notice. We do, and I've been taking my full revenue premium business elsewhere (to Qantas, Cathay, Etihad, Singapore to name a few) as the entire experience (not just catering) is premium. How can Etihad manage a first class escort at LHR (or Lufthansa, for that matter) and BA can't - in their own terminal?? Two of my recent flights have been coach transfers - nothing for First pax - you are herded on with everyone else. Fast track security is not policed, and is slow when it works. BA are totally being screwed if they are paying for that poor service. And baggage is no longer handled differently - in fact, don't have a premium tag put on it - the handlers ensure it comes out last if it does. Yet somehow the crew bags always manage to come off first. Hmmmmm. so we know who matters and who does not, and it sure isn't First Class passengers. Hence my migration to other airlines. Cheers to Luftie, Swiss, Cathay and Etihad - you're doing it right. BA - get a clue - but start with an easy win like food - it isn't that great a challenge.

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HI guys,

Ok, I thinks that its time that the travel agents out here, (myself..!), should try and earn some pennies. In this time of uncertainty everybody is doing their best to save some valuable cash, and hopefuly I can help do just that.

For anybody that travels Premium Economy, Business Class and First Class frequently, or even on the odd occasion ,why not get in touch and see if I can save you money.

why not at least give me a go, get in touch and I will show you how I can help!

Your reservations are 100% completey governed by all major bonds, and protection.

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Hmmmm, I thought this was a forum to exchange ideas, concerns and issues - not a free sales opportunity. Were it to be a sale opportunity, you'd all be signed up for lots of new insurance policies, no doubt! Thanks, Travel_Exec, but perhaps you can advise what advice you'll give passengers as to what they can expect when flying BA First, and any pitfalls they may encounter? Now that would be added value.

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Ok, well first of all apologies as my last post was not actually intended for this message board (it was a late night!). This was meant for a new forum altogether... And im sorry that it appears a little like a free sales issue... even though it is!!! I have worked extremely hard for my agent for many years, and I have never felt the economy hit my pocket as hard as it has now (im sure its not just me!). I am genuine, there are no fees etc and bottom line is I know I could save you guys money, at the same time increase my sales and keeping my boss happy!! Once again, apologies for the interuption. Also, I do have the experience to help answer your questions too so let me know.

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I must admit I'm rather surprised that people are still flying F Class (on BA of all airlines, on Trans-Atlantic routes of all routes!). I thought there was a recession on! Obviously, some people aren't affected by it.Or, maybe they don't mind being ripped off (is it a 'status thing' to have the Jones family next door know that you can afford to fly BA F class?) just to keep up appearances?Anyway, far be it for me to tell you how to spend your money.Just remember, when you buy a F class ticket, it doesn't prove that you have money, it proved that you HAD money...money that has now gone to BA who are smiling all the way to the bank while YOUR bank account shows a deficit.

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Would you like some nice beer-battered cod, lightly doused in vinegar, to go with that chip that is so patently obviously growing out of your shoulder? ;)

This argument that we should not consume in a recession is exactly the sort of thing which turns a recession into a depression.

We need to keep buying to sustain jobs (and yes, taxes, which get paid on salaries, APD fees, company profits) which in the end will maintain economic activity in the future.

As you will no doubt be aware, BA currently has an offer running until 31 July whereby they will book you into First or Club Europe if you book a fully flexible fare Club World or EuroTraveller ticket:

www.britishairways.com/travel/ecnmay09mainoffer/execclub/_gf/en_gb

(requires login)

So it may well not cost anything for a reader of Business Traveller who is out on the road drumming up sales overseas to find themselves in an F cabin.

Many corporate deals routinely offer F for less than most of us would privately pay for J. Right now, they are giving F away at bargain basement prices.

Though I understand it is profligate in a way only Jacqui Smith's husband can truly appreciate to book non-discounted F on business right now, it may well not cost the sorts of sums you might imagine.

If there are people who remain able to pay full whack privately or otherwise (and not everyone loses out during a recession!), I don't think they should feel guilty about that.

In addition, with almost empty cabins, now is a great time to get a BA Miles redemption in F. And all you pay then is the taxes and fees - making F travel about the same cost as a ticket in economy, if you have enough miles.

Travelling in F is a lot less about status than you might imagine; most people who are there couldn't give a monkey's what others think and do so for their own personal comfort.

Rightly, their assessment of wealth is not how much money you have in the bank, or indeed have given away to BA to travel F, but much more about what really matters in life, such as happiness, friends and family.

By investing in flying F, jobs are created, BA profits and taxes are paid to the UK Exchequer, and someone enjoys a great relaxing flight better able to do business at their destination or enjoy a well earned vacation/trip of a lifetime.

Once you see the issue in the round, and understand that F doesn't have to cost a huge amount, I really can't see why flying F is morally objectionable.

Ketchup or mayonnaise?

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Airpocket & VintageKrug - you deserve each other.

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Here here, Vintage...deliciously put!

Keep 'em coming.

Silly name for silly comments...

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Getting touchy are we? I never said flying F was "morally objectionable".Indeed, if you get off your soap box and read my contribution you'll see that I'm not even attempting to dictate what you do with your money (what's left of it). And,no,I don't have a "chip on my shoulder" (is that the only phrase you could come up with, regardless of the garnish?).I'm pretty well-off, ex-public school, and pretty familiar with the front of the aircraft.I just chose not to act in a nouveau riche, ostentatious manner.Enjoy your over-priced F class goodies and spare a thought for the rest of us, in J and Y class, counting our dosh and grinning from ear to ear.

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Why not just pay half the price of an F class ticket, and still get flexability.....

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Obviously not a very good Public School, or you would know how to insert paragraphs and spaces after full stops. ;)

Another example of a false economy!

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Did we just hit an Airpocket? .... Isn't it amazing the response a simple request regarding Ba's new first product can create. It's about experiencing something different, living a little, getting excited about a wonderful holiday......not counting how much of your parents money you have left in your bank account, after you stepped off your Easyjet flight, albeit at thefront of the plane.

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I always fly First when it's available, and I always look for the best deals. It's nothing to do with impressing the neighbours or anyone else for that matter.

I want the extra comfort, larger seat, car to the plane, a lounge where I can have a proper dinner before boarding (eg. Swiss and Lufthansa) and be able to use the VIP immigration desks on arrival.

Further, when I depart from foreign shores, I am escorted through security and immigration, no queues, no stop start dragging a bag. Not to mention increased baggage allowance, real phone numbers answered by real people etc.

It's not about saving a few thousand, its about comfort and quality, and I'm happy to pay for this. Finally, when I go for a walk around the cabin to stretch my legs, I rarely see smiling faces, just cramped one's!!! It's worth every penny and I'm certainly smiling when I arrive!!!

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Hi Airpocket, I must confess that I find the whole tone of your argument to be very alien to my point of view. I bet you drive a more expensive car than some people. Why ? because you want to and you can afford it. End of story. That is your choice. I also enjoy flying First class sometimes (though mainly fly business for business) simply because it is the most comfortable way to fly. I agree other airlines are better than BA but they are quite good. By the way, do you have communist leanings? As your views would no doubt be well appreciate in the old Soviet Union !! (sorry - only joking )

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Dunno about Airpocket but I will happily put my hand up for communstic tendencies if that will get rid of the self-serving b*stards who rule in both the City and at Westminster.

And to confound your other prejudice; I have just ordered a Hyundai i10 (with scrappage allowance) which I bet is a fair bit cheaper than anything you drive. Admittedly, I had intended to drive something else in my fleet to LHR when checking in for for my next BA first class flight in August, but now you mention it.......

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Well the current UK political situation is a whole different topic.... but I think you miss my point. Even your Hyundai is not the cheapest car on the market so you are making a free choice to spend more on getting from A to B than would be the absolute minimum. I can't be bothered to get too excited about this ALL I'm saying is I believe in free choice in all aspects of life from cars to homes to food .......... and obviously your choice is limited by how much you or your company is willing to pay. That's fine by me.

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Nope, I'm not a Communist or a Socialist. I'm a Left Wing Capitalist (excuse the oxymoron) and I don't drive because public transport in London is adequate when I need to get from A to B. Anyway, yes, we're all free to make our own choices and spend our money the way we want but you must also be prepared to be ridiculed by the wider public who see you as ostentatious and/or noucea riche.

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You can use the Piccadilly line to LHR and try out new First in the fourth quarter of this year. Here is the pick BA released at its investor presentation, then pulled:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3392/3603072000_19ddac12d4_o.jpg

The above is a concept illustration, so unlikely to be an exact representation of what we will see, but gives you an idea of a modest progression rather than a huge redesign.

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So no one in the entire cabin has a window seat?? This is utter madness.

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yet more stunning silly comments....

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Someone is obviously going blind. Any suggestions as to what might be causing that particular affliction? ;)

A little less "playing with your keyboard" should help matters.

This link, which has has the aspect corrected to more properly represent the planned new First Cabin, clearly shows the innovative approach to windows:

www.leggatts.co.uk/images/bafirst.png

Seems a sort of square glazed section will give a clearer line to the cabin wall, and avoid the feeling of portholes, with electronic opacity as is already seen in the First loos instead of the usual pull down blinds.

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I have just seen the possible F class configuration on the foregiven internet site. Could anybody from our BA F class frequent travellers tell me--where is the big difference to the existing seatings?? It almost look s the same, perhaps more wider seats this time? Is not this configuration of a F cabin in this aircraft type obsolete? Just look what QF did-yes it is not the highly spoken EK , SQ or EY First Class Suites-with its sliding doors--who really needs such privacy anyway?? It is a very hard time for BA, so I really do not understand why to launch a first class cabin and a premium jet from LCY to NYC all in a matter of months apart!! I have travelled a couple of sectors in BA First Class, there is no discussion that a revamp is desperately needed(apart from QF showing where the way is going). I just hope the food quality, the seat width and most of all the service attitude of some first class cabin attendants may uprise from the old product( I know as well it is hard to smile for BA especially when your boss is slashing your income and making you wok for nothing). Let us keep the fingers cross that all these new launching will not be the first nails on BA's coffin and to become a memory like the concorde but a rising from the mediocrity (look how they reinvented business class when they introduce the full flat seatings back in the '90s.

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Account deleted

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Here is an artist's impression of the new cabin:

www.leggatts.co.uk/images/bafirst.png

There is a demo apparently in the crew report centre, but it is still shrouded in secrecy.

Suffice to say this is more of an evolution than revolution, though the square windows will make the cabin distinctive.

Quite a few technological innovations planned, it seems.

Chocs have been preserved, which is good news.

The forecast was for the new seats to be released in Q4 2009. Looks like BA will make this deadline, just, with both a 777 and a 747 having the new cabin installed for passenger use by the end of December.

I have seen a photograph of the seat and it looks great, and much "fresher" than the current First.

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I think a lot of people know, but have been sworn to secrecy.

I don’t know, but here’s my best guess.

November 16th unveiling

First FIRST aircraft in service by that date. Probably on a four-class B777-200, then a B747-400. Not route specific to begin with.

All refitted by 2011.

Evolution of current design (so same footprint on the aircraft, 14 seats etc...) and no sliding doors like Emirates, Jet and Etihad.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't square windows the reason the Comet kept falling out of the sky and there is no UK airline making giant?

I guess its a designer gone mad......

Oh well, since I left banking and got an honest PLC CEO job it will be a cold day in hell before I get to fly first again anyway.

No tapping the corners of the windows guys!

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Willie quoted by Business Traveller saying that the new F seats will be available "imminently".

I enjoyed the new cotton/cashmere "day wrap" for the first time yesterday, though I used it to keep my toes warm.

A nice new menu logo as well, demonstrating that the soft product updates are now nearly complete....roll on the new cabin!

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I have it on good authority that your Nov 16th date is not true...it will be later than that... New cabins are great, but it is ground that really lacks - indifferent check-in, terrible "fast track" at LHR T5, never-ending coaching gates with no priority for F, no priority baggage, boarding is only sometimes priority depending on loads, and they forever use Door 2 to arrive and don't hold other pax back, meaning F pax are well after about 100 other customers to disembark. Other carriers get this right, why can't BA? So rather than fix the ground, someone is coughing up money to bring on an evolutionary seat - we still will suffer poor catering quality, poor wine selection (now offering bottles I can buy in Waitrose for £14.99 - I kid you not), and once proud crew reduced to moaning in the galley. No wonder I'm less and less of a fan of BA...roll on LH, LX, EY and SQ!

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I think November 16th is the *unveiling* NOT the entry to passenger service. BT said nothing about entry to service date.

As previously discussed, it is likely to feature on a 777 first, then very shortly after a 747 for testing in these two aircraft, likely to be in passenger service late December, satisfying the Q4 deadline.

I enjoyed a very nice few glasses of Bollinger Grande Annee 2000 on Monday, which while not as good as the ’99. was still a pretty good tipple. And not inexpensive, either.

I will have a look at the wine list from the flight, but the range looked satisfactory, if perhaps not hitting the highs of previous years.

There are always going to be a few less expensive bottles in there. However, it is not the case that most bottles in F can be picked up for £14.99.

I like to ask the crew for a “flight” where the let me taste all the wines on offer; while it is tempting to go for the Grand Cru French wine, I have discovered some less expensive but nonetheless interesting wines which I have preferred to the “obvious” choice. The Pudding Wine is always consistently good.

There are still plenty of ground issues; bussing will be a problem until the third element of T5, T5C, opens in 2010, but that will add an additional 17 gates, significantly reducing the need to be bussed. I cannot recall the precise date, but it does look like things are on or ahead of schedule.

Priority Boarding is now pretty reliable in my recent experience, with dedicated channels at most T5 gates which are both used and enforced by the ground staff. It is less reliable at outstations.

There is no excuse for not holding back Club and WT+ pax when the jetty goes to door 2, there is no excuse for moaning in the galley, there is no excuse for a less than stellar check-in experience and there is no excuse for the lack of priority baggage….these are all training and procedural issues which need addressing.

It think there is little that can be done to stop moaning in the galley, that is an issue of professionalism.

Priority baggage is certainly receiving a greater deal of attention from Senior Management right now.

However, the hard product is an important investment which is much needed, and should instil a re-invigorated pride in BA staff.

To a certain extent BA has approached the three elements of service, soft hard and staffing issues, in that order. It is less expensive to improve the soft product (see the new mattresses, day wraps, menus, crockery and cutlery) and that was done first, the seat is second, and the staffing and procedural issues will come after that.

The Concorde Room in T5, and importantly the outstation FIRST lounges, remain among the most consistent in the marketplace.

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BA better get their skates on and get their new First Class product out soon. And it better be good or they'll be blown out of the water especially on routes to the Middle and Far East. I have stopped flying BA on those routes when you have outstanding First products such as those of Emirates, Etihad and Singapore. And some of those are half BA's price. I was part of the initial focus groups for BA's new First 2-3 years ago. It was clear back then that they were trying to get by on a shoestring and do it on the cheap. When they launched in 1997, they were leaders. Now I fear they won't even come close to a whole score of airlines who have far superior products. Shame really.

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Hi everyone !!

FCTraveller I fear you are right. As far as the preview which we have seen in this thread. I do not see any newbies in the new F class product--only some enhancements-that is all ! Honestly it is not in the league of EK, EY, SQ--not even CX or QF. I still hope that this new product will convince me otherwise.......or start looking for other F class products.

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I think Tom mentioned Monday 16 November as a potential "publicity day".

Any update on this?

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Business Traveller replies:

Hi VintageKrug - we've been invited to a drinks reception at the Dorchester this evening with Willie Walsh in attendance. There's no details on the invite as to the nature of the event, but given it is already public knowledge The Dorchester is supplying Afternoon Tea on the new First product, we've put 2 and 2 together, and will let you know how much that comes to tomorrow!

http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/ba-first-to-partner-with-the-dorchester

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Looking forward to the report!

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Do you really think that on the day cabin crew are voting to strike, WW will attend a party at the Dorchester to launch new First? Seems like something they'd rather wheel out to corporates and press in one of their more business-like environments than at a cocktail soiree in a 5-star hotel in London. Imagine what PR could be spun from that?

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I think you miss the point Stephen. First class and Dorchester go together. Why shouldn't WW be there? He's not going to sit at Waterside biting his nails waiting for the ballot vote, he would be doing the right thing in promoting his company's product

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Hi everyone !!

You are right Nigel--it is only a PR event in promoting its new product--or should I say in polishing its old product ! The new F class and the Dorchester have both something in common---They are both obsolete and definitely need a new image--not only a constant renovation !

I have got the feeling that BA is in a fast lane at the moment--with all these new revelations of merger and product unveiling... It seems that Waterside is struggling to hide the more serious issues in the background--and rather throw itself in a party and glossy picture than actually give the public the impressions that Waterside is in serious terrain at the moment.

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No, Nigel, I get the point. But with BA's amazing ability for bad PR (T5, Seating, Catering "enhancements" etc.), you can easily see what a meal the UK press could make of WW guzzling fizz at an F Product launch in a luxury London hotel whilst saying "times are tough" - just seems strange to me, an amazing ability to score an own goal. That said, we have no confirmation of a launch - just a "2+2" from Biz Traveller. Have found nothing else online on other travel sites saying this...

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Oh come on VK !!

Don't be so unobstrusive--you will be there this evening aren't you ? You are moslty in those big unveiling parties or openings of BA's premium products, aren't you ?

Bet you will tell us more and before BT will report it ?

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OH, a " 2+2" ? What is this a PR event or a rendezvous ?

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I hardly think the Dorchester is obsolete. Have you ever even stayed or dined there?

It is one of the world's leading hotels, with top notch service, and underwent a total refurbishment in 2002. I haven't been in since Mr Fasel took over, but Mr Cowdray ran an excellent ship whenever I visited, and has gone on to greater things within the Group.

They have built an excellent collection of hotels worldwide, my favourite being the Beverly Hills Hotel, which is faultless in my opinion.

www.dorchestercollection.com

I am NFI tonight!

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Contacted a friend who works in event management with big hotels such as The Dorchester - apparently this is a PR schmooze and NOT a product unveiling. Perhaps VK will be there and be able to suss a bit more info for us all, but I'm thinking BT's 2+2 is going to equal 3.5 tonight...hopefully I'll be proved wrong, but all I can do is report what I hear from contacts...

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Business Traveller replies:

Glad to see our invite is causing so much excitement among forum posters. It's just a guess, but either way we'll let you know tomorrow morning (or possibly tonight depending on how late it goes on).

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The talk of the town this evening !! I would say it is already a success--BT don't you think ? Just curious to read your report--who will be there and how "schmoozing" the event will be ?

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Willie's job is to drive the business forward, not to sit like a rabbit in headlights at the merest hint of Union activity.

The launch of the A318 London City-New York service, new Embraer domestic, Airbus shorthaul and 777 longhaul fleets coming on stream this year, new lounges at T3, new routes to Las Vegas, Sharm El Sheikh, Punta Cana and the Maldives are all examples of BA being innovative, rather than seeking out an obsolete return to the working standards of the past.

It's these innovations which will drive profitability and job security.

It's a shame the Union doesn't get it.

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Vintage - you do work for BA, no?

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Here is the artist's impression of new First:

www.leggatts.co.uk/images/bafirst.png

The pics of the real product I saw at the Las Vegas launch looked very similar, if a bit brighter inside than the link suggests.

It would seem odd to use an evening event to launch the product, so I am sceptical.

But given Mr Otley doesn't seem to have his Dance Card marked by BA for any further significant events in the coming weeks, then maybe this IS it.

All will be clear in the morning, no doubt!

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Alright Blokes !!

I take the fault from this one--I should not have mentioned VK before in this context and being so cheeky! Now we have to hear his "BA-propanda" all over again !!

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Oh Hess! Really, I mean what has VK done now other than enlighten us with information. Considering the thread is about BA not sure where you are coming from!! Have you started on the red wine a bit too early?

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Indeed.

Rather like naming an MP in Parliament, I would prefer it if I was not referred to directly here; that is normal forum etiquette.

My opinions are, as ever, my own.

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What is "BA-propanda"?

Some sort of World Wildlife Fund link up, perchance?

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Hi everyone !

Nigel, that was good--funny indeed !! But as you have read his comments earlier--it is all the same infos--what we have known before. He just keeps on repeating them--as if he is the PR waggon of BA.

VK--if you don't want to be referred too directly to BA--then please read your comments first--they are too obviously pro BA--it refers too directly of your own fondness--that some readers--really questions, your relation to BA !!

Yes, your opinion is your own and is respected-- we discussed here politely and frankly , but certainly not onesided. If you defend and give comments pro BA--then you should be aware that others do not side BA or do not have the same opinion like you do. That is the two sides of discussions and opinions.

You just can't give your comments and therefore ignore others. You can't be above the others with your comments and expect not to be questioned by others. Your are not the Site administrator--as far as I know.

So be sport and act like the other users !

Hess

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Very funny Vintage - that made me chuckle!

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Well put Hess, wine or no wine. :o)

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Hi everyone !!

Ups !! of course it is not "BA-propanda"--I would not make any adverts so cheaply for BA and for the WWF. I am that fair and sport---giving VK the credit for that funny and successful pun !!

It is of course--as most of you know already--BA propaganda. Hope they are enjoying their night in the "Dorch"

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Business Traveller replies:

It seems my maths is not what it should be, as the event was indeed a PR get together rather than any further information on the First launch. It was held in the rather lovely surroundings of the penthouse suite at the Dorchester, and Willie made a short speech which started with "I considered making this speech in Spanish but..."

Speaking to several BA and Dorchester representatives at the event, it seems they did briefly consider using the event (which was of course pencilled in sometime ago) for the launch of the First seat, but it now looks unlikely that we'll see it in the flesh until next year.

Willie's speech touched upon some of the positive news stories for BA this year (unsurprisingly given the audience of journalists), including the launch of all-business class flights from LCY, the new service to Las Vegas, First improvements including the partnership with the Dorchester for Afternoon Tea, and other long-haul launches including Gatwick-Maldives.

I trust we didn't get too many hopes up - as soon as we have any more information on the First product you'll be the first to know...

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Hi everyone !!

BT that was it ? a get-together of BA and journalists and telling them about the positive pictures of BA this year--they could have done it more formally through a normal press release for example.

BT are you being contained over something here?--it doesn't make any sense to organize a PR event and then what--stop it on the way through--is this a sign of conscience that Waterside do feel the importance of a possible turmoil coming in December and that the BA F product is( as far as we have learned here in BT from the previous comments) not that good to be launched yet--they might really consider in giving up their old and just polished F seats---and be daring and innovativ again ( as BA F product was in the past ). Just look what Qantas did with their F product. Is this that hard to follow ?

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Sorry to disappoint you Hess963, but we're definitely not "being contained" about anything - believe me if we knew anymore about the launch (good or bad) we'd say as it would create more impressions for our website.

Nobody is saying that BA stopped anything - we're merely pointing out that if the First product had been ready to be unveiled they might have chosen to do so at this event, where they knew a large number of journalists would be present.

In reality the event was a success for BA from an industry point of view even if they didn't really have anything new to announce, as there were possibly more travel editors present than i have ever seen in one room together - the lure of the Dorchester and the presence of Willie no doubt.

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Hi everyone !!

First of all thank you BT-for responding on my comment. I don't want to be impolite here, just trying to understand what is this event somehow.

I don't see the success in this event ( just apart from your description of the event )--yes, the many travel editors and journalists are lured in a penthouse high above overlooking London which Dorchester also use to show off and having" Mr. Waterside" himself and talked about topics which are not that new---so what is this all about then ?

Please don't tell me that is enough for the attending media ? What is this like---Willie meets James and Mary meets Anne --we had some small talks about things we already know--but who cares lets talk about anyway..blah, blah....

Well, if it so--hmmm, hmmm..

Hess

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I am surprised there was no illustration of new F on the tasteful flat screen TVs they have at these events.

Given we already have artists impressions which resemble almost exactly the photos I (and I assume Michelle Mannion) saw at the LV gathering a few weeks ago, plus the fact that the seat is actually on display within LHR, it does seem odd no formal unveiling has yet occurred.

Patience needed, I suppose.

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This event at the "Dorch" can hardly be described as a journalistic high-point. It's more a spoon-feeding event where the journalists (can travel-writers really be called journalists and can they really be held in the same high esteem as the Foots, Fisks, Hershs, Chomskys, Kapuscinskis, Woodwards, and Bernsteins?) simply gobble up whatever the PR outfits and their clients lob at them. I've seen baboons at zoos show more dignity and indifference. Seems to me that the travel press was just there to press the flesh, munch on canapes and exchange glib pleasantires.

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Some Baboon. Some zoo.

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Ugu bugu ugu bugu.

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The opinions expressed in earlier posts are not BA propaganda. I don't know if the author works for BA or not but it is irrelevant. Most of his opinions are quite informative and I myself welcome them (most of the time). I have nothing to do with BA other than being a customer but I agree with what he says. Those who think that BA should retreat and crawl into a hole because times are tough and/or there is a strike looming a) have obviously never run their own business, b) don't know much about promotion, marketing and PR and c) should be reminded that BA is no longer a state enterprise and therefore does not act like one. I run a business where the press have to be wooed constantly and sending a press release in the post just doesn't work. If you want the press to write about other things than strikes and pension deficits, you need to bribe them into coming to see you and you need to chat them up and plough them with alcohol (sorry Tom, I don't mean to imply that you yourself went there just for the champagne!). It's precisely at times like this that companies like BA have to crank up the PR machine, believe me, they know what they're doing.

And a propos the post of a few days ago whereby someone was effectively looking down on first class passengers saying that we are wasting our money should also be reminded that if it wasn't for premium passengers effectively subsidising his economy class journeys, he would be paying a much heftier price for his ticket. I would never look down condescendingly on someone for flying economy nor criticise their choice of product so don't do it here. And neither will I bother trying to justify why I choose to fly First in a forum like this.

May I remind everyone that the title of this thread is BA New First Class so can we actually stick to the subject. If you don't fly first and don't think it's value for money, then you have no place in the discussion. Users are invited to start their own threads entitled: "Is First Class good value for money" or "Should BA be having press evenings at the Dorchester" and continue the discussion with likeminded people.

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FC Traveller

I agree with all of that. BA is often criticised for poor communications - and compared with Virgin on this - by those who don't know how hard the communications dept there works. But when they have got good news to communicate - and there is some - I don't see how they can be wrong in making sure it is as widely reported as possible.

I agree we should focus on the new First product - and not on champagne at the Dorchester - though just for the record, one of our reporters attended the event - I have been in Asia all week.

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The day is not far...when us proles in Economy, frustrated by small, narrow seats, poor food, off-hand service, decide to throw off the shackles (well, unfasten seat belts) and rampage up the aisle, breaking down the walls (or, tearing down the dividing curtains) as we take the aircraft class by class (pun intended)...starting with WTP, then Business and, finally, First where we will no doubt see the uberpassengers cowering...we will drink your champagne, smear caviar over the AVOD screen, squirt your complimentary toileteries all over the First cabin and we will celebrate the downfall of the four class flight. Long live the revolution. :o)

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Hi everyone !!

Airpocket--Quel drame! Have you been watching "les misérables" lately :)-! But be sure--you are the one who can start a revolt in a BA plane very genuinely !

Countenance please! as some users will be saying right now--so let's get back to the topic.

BA New First Class-what about it ? Is it really "new" or just a polishing of existing hardwares? I personally see it as a polishing or fine tuning of an already existing thing which with its concept definitely behind some leading airlines in the industry---the daring NH or JL or EK or EY or SQ --not even near QF or CX. So where does this new F product will be placed around those contemporary products-well, let us wait and see -- when it will be finally launched.

BA's caution is reasonable comparing to the big expectation of its premium pax and fans. QF definitely raises the bar here. And LH-yes one of BA's main rival--very cautious indeed not to fail in launching a new must awaited F product---here as well LX raises the bar very high for LH.

So back to BA--where is the new BA F product to be seen? Definitely nowhere at the moment. But hopefully in a brighter light and much prayed path of success, otherwise that is it BA. The premium pax will never excused such blunder comparing to absolute big and competitive F products in the industry at the moment.

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BA may yet surprise us all, it may be that the image circulating is actually there only to throw everyone off the scent and bears no resemblance to the real thing. The only insight I have, which is not much, is that I had dinner with a good friend recently who is a senior crew member at BA. She claims to have been given a sneak preview of the new F and says that we will all have our socks knocked off. But despite the three bottles of wine we had, she remained completely tight lipped about details (what loyalty). Sorry guys, but I did try!

Otherwise, it will be as Hess said, a polishing of existing hardware. Which would only lead me to conclude that BA have decided that this will be their last F product in preparation for an exit from this market, something that so many other airlines have done, so why bother raising the bar. That would be a sad day indeed, and not totally implausible.

So you see Airpocket, you may not have to have your uprising after all. You may be flying in BA's first A380 with 852 other passengers!

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Hi everyone !!

FCTraveller thanks for your efforts in trying to get some infos-perhaps she was a very good drinker, you might have tried something else then-:o) ! Just kidding !

Wow...," ..have our socks knocked-off.." and the picture we thought to have of the new F cabin is just a hoax ! Hmm...do not you think that is too much expectations build up for the new F cabin?

These expectations can only be topped when the new F product is like the new F cabin products of other airlines and definitely nothing less than that.

But one comment of yours did make me sad--about BA's last try for the F cabin as a whole--that BA might leave this market behind. That is really a very sad picture for BA pax and fans. First the Concorde and now probably no First Class---what a terrible foresight !

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Well perhaps it's just me desperately clinging on to the hope that it will be something like EK, SQ, etc. BA abolishing first class, that would indeed be devastating but in this day and age, nothing would surprise me. As one of my favourite expression goes: "There are things in life that you cannot imagine, but there is nothing in life that cannot happen".

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Hi FCTraveller,

we all--who is interested in BA's future or products--are clinging that the new F product is like EY, EK , NH etc.... the picture of not being slightly near those F cabins--makes me shiver and actually do not want to enter the front cabin area and express a hard looking face full of disappointment. I still counts your " ..having our socks knocked off.." as a good sign---keep fingers crossed !!

Is it weird that we or some are actually talking like this over a product which is not there yet, be anticipated that much--while other very good airlines are flying UK with absolutely great F products and services already with super competitive tariffs----well, call me weird here or just BA fan.

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Well it depends, I have not used BA to the Far East for 3 years now and only use EK actually. I prefer to use a better product, for less money, with a refreshing short stop in Dubai than flying non-stop on BA for more money and a tired 13 year old product. But on North American east coast routes, those superior products don't exist and there is not much difference between AA, UA and BA, the only three airlines that still have F to my knowledge. So for those, given the choice, I'm sticking with BA for the time being and it gives me a chance to spend my BA miles. But I think BA have to decide, do this right or don't bother.

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Well, there are bit more than those 3 said before--there is AF, LH and LX with its great new F product--I would say the best F product between North America and Europe at the moment. This is definitely different in the other direction--with EK, EY, SQ, NH, JL, CX, QF...great huge choices in different alliances.

Yes, BA will have to decide--whether to do it right or be left behind and don't bother staying around. Let us really hope--inspite of this almost sure strike in december--that BA will introduce a daring and successful new picture of BA First Class--and perhaps be the striking and hopeful light at the end of a momentarily very dark and somber tunnel in Waterside

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Well yes, but I meant from London actually. As much as I don't mind stopping over in Dubai for an hour on my way to Bangkok, I don't really fancy flying to Paris/Zurich/Frankfurt in order to fly back over London in order to get to New York. Although I have to admit that a few years ago, when F fares from Germany were almost a third of the price of those from London, I did do just that!

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Especially catering the North American market , actually the whole American market--should be one of the aims of BA to serve and offer a great First Class product. As you have said--AA, BA, UA are the only ones in this route--then it should be easier for BA to win the upper hand here--of course only with a far more better product than it is at the moment

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Yes and actually, thinking about, and I'm certainly no expert on this, but how much more expensive can it be to develop and install a great F product that can compete with the best on the market as opposed to an "ordinary and not much better than the last one" product. Surely most of the cost goes into research, development, promotion and the downtime of the aircraft and doing the refit, and not so much the fact that it's a private suite as opposed to a seat. Just a few more materials. And you're right, if you could fly to LA in a private suite on BA, they'd have the F market sewn up in no time. The Americans won't do it.

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FCTraveller, I totally agree with you on this matter.

I hope BA's researcher and developers have made their homework thoroughly---there is a big potential for BA here--and this chance should not be wasted or ignored so easily.

The US airlines like DL, US, CO are all quite happy in polishing their premium business class product--that they do not waste any time for a First Class product. AA and UA will be thinking over this issues more sooner than later.

When LX, AF soon LH are polishing their F product--than it is only right and sensible that BA do this in the spirit when they were the pioneers of the great F class and C class products back in those days.

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1. BA's new First product is not "definitely nowhere to be seen". The seat/bed has been on display at the crew centre in LHR for some weeks now, and photos and other representations of it have been subtly displayed at recent BA events.

2. It is not a "polishing" of existing hardware, but a completely new seat and cabin fit out.

3. BA remains committed to First. The business model is built on premium traffic. This is exactly why BA is suffering so markedly in this prolonged, but not permanent, downturn. When the economy is successful, BA is amongst the most profitable airlines. Just check the wikipedia BA page for evidence of this over the past 10 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways

With approximately 90 longhaul aircraft presently in service with First, investment in hard product First lounges (the most recent opened just last month in T3) and investment in the soft product, the First cabin will continue to be offered on *most* longhaul routes, driven by demand.

4. I don't understand all this uninformed speculation about what the cabin will look like. Here is an artist's impression, which the entire Board stood in front of at an Investor Day earlier this year:

www.leggatts.co.uk/images/bafirst.png

5. The above accords entirely with the actual photographs of the new First cabin I saw a few weeks ago at a BA sponsored bash.

6. As geohoveuk rightly says, there really is no need for speculation over what format the hard product will take; it is there for all to see above..

7. While I think it might be overselling to state the new First will "knock your socks off" it will be a superb new cabin.

8. Unlike other airlines it will be applied and available consistently wherever the First product is offered, so no worries about "regional" or "legacy" products on longhaul routes.

9. First has always been a conservative product, and as with the latest iteration of www.newclubworld.com it will be fine tuning of a seat/bed/cabin which in my opinion (as an actual First traveller, rather than a class warrior throwing bread rolls from the back of economy) is fundamentally pretty good, just a bit tatty and lacking the technology one would expect to be available.

10. I am personally rather pleased the "suite" approach has not been adopted; I prefer an airy cabin and the dividers are a gimmick which don't really provide much privacy on board. Others may disagree, which is their choice, but that is my opinion and I stand by it. The overly "Bling" approach to F taken by some airlines is abhorrent to the BA First concept , and I am looking forward to the re-establishment of the "First - since 1924" branding. No other airline can match that heritage. None.

11. While the seat/bed won't change hugely from what we have now, there will be more space, privacy and better storage. Everything will work better, be more reliable, lighter (for environmental reasons) and more contemporary without being overly "trendy" or "fashionable".

12. There will be myriad improvements in the AVOD/TV screen/laptop power and the customer interface for the seat (call bell, light etc.). The square windows with electronic opacity certainly look a unique feature, and I hope the lighting in the cabin will be similarly atmospheric. Let's hope they can do something with then loos, though we may have to wait for the A380/787s for innovations there. I don't know for sure about the rumoured noise cancelling technology or the potential of a fireplace feature on board, but we will have to wait and see...

13. I am lucky to fly First several times a year, and in my recent experience the crews have been been superb, engaging, chatty and professional; just what I expect from BA. There is no reason why the impending industrial confrontation should impact the service delivered to passengers in the air.

14. A brand new, fresher cabin, with some technological innovations should go a long way to make crew proud of the First product, and that should be motivation in itself. Numerous soft product improvements in the recent months have helped this (new pillows, crockery, glassware, day wrap pashminas, BAgs).

15. The You First and Quintessentially concierge are also innovations other airlines don't all offer. The combination of new First and Concorde lounges, Elemis Spa and Arrivals Spa, suit pressing service and First infinity baths, private Cabanas and Concorde Arrivals dining at LHR T5, introduced at LHR over the past two years, is unique to BA First travellers.

16. I am not expecting a radical re-design; the F product was hugely radical when first introduced. As it comes to the end of its current life cycle, its longevity testament to its success, other carriers have introduced some impressive products, most notably Swiss, which I will be sampling next Easter. But few of those carriers have the large numbers of aircraft to convert as BA, nor the wide variety of routes and variability of demand/pricepoints seen by BA.

17. Where I can see some reluctance to be hugely radical is in the fact that the fleet will be changing significantly between 2013 and 2025; with new 777s, A380, 787 and hopefully A350XWB and 747-800's - these aircraft will offer much greater capacity for innovation and I would expect to see something ground-breaking on those new aircraft rather than in this iteration of F, which is significantly refreshing, rather than re-inventing, the product.

18. BA still has an unrivalled network from LHR, and that coupled with top notch crew, a cabin which is designed for the serious regular traveller and the ability to make proper tea, will ensure I continue to fly with them in First where possible.

www.ba.com/first

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Hi everyone !!

Well, I am sure geohoveuk that we have heard you--we just do not want to see it in that way--at least at the moment--because we still hope it could be more than that.

But as always and very prompt as usual to defend BA when this is in distress.....Vintage Krug comes to rescue ! Wow..you definitely have my respect for taking time and efforts to write these---what-- " 18 decrees for BA F Class". If somebody in Waterside in the PR section is reading this--do take our Vintage Krug in consideration to be your next PR agent---he is doing a good job---but unfortunately not for BA's expense or is it, hmmm...??

Your views are not all bad--but one question--why did BA not install a new concept for First Class like Qantas ? Is it really cheaper or better for BA to just fine tuned the existing product? Yes, the First product is in the crew centre and not nowhere near any paying pax! Is BA so afraid that the people will hate it from the beginning? If it so--then BA do something about it before risking any PR catastrophe.

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Well we'll speculate all we want, thank you very much.

The proof will be in the pudding as they say and until we actually see it and experience it in the flesh on an 8 hour flight, only then will the fare paying passenger say yay or nay. I'm sure it will all be very nice and a much refreshing and welcome change from what is in place now, there is no doubt about that and there's no need to do such a big selling job on it.

But all I can say is that as a First passenger (and I take about 25 F flights a year), I've experienced other airlines' products and I speak to other F passengers all the time. Our expectations are high so it's no good just saying, well here it is, that's what you get, and we think that's more than enough. Some may not like the the private suite concept but many people actually do, me included.

BA have to come to terms with the fact that they have lost a lot of business from customers leaving them for better products. They have waited just too long, 13 years in fact, compared to some other airlines who are now ripping out First refits they did 3 years ago, let alone 13 . So why the long delay? It was supposed to be ready in September, that deadline has passed and we're still none the wiser. And God forbid I should speculate but there's something not right here. I think they simply can't afford it at the moment and that's why they keep pushing it back.

The only reason this version of First has had a long life cycle is because BA have waited all this time to replace it, not because "its longevity was a testament to its success". Most regular F passengers think it's way past its sell by date.

But let's not think for a second that the customers who have left will start queuing up to come back. Some will but many won't, especially when they have now experienced better products elsewhere. So let's not put a gloss on this and say "everything will be fine, just wait and see". But if BA think they will fill the F cabin with this when it launches, then I say good luck to them. You can't live on your "heritage" forever, not in this day and age. You survive in this game by having ground-breaking products and being a leader, not for being "First since 1924".

As for BA's commitment to F, well I remain unconvinced. A number of years ago they quietly started dropping F from selected destinations and didn't even have the courtesy to inform customers who were already booked (me being one of them and it happened twice). Showed up at the airport and was told that F was discontinued 3 weeks ago and was made to sit in Club World and its "dormitory" style cabin. Happened again 3 weeks ago to Toronto, I had a confirmation in First Class booked months ago and I find out at LHR that F is no more, on any flight. They have my phone number and my email address, if that's the way they treat their premium passengers, well ...

So all this to say I have doubts about their commitment. They took F out of Montreal years ago then put it back on earlier this year, now it's out again. Toronto which has two flights a day went to one with F a few years ago. Earlier this year, they put it back on both, I thought great, but now there's no F for the next 6 months because they stuck two old 767's on the route until April. BA, MAKE UP YOUR MIND, you're driving me bananas!

It may well be the case that BA didn't have much of an appetite to invest in this iteration of First because they have too many new planes coming online after 2013. All I can say to that is that Willie shouldn't have faffed about and he should have ordered his planes earlier on rather than wait until his pension funding was sorted, which is still a problem anyway. And I think that proves my point more than anything, the ground-breaking product is needed NOW, not in 2018 just because you have new planes coming then.

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"It was supposed to be ready in September, that deadline has passed"

Where did you see that stated? There has never, to my knowledge, been a date formally specified.

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Well actually, I had a long conversation about the new First Class seat with a BA employee at the Business Travel Show on the BA stand earlier this year and she is the one who said September "for sure". Excuse me for not getting it in writing but I'm sure BA themselves have said it would be ready later this year. I don't think (even if this does happen) that flying it on one route to New York on December 31st counts as "later this year". As far as I'm concerned, 2009 is over now so it will not be before 2010 at the earliest.

I refer you to the BA website which was updated earlier this year to say: "Over the coming months, we will begin our upgrade of First". Now forgive me for assuming that this did NOT mean 2010 especially if I read it in June 2009 as any other reasonable passenger would conclude. "Coming months" means what it means, the months that are coming relatively soon, not those in the following year 6-9 months away. Why not just say, "next year ....".

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And why not just give a launch date now. Surely, things at BA need a bit of advance planning and if they are going to start relatively soon, they must be able to say so. It's not like someone gets up one morning and says, "hey, let's fit the new F seat on this plane today shall we?" If they can't say today when it is launching, then it's still some time away, that is my point. It's not really about who said what and when.

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The website stated they would *begin* the upgrading of First "in the coming months".

That was a newly penned webpage, quoted early in this thread, in May 2009.

Since then, there have been the various soft product changes, including Dorchester Afternoon Tea, introduced.

So they did "begin updating First" within the schedule set out.

The year is far from over, and Q4 2009 is the latest info I have.

edited: to change "update" to upgrade

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Well actually, it says "upgrading" not "updating". There's a difference. And come on, I think we're clutching at straws here. Do you actually think that toiletries by Dr. Harris, egyptian cotton sheets, a velvet cushion and Dorchester Afternoon Tea makes a blind bit of difference to their existing old and tired First Class cabin? It goes on to say "a luxurious new cabin and new seat" in the following paragraph. Has anyone not noticed that today is 23rd November??? We are more than half way through Q4 2009. And assuming they start tomorrow, how many planes will have been fitted this year? Not many I suspect. If you want to have a real debate about this, leave the sheets and afternoon tea aside and answer this: why can't they just come out with it and/or say when they will launch and give us a date and a schedule of some sort. As I said, one plane on one route before year end just doesn't cut it, if they can even manage that. And it will take two years to do the refit anyway so we'll still by flying Old First in 2012 probably. I'm sorry to say this but I'm beginning to agree with some other posts on this forum about some participants doing a lot of PR for BA. That's exactly what I would expect to hear from a PR department. Glossing it over and not dealing with the real issue.

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Golly, a lot of anger there.

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Hold on here, one thing I am not is an angry person, and I resent being accused of it. I thought this was a forum for debate, which is exactly what is going on here, a healthy animated discussion which I always enjoy. Simply saying that you disagree with someone else's opinion doesn't make you angry. If however, you have nothing else to add to the debate at this time, that's fine. My friend, believe me, if I was angry, you would know about it. LOL.

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Hi everyone !!

FCTraveller very well said and argued !

That is the problem why a lot of BA premium pax and fans are angry--this game of date launching. As you have stated the people felt subjectively mock of this inaccurate statement. It is really better and honest for BA to state clearly when the new F product will be really launched. And not the other F enhancements like Dorchester Afternoon Tea or new amenity bag etc.. Yes, they are great newbies--but it is not the prime launching the pax want --the seat is the main role !!

We want clear and honest date to depend on and not being fooled---actually no sensible premium rev pax like to be mock of --he just take the next best F product !

I just hope it won't be timed with the possible strike in mid december--that will be a stupid thing to do. Probably it is better to take the necessary time without hassle and concentrate to present a very good product which all pax will be impressed and forget all the waiting and speculations.

Or has BA finally realised that the new F product wouldn't be that good at all. That inspite of the great efforts for tuning it up --- the BA F class passengers have evolved and now wanted innovations, excitement, exclusivity, daring, ---a not a refreshed old product. In a great competition in this product segment--serving an old product with some modifications--does not sound really enticing.

So what is the problem in Waterside--why this insecurities. Stop this speculations and give the pax some decent and honest answers. Or commit the fatal fault---losing your pax's confidence and loyalty.

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Hess thank you, you have crystalised my thoughts eloquently. And I think there is a lot of truth in what you say but others in this forum would vehemently deny it. They may have now realised that they have taken 3-4 years to come up with something that is probably already or very soon to be out of date, let alone 2015, or even 2024 if we go by the last product cycle. WW is probably scratching his head thinking: What in the world do I do now? The problem with big companies sometimes is that they are very big machines and once they go down one road, it is difficult to turn around, take a detour, and go down another one, if they see an obstacle in their path. Smaller companies are sometimes better placed to do that.

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FCtraveller--it is without any doubt--that if this product is lauched like what we have heard from geohoveuk and vintage krug--it will be a PR disaster. What--daring to say ? Yes, BA just look around you--look your other Oneworld partners QF and CX--their concept evolved from their previous ones. What is the problem with BA in coming with a new concept. It was great for 13 years when you revolutionized the F class product in the market. And now 13 years--after it---look on your rivals--they did not stop and thought of just refreshing or tuning up their products---they followed your footsteps and became innovativ--they though of surprising their premium pax, make them in a way addicted to the F product and win their loyalty. BA--you won that for 13 years so easily and now--what happened?

Good question--what do I do now ? It is a shame that it took 3-4 years to think for a concept which has lead to this fine tuning. Really weak efforts--definitely uninspiring. So--is it really too late to go back and think over sensibly, if this F product will going to be a success or not ? This is the most important question--why spend money for nothing or for a possible disappointment and lose face to your loyal premium pax?

I do not want to push too far here--but isn't it better to see when to stop and think over it properly--in how to make it a success rather than hope that the pax will like it --somehow !

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I agree although I think BA first went past its sell by date quite a few years ago so they did not impress us for a full 13 years. And it will probably not be a PR disaster, they just won't fill their seats as much as they could have and they will no longer be regarded as a leader by the people who matter. From a PR point of view, they will do as they always do when someone criticises an element of their service, they will simply say that it has been a resounding success and the feedback has been overwhelmingly positive. Nobody will ever admit to getting it wrong, not to the outside world, and probably not even internally. Do you think the person in charge of this would walk into Willy's office and say, we spent millions on this new cabin and we got it totally wrong. I think not. What they'll say is, it's great, it's fantastic, we give them a Dr. Harris lip balm and a cup-a-cha from the Dorchester and the punters just love it. No worries.

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Well, in a way they will fill their seats--probably more through upgrading or through seat awards--but probably less through revenue. If you have the choice in how to spend your four to five grand --would you go and try the newest, exciting and enticing suite product which gives you more exlusivity and sophisticated feeling-- like in a private plane or go for an all too obvious old tuned product which only serves its purpose ?--nothing more nor less. I think a lot more of the premium pax will take the first one.

And it will be the worst thing that they can do--ignoring and falsifying the truth---I would say that it will be the worst PR employees you could really have in your company.

So it will be the best for all to evaluate the current situation and ask themselves honestly-What kind of a seat do we have? Is it really competitive? Could we really earn money with it? How can we built on this for the future of the product?

Just let me say this one thing very frankly! If I want a decent tea-- I will go to a nice tea parlour in one of London's grandest places. If I want some very good cosmetics or such --I will buy their products directly . And if I want a great F class product --I choose the best in the market which is worth my money !

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A fine riposte to the usual 'BA spin', FCT! By the way, does anyone know the answers to the following questions?: 1) Will F class pax, despite paying a big dollop of cash for their tix, still have to pay for seat selection? 2) Will these super-duper new F class seats be available on BA's uberglamorous flights to the Maldives? I can just imagine the louche crowd decadently recling across their super-duper seats, cheap champagne in one hand , designer shades perched modishly on their heas, a chunky copy of Conde Naste Traveller in the other. :o)

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But this is the thing, it IS all PR hype. It is not the best tea in the world, it's just another cup of tea endorsed or branded by the Dorchester. And as for the toiletries, that is actually my business. I have quoted for the manufacture of toiletry bags and their contents for several airlines in the past (BA not one of them) and their budget is so ridiculously low that only the cheapest and nastiest of formulations can be used. Does BA actually think that their typical F passenger goes home and says to his wife, guess what dear, I had Dorchester tea on the plane this afternoon, I will fly with BA again for sure. Probably something they'd get more mileage for in the back of the plane. Just give the passenger what he really wants and stop wasting time, money and effort on little extras that don't really mean much to the CEO of a company, or stop making such a song and dance about it. That's not what matters and it's not how you keep customers flying the front of the plane.

You know, I've not done any work this afternoon, and it's all BA's fault. But I'm not angry though!!!

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I think this is one of the science in the industry. Compose an object of desire for your premium pax which enhance or build up the main product which is normally the grandest seat of the airline.

But never forget that this is only a sideproduct which should not cost more than necessary and still in the end--removable. A lot of pax which sit in the F cabin let themselves overwhelmed by the ambience of exclusivity, feeling absolutely special--that is good--no doubt. But often they lack the feeling of seeing through the details. Like you have said as an example--the amenity kits which are sometimes filled with really useable products of quality--the other side--very cheap brands which you wouldn't even give to your hated family members. I won't begrudge those who earned their miles and frequent flyer status mostly due to flying in Y or Prem Y. --they deserve it to sit in F class--that is it ! But the companies should know--how to balance the rev and non rev and granting their frequent flyers such nice experiences.

And FCTraveller you are right--the companies should start or should always hear what their rev pax are wanting as they bring the money in the company.

I don't know in which time zone you are--perhaps you don't need to work now. But be honest--this time it is definitely not BA's fault ! LOL ! Did enjoy though, discussing our points of view-- constructively !!

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Well it would seem BA will in fact miss their 2009 deadline after all. I have just been advised by a nice lady on the You First line that the new cabin will not start rolling out until "January at least". I could swear they told us "in the coming months" back in April! Who wants to put bets that nothing will happen in the first quarter.

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Right then Freq.Trav. I'm willing to wager that nothing will happen in the first quarter. We're presuming that the first quarter ends on the 31st of April, 2010 right?:o)

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Well Airpocket, you may very well be right with your date of 31 April, in that case, it will never happen. Actually 31 March. Problem is that I want to wager the same as you. I wonder if Ladbrokes are running a book?

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I heard early 2010 but whether that means January or April I don't know. What is an early month?

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Yes good question. I also wonder what does "in the coming months" mean when you are in April 2009? April 2010?

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The probable launching time span is spring 2010--if they get it right! I still hold on my opinion--if it ís not far more better than the existing one and not nearer than EY, EK or LX than forget it "Waterside blokes"--no need to make yourself and the brand BA First Class ridiculous. Find a better solution than the excisting concept--try and get a good PR team for the sake of a better evaluation and please do not forget to ask the real paying premium pax this time.

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That is a good point Hess, I don't get the chance to travel First very often, so there may be a trick I have missed. But when changing in to ones pj's the toilet is not the best place to do it. Perhaps they could incorporate a changing facility. Appreciate that may be at the expense of seats or whatever or perhaps to make the seat a bit more private to do it at seat.

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Hi N. !

Regarding changing areas on board. CX tried this concept for a few years before on the B747-400 aircrafts. Later they realized it is more efficient and needable to use this space as a toilet. I think the airlines just have to consider, to give more space in the lavatories. Good example was the premium lavatories of GF in the A330 or those in the B777 of Jetairways. I think most of us who change their clothes during long haul and overnight flights know exaxtly that cramped feeling and always hitting the wall or door while moving some body parts

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I would imagine launching the new cabin (pictured in the artist’s impression below) in the coming weeks might be a tad counterproductive….

www.leggatts.co.uk/images/bafirst.png

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VK, nice to hear from you, we were wondering when you would pipe through again, we were doing our best to draw you back into the debate.

Anyway, excuses, excuses. LOL

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It ain't over 'til the Fat Lady sings. ;)

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I understand that the first aircraft with new First will be fitted out in January. No idea whether the strike will alter this, but the first a/c will take quite a while to complete, as it will have some new AVOD systems which are complicated to install. Can't say anything else just now...but mid Jan to start installation is what I understand...

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From the artists impression sent by VK I must say it looks very much the same as the existing FIRST. After all this time surely they could have come up with something better

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Although the layout is the same, I understand there are several technological innovations which do make this cabin rather "special" while maintaining the feel of the cabin which, apart from being a tad tatty, is broadly well liked.

I would not have liked them to have gone with the closed suites approach, but that is a personal preference, rather like those who prefer wedgy beds to fully flat beds in Business Class.

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Hi I have not contributed to this forum before but I do have an an interest in First Class; just not so much with B A. My purpose in posting is to seek clarification from contrbutors as to whether there is any truth to a report that BA's replacement aircraft would not include First Class cabins?

I am not sure if I read the report in this magazine or a newspaper.

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antipodes BA ordered a few three class 777-236ER with CW, WTP, WT, the plan was never to have first on them, so it is not a recent development, rather they are used on routes like DEN, ACC and the new services to Sharm and the Maldives from LGW. The 777-336ERs on order will feature the new first product being discussed on this thread. Speaking of which, Vintage Krug, I am a big fan of BA and wary of the likes of EK whose First product is unbelievably variable from aircraft to aircraft and relies on gimmicks like at seat un-refrigerated mini bars and gold plated door handles. However, you must concede that BA's new proposed product as seen on this page is far too far the other way. It looks stylistically too similar to CW. The silver/ dark blue is perfect for that cabin as it looks spacious and modern, but for First, it simply looks distinctly mid-market and nowhere near luxurious enough. Furthermore, even if BA did not go down the fully enclosed suite route, they still should have reduced seats to at least 12, as the width and length of the new F offering will be comparable to the new Business Class products being rolled out by its competiitors. If this is the F product to be launched, I think it will be a serious (but not fatal) strategic mistake for the future of the cabin in BA.

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Am I the only one who appreciates a decent view through a window?

Granted, I only fly BA FIRST 2 or 3 return journeys each year but I have always been disappointed with what little I could see through the window. The new mockup of BA FIRST appears to repeat this setup with the passenger's head against a partition and the only view through the window being (at a angle) towards the foot of the seat.

Of course the real advantage of FIRST is the ability to get a decent night's sleep; who cares then what is out the window...

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It now seems the new B777-300ERs on order will be fitted with a small F cabin. But the original intention was never to fit F class on these particular aircraft:

http://www.businesstraveller.com/archive/2009/september-2009/special-reports/room-at-the-top

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I regularly travel F on the HKG-LON sector and frankly, BA's outdated and small bed is like sleeping in a coffin. As a result, I fly CX who has the largest F class bed I have experienced.

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Interesting that you chose the word "coffin". Perhaps this sub-conscious allusion to the morbid is indicative of a sixth sense alerting you to the eventual demise of a certain airline?:o)

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I sincerely hope not ! I recall fondly BA leading all others in Inflight product partcularly, the front end. The first proper (albeit narrow) bed in F class which I enjoyed on numerous trips. The others have caught up and exceeded BA partcularly, CX and SQ who have the widest and largest beds I have experienced. Ultimately, product counts and one hopes BA will eventually find the means to invest in this essential area.

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Hi everyone !!

Yes, everyone--we are all back to the utter point of what BA new F class should definitely have--new innovativ concept with wide seats and large bed. With a decent touch of privacy feeling in a private jet. Giving this exclusive and being special like the Concorde. We have been discussing this topic since may this year and BA have upset us--yes frankly that straight--we actually have enough of the hide and seek of the new BA F class--its launch has been pushed back in the future with the nearest introduction in the first quarter of 2010 ( it is set to be lauched ). Very few people out there will be saying: " but the new F seat is already out and can be seen in some operational facilities for training or similar..." That is the point !!--we feel like fooled around !!

Now nobody is really that interested anymore. Why ? I think we have discussed the probable F class and it is more likely to disappoint us as it is probably only an evolution of the present seat. Although BA PR&Management know exactly how demanding the premium pax of today are and how competitive the other airlines and their launched F cabin suites like EY, SQ, CX etc..are comparing to BA's seat .

The worst thing has already happened--BA fans have enough of the waiting and starting to realize--there are other airlines out there which already have a great F product and it exists !! BA -- I already commented this too often--now that more pax are disinterested, it is only good--to surprise us with a great seat and with this " wow" factor---otherwise: don't bother us to get your attention and spare our time and money for a better product

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It does seem like the fat lady is waiting in the wings. :(

I would imagine it was the threat of Union action during December which disrupted plans for a Q4 launch; a shame as that was the most reliable information I had.

However, rest assured that the investment in designing the new interior has already been made. The design phase is complete. Implementation cannot be far off!

When it is released it will be an innovative design, and a completely redesigned seat and cabin environment not available on any other airline which I am certain will be well received across the many and varied markets which BA serves.

It will not be an enclosed suite, but if it had been I for one would not have been pleased as I prefer a more open cabin.

www.leggatts.co.uk/images/bafirst.png

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I never expected less from you VK !! Always there and trying hard to defend BA in whatever circumstances.Feeling insulted when others made a negative comment over BA---really Waterside should pay you for such efforts ( probably already--with some upgrades and insight infos---hmmm... !!)

But most of us--paying premium pax--have enough of this fooling around and trying to win us for a product which is actually not a competition to other already existing products.

It is your own opinion and you can convince yourself for whatever BA strategies are out there in the market---but please leave us out of it. As we want a great product for our money and not an illusion ! Let us wait and see, if your high profiled descriptions of the new F product is really that worth writing for or even flying it !!

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I don't feel insulted.

I am not, nor ever have been, remunerated or employed by BA in any capacity.

With five sectors booked already in Q1 2010, I am looking forward to sitting in the new cabin:

www.leggatts.co.uk/images/bafirst.png

But the existing one isn't too shabby and suits me well:

http://tinyurl.com/yfkhxlx

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Alas, the deck-chairs (or, should that read "New First Class Seats"?) continue to be shuffled as the ship heads towards an iceberg.

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Wildgoose's posts do contain a certain uncanny similarity to those of another well known contributor to this forum.....

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Funny you should think that too...

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Seems the latest update is that the first 777 to have the new First product will be going to Cardiff (where the refits are performed) on 11 January.

BA is expecting it to take three weeks to fit out the aircraft, so early February for crew familiarity testing and viewing of the cabin, with passenger ops shortly thereafter.

The cabin will look exactly as posted by me a few month's ago in this artist's impression:

www.leggatts.co.uk/images/bafirst.png

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Hate to say this Vintage Krug but if the fit-out is as shown in the artists impression you submitted. Then the flight experience will be like travelling in a funeral parlor.

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Must say that my first impression, based on the images provided by VK, is also dissapointing. Not so much New First as refurbished First.

Have just experienced CX First with just 9 seats in the nose of a 747 and did QF A380 earlier. Both are super products backed by attentive crew. BA have a reputation for surprising everyone and whilst the images may not be the same as SQ EK etc, the end product may be superb. Let's hope so.....

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Hate to say this Vintage Krug but if the fit-out is as shown in the artists impression you submitted. Then the flight experience will be like travelling in a funeral parlor.

That really made me laugh Antipodes!

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Let us hope that BA will surprise us and that image of the soon to be F cabin is just a hoax to distract us from the real and hopefully better product. Seriously, what a sad comment to compare the BA F cabin with a funeral parlour-hopefully this is not a suspicious sign

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Once again it is rather tiresome that you keep repeating that you believe this image to be some sort of "hoax".

Believe me I have better things to do than create faked images of such things.

As I have stated previously, the image was released by BA at the Investor Day presentation in 2009, with most of the Board sitting underneath it. Notice the BA font used in the wording.

The image is almost exactly the same as actual photographs I, and others, have seen of the new cabin at events hosted by BA. Crew who have seen the mock up in the LHR t5 Crew Report Centre also confirm it to be an accurate representation.

I am very pleased with this new cabin. It will be totally new, not simply a refurbishment of old hardware, with several innovative features which do not come across in the picture.

The new, lighter materials will also make considerable weight and therefore fuel savings.

But let's not forget that reducing the number of seats would drive up prices, and reduce award inventory.

BA has a wide range range of types of route (from 4 hour TLV hops to 24 hour SYD hops) and this is the right style of cabin for the airline at present. It will be consistent across the fleet, which gives customers certainty about what they will get, rather than the lottery of seat types seen on some carriers.

I am not fan of enclosed suites, and am pleased this has not been adopted by BA.

I am sure the new BA A380 F due in 2012 will be a step change, but for now this illustrated new BA F cabin is simply about making a good product which had become a bit tired, slightly fresher and more modern.

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This BA "new" product in First is like Elizabeth Taylor !

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Is that a compliment or a slur?:o)

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WSJ confirms work has commenced on the new cabin, with a £100m investment by British Airways:

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100111-706420.html?mod=WSJ_World_MIDDLEHeadlinesEurope

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Another grainy artists's impression of the seat here:

http://lassendasmountain.com/images/bafirst2.jpg

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I've just booked a couple of vacations for later in the year travelling first on BA so excited about seeing the new cabin, fingers crossed I will get one of the refitted aircraft. I presume they are going to rolling the new service out over a while, any ideas when the entire fleet will be completed ? I haven't seen any publicity from BA on this yet other than the information shared on this forum.

Just on a general point I would like to say how useful I have found the forum entries, on the whole the advice and observations shared have helped me with a number of travel planning issues.

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Difficult to draw any firm conclusions frmo that shot.

My first reaction is slight a resemblance to a NCW seat and a feeling that it looks like the better end of the business cabin offers than a first.

But I'll reserve judgment until I have seen the cabin in the flesh, as the picture does not really give a sense of scale nor of the cabin ambience.

The colour scheme is rather Swiss, thinking of the A332 (not that this is a bad thing, depends on what you like.)

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It does rather resemble the same colour palette as Club World, but I think the real distinction will be in the technological innovations, larger AVOD screen, bigger seat, whizzy new electronically occluded windows and the general cabin ambience.

The current F cabin works, it is just looks a little Country House rather than Contemporary City Centre Apartment.

Here is the latest news:

New F seats are in Cardiff, where the BA Maintenance Centre lives, for first two aircraft to be refitted.

The first Aircraft will be a 777, to be completed “in next couple of weeks” (seems to be G-VIIU) next will be a 747 likely to be completed by March (likely to be G-CIVF).

Test and CAA certification will have to be completed on both airframes prior to passenger service, there will then have to be a proving period where any crew training and technical issues can be ironed out before the rollout begins in earnest.

BA has approximately 90 longhaul aircraft with an F cabin. There are, I understand, two production lines for aircraft refits/servising.

Assuming the potential for turning round each F cabin refit in a little under two weeks, plus the fact that there will be some new deliveries and some retirement of older airframes, I would estimate a worst case scenario timescale about 18 months-2 years for the complete fleet fitout.

Of course lots of things can impact that, as we have seen in the past, but the bottom line is you are less likley to be on a plane with new F during 2010, more likley during 2011 and almost definately during 2012.

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What I cannot grasp at the moment is the advantage over the top end J class, e.g. this one......

http://asia.businesstraveller.com/files/News-images/Jet-Airways/Jetairways-premiere.gif

Electrically occluded windows would not interest me at all, a simple blind does the business, it is the quality of the seat and the environment I am looking for.

I have flown this Jet Airways J class seat and it is better than NCW IMHO, although NCW is better than the others I have tried and is a very good product.

But until I see a better picture or see the real thing, I'll reserve further comment.

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Expat: I have no inside knowledge of the forthcoming BA product, but it would seem clear that it will offer a far more spacious personal environment than the Jet Airways seat you reference, and that 3 crew for a maxiumum of 14 passengers on a 744 is a considerably higher crew:pax ratio than of any J-class offering.

Combine that with truly on-demand dining, greater quantities of catering per sector, finer wines and enhanced tier points and miles for Executive Club/OW cardholders, and there is a clear differential between First and Club.

Commentators may lament the apparently evolutionary nature of this cabin upgrade, or attach varying personal value to F&B provision, personal space or crew ratios, but the fact remains that there is a difference between J & F, now and with this new product.

Although BA are unable to compete with, say, SWISS's aspiration to offer First Class cabins on all their intercontinental aircraft, they do offer their First Cabin on a far greater number of aircraft and routes than SWISS. One assumes that BA feel the most pressing need is to ensure that their cabin reflects the needs and aspirations of passengers on all routes, in all regions, and to do so in a manner which is consistent.

As has been discussed at length on BT recently, some other carriers offer headline-grabbing products only on a number of their routes and on certain aircraft types in their fleets. Whilst it's true that those flagship products may outshine some others, the potential for passenger disappointment and defection is high when they encounter the carrier's lesser product (at the same price).

If precedent is followed, then, it's to be expected that BA will have exactly the same seat on all F-carrying aircraft types, on every single one of their F-offered routes. Again, some commentators may attach lesser value to that, but I can assure you that very many revenue passengers consider it a huge virtue. Reliability is all.

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Continental Club

I would expect the service to be way better in F, than J.

What I am saying is from that photograph, it is difficult to see how the BA seat is better than the Jet seat.

It may be, but it is not obvious from the photo, which s not a great advert for the seat.

Have you flown the Jet Airways seat? I have, more than once.

I have not flown the new BA F seat, so cannot compare them, but I have flown the old BA F seat and from a seat only perspective, didn't find a lot of difference, although the Jet video screen was a lot larger and the BA seat offered more space around the seat, which one would expect in F.

I slept very easily on both.

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Reliability is all.

Oh, the irony!

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Hi everyone !

I have flown 9W in F and C classes. Both are great products and great attentive service attitudes of F/As. I could only recommend flying in both classes. The new BA F class has to prove itself first. I just hope it will be far more better than the previous one. I am very curious---I want to be convinced first through my own experiences and not only through the told experiences of one specific frequent traveller of BA here.

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Before we get too excited about 9W, let us not forget that 9W have decided to operate a two-class service on some of the LON-INDIA flights. Don't go paying for F when what you will actually get is J.

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Wildgoose

For the avoidance of doubt, I am looking at pictures of two seats and looking to differentiate between these; not the service level, not the soft product etc.

I am not comparing the varying range of products in any particular airline either.

Just interested in what makes this seat special, as VK says is it; I am sure he has his reasons, but they are not obvious from the photo.

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I can't help thinking the seat (and bed) size and personal space is the same as before. BA's improvements appear cosmetic but the basic product, the F class hardware remains the same. Somewhat Elizabeth Taylor with face lifts.....

Compared to CX's F class whic is 3 feet wide at the shoulders, this BA bed remains narrow and outdated.

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HKGdirector

That is exactly my initial response to the picture - even the video screen appears smallish by contemporary standards.

So the question remains what physically differentiates this seat from the Jet Airways seat?

Vintage Krug (who usually knows what he is talking about when referencing BA) says this seat is a great improvement over the previous version, but it isn't obvious to me.

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Expat_Consultant.

Precisely my point. In F class the key ingredient is the size and comfort of the bed. CX's new F now have only 9 beds in the front end of their 747s whilst BA's antiquated cabin has I belive 12 ? Seems to me this is just a "face lift" and not a new seat/bed ? VK our forum's resident BA PR Manager may be able to enlighten us further ?

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Well of course the new BA seat is going to be better, and I'm sure a vast improvement. But frankly anything you come up with to replace a 15 year old product is going to be "better". But the question is, will it compete with what is in the marketplace now and in the next 15 years (but let's hope they don't wait that long again for the next one).

I have just returned from a trip to the Far East and again flew EK on the A380 and B777 in F. I want to address the issue of the private suite again and the comments from those who say that personally they don't like them and are glad BA is not doing it. (Basically, this is more of a case of BA and their supporters saying: "well if we can't have them, let's rubbish them instead"). If the PV sliding doors are open and the middle partition is down, there is not much difference in terms of being "enclosed" to the current BA seat. I don't feel closed in at all. In fact, I was pondering this especially on this trip in light of the previous comments, and I feel less closed in. The PV gives almost twice as much floor space to the point where they were able to do away with the overhead lockers. This gives the cabin a completely different feel of openness and height (and the starry ceiling is really nice touch). The seat gives you total privacy (which should be important to most F passengers), but still maintains this air of openness. I do have to question the criticism of private suites and the real reasons behind it. To me it is totally unjustified.

But back to BA, I remain unconvinced of their commitment to F, they keep taking it off key routes and flights then putting it back on. They are installing a new F product that allows them to fleece their loyal customers of thousands of pounds because they have enough of those "loyal" customers who will fly BA at all cost. As I said before, if they can still fill their F seats and invest less, let them. I think they have given up on First, they are now committed to a new product up front which they should simply call: PREMIUM BUSINESS.

By the way, speaking of Business, I had not noticed this before but the EK business seat is equivalent to BA First. No doubt.

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FC Traveller

Interesting your read of your experiences.

My long haul travelling pattern is distinctly at the short end of the spectrum these days, 6- 8 hours and I find it very difficult to rationalise the value of F over the excellent J classes available.

I'm not particularly concerned about exclusivity ( a major F differentiator) or food/wine (I often sleep for long perionds), but the seat and sleeping comfort is vital.

Jet, BA NCW, EK (on the 777-300ER) etc are very comfortable. I also find it easy to sleep on the angled beds, e.g. LH.

Unless this new BA seat has hidden virtues, it may well hasten the end of F in the airline.

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FCT, if BA's premium passengers are daft enough to want to be fleeced then that's their problem.For the rest of us savvy travellers, we will simply go where there is value for money. By the way on which particular route and aircraft do EK's J class seats match BA's F class?

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Yes I agree.

I had a quick look on the A380 and I'm not sure but I think the B777-300ER is the same. The amount of space is huge. The configuration is 1-2-1. It's just slightly less private than BA First. I have always hated Club World because to me the 2-4-2 configuration just looks and feels like a dormitory. You will never catch me dead on a BA flight in F or J heading east from London given what's on offer elsewhere: much better and much less expensive.

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I am always very careful in my use of the word "hate".

It is a powerful word and should not be misused.

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VK

The Concise Oxford Dictionary says....

hate · v. feel intense dislike for or a strong aversion towards.

Seems reasonable to me that he feels intense dislike or aversion to something he perceives as a dormitory.

Maybe you are confusing the use of the word 'hate' in the context of an in animate object, versus a person?

Personally, I like NCW very much.

Now, back to the matter, setting aside the service levels and soft product, how does this new first seat beat the better J seats in your opinion?

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Dear all, I recently had the opportunity to experience the new LX business and first products on the ZRH-JFK route and can come with a direct comparison.

BA NCW versus LX business – I have only travelled day time in the BA NCW from CAI to LHR on upper deck of the B747 in the excellent rear-facing seat near the emergency exit. This may be one of the best, if not best seats on any aircraft I have experienced. A very comfortable, private experience.

The LX business cabin on the A330-300 can feel a bit cramped in comparison. Nevertheless, the seat was very comfortable for sleeping and finally LX has upgraded pillows and blankets. I would rank the seat 8/10 on the sleeping meter, and 6/10 for privacy. The biggest advantage of the NCW seat in sleeping position is that your lower body is not “trapped” in a cocoon like many other seats are. The LX seat you really disappear under the seat in front of you. For the same price, time table, and guaranteed upper deck seat I would take the BA NCW seat over the LX seat. However, there are some nice quiet seats (4A and 4K) on the A330-300 for solo travelers and I would recommend it as LX are offering stellar fares to many destinations and ZRH is a breeze to connect through.

Now, on LX there is a major difference on the First product as compared to the Business offer. I was very impressed with the new product. The seat included a 23” monitor, and you have the choice to feel “included” or “secluded”. I managed 2 hours of sleep on the day flight after indulging in the F&B service. LX provided a better meal than BA First. In this aspect, I would not hesitate to pick LX over BA. However, I can get ARN-JFK on LX for around £1200 return, and First would be £3600…. The leap from Y to C is greater than C to F, so I wouldn’t spend the extra money. I agree with previous posters that C today provide stellar experience and F is not justified in many cases. I am trying to pick up more BA NCW trips later in the year so I can really test this out. I have a JNB run coming in April. However, LX will move to position 1 with the new product and their excellent fares ex.ARN.

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Senator

Thanks for sharing, very interesting read.

I know what you mean about the 'cocoon' effect :-) I like NCW, but my equivalent of the 'cocoon' is stepping over or being stepped over, unless you get 62K upstairs or an equivalent.

Perhaps a better comparison is the 777 versus the 333? the 777 is 8 across, versus the 4 across in the upper deck of the 744.

Nonetheless, these seats are so comfortable that one feels to be nit picking.

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Expat,

I suspect the bar will be raised again among European carriers when LH announces their A380 and B747-800 (if it actually will be produced) layouts. From sources inside of LH, I heard that F will go from 16 (upper deck on B747 today) to eight seats in the front and a new business product will be introduced as well. Given AF lack of investment in new products at the A380 launch, I suspect LH (the best run European airline) will take the lead.

LH launch is scheduled for this spring.

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I'll be in bmi's J class to the middle east next week.

Having never tried it before, it will be interesting to see how it is.

It looks good on paper, will post some thoughts the week after next.

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Thanks Expat, I couldn't have said it better myself. There is no other word to describe what I think if NCW and I'm terribly sorry if that offended anyone!

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Oh and by the way VK, I find it a bit rich of you to criticise my use of the word "hate" in the context of what I think of BA NCW when you, not so long ago, in another forum, sarcastically referred to the Daily Mail as the "Daily Hate" (The Truth About BASSA - 17/12/10 00:02 GMT). Do I detect a bit of hypocrisy here? Mmmm!

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Senator, many thanks for a very informative post re LX versus BA. This has helped me make up my mind to try LX. On another small issue, I was at LHR T 5 heading off to GVA and asked 2 BA ground staff for directions to the F class lounge. They asked me if I was actually flying F and when I said no, they were both abrupt and made it clear "you have to fly F to use the lounge". My explaining I was a One World Emerald made no difference....poor attitude ! I eventually found my way there and was granted admission based on my One World Emerald status (CX Diamond).

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I know what you mean, they can be so snotty. It really bugs me that every time you approach either the First Class check-in area or the Concorde Room, the question you get asked is: "Are you flying First today". Well I wouldn't be trying to gain access to the facilities if I wasn't. All they need to do is ask to see your boarding pass/flight confirmation and not treat you like someone who is trying to freeload. It really bugs me. I'm sure if an A list celebrity fronts up, they don't ask them if they're flying First, so they shouldn't ask anyone else.

And HKG, your complaint shows that their training is inadequate. Same with the call centre operators, the rubbish I get fed over the phone sometimes, things that are simply wrong, it happens a lot. On more than one occasion I've read them their own rules over the phone. Lounge access, they should all know that off the top of their heads.

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I am myself looking forward to sampling the new Swiss F next month.

Swiss looks to be very good product. As does BA's new First cabin. It is difficult to compare BA's old cabin with Swiss's new cabin, and Swiss's limited route network.

However, using Swiss does mean connecting in Zurich, and not everyone has either the time or the inclination to do that.

The direct BA network, exLHR, remains unrivalled.

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FCT - You are so right. Poor training and odd attitude towards the people whose custom pays their salary.

VK - have you ever tried CX F class out of LHR ? 9 beds in the front of the 747 where BA cram in 12 ? As our resident BA Corporate Communications Director can you enlighten us as to BA's policy regarding toilets ? Do the cabin crew give them any attention during a long haul flight ?

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I look forward to flying Cathay from LHR direct to a wide variety of destinations...oh, they only fly direct to HKG. Oops.

Please...

This forum is about business travel.

It is not about me.

I have no connection whatsoever with BA, and comments like that might suggest to the casual reader that I do.

Please can we de-personalise the debate and focus on the issues and not those individuals who are posting their personal views..

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BA actually have 14 seats in their First in Zone A on a 747 - five on either side by the windows, and two pairs of seats in the middle. Note Air NZ have 14 business class seats in the same zone, so BA are no longer competitive based on number of seats in the same zone (and square foot area). Cathay are down to nine suites in the same zone, which is superb. It is spacious, tranquil and relaxing without feeling like you're a shut-in. And of course the CX service is second to none, in my opinion. I have a choice on LON-HKG (and onward to a range of regional destinations no longer served by BA like SEL, MNL and TPE), CX is always top of my list. Care, attention to detail, quality on board product and F&B, priority at all times, gentle cosseting that takes the edge off travel. I used to have this on BA, but sadly the bean-counters seem to have countenanced much of what made BA superb in the past. But VK is right, the BA long-haul network is superb, and I for one would like to thank him publicly for his input into this site, and for sticking up for a carrier he clearly enjoys, per chance even loves.

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It is unfair to claim CX only offers service to HKG, given that BA's service to Sydney is one stop, CX also offers one stop service to Australia, just different flight numbers. The essential difference between a single flight number on BA, QF and VS from LHR-SYD and changing flights on SQ, CX and others is insignificant.

Flying F from LHR-SYD offers a wide variety of choices, and dare I say that EK, EY, SQ, CX and QF all give BA a run for customers' money. All that BA's new product will do, especially given departure from T3 not T5, is bring it up to par with some of those.

Don't get me wrong I welcome it, but it is more a refresh of a tired hard product, perhaps to await the A380 which will offer greater possibilities. However, BA's biggest competitor (given route network) on key long haul routes up the front is VS and it is hardly in a position to do a serious product refresh given its financial position.

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I don't know why BA didn't just bite the bullet on this, I mean the number of seats in First and therefore, the amount of space. From my experience, and of course I have no other basis to say this, but it seems so often that when I check-in online 12-24 hours before a flight, there are many empty seats in First. Mysteriously, when I board, it's full. This happens so often and indicates to me that they use it as an overflow for business or complimentary upgrades. I'd love to know what their true revenue generating load factor (if that's the right term).

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"Note Air NZ have 14 business class seats in the same zone, so BA are no longer competitive based on number of seats in the same zone (and square foot area)"

That's not quite fair - looking at seat plan, there is a strange triangle shape in the middle where they clearly cant fit another row of seats. What does that triangle represent?

But the reality is - on a ANZ seat you have less personal space by virtue of the eggbox you sleep in. 7 people alongide each wall, versus 5 in First.

Less people clearly better - so I aggree it would seem the CX layout is better. But with only 9 seats, what's mileage availability like?

I'd wager most of us on here see First as a FF perk. There is no point in demanding it become so super-lux that either only full-fare revenue pax can afford it, or it only appears on a few high demand routes. That's what happened to SQ First.

Personally I'd like to see a bit of balance so it is available on the majority of long-haul routes, and there is a resonable chance of mileage availablity, or the occasional good value sale price.

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Moderators.

I see you have deleted my tongue in cheek post, pointing out Vintage Krug's spin on Cathay Pacific and BA.

If that is the way you wish to play it, it's your bat and ball.

I won't be back.

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Sorry to lose Expat_C and hope you will be back. The Moderators have a tough time as it is but we do value your comments EC. VK too, whilst being blatantly biased towards BA and sometimes ill mannered, is a valuable soursce of information particularly on BA. The more views and coments exchanged the better ! I have learnt a great deal on this thread about LX and EK and will try both carriers in the near future.

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Why is it that 'The Moderators' show a bias towards VK while censoring Expat and Hess?

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I saw the post before it was deleted - it was provocative and accusatory, It was the right thing to remove it. Some seem to get wound up easily and perhaps post without thinking of the consequences. Thats the role of a moderator, to nip things in the bud before it gets out of hand.

Now lets get back to the subject before this deteriorates into another debate about VK again. There seems to be a small possy who'd like to turn pretty much any topic relating to BA into an anti-VK personality cult.

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This is the most popular forum on BT and probably one of the most important so let's all stop bickering. What I would like to see is a nice clean debate and I think we could ALL make an effort to keep everything else out. I personally value EVERYONE's opinion here but at the same time, I don't like to come on here to have my typos pointed out or to be criticised by some people for using words that they themselves see fit to use on other forums. And neither is all this speculation about who the participants are or who they represent very constructive. Some may have very strong opinions but I have never felt that anyone was outright biased. Let's all make an effort to get along hey guys. Expat, it would be nice if you reconsidered. Let's all move on.

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I quite agree...with FCT.To take things a bit further, the balanced opinions of people like Expat are essential to counter the, sometimes, wildly hyperbolic and, dare I say, sycophantic postings of other posters. Maybe we should start a new thread, "Come Back Expat"?:o)

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Quite so. Its been a while since we were reminded of his canceled flights to Malta.

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I have a suggestion. Here we are describing each other's experiences on various airlines' FC and BC cabins in words. Let's start taking pictures that we can share.

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From BA.com... (links at bottom)

Introducing the new First suite and cabin, we invite you to discover an enhanced experience onboard British Airways.

Taking on our customers’ feedback, we’ve designed an elegant and stylish environment featuring thoughtful and practical touches, such as unique personal windows, seats that are 60% wider at the shoulder and your own wardrobe. The distinctive lighting system is designed to recreate the subtlety of natural light throughout the day to help you feel at home when working, dining or simply relaxing.

Settle back, relax and let our First entertainment system take you to the movies, play games or catch up with a favourite artist. With a 15–inch screen and noise–cancelling headset, you can choose from over 100 movies, a selection of TV programmes, over 50 music CDs and audio books as well as 20 interactive games. Or, if you prefer to relax with pictures, movies or music of your own, or need to charge your laptop, simply plug in your iPod via USB or RCA jack for a wider screen experience.

There’s something for everyone, every mood and taste and of course you can play, pause, or rewind to fit your own schedule.

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/first-seating/public/en_gb

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/first-entertainment/public/en_gb

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I hope Expat Consultant would consider to come back and just ignored VK ! The world does NOT turn around because of him, her or IT ! I do am getting excited --especially after seeing ANZnew innovative approaches to Prem Y and Y cabins--I hope BA new F will impress me as well--make me say "wow"--I have commented frankly and daring over the possible new F cabin in the past--just want to experience a great product where all BA fans would really appreciate what all those PR geeks in Waterside have though over and now will present us in the coming months. BA just don't disappoint us...badly !

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The following has also been sent out by BA's Executive Club today:

'You will soon be one of the first people in the world to see our new First cabin and suite.

From 1927 when we introduced the first luxury air service, to 1995 when we fitted the first fully flat beds, our dedication and innovative approach to evolving air travel means we have a lot to live up to.

Over the last few years we’ve spent time perfecting the design of the new First. We've drawn on British heritage, sought out exceptional craftsmanship, and minutely considered every single detail. Details that, as a traveller in First, we think you'll appreciate.

For instance, we discovered the uniforms of senior Royal Navy Officers are made on Savile Row from a fabric called Naval Barathea, which is deep blue-black. This inspired our new colour scheme. Combined with accents of rich cream leather and dark red glass, it's a modern, sophisticated take on our classic red, white and blue.

The fully flat seat, shown in the background here, is another example. Its double stitched leather upholstery would feel at home in the world's most prestigious motor cars. On closer inspection the complex twin stitch pattern demonstrates hours of exceptional craftsmanship.

Of course, looks aren't everything. That's why we've been enhancing the service too - and will continue to do so in order to ensure you have a unique experience when travelling in First.

I'll be in touch soon to let you know how you can view the new suite first hand. If you'd like to find out more in the meantime, please visit ba.com/first.'

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Had my email today....bit of a tease ....refers you to a web link with yet more teasing and not a lot of detail. Seat (what you see of it) looks classy and up market...

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/first-seating/public/en_gb

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Yes, I got the email earlier today. Unless I'm not navigating the web site correctly the only picture of the cabin is a rather pathetic view of the seat back (see http://www.britishairways.com/travel/first-seating/public/en_gb). Doesn't really give the impression that BA want you to see what they have to offer when you compare to other airline websites which give a very clear view of the seating in First class.

Before anyone thinks I'm a BA basher, let me say that I do generally have quite a positive view of BA having been a Gold or Silver Exec club member since it first started (actually when I first joined in 1988 there was just one level and you simply paid about £80 to join if I remember correctly - hands up who else remembers that?) However, I must agree with all the above posts that the new cabin is hopeless compared to the suites offered on other airlines. My most recent First experience was on the short Cairo/London hop and SanFrancisco before that. To be honest, apart from the food being served on china plates, I don't think it is that much better than club. Also, to be honest, I prefer the old Concorder lounge with the help yourself buffet. The food in the new one is not as good as Virgin's business lounge at Heathrow and they don't do the nice canapes anymore. Oh and one final gripe, you get no preference in the Spa. So quite often it is booked up and despite paying a fortune for First you get nothing ! Think BA need to rethink that one ?

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I agree. This email is pathetic. I think the marketing people at BA should be sacked. They obviously have no clue who they are speaking to. Frankly, I couldn't care less about the fact that the fabric colour was inspired by navy uniforms and what the stitch is like. If they weren't one year late in launching this product, perhaps I wouldn't mind this little teaser but they are just making fools of themselves and looking stupid.

Just give us what we have been asking for, a proper look at the seat please. It's almost as if they're embarrassed to, not surprised actually, they probably are. And so true what you say about the Spa, I have travelled First from T5 almost on a monthly basis at least since it opened and I have only ever been able to get one treatment. It is always booked up so what's the point. Every time I transit or leave from Dubai on EK, no problem. And the Etihad Six Senses Spa in Abu Dhabi is excellent, and always available. Shame on you BA, you're losing it.

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Doesn't Saatchi have the advertising contract for BA? I wonder how much he gets paid?Maybe the money would have been spent more wisely on other things eh?

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I have to say that I too was disappointed by the email and the link does not give much away either.

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BBH does BA advertising, and I doubt their work gets as low level as a member's email. Saatchi & Saatchi haven’t done BA for over 15 years, M&C Saatchi had the work in between.

This is a teaser. While we might have been going on (and on) about it on this thread since May, this is only the 2nd communication. They have set up the soft enhancement, now they are 'about' to reveal the hard.

Each to his own. Personally I thought it was quite interesting. Depth of design is always of more interest and substance - and will stand the test of time. A seat is a seat is a seat in this market. It will be plenty big enough, and won’t have sliding doors. What more is there to say? Cabin ambience will be everything though and be a major differentiator. BA’s vision of First is about attention to detail. I get it – and I applaud it.

FC - why are you so angry about this? Your numerous posts in this thread - so you obviously care - are full of very emotive (but generally pejorative and highly critical) phrases and words. Often it’s the same 2 basic points about perceived lateness of delivery and how hopeless BA are compared to middle and far east alternatives. What's going on - I'm confused? I’m not a big fan of Emirates. In fact I hate Emirates. But I’ve moved on. I don’t spend my time stalking their forums and threads regurgitating my story of how I was badly let down on a trip to Australia. Perhaps you need to move on too?

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Does the Exec Club email contain any pictures other than those at ba.com to give an idea of the footprint of the suite? - I'm just a lowly blue member and they obviously don't think I could afford to fly First as I haven't been sent said email.

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No - it showed a cut away showing the hand stiching on the seat - a bit like you get on a luxury car. The sign off is:

"I'll be in touch soon to let you know how you can view the new suite first hand. If you'd like to find out more in the meantime, please visit ba.com/first"

Which i guess implies either some sort of reception, or a reveal of where the first couple of planes will be deployed so we can book a flight. And of course a full reveal on the web-site. Remember the stand-alone micro-site that supported the New Club World launch? Could be something like that.

Have to say I'm surprised the BA cynics have turned on marketing now. While BA might have some faults, gnerally the quality of their marcoms ranges from the good to the inspiraitonal.

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Emotive?? Angry?? Perhaps GoonerLondon should read his own entry. The points made earlier today seem to have fallen on deaf ears.

This is getting a bit tedious. If you criticise BA, you get accused of being emotive and angry and told to move on, if you applaud BA, then you're accused of being secretly planted by the PR department and biased. What would be the point of this forum if all we gave is a few bland comments and just take whatever comes from BA Marketing at face value? Isn't funny that nobody came on this forum today to say how wonderful BA's announcement and what a brilliant piece of marketing. Well if anyone does, please raise your hand!

If anyone here doesn't like the debate or the strong opinions, then THEY should move on. I will stay because I have a stake in BA in two ways: a) I spend a large amount of money flying First on this airline year after year and I am part of a segment of customers who accounts for a large portion of their revenue and b) I am a shareholder in BA and not just the one share that gives me a discount. You may well ask why I continue to fly BA if I think so little of their product? I've said this before, I don't east of London but what other choice is there to North America? Perhaps when we have other F products such as EK, LX, CX, QF, etc on routes from London to NA, I won't feel the need to and might feel less inclined to give my opinion. Perhaps I just won't care. But in the meantime, I do and will continue to give my opinion in the same way as I always do.

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Golly, still a lot of anger there.....

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What is it with you people? Get a life!

Bad attitude.

Moderators, if you wish to delete his comment, go ahead, I won't be offended.

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Calm down dear(s), its only a bit of marketing and first class!

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FC--just ignored VK--he just lives in this forum 'cause he gets attention from others--so just don't care over it and as you say--you can give your comment as you feel--so why bother over such users or comments You know VK is under protection of some BT moderators regarding his comments here. So I really do not care anymore--what BT delete or not. Just express your own comments and just skip those which you think is just superfluous "garbage".

Back to BA F- regarding this BA F Info from BA --for me it is just useless information--what a glimpse ?

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Actually, let me rephrase my post. VK, it is quite unfortunate and telling actually that all you can add to this discussion is a comment like that. Others have described them much better than I can. Hess you are so right.

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Well done FCT and Hess for nailing the hypocrissy of some of the posters and for drawing attention to the favouritism that the moderators show to these posters.

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Firstly with regard to VintageKrug's last posting a simple "Gosh" would have sufficed. Secondly I don't think routing issues should be used as an excuse to justify lower standards of service in First Class and as soon as an "open skies" policy is achieved the better off the travelling public will be.

BA is not the worst First Class Service but it is nowhere near the best and unless the new fit-out represents a quantum step forward then I doubt BA's committment to First

From what I have seen the business seats in Singapore Airlines business Class on their A380 are virtually meet the current First Class standard and this makes it difficult for me to justify paying the USD4000,00 premium surcharge for a suite On the other hand the Suite concept is what a btru first class should be..

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Chaps, how about keeping these posts an exchange of our knowledge about the FACTS relating to the First class service offered by various airlines. Personally I couldn't careless if a certain person posting to this formum is or is not an employee of BA. In fact I think it would be good if they were so that these comments will more likley get back to BA. Here are some facts as I see them -

1) In my opinion, the new Concorde lounge is not as good as the old one in T4 {in fact I think the Virgin Upper class lounge is better} 2) It is not acceptable that people travelling 1st class get no preference for Spa services 3) The new Spa service is not half as good as the service that was provided when BA used Moulton Brown (like proper back massage with oils not in a chair through your shirt !) 4) Another one that bugs me is lack of a proper preferential boarding provision for 1st. The US airlines are a good model to follow here with their very strict boarding system they use in the US (zone 1, 2 , 3 etc..) 5) Food - it's nice sure, but not really my impression of top premium ! 6) Open vs. suite - I guess that's a personal preference

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OK: a good challenge, some thoughts from my perspective (though I don’t think we are saying anything new now on this thread. Maybe the moderator should put us out of our misery and close this now!)

I generally agree that BA does not lead in any single area of First:

Ground handling: LH leads the way here with a private terminal, which only proper 1st class fliers can access (and 'Uber" FF). The Concorde lounge is very good too - but as others have noted, it can get busy, and you are still queuing with everyone else through security and to get on the plane. As for the Spa - I think this is personal taste. I don’t really want or need a sloppy oil experience, and thought the ‘chair’ was both innovative and did the job.

Cabin Environment: Personally I like space, and don’t need to be in my own private 'box'. Yes I know this is pejorative, no - I'm not knocking those that have cabins for the sake of it 'cause BA doesn’t – it’s just not my taste. Clearly less people is better though, and here probably CX/SQ would get the nod. I don’t think loads of gold trimmings and mirrors and gadgets make for a nice environment, Less is more here, and attention to detail in the way things are put together will make a genuinely different feel. I hope BA Get this right

Seat: I think this is a zero sum discussion, Its not like Business class where there are so many ways to squeeze flat beds into the space available. Generally most leading providers give a seat that’s both as broad and wide as anyone needs, I don’t want to sit next to anyone, unless I happen to be flying with someone. So the choice is good.

Food: Its airline food. I don’t think it needs to be defined by luxury ingredients - my favourite meal recently was the chicken pudding. It was food I wanted to eat rather than food I wanted to be impressed by. If it’s the latter you are after then you need an airline that delivers lobster and caviar on every flight, which isn’t BA.

Wine: Again - i don't think 'named' champagne equals the best quality. Krug, DP and Crystal are all very well, but its bit 'bling' to think that is what First class should always serve. There are better. BA gets this right. Again though - if you want names - fly another carrier

Service is about attention to detail and understanding what is needed, This is the one area which BA can lead and often does. Attentive and anticipatory, but not subservient.

As I’ve said - there is a balance to be struck here. Affordability and access versus premium. I dint think aiming for 'the best you can possibly have' is appropriate, either for these times, or indeed because of the price implications, or the ability to access First with mileage. Clearly if money is no object - you wont be flying commercial, no matter how good it is!

So while BA doesn’t stand out in any of these areas (except perhaps service) - it is reasonably consistent as the world's most 'popular' (measured by customer numbers) intercontinental first class service. When you bring all these things together I think BA provides something which is more than the some of its parts (rare in this world) – and its approach for the new First suggests this is the ongoing focus. Not to blow our minds with one particular feature – but a quietly confident approach that does all things really well, on the majority of routes I want to fly, and from London. That’s why I fly BA - and First when I'm lucky enough to be able to.

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GoonerLondon - Well written post and you have captured the key elements. Frankly, I fly F on all my longhaul flights and fares have become dearer and dearer as the years go bye. Back end there are special offers but at the front end the carriers know they can squeeze the premium passngers and they do. This is why, a forum like this is so valuable. Facts, information and experiences help us to identify the best prodict and best value for our money.

BA are around 30% (or threabouts) cheaper than CX in F on the HKG/LHR route and that is a significant difference. Why do I not take the special offer ? Simply put, BA's current F product does not begin to compare to CX's F class bed/suite etc.

The same thing will happen if BA's new F class does not compete on product. Sure, they may again offer deep discounts whch may wean over J class passengers from other airlines but not F class custom.

CX's overall standards appear to have fallen but the kit is good and the F class hardware the best on a 747 !

I was a great BA fan back in the mid 90s when they introduced the first flat bed in jet travel but they have steadily gone downhill. An airline just has to invest capital in their equipment. Cabin, seats, that is what counts the most.

I am still going to try the new BA F when it arrives on the HKG/LHR route but only once unless.......

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I agree GoonerLondon. Some well made points. You sound like the perfect, down to earth, customer that makes the job a pleasure. Yes, the price of the ticket deserves the best, but its all about substance. The bling and gimmicks are just gravy. Stick to the basics of skilled service and ensuring the customer leaves the aircraft feeling as good as possible, this is the key.

To FCTraveller, please don't take offence at the lounge staff. Unfortunately, if there is something we see umpteen times, it is people 'trying it on' both in the airport and on the aircraft, the 'worth a try' crowd who will fib through their teeth to get something they are not entitled to and if there is something that rattles other customers, rightly so in my mind, its seeing those not entitled enjoying the same privileges as those who are. There is a pattern to this behaviour, different nationalities are more prone to this than others....but we wont go there for now. But, maybe they could use a different greeting as you mentioned, I'll pass it on.

The new F seat, sworn to secrecy, it is smart, sleek & I think it will go down well, fitting in with the way of thinking of GoonerLondon's post. It wont blow your mind, thats not the intention, Im sure the majority will approve. There will always be some folk who can never be satisfied ("THERE IS NOT ENOUGH SPACE TO STOW MY WOODEN LEG, ITS A DISGRACE, I'M NEVER FLYING BA EVER AGAIN") plus of course, the British mentality is to hunt out the negativity in everything, but by focusing on the positives it may be a success.

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"You sound like the perfect, down to earth, customer that makes the job a pleasure". What a nice thing to say - thank you. And I hope I am!

I'm not sure there is a better quesiton than 'Are you travelling First Class today?" I've answered no - but I have a gold card, and they are very welcoming,

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Most welcome, its a refreshing change to read an opinion that, if was read by every premium customer, would make THEIR journey more enjoyable by putting things into perspective. Far from being a brown noser, just hopefully others will read your post again. (Even though Im sure I can sense an Arsenal supporter somewhere around here!)

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The new First seat will be displayed to the travelling public in the lounge lobby of the T5 Galleries complex shortly. The official launch date is scheduled to be February 11, which is oddly the day after the Business Travel Show in London ends....

www.terminal5.ba.com/en/

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Can't wait to see it with my own eyes and experience it--going to scrutinize it and let us see where this new F cabin really belongs to-- good solid product or just waste of time and money !! Could it stand the comparison to EK, EY, LH, SQ, CX or QF--or as others would say--you can't compare it to those mentioned before--as these products evolved from their previous F class products, while BA has only done a "face lifting"

The real and hard paying pax are the judges !! So let it be !

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Absolutely. It is the pax who will be using the seats, they who have the experiences of past products and those offered by other carriers. I know they development team have listened to what the customers want and do not want. For example, the whole "private cocoon with sliding door" thing, fanfared by SQ proved unpopular and unattractive to BA's customers. The layout of the current cabin, with more modern features was deemed to way forward. Of course, the unpleasables will find faults, "the colour of the upholstery doesnt match toys I just threw out of my pram because we are running late even though I know its not the airline's fault I'm just too involved in my world to see it" and other grumbles that are just not worth listening to, however constructive criticism will be taken aboard and acted on as this is an important step for BA.

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In my view they need to get the ground service right as well as touching up the cabin. Why spend thousands on a ticket to still get crammed on a bus at many airports with all other passengers and then wait 15 mins at the bottom of the steps cos the crew aren't ready for you? one extra bus for F pax surely can't cost BA too much. At the moment the ground service is a major let down in the BA F experience.

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Once T5C is "live" the bussing issue will reduce in absolute terms, and that will free up additional busses for alternative deployment.

Let's hope the penny drops and premium busses for F pax are introduced.

I'm afraid, rather like priority baggage and fast track, passenger segregation rather goes against the often socialist principles of many of those who work at LHR, even though this would actually mean more work for them. Not acceptable, but there you have it.

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VK,

Odd that a nation that historically over the last five decades have been politically left leaning (read Germany) can produce such a differentiated First Class ground experience through Lufthansa? I normally agree with many of your points VK, but the BA First ground experience lacks innovation and imagination. Perhaps BA did not push BAA hard enough during T5 development to create a different experience?

The “left-leaning” Germans have showed the way how to provide excellent ground experience for premium pax, and now AF has followed suit with a new lounge and direct transfers through dedicated cars if aircraft is parked at remote stand. The same happens in ZRH with LX, so BA is the only European airline with a First Cabin without a dedicated First Class boarding experience for remote gates. However, once again this could be down to BAA as much as BA to enable this.

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Very true. And I agree BA did not push BAA hard enough on T5. Don't get me wrong, I still think T5 is one of the best air terminals in the world but my biggest disappointment when I used it the first time was that they had done away with the T1/Zone R concept of First check-in desks with direct access to security and through to airside. As it stands, you have to walk all the way down to the far end of T5 to the F check-in and then walk back to security where, as we all know, Fast Track is not that fast. It's almost an attitude of "Why should F passengers be treated any differently on the ground". Well because they pay more!

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I think there are issues which need resolving on both sides; I know there is yet another focus group happening at BA shortly to attempt to resolve the ground handling issues. I have already set out my concerns to them, including bussing, very clearly.

Really, it is not hard to see what could be improved, as there are plenty of suggestions, most of which would be more procedural changes rather than actual cost items. This leads me to believe the issues are not cost-based, but management/labour/BAA issues. Most such suggestions are available publicly.

But, aside from bussing (which is far from the norm, and in most cases you are straight off the plane and into the terminal), and the Fast Track issues which occur intermittently, the Ground experience is not that bad.

White Door, Concorde Room, Private Cabana, Boardroom featuring Concorde Seats, Pre-Flight Dining, Quintessentially Concierge (though I have yet to find a use for them), Elemis Spa, plenty of Vintage fizz usually relax me enough pre-flight to enjoy the experience.

Post landing the baggage storage, Arrivals Lounge, Concorde Private Dining Room, Infinity Bath Arrivals Suites, Elemis Spa treatment and plenty of mags and newspapers usually set me up well for the day.

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A key difference between T5 and FRA, CDG and other airports mentioned here is that T5 is owned and operated by BAA who appear to have changed their articles of association from 'operator of airport terminals' to 'operators of shopping malls that can conveniently accept the loading and unloading of aircraft'.

Having a separate F bus at Gate A10 would be a simple solution and one where the lack falls squarely at BA's door.

I wonder however, if F passengers were driven directly from the Concorde lounge (having already bypassed the shops via the magic door) to the aircraft, just how much BAA would want as a one-off payment and per passenger.

BAA would see it as lucrative high spending passengers escaping the clutches of it's mall and would want adequate compensation.

Perhaps it's BA not being on the ball, perhaps it's simple arithmetic that makes it impossible. Either way, BA will loose out to people willing to fly via ZRH and FRA.

Perhaps there is a third way acceptable to all?

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Silverjet had the answer! Check-in started with coffee or bubbly in the lounge, bags taken from your car for you.

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VintageKrug, I don't consider myself to be excessively fussy but I think you are easily pleased. To pick up on 2 specific points. 1) The Spa - more than 50% of the time I haven't been able to get a treatment in the time available. There is no preference given to 1st passengers. Also the current spa provider is not as good as the previous one (Moulton Brown I think), obviously a cost saving ! 2) A big point for me is boarding. As mentioned by others, you often get no preference. In the US most major airlines have a very good "zone" system. You get a zone number printed on your boarding card and they board very strictly by zone. So obviously, 1st class goes first, then top frequent flyers etc. etc... works well in the US and everyone seems to be happy to observe it. When they call zone 1, you don't get a rush of other people trying to push on come what may. At the end of the day, it's not about "class" - it's quite simply he who spends most with the airline gets the best treatment. Getting a bit political now but that seems like a very egalitarian principle to me! There are not many things I'd like to copy from the US but this is certainly one. Surely all you other frequent flyers have experienced this in the US, it's great. They also respect partner FF's. I've been flying domestic coach and still got in "zone 1" due to my FF status with a partner airline. We are hopeless at this in UK & Europe. Please if someone from BA is reading this, tell me why BA can't do this ?

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BA does do priority boarding at T5. I am amazed you haven't eperienced it???

I always get priority boarding if at a stand, this was a policy which was sometimes patchy but was newly re-enforced from late last year.

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I can't think of an occasion where I've flown from T5 where priority boarding for F/J passengers hasn't been done. Its certainly a lot better than the free for all which operated at T4 on occasions!

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p.s - does anyone know when the first plane will leave Cardiff and which route it will be on? I see that it was mentioned earlier that 11th Feb could be the date (I am flying out of LHR - IAD in F on a 777!) - surely I can't be that lucky ......

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I think 11 Feb is press launch etc.

Wouldn't expect to see it for pax for a few weeks yet...

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Apologies, to clarify. I was refering more to the general global experience. Coming back from Cairo recently in 1st it was a general free for all. Life does extend beyond T5 ! Plus my point extends more generally. For example, I fly from Newcastle down to LHR. Even on a 1st ticket I get no preference boarding in Newcastle. In the US, even on single class flights they have phased boarding acording to FF status and if you are on say a fully flexible ticket vs. a cheap one. This is a great system, so I say again the people who spend the most get the best treatment. I don't see why BA can't do the same ?

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Does anyone look at these from their mobiles! Takes ages to scroll down. May I suggest to whoever at Business Traveller that moderates these sites that replies should be listed with the newest first and the oldest at the end. Seems logical I think?

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It is all very well having a multi-million pound shiny new seat and all the toys, but I bet the wardrobe doors (B747) will still be slammed shut, the overhead lockers will still slam shut, the galley cupboard doors will still slam shut...and the crew in the galley will still chatter loudly all night while I am trying to sleep in my very expensive seat!! Noisier still is the Club World section on the B777. They seem to have chosen the noisiest slamming doors, in the Club galley. Other airlines have crews that are considerate towards their customers!

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NCL is a notorious distaster when is comes to preferential boarding; they just will not offer it and that is down to the local management. I complained vigourously on this matter when I last experienced that in May last year.

The lounge is lovely, for an outstation, though.

At most other UK destination, my recent experience is that I do find priority Boarding is offered (EDI, MAN).

The First refit is the whole cabin, including the storage bins, and silence is one of the key innovations...

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I wonder if there is any correlation between the well appointed NCL lounge and the BA offices in the same city ;-)

With the divide between F and C seating being paper thin at the moment, the ground service makes a huge difference and until BA can sort this out, many will stay away.

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The scale and appointments of the NCL lounge reflects only the level of traffic for which it was designed to cater.

The route network from Newcastle formerly included Aberdeen, Bristol, London Heathrow, London Gatwick - and possibly a handful of others.

As staff travel does not (I believe) provide for lounge access, there would be no reason whatsoever for the presence of the call centre to have any bearing on the size of the facility.

Indeed, it's not actually all that special - it's no Galleries, for instance - it's just rather more substantial than one might expect for the current number of daily flights, and significantly better than the Servisair lounge (which EK and KL amongst others contract). It offers a comprehensive bar and continental breakfast, sandwiches or afternoon tea depending on the time of day. The seating is comfortable and the (Swissport) staff are very personable.

Biggless is quite right though that, despite the presence of Fast Track security for Gold and Silver card holders, and the acceptance of onward Club and First boarding passes as authority to enter the lounge, statusless BA passengers commencing a Club or First itinerary from Newcastle do not have access to Fast Track.

This is anomalous and the fact that it affects relatively few people also suggests that it would cost BA a commensurately small sum to include them in the categories of Fast Track-authorised passengers.

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I find that when racing to catch a connecting flight when the arrival monitors indicate that boarding is taking place, only to find on reaching the gate that the flight has been delayed, the opportunity to use airline lounges just does not exist.

Another issue that irritates me is that luggage marked priority rarely receives that treatment. However I do welcome the practice that some baggage handling centres have introduced of ensuring that the baggage stickers on the luggage match those given to the passenger.

A fond memory is being directed to the express lane; only to find that one of the X-Ray machines had broken down and as a consequence considerable delays were experienced and I had paid for this additional felicity.

As a result I can't be bothered anymore with the slovenly attitudes prevalent at airports and just expect the worst.

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Just a comment on the Elemis Spa again, in my experience, you don't stand a chance 90% of the time. I flew out of T5 yesterday and did manage to get in, only because someone didn't show. But what I did notice was the fact that the Spa at the B gates has 4 or 5 treatment booths, but they only had one therapist on duty so there's your answer! They'll go to town on promoting the service but the problem is they won't spend the money to actually provide it.

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From the BA Investor website...

"We continue to invest in new products for our customers. Next week, our new First class cabin takes to the skies onboard a Boeing 777 flying to New York JFK. The investment in First this spring strengthens our progress towards being the leading global premium airline."

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quick question do F passengers get a better service at the T5 arrivals lounge or is it the same service for everyone?

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Regarding priority boarding: I cannot remember having experienced that any time I have flown OSL - LHR, LHR - OSL. But I don't really care, I have no rush when I am in line, I know they won't leave without me, and I have my assigned seat so...

Regarding boarding announcements: This does not only apply to BA, I have experienced this with other airlines as well, in particular SK. Seems there is a change of attitude among the airlines to make sure they depart on time. I remember once I ran for the gate, the monitors showing gate closing (and this was about half an hour before scheduled departure for a intra european flight). When I got to the gate they had not even started boarding... But I think this is something we pax can blame ourselves for. I have often experienced we have been delayed, and eventually someone has gotten on board and we left immediately. If all people respected schedules, this would not be an issue.

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F passengers are able to use the Concorde Breakfast Room which is located within the main arrivals lounge. It's rather like a small restaurant within a larger restaurant. Samll, quiet and very exclusive. Extensive breakfast menu and tabel service. TV with news and lots of reading material. On a recent flight back from Miami I was the only one in there and did rather feel like a gold fish in a bowl. Shower facilities are the same for everyone. Small pods with dressing area and shower.

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RoadKing - the point for me on priority boarding with regards to long haul is just the relaxation factor. Having paid at least 10x more than at least 50% of the people on the plane I don't see why the airline can't arrange it for me to amble along from the lounge and just walk on board. As I keep saying, on US domestic flights, most US airlines operate a great system priority boarding system. For European short haul flights, the issue is overhead space. If you board towards the end, there is often no space left. I have even observed people putting bags in the overheads at the front even when they are sitting way back !

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The Sunday Times Travel Magazine reports that the official launch of the new BA First product will be 10th February with more details and pictures available then. Guessing BA are planning a big press launch on the 10th then.

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Biggless: Good points, I never have much carry on, so it has not been an issue. But you are right, if you pay 10 times as much, you deserve to be in the first of the line, not at the very end.

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I use MAN BA services all the time and they NEVER pre-board premiums. I asked an Aviance (now Servisair) gate agent why and he said that ''this is a domestic flight'...err yes... and he added that ''it would be unfair to the rest of the passengers''!!! Wonderful....

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He is obviously referring to those passengers who would actually be paying more for their tickets were it not for the fact that they are subsidised by premium passengers.

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The attitude of people like that Servisair agent really makes my blood boil. It's a shame the old Soviet Union isn't still around, I would love to ship people like that off to somewhere like that. The gate agents are acting on behalf of the airlines, it's BA's fault that we get treated like this. One exception in Europe is KLM in Amsterdam where sometimes (but not consistently) on short haul they will call first for Platinum card holders, then Gold etc.. BA take note - do you want to be beaten by KLM in any area of service ? (one other BA gripe - even if you only just miss the points for Gold Exec club they are never generous or take into account factors like say the previous year you had way over the needed points. This year I just missed the points to maintain my KLM Platinum card but they still renewed my Platinum)

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Aviance (servisair) Aberdeen were my best last week. Travelling to Manchester with BMI on an Embrear with those rather steep steps. I current hold the BMI Gold Card (even though now it’s black) and am currently sporting a cast on my left foot the size of a washing up bowl!! So while seated near the gate to try and get a head start on the stairs up to the aircraft so as not to cause others delay and keep my cast out of others way, the usual mêlée begins of crowding at the gate Area with lots of people standing.

Then comes the inevitable announcement – “BMI would like to invite passengers who may need extra time for boarding to come forward now” I hadn’t left my seat and the gate agent could only have taken a breath when comes. “Thank you for waiting the flight is now available for general boarding” So you can guess what happens next and the looks I get as I hold everyone up walking out mid crowd to the aircraft. Like many of us, the issue we have when travelling as often as we do is just the levels of inconsistency, it has to be the biggest single factor and is so evident but not to those who create it.

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"Dear continentalclub,

The first aircraft with our new cabin design will be taking off from London Heathrow very soon.

If you are travelling in First through London Heathrow Terminal 5, we would like to give you the opportunity to see the new suite for yourself.

It will be taking pride of place in the balcony area of the Concorde Room from 15th of February to 7th of March. You can examine every detail, try it out for size and, we hope, be thoroughly impressed.

We're gradually introducing the new cabin across our fleet and will keep you in touch with developments. So you can look forward to experiencing new First in the air, as well as on the ground.

Warm regards, Abigail Comber Head of Brands & Insights"

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First route will be LHR-JFK, this coming week.

I now "get" why the seat is how it is, and it's all rather innovative and exciting!!

BA First will turn our approach to flying First upside down.

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Hi...Not a good idea showing the new seat off on the Concorde Room balcony. It means that the only people to see it will be those who are travelling First that day. How about showing it to the people that matter...all the leisure and business passengers who MIGHT travel First who dont have access to the Concorde room. Make it more public.

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I too thought is was rather daft to only display it in the CCR initially, seemed rather "preaching to the choir".

The reasoning is that as it will take a while to roll out across the 90+ longhaul fleet, it is best not raise others' expectations too much initially, so the seat will be used to aid retention and target current F pax to start with.

Plus it will allow F pax to sit in and play with the seat, without it getting overly grubby or broken by the larger volumes of hoi polloi who might wish to sample it.

It will only be there for three weeks, and is then likely to be moved somewhere more public; personally I think stand in the landside area would enable both travellers and friends and relatives sample the seat, and once more widely available on board it might entice people to upgrade themselves at check-in.

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New seat, new rules. Just a quick heads-up here. As Club World regulars will know, "the floor area must be completely clear for take off and landing" (This was a requirement imposed by the CAA in order to obtain approval for the forward/rearward config and not the crew being petty or trying to prove who is in charge!)

With the new First suite, there will be a similar rule particularly for the area under the buddy seat - this is important - because it must be clear at ALL TIMES. There are various vents throughout the aircraft that, should the aircraft suffer a decompression, ensure the safe flow of the escaping air. If said vents are blocked the pressure difference can cause unsafe loads, affect the cabin floor and in a nutshell you may find yourself spending some time with baggage, cargo, stowaways and anything else that is below you. Because a decompression can happen at anytime , these vents must never be blocked. Some of these vents are under the buddy seats. There is plenty of stowage space in the new design so if you can comply with this new rule without the BBC Points of View Style "WHY oh WHY oh WHY...?" question it will be appreciated!

I say this tongue in cheek, with respect, nothing makes your crew want to pick up a passenger by the lapels, shake them and say "LOOK! Obviously, there is a reason I am asking you to do this so if you tut & roll your eyes at me again Ill bop you one" more than when we ask them to do something and it is questioned with a tone of annoyance. True, some things seem almost pointless, but the higher force of the CAA do send thier spies to check we are doing as they say, so bear with us as we try not to be sacked for slacking!

Anyway, back to the point... to prevent the "I didn't have to do it on my last flight" routine, from now on the "clear floor rule" will apply for both the current First seat and the new one.

If there are any other safety points that make you think "hmm, I wonder why?"... I'll happily try to answer for you. Note I say "safety points", without that word 'safety', I will be opening up myself to a bombardment of grumbles not seen the 'teething troubles' on the opening day of T5!

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Hi everyone !

Honestcrew thanks for the info--will remember it when a FA ask me to clear the buddy seat. But just let me raise this question-- isn't their any appropriate place for those vents beside under the buddy seats ?

By the way--BA don't need to turn my perspectives "upside down"-- the new First Class should just be the money worth paying for it and the supreme service which any F Class pax expect--nothing more and nothing less than that--straight forward and solid facts !!

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Hit the nail on the head there, just concentrate on empathy and not only dot the i 's and cross the t's, but go that little bit further, God knows the price deserves it. And good question Hess, but I assure you, if there was a better place for those vents, they would be there. You would not believe the huge amounts of 'can nots' when it comes to aircraft interior design. (And air travel in general - before someone else adds that!)

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I am very careful with my use of language, and the phraseology I used in my penultimate post in this thread is both purposeful and precise.

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So the vents are in their proper places...I do believe your statement that their could be a lot of " can nots" during the implementation of the aircraft interiors...Really HonestCrew...I just want to ..what did one of the users stated here:...."get" .why the seat is how it is, and it's all rather innovative and exciting.."--- honestly I would like to believe that I will experience such innovations and excitement--than I will frankly and fairly give BA its earned Laurels, if they really deserve it with this new product.

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Yes, it is all too easy to join the Self Appreciation Society, pat each other on the back and say job well done. However, the proof is in the pudding and in this case the padding as its very easy for me to, used to sitting on jumpseats, with all the comfort of a twenty five year old Land Rover Defender, to get excited over memory foam! The future is in the approval rating, honest feedback is required, but BA knows that is exactly what they will, rightly so, receive. Really looking forward to the different views of the folks on this forum. There are some good characters on here.

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I heard today that BA will debut new First on BA115 on 10th Feb (LHR-JFK) and then back again on BA182 (JFK-LHR) ? Does anyone know if thats true?

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BA117 on Wednesday 10th February will apparently be the debut flight, though natch this could change for operational reasons, so don't go buying a seat!

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Hi everyone !!

Talked with some BA cabin and cockpit crews over the possible launch on the 10th Feb. All ! looked clueless !-- are there still being ordered to keep their lips sealed ? Or is this just disinterest and probable anger of the previous battle with the" Waterside Upper Crust"...I will be a hypocrite, if I won't admit that I am excited to see and experience the new product. So who ever from the users here have the chance to try it as one of the first---do try it out extensively and report it here--we are all curious to know--what this fuss is all about !

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BA117 and 115 seem to have been cancelled tomorrow due to inclement weather...

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Not so much 'disinterest', just at this moment in time there as far more pressing issues in crew-land, so forgive them if they didn't seem to be full of enthusiasm. No question it is being welcomed by us, cabin enhancement improves our working environment..

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Today's BA297 to [not LAX, actually ORD] is now the debut flight, due to weather issues on the East Coast.

Departs 1525.

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Almost, it's BA297 to ORD

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We'll be posting more details on the new First launch around lunchtime today, and in advance of this we've created a new forum topic on the launch itself, as this thread has covered a wide range of issues (not all of them related to the subject in hand). The new topic can be seen at:

http://www.businesstraveller.com/discussion/topic/Launch-of-the-new-BA-First-seat

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IDEA.......Instead of the overhead lockers in BA F now being full of duvees, blankets etc, with the new regulation, leaving no space for hand baggage, a cheap option is to stretch a small detachable elastic net across the buddy seat to hold the bedding etc. This would keep everything in place during take-off and landing and could be detachable on one side if the buddy seat is to be used...cheap and simple answer to the problem!??

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Hess - why do I get the distinct feeling that unless its going to be some self-levitation system where you are held weightlessly for the duration of the flight, where enthusiastic angels drop lightly sautéed flakes of lobster into your open mouth, whilst you watch top films not even yet made - then you will not be that impressed.

Maybe you should hold your fire so you can put the boot in properly you know ;-)

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I did get that feeling too Gooner. View the seat with an open mind and Im sure you will like it.

The elastic net idea was considered during the design, plus the design of the new Club World seat, however like I mentioned before, the restrictions on cabin interior design are plentiful, plus need CAA approval. When it comes to restraining lose items, they are extremely fussy! Hence why your crew can seem fussy when preparing for take-off, just don't shoot the messengers!

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To confirm, details of the news seat have now been posted at:

http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/ba-first

and a new forum thread discussing the launch has been created at:

http://www.businesstraveller.com/discussion/topic/Launch-of-the-new-BA-First-seat

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Hi everyone !!

Gooner--it is your opinion to express what you think over someone or something-but don't think that your assumption over me is right-- I don't know you --so you don't know my way of flying. All that you have described were the opposite of how I am during my flights. I am happy if I get great food with good quality and without any ostentatious and superfluous things. I expect good qualitativ and healty food especially on long hauls. I leave it to those people who desperately need such shows and ego-boosters, who are so eager to eat huge amount of caviar and lobster as if there is no tomorrow---and thinking how decadent and elavated such F seats and foods are! Well--enjoy, if you need it--but not me ! I am not a fan of those who think to drink so much of those branded champagne because they happen to fly F class or be in F class lounges--decency and the right amount for pleasure is always the best and not abundance. I rarely watch films on board--as I use my time for sleeping( that is why a full flat bed is important) and work ! One important factor when flying premium class--a very good communication between FA or CSM and pax. Giving the feeling you are a welcomed guest and they are there for any help needed--and not hiding somewhere in the galleys or crew bunks. Guest relation--which is giving the pax the right feeling of attentiveness needed-- is for me the paramount of premium cabin experience. What would those food, films, drinks and seats in premium cabins help or do to me--if I am welcomed as the last "shit" ( sorry for the frank wordings) and get the feeling of being a burden !

It is nice to experience such F cabins like EK, EY etc. But I am fare and frankly enough to praise and fly oftenly a product which really deserves my money and time ! So like any product which is launched--it has to prove itself first. Not only because some people want it to be a success or an eager fan of BA--all should be terrible excited and be bedazzled in general. Let it to the paying pax to decide if it is really worth all these fuss.

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Once again, BA does not have FAs or CSMs.

You use of faecal references says a lot about you, and very little about BA's innovative new First product.

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Thanks VK !!

I just actually expected that you will jump again to defend BA -- what ever costs ! I just used the right terminology to choked you up !! And of course trying to insult anyone who you don't know--grow up ! We are not in school anymore !!

Thanks again--for busting yourself that anyone who is referring negative or critical to BA--is your enemy and you take such things personally.

I will always say my opinion frankly and especially you will never - make any difference about it !

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Oh dear, getting a bit personal again !! I do have some sympathy with the points regarding attitude made by Hess963. The first time I ever flew in first class (which was admitedly more than 15yrs ago), I got the strong impression that the cabin staff didn't think I belonged in First. Back then before my company went "casual" I had a suit on so I can only assume I looked too young or something !! Contrast with my first experience on Cathay Pacific in business class, as a Gold BA card holder I was given a special personal welcome which was done in a way that really made me feel welcome and I was upgraded to 1st on board. One disagreement with Hess, I love lobster and taken in moderation it is a very healthy food !

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To clarify Hess, I wasn’t saying 'I know you to be this sort of person' but rather, the impression I have over your range of posts on this particular thread suggests you might not be completely objective anymore, and are just waiting to really put the boot in.

We have to be careful here before we get too cross with each other: Its not just about criticising others saying ‘how dare you say I’m this, that or other’ but perhaps thinking – “I wonder how they have that impression of me’? As posters, we have assumed identities that are separate than our real world selves – and these impressions are formed purely on the basis of the posts we create. Thats the wonder of internet forums

Because of this, it might mean that when you finally post your judgement on BA First, it is not taken as seriously as it might be, which is a shame as you contribute lots to this forum.

Nevertheless, thanks for telling us about the sort of First product you seek, as this suggests you match very well the sort of passenger that BA are targeting - which is all the more reason I hope you keep an open mind.

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Hi everyone!

Gooner--thanks for the clearing comments--good to know it ! I am always frank and clear of my comments here in BT--I don't use a separation here when expressing my experiences and comments. Please don't misunderstand I am still a BA fan--now being BA Gold--the more !! I always experience first and do my own research over something before I give a comment and express it to the public. If it is too frankly or to negative--it is what I experienced. I won't start telling the other users the other way round--because it is not my nature. And the advantage, I always pay my own flights and hotels--so I do not feel committed in advertising such companies for good work or service--the opposite I give them my comments, if something went bad or issues to be corrected or taken seriously in consideration.

Who am I to say to someone here--beside those who are writing and insutling me directly without any grounds !--to take which airline, class, hotels, services.... We just share experiences and I am grateful for some good and helpful thoughts of others here. I just don't like this constant advertising and one sided view of BA or any company from certain groups of people.. It is just tiring !!

If I add new topics which look too negative or critical to BA--it means as well--that BA should consider thinking over the issues and not be to comfortable to hear only the praises and might neglect some other facts.

About the assumption that I might well match the BA target for F product--sincerly most of the cabin crews I flew with BA--give me this impression and I am glad to share them my inflight experiences on the spot. I will be always open to new and constructive issues---but you will see that I am more the critical and frank poster as it is easy to be a too fond or too positive poster. We always need a balance here in BT--otherwise it will a very boring point of view very long on BA

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Well put Hess. Thank you.

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I've never posted on this site before, or any online forum for that matter, but felt compelled to post on this one!

I've only ever flown BA First once (which I thought was fabulous!) and have made several trips on Virgin Upper so have way less experience on First than you folks.

My company will only fly me Club class so I'm going to save my miles like crazy and upgrade myself to the new BA First when I go on holiday (I think the pics look fab)! Will take me ages to save enough miles so the full roll out will probably be complete by the time I go :-)

So in the meantime I'm going to enjoy these (very) entertaining Business Traveller forums and eagerly await all your reviews!

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To coroborrate HonestCrew's post a little way up this thread, I'm advised that the completely new (as in design, not just installation) wall panels fitted in New First mean that various venting points have indeed been relocated close to the floor area.

Apparently, traditionally, these are located elsewhere and usually at a higher level.

As HC explained, in the event of de-pressurisation it's considered prudent to maintain a clear-floor policy in the vicinity of these relocated vents, and the CAA-approval of the new cabin demands it.

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Well, I shall reserve my comments for the day that I finally get to fly in it, which at this rate doesn't look like it will happen until 2011.

However, from the pictures I've seen and what I've read about it, it has a striking similarity to the prototype that I was invited to see and give my comments on in May 2006 at Waterside. Since I was asked at the time, I did say that I thought it would be seen as a refit rather than a ground breaking new product. It begs the question though, why has it taken four years to deliver the product?

I remember that we were asked to look at 4 concepts which were mostly soft improvements on the previous seat (ie. larger screen, thin mattress, new suede, new washbag, better menu, that sort of thing) but the seat was exactly the same. They wanted to know which one we liked better.

Then they showed us their new concept which is basically what they have launched now. They were quite frank about the final choice they were asking us to make. Would you rather have the soft improvements now but that would mean waiting a few more years for the new seat, or leave what was there now and get the new seat earlier. They said it had to be one or the other, I guess I don't have to tell you what I said. And I suspect I wasn't the only one.

This is why it took so long, they chose the soft improvements and delayed the new seat. In hindsight, they must be kicking themselves, they should have forged ahead with the new seat and would have been able to launch at a time when the airline was profitable and the economy was booming. Tactical mistake I think.

So add to that the roll-out time scale and we're talking 5-6 years. I hope they are already working on the next product otherwise BA will top their previous record of 15 years!

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No matter how great your seats are if BA doesn't change the way it handles the passengers luggage (i.e. often times they damage the luggage or misplace the luggage and never gets found) then that won't help you make your airline better.

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HonestCrew, if you're still listening, we need your opinion in the discussion group BA New First Class Review. Is there a policy by which passengers who have been upgraded from J to F are treated any differently to those full fare paying F passengers, ie. last to be asked what they wish to eat, etc. What about miles paying passengers? Staff travelling at 10% of fare? How much do you know about a passenger, whether he has been upgraded, whether he has paid with miles, etc. Your comments would be greatly appreciated.

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thanks, but please post to the other forum.

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Oops. Cross post; have updated the other thread.

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Hi, does anyone know if BA are using the upgraded plane on anything other than North American routes?

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To FCTraveller, no probs, will get to the BA New First Class Review forum shortly, happy to enlighten.

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LoyalBA: G-ViiU was in Nairobi on Saturday, and is off to Muscat on Sunday.

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LoyalBA: G-ViiU was in Mumbai on Thursday 4th and Friday 5th [today] Gutted as I am in F class next week!!

The new F class aircraft is currently on rotation across the network route.

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Thanks all that responded

Am travelling to Dubai later this month in F so keeping my fingers crossed.

I remember flying in J when new club world was being rolled out and managed to be on the 1 plane that had the new configuration! I seem to remember at the time they focused th upgrade initially on the LHR-JFK route hence my earlier comments.

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From what I can tell, any 777 route could have this plane. It has been in Philadelphia and on the SYD-LON route, so you might just be lucky. I have a trip coming up with several BA sectors, so will be interested to see if I get the new cabin.

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anyone know if the new first is on lhr to hkg ? as i am flying there in F on 2 april thanks

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I heard that they use it for LHR - SIN - SYD

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travelwell: until certification is complete, only one aircraft - G-VIIU, a Boeing 777-236ER - is embodied with the 'New First' cabin.

As London Heathrow to Hong Kong is a 747-436 operated route, it will be a little longer before the SAR receives a visit from a 'New First' aircraft.

Once certification is complete, then the roll-out of the new cabins will be completed as rapidly as the aircraft are rotated through their scheduled maintenance cycles.

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I spoke to the First helpdesk at BA last week and they advised me to check 10 days before my departure and they would be able to advise if the new cabin would be on my flights., I'm not expecting my early flights to have it but hoping the ones towards the end of the year will be.

Andy

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On the basis of another month to two months before the CAA give final certification for the 777 cabin, and a refresh rate of about four aircraft per month, by December about 8*4=32 additional aircraft should have been completed.

That's about 75% of the four class 777 fleet, so you should be in with a good chance by December if flying on a 777.

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Just spoken to Your First - apparently their schedule only runs up until the 17th at the moment (I'm travelling on the 18th!) - The aircraft will be inbound from Accra on the 17th and was in Dubai on the 12th,

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My advice would be hope for the best but expect to fly old First for some time yet. With just one aircacft it will be almost impossible for "BA You First" to be able to predict where it is going to operate too. BA find it hard enough to plan for tomorrow what their aircraft will operate and that is with a stable fleet. Until December it will be very hit and miss unless they choose to dedicate to a specific route such as JFK or SYD.

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Actually Binman62, BA have circulated a list for the past several weeks listing where the plane will be flying - and they have called me this morning to let me know I'll be on board the aircraft tomorrow (allbeit with no hot food!)

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Loyal BA

There are differing reports about the hot food - are you sure ?

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Travellator - To be honest, whilst the lady from You First was very sure about the actual aircraft she had no more information to divulge about the onboard service than I could find on ba.com!!

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HonestCrew - As I've just posted on one of the other forum threads - Landed today from DXB - full crew on a 777 and no hot food, no2nd meal service, no sleeper suits, no wash bags, no duty free and an economy bar service.

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Having made a few enquiries into why such a 'lean' service is being provided, part of the contingency plan to deal with the industrial action involves possible last minute flight changes, aircraft changes, flight reinstatement, etc. To cater an aircraft takes several trucks and precious time, so in order to keep disruption to a minimum, if the amount of carts and cannisters can be reduced by not loading the 'extras' as Loyal mentioned, this can help to keep everything & everybody moving.

Why no hot food? Please keep in mind salads and chilled items can be kept chilled for a decent amount of time in chilled carts, whereas soon-to-be 'hot entrees' are part frozen and can't sit on a catering truck for long as they need to be loaded onto the aircraft and cooked within quite a limited time frame. (The catering company loads everything, not only food items. All carts and containers must be x-rayed, sealed, transported, etc from customs and security approved sites.)

Hope this helps.

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I've just been reading some other boards which have advised that a Boeing 744 is heading to New York tonight with new First on board for its inaugural voyage...hopefully someone will snap some photos on board...

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Excellent news!

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Yes you did mention that in your other post about losing staff travel benefits.

Plasticky is not a word the other people who have seen the product would use. The leather used throughout the design would only feel plasticky to those who lacked good judgement.

Bussing is a problem at T5, but the situation is of BAA's making and will largely be resolved in early 2011 when T5C comes onstream.

On my last longhaul arrival at T5, my bags had already gone round the belt once, and I was arriving in F, travelling alone and used IRIS. Superb.

www.ba.com/first

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GEO & VK - as an ex BA employee - from many years ago, and since then a staunch supporter of BA and their products - I have had a Gold Card for 13 years - and now have a Concorde Card which VK also has (I think).

Let's call a spade, a spade - BA during the 90's, they were the innovator of Airline standards which has paved the way the market leaders behave today - a little like Pan-Am in the 70's - look what happened to them as they did not stay ahead of the game. Yes First and New First on BA is a good product (I fly 3 times every 2 weeks - probably as much as VK). The market is very competitive and BA have not addressed the competition with the same vigour as in the past - personally I'm sure they will during the up and coming post -Walsh period.

I remember when we went on strike at BA - all staff travel was suspended - this is a privilege and not a right - the Unions would never support an employee if this was revoked due to abuse.

VK the idea of any forum is communicate in a virtual context i.e. as one would speak to another - not continuously correcting another participants English - otherwise what does ' wehen T5C comes onstream' - is this a small Scottish chicken attempting to reproduce in a small river – whatever rocks your yacht, Or is this a case of - pot -kettle - black.

VK today BA is not the market leader it once was - I wish it was but I would not even try and attempt defending their offerings - but the reality is - IT'S NOT - get over it and move on, whilst at displaying some form of courtesy in allowing other folk have their say without the Stalin type approach of being critiqued and chastised.

On the whole VK - yes your insider information regarding BA is most informative, but not as in depth as other comments you've provided about other carriers - this is your perogative - but please display some dignity and allow others to express themselves. THANKYOU

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...Comments made worse by constant cringeworthy references to 'Trots' and petty sniping about Gordon Brown, conveniently forgetting that it was the Conservatives, and not the Labour Party, who made it an election promise to oppose the hugely needed extra runway at LHR.

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Well said ekond111.

I did see the mock-up in the Concorde Room last month. It is, as I thought, the exact same mock-up I saw in Waterside four years ago. You cannot expect to be a leader in this field when you design a product in 2006, bring it to market in 2011 (effectively) and expect to drag it out until 2020 (if the last one is anything to go by).

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Hi everyone !

well said indeed ekond111.

Actually I have to thank VK for being so what he or she is -- as I have learned to try other carriers and broaden my experiences and knowledges over other airlines---there is still life beside BA this or BA that--there are other great carriers out there !

Wish everyone safe travels especially in Europe with this ash issues and chaos around the European airports--on Friday in Hamburg--no chance--this morning in Frankfurt--no chance--at the moment in FRA flights are cancelled till this evening and now what ?? It could get worse and I am still in Frankfurt till the whole weekend ! Trains around in Germany--do not even try it !!--absolutely full because of the flight problems and it is weekend !! everybody wants to go home !!

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I believe that BA Cabin staff are second to none, the cabin is tired, especially compared with Enirates new first cabins, but the service is excellent, unfotunately transfer at T5 is an experience I never look forward to. on a recent trip from JFK to Dubai, Via heathrow it took over 30 Minutes to get through transit... fast track was closed because they were too busy!!!???

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I believe that BA Cabin staff are second to none, the cabin is tired, especially compared with Enirates new first cabins, but the service is excellent, unfotunately transfer at T5 is an experience I never look forward to. on a recent trip from JFK to Dubai, Via heathrow it took over 30 Minutes to get through transit... fast track was closed because they were too busy!!!???

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I wholeheartedly agree with Ekond 111's comments and frank assesment of VK. I myself, have refrained from checking this thread and posting in part, due to VK's attitude and shabby manners. VK's stalinist approach to defending BA serves only to discourage pax like myself, who do fly F longhaul and hold a OneWorld Emerald status card. In fact, a my chosen carrier's equivalent of your Concorde card. BA was the great innovator in F class in the 90s but now it just cannot keep up.

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For my money - and I do pay personally for MOST of my J class travel - BA still has the best business class in the air, primarily because of the Club World seat. I go out of my way to fly BA when travelling Australia--Europe and UK--USA, because of the Club World experience and the Heathrow Arrivals lounge - both of which are, in my opinion, unbeaten by any other carrier.

It is a shame that some BA cabin crew - those who have deservedly now lost their staff travel privileges - clearly don't want to be there. If you are so unhappy with your conditions and your employer, the decent thing to do is resign and let someone who wants to be there have your position.

As regards the comments about VK, yes, sometimes his pro-BA sentiments can be wearing, but there are many others on this site whose anti-BA rantings and personal attacks on those who have the temerity to disagree with them are much, much worse ..........

Continues...

Well said John. The arrivals lounge is a real treat when returning on overnight flights. The opportunity to have a shower, change of clothes, sit and let the traffic losen up on the M25 with a cuppa and a read of the papers. It is a shame there are not more.

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Agreed John and N Tarrant. As I always fly CX F to LHR I miss the benefit of BA's arrivals lounge. I will try the AA lounge which allows CX F class pax to entry and revert to this forum about the product. BA has a lot going for it but this thread is about the new F class. CX's bed is 36 inches wide (3 feet !) at the shoulders and upper part and the private space is a lot. When I fly long haul (and I do fly F) my first priority is the bed and the space be it suite, enclosed, open etc. CX's F class toliets are much larger and very importantly, cabin crew are charged with the responsibility of keeping them clean, odour free and refresh them at regular intervals. Great for pre-landing wash up ! This is down to Asian crew and I am sure will offend the sensibilities of BA cabin crew but as a discerning consumer I am interested in product, service and the experience. Given the very attractive pics of BA's new F class, I will try it on the HKG/LHR route to sample the new product and avail of the fabulous arrivals lounge ! Any news on when LHR will open for landings ?

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I agree on the whole BA is good BUT what is indefensible is the shockingly poor reliability of the IFE - it is rubbish.

I doubt anyone can hand on heart reply saying wow the IFE on BA is excellent. I had 6 flights in March all F or J class, only on two flights and they were to Geneva did the system work. Even when it does work the choice is low quality programming.

I refrained from writing this post in a thread about BA First class BUT did anyone wonder why BA chose to fly their brand new First to Chicago rather than New York?? I am very reliably informed that 3 of the BRAND NEW seats IFE systems were NOT working on day 1 and BA decided to fly to Chicago instead!! How ridiculous is that!!??

Whist on the subject of how good BA is [and trust me I fly BA all the time] the arrivals lounge is a lovely treat but from many destinations one arrives after 2pm and then of course the lounge is closed. With other carriers a chauffeur driver will take you to your destination, indeed they will take you to the airport for your departure too and often give you free nights hotel accommodation en route [EK current deal].

So yes I agree BA is good though I note pretty much every aspect of the experience has deteriorated in the last year......is BA really, really that good, I think not.

Don't attack me for my comments, I will fly BA again - there is always something comforting about flying BA

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Hi Pat_travels - From memory, BA chose Chicago as the first route to fly new First due to the eastern seaboard being shut due to snow.

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Hi Loyal_BA - I am sure there were many plausible reasons that could of been given as to why BA didn't fly to JFK with its first flight of FIRST

I was told very very reliably that it flew to Chicago because 3 of the seats were not working.

Given my experiences with BA IFE system I could easily see this happening

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Any news on when BA will operate their new F class on the HKG route ?

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Pat_travels - having talked with crew on the inaugural flight of new First to ORD, it had nothing to do with seats working or not working - it had everything to do with JFK being closed due to snow. The a/c was substituted onto ORD, having been assigned to JFK earlier in the day. I talked with the crew, who were advised during their briefing they were the first to fly new First. There was a seating engineer on the plane, but he didn't tinker with anything in the F Cabin on both the outbound and subsequent return flights (the return being rather full).

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StephenLondon - would you really expect the crew to acknowledge the problem after the event? Even if they wanted to say something the corporate line, of course would be that everything was wonderful and the new product is the way forward, I understand that.

The facts sourced on good authority tell me that three seats were vacant on the inaugural flight and that was because the IFE did not work. With regards the return leg, I suspect but its not confirmed a bunch of engineers from the company who sold BA the IFE system were waiting for the aircraft. It is an American company responsible for the IFE.

I was really hoping a forum reader was on that flight, they could then at least confirm that 3 seats were empty - which in itself must of seemed odd.

Continues...

There was indeed a forum reader on that very flight:

www.businesstraveller.com/discussion/topic/BA-new-First-Class-Review

Given the late change of destination due to snow, it is not surprising that the cabin might not have been full.

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VintageKrug Indeed Andrewflyer wrote a splendid piece about the new F product. I have seen it [was unfortunate not to have flown] the two times it came to Mumbai. Andrewflyer didn't have a lot to say about the IFE apart from the screen size though.

You will note my original comments were about IFE as a whole and I then commented about my knowledge of the inaugural flight. You will also note I did ask not to be attacked for my comments, knowing well i was in trouble for saying something horrible about BA - imagine!

Like Andrewflyer wrote I am not a frequent poster, nor am I an employee of BA. However, I did say I thought BA is a good airline

BUT as always if a single word is said against BA on this forum then your post is ripped to shreds with any number of arguments in support of the company.

I know 3 seats were empty on the flight to Chicago and that was because the IFE failed. BA is a good airline BUT its IFE is rubbish

do not try to defend the indefensible - it is ok to say BA is not so good at something.

EVEN BA agrees with me that there is a problem with the IFE and a high level group within the company is tasked with sorting the whole issue as a priority!

Sadly, I am deterred from posting on this forum, but on this issue I have the facts.

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Launch party ce soir at a Gallery in Mayfair. Should think several journos will be stranded in the US.

Will BT be in attendance?

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We were going, but it has been cancelled, I'm afraid.

"Dear guests,

Due to the unprecedented circumstances we are now facing due to the volcanic ash, British Airways has decided to cancel this evening's First event in London to focus all efforts on the support plans for our customers.

We do apologise for the short notice, but thank you in advance for your understanding. We hope to re-schedule the event and we will keep you posted. In the mean time, if you require any information on First please let us know and we will be happy to send it to you.

Please let us know that you have received this message as we will be calling anybody we have not heard from.

Best wishes,

Name of contact

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Hi Pat_Travels,

Thanks for the praise on my review - I appreciate it.

There were just six customers on the LHR-ORD sector, which I think is all it was booked to. We were lucky to get to ORD as the snows had only dumped 12-inches of snow in Chicago (which they can deal with in a snap), but New York got stung by a lot of snow and ice, closing airports for a while.

I didn't notice any extra staff / engineers etc either on board or when we arrived. All seats seemed to be in working order - in fact, a lady near me switched seats to be away from the sunshine (A seats can get hot on Westbound trans-Atlantic flights). Nobody mentioned broken IFE. On the way back, we were full, and again, nobody mentioned broken IFE, I got my seat of choice and I was unaware of anyone being moved due to any inoperable seats.

The new screens are great - a good position and size, the touch-screen works well, and the content was fine. Other carriers may have more (Air NZ, Emirates) but on carriers like EK, I've found they can cycle many of their films for at least three months. On a recent Etihad First flight, they have new seats with vast screens (23 inch, perhaps?). Nice, but the quality was average, and at night, the flicker from many bright screens flickers on the ceiling, creating quite a bit of ambient light (a bit light flashbulbs going off in the distance, or lightning). It was very frustrating - so screen size has less importance to me than quality and content. BA content is fine - not exceptional, but fine.

Do give new First a whirl if you can - it is super!

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Does anyone know how you can tell (aside from stepping into the cabin) if you will have the new First on your flight?

I'm flyinf First to LA next month and just wondered if i'd get the new experience

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Thanks for letting us have the facts that there was no IFE failure on the inaugural 777 First trip to Chicago, AndrewFlyer.

There is no way to tell whether you will have the new First, other than it is on one 747 and one 777.

Expect two aircraft to be added to this roster every 15 days once the cabins get CAA approval (I think this is due any day now).

Best to look forward to the old, tatty cabin we know and love, and be pleasantly surprised if you get the new one.

I don't see how knowing whether you will get the new cabin in advance would be of benefit? YouFirst might know within two days of the flight, as someone on here did ask them, though of course this can change for operational reasons.

Except perhaps there would be no need to bring your Empower adaptor with you.

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VintageKrug - sorry, I take offense to your last post in this thread. Are you implying I do not have facts? -"thanks to AndrewFlyer for the FACTS that there was no IFE failure".

AndrewFlyer, ONCE again wrote a very eloquent piece and he states, he 'didnt notice any extra staff/engineers' and 'all seemed to be in working order' - are you suggesting facts are based on an observation as powerful as someone not noticing something or something seeming to be ok - is that factual in your estimation??

I still maintain with confidence I have the facts - maybe an employed representative of BA, maybe from their engineering team might like to confirm my facts??

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Pat_travels:

AndrewFlyer has given us his first hand account of the flight in question. Whilst I accept he may not have tested the IFE on each seat or questioned each passenger as to their occupation, it is still the best evidence we have.

Your initial assertion that IFE caused the first flight to be scheduled to ORD rather than NY was quickly debunked by others who point out that it was scheduled to fly to JFK but the weather on the Eastern seabord put pay to that. In any case, what difference is there between sending it to ORD over JFK? Are F passengers flying to Illinois less likely to notice a malfunctioning TV? If there really was a conspiracy afoot, why didn't BA simply claim the aircraft had gone tech?

The old adage, "he who asserts, must prove" is as true here as anywhere else. If you have some direct evidence then please quote it, for it is your assertion and not for others to provide evidence for you.

If you can't or are unwilling to provide us with a source, then as incandescent as you may wish to get, we have every right to be skeptical as to your assertion.

I realise that by supporting VK and defending BA, I am now a fully paid up member of the BA apologist society. So be it.

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Baggageinhall - did I ever see you in an episode of Yes Mnister?

If there had been investigations, which there haven't, or not necessarily, or I'm not at to say whether there have, there would have been a project team which, had it existed, on which I cannot comment, would now have been disbanded, if it had existed, and the members returned to their original departments, if indeed there had been any such members.

No offence, just for fun but your point i sunderstood.

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Thanks Bernard!

Important not to take offence, and especially important not to take "offense" at anything written here.

Glad we have cleared up the incorrect assertion that an IFE failure was present on the inaugural First flight.

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Stunning photo at http://www.airliners.net/photo/British-Airways/Boeing-777-236-ER/1692175/&sid=b1fa4f75fc1a6e17c7fea287e3622024

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That's the best picture I have seen so far, looks really good. Can't wait

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still looks more like club world from that angle apart fromn the extra big windows. I look forward to trying it out.

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Hey VK ... what happened to the special offer F and J tickets on BA that you promised us a month ago!?? Still waiting...........

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I don't recall mentioning "special offers for F and J tickets".

What I said was there would be some very worthwhile offers shortly to entice people back into F and J cabins which would make it worthwhile waiting a day or two to book.

About five days after that the www.ba.com/springrewards offers were released for eligible (European based) customers, who booked AFTER they had signed up for the offer.

These offers include 5,000 bonus BA Miles for flying in Club Europe, and 25,000 BA Miles for flying in Club World round trip.

In addition, some countries are offering BAEC Silver cards for just one round trip in Club World or four round trips in Club Europe (not such a big deal as that is only around 100 TPs off the usual qualifying requirement).

It is hard to say when the next proper premium fare sale will be released, but I would imagine a resolution of the industrial action will be needed before it goes ahead.

Notwithstanding that, and going on normal form, I would have expected a sale in early/mid May.

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How nice to see that some free loader trying to use this forum has made such a complete hash of it! My congratulations and may you continue to fail.

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I am planning to route LHR to either SFO, IAD, LAX, PHX or DFW just after Dec 25 & from SFO to LHR on Fri January 7 .. is there any way I can ascertain now or nearer the time whether the aircraft will have the much improved First Class ?

Any suggestions gratefully received ...

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Very hard to tell, JeremyB as the equipment can change at the last minute. One would expect the new product on the premium routes first (i.e. LHR - JFK, LHR - HKG) but I found myself pleasantly surprised last month sitting in New First on a LHR to Bahrain. Go figure.

Good luck and with the flexibility it appears you have on the outbound, hope you can find yourself in the new product!

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JeremyB - I'm sure others will correct me if I'm wrong (VK, especially), but the only routes 'certain' to have New First are the rotations to BOM & ORD using the new 777-300ERs - assuming the aircraft doesn't go tech and is replaced by something else. All other routes are liable to use any of the 747s/777s which may or may not be New First fitted.

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New F is not rostered to dedicated routes, I'm afraid.

It was only the new 777-300ER aircraft which was planned for ORD on its first few flights, but that may now be rostered to other destinations ensure more crew get to experience it. Best not to bank on it being on a specific route.

Here is the list of current aircraft with new F, all 14 seat cabins:

Here's a recap of the current aircraft confirmed with NF (all with 14 F seats)

Boeing 777-236 G-VIIU, G-VIIV, G-VIIW, G-VIIX, G-VIIY

Boeing 777-336 G-STBA (first flight not until ~ late Aug/early Sept)

Boeing 747-436 G-CIVF, G-CIVG

That's 8 out of approximately 70 aircraft which have F at LHR (not certain of the current actual number) so a little over a 10% chance of getting it right now if flying from Heathrow.

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Yes, my luck finally arrived last week on a flight to Toronto. I had even stopped calling You First because the answer was always no so I was totally not expecting it. So much so that when I was escorted to the cabin, I thought I was in Club World for a second because I didn't recognise the layout.

It was a very pleasant experience overall, a major improvement and I guess better late than never. The seat is more comfortable and is slightly bigger. It was a day flight so I only had a nap but can see the improvement on the bed front.

I did bang my head on the light twice trying to reach for the magazines, don't know if it's just me being clumsy or has this happened to anyone else. My only major disappointment is the video system, it took quite a while to get mine working and even after it was, I found the screen resolution to be no better than the old system. It kind of defeats the purpose of having a larger screen if you're not going to have a crisp clean image. The technology is there to have HD quality video so why didn't they do it?

It was kind of nice to see that the crew, a few of them had not flown on it yet, as excited as the passengers. It took three of them to help me figure out how to find the remote control. They say their training was so long ago they forgot it all so we had a good laugh about that.

Would have wanted more but I've already commented on this previously and how late it's been so will stop harping on about that now.

Looking forward to flying on it again.

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I have been fortunate to fly new First on my last three trips LHR/BOM route. The station manager tells me that the new First is rostered onto specific routes, Mumbai being one of those routes. I am sat in Concorde room now waiting for my fourth experience of new First.

Totally agree with you FCTraveller re the lamp, I also find the positioning of the handset for tv/games control to be in a really clumsy position.

Overall though a fabulous product and great to see crew and passengers a like excited and pleased.

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A seemingly well informed crew member was confident the new Boeing 777-336 will be on the LHR/BOM route on 8th August

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Sorry to say it, the seemingly well-informed crew member is not as well-informed as they think they are. The 777-336ER will not be in revenue service until September at the earliest...

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Indeed, however the crewmember was giving as accurate information as was probably available to them, the plan only changed in the past week or so.

It is also unlikely to be rostered ORD/BOM for its first few days of service; as ever best to view a flight on the new bird as a lucky co-incidence, rather than something that is guaranteed.

The second -300ER is almost complete in Seattle, and should be in Cardiff very soon.

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I think the last 3 posts show that someone in this forum could do a better job than Ian Fleming:

"Seat 1A, hunting for the new first class seat"

starring

Pat_travel as Agent Hunting (for the first class seat)

Stephenlondon as Q

VintageKrug as Sir Frederick Gray

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Sorry to say, VintageKrug, the plan has not changed in the past week - it remains where it has been for some time...including the inaugural destination...

Thanks, MartynSinclair, I've always wanted to be in an Ian Fleming-type extravaganza!

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Well, I was told by a BA Ambassador pitching new First to me that BOM/ORD was the plan. That was about four weeks ago.

Then last week I heard a new rostered destination is now planned; so the plan must have changed at some point between the initial plan for BOM/ORD and the newly revised plan.

I think the date I was told was always 8th September, but I would have to check my posts to confirm that. Though of course operational factors can always affect things so as ever, it's best not to bank on getting this aircraft on any specific route.

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Have read lots of interesting things about BA's 'New First' through this forum. We are flying F LHR to LAX next Feb (then AA First to Honolulu so interesting to compare), and I tried to check if LHR to LAX will have the new F by then. As per other posts BA couldn't say. All they would "commit" to was that the roll out should be complete by end of 2011. Not very helpful when you're flying in Feb! This trip, alas, will be our first and probably last chance to try F so fingers crossed. In the meantime ironically I now find it difficult to find info on the 'Old' F. Could any of you frequent F flyers give me a little insight to the pros and cons of Old versus New? We normally fly Club and would be interested to know if you think it's worth the extra for First (fat people and children excepted!). Ciao. PS. Am flying Club to Chicago in Sept so hope to sneak a peek on that flight!

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This is about the best British Airways First Class Trip Report on the net, with plenty of piccies:

www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-reports/847462-british-airways-premium-experience-part-1-a.html

I really don't think you'll be disappointed in the slightest, whether you get the "old" First or are fortunate to get the newer version.

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Does anyone know if the Boeing 747-436 G-CIVF, G-CIVG fitted with New First are medium or high J fit our. Just curious so I can see what the chances are of getting it on my regular LHR / SFO flight

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does anyone know if BA 09 LHR - SYD via BHK will be fitted with the new First cabins as of Nov 2010? The use 747's on this route. Have BA fitted ANY 747's with new First? BA exec club are no use at all on the matter.

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There really is ABSOLUTELY no point in asking on here about whether new F will be rostered on your flight or not. Such information is not publicly available.

There are still very few aircraft emboldened with new F in service, less than ten aircraft (two 747s and five 777s confirmed right now) all operating exLHR out of a four class LHR fleet of about 80 planes (not sure exactly). The brand new aircraft looks be scheduled for passenger service late August, though that could shift to another date.

So it's just under 5% probability of being on the new F (a non scientific finger in the air calculation!).

BA does not dedicate certain aircraft to specific routes; New York one day, Delhi the next is very much the order of the day.

If you really, really, really have to know whether or not your flight will have new F or not, the a call to YouFirst about 48 hours before you travel might be able to let you know whether you will have new F, but even then operational matters could change the allocated aircraft.

Personally, I think it rather wastes YouFirst's trime to have deal with such esoteric queries.

I fail to see how knowing whether you have new F is of any benefit whatsoever, apart from possibly knowing whether you might need an empower cable for your laptop power (which is hardly bulky to carry) or if you have a flexible F longhaul ticket and want to "opt-in" to a new F flight. You will only be disappointed if the answer is "no new F on this service".

Much better to look forward to flying First, and see it as a fortunate bonus if indeed you do get the new cabin when you turn left, although you might be able to identify it at the gate either by the registration (listed a few posts above this) or by the fact that every third window is blocked out.

You can see historic data publicly, and this site has highlighted the flying patterns of those aircraft with new F in a fetching turquiose:

http://www.ftdashboard.net/fleet/b744.htm

http://www.ftdashboard.net/fleet/b772.htm

You will see that the destinations are fairly random, though there is a higher instance of flights to BOM with new F than any other destination.

All aircraft should be fitted by summer 2011.

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Thanks

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No.....but be preparedd to be very d?sappointed if you get the old 1st class.....its is not worth the money and i found service very poor...BA will never be a 5 star airl?ne

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Sorry, SBingham, can't agree. The last flight in F I had last week couldn't be faulted or bettered. It was def. 5 star and the old cabin. But then that's my opinion - and that's what this forum is for, sharing views and agreeing to disagree.

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I must say that I am shocked that so many people who travel in First have enough time on their hands to indulge in these mindless exchanges. The job that enables me to indulge in First Class travel keeps me much more fully occupied. Just enjoy new First if you get it and stop torturing yourselves (and me) whether you will or not.

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I am travelling from Heathrow to Edinburgh on 29 Feb 2017 on the all Y configuration 3am flight. Will my A320 have the new First Class? Plus, will there be a chicken meal available? I don't really like the beef options. Please let me know asap as my therapist tells me I need 'closure'.

@nevereconomy..... damn good point.

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@AlexUpgrade77: I consulted my crystal ball: it will be an all standing flight, almost direct (only two stops in Birmingham and Manchester) and to maintain the quality service, they will only allow 450 passengers on board!

More seriously, while I agree the F seat is quite average on BA (it is more than 10 years old now), the service is truly excellent. Of course they are no more proposing a la carte dining as they were a few years ago and sometimes they face stupid situation such as no more Nespresso capsules on board. But with no doubt it remains the best F class in Europe, IMHO.

Now is it worth paying the double for this service (compared to their absolutely prime business class service), I am not sure. Let's see what the new seat will offer...

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SPAM

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Live Business SCARE - more like !

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Are livebusinesscare101 based in Nigeria?

...or Yangon?

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I was very fortunate to experience the "New" First Product from HKG to LHR on Sunday night on the BA026. I say fortunate as I understood this was not a route it was ever planned to operate at this early stage.

So what was it like?

I boarded early as I had been told that the new product was available and I wanted to see what it was all about. As a result I left the new First Lounge at HKG earlier than I had planned. This new lounge is in fact the old BA/QF lounge which has been opened up (it was previously divided in two for Club and First) It was very quiet and calm on Sunday and I liked the new layout. There is another lounge downstairs for Club between gates 15/16 but I did not get he chance to see it.

Upon boarding I was not escorted to my seat and when I got into the cabin I found I was one of the last to board. My immediate reaction was that the cabin is much smaller now with less open space and it felt cramped. I found my own way and settled in and it was some minutes before any crew member approached me. The customary wash bag and pyjamas were handed out and a glass of excellent champagne. Disappointingly there was no help with the seat control or facilities, which I put down to the crew not being very familiar with the product. I later found the guide myself.

The purser was charming but the other crew member looked like she wanted to be anywhere else and sadly I got her for most of the flight home. (Am I alone in lamenting the demise of the CSD introducing themselves to each of the First passengers?)

Once seated it became clear why the cabin felt smaller and that is because it is. The introduction of the personal wardrobe ( brilliant idea) adds about 2 to 3 inches per seat making the entry to each seat smaller( but that may just be perception) The central console in front of 3EF is now much higher off the ground than before and this too takes away from the open feel of the old 747 cabin.

I liked what they have done, from the little personal light, to the footstool, the simplified seat control and the fabulous blinds. The new TV monitor is finally a decent size. There is also a 3 pin plug so no more expensive and bulky transformers to run your PC. The TV monitor also allows USB and Ipod connections, very clever and very useful. The table is sturdy and better suited to dining with a buddy. The gains in length however are at the expense of width. There are little green and blue lights at floor level showing you where things are and the seat control turns green when the seat is in the correct position for take off and landing.

Overall it felt a bit homely, a place where I did not have to fight for control of the remote, where I would get a decent meal, a good glass of wine and an excellent cognac.

As for the seat this is the old seat which has been recovered and looks great but my personal view was that it was not as comfortable as the old seat when converted to a bed

I had a few gripes.

Firstly that the control unit for TV/Radio is the old control and both the content of the IFE and the picture quality on the new screen was very poor. It did however work which for this passenger was in itself a novelty.

My second gripe was the new central light was left on for almost 2.5 hours throughout the meal service. It was far too bright and intrusive. The crew did not seem to know how it worked but I understand it was supposed to dim to blue.

Finally, watch out for the floor around row 3 and the centre seats. The carpet is dark blue but there is a very defined slope as if the seat is raised off the ground. I found myself catching this slope each time I walked passed row 3 and each time almost tipped into the passenger seated in 3K or 3A It was very disconcerting ( for all concerned)

The food was superb and the wine excellent and whilst I thought the bed a bit uncomfortable I did get 7 hours sleep so it could not have been too bad.

Overall however my view is that this is not a new product, it is an enhancement of a tried a tested layout that works for BA as their primary market is the USA and no one across the Atlantic can hold a candle to them. On the Far East however I think they will struggle as the Cathay 9 seat 747 cabin is light years ahead of BA. It is an open, airy layout and very clearly a premium offering.

I was lucky to use it again last week but when flying in Business Class on a regional route. The seat was fabulous and the 747 cabin stunning. This hard product on CX is supported by outstanding crew who used names throughout the 5 hour sector. It was also supported by quite exceptional catering and a simply fabulous IFE system.

Such was the quality on CX that I very much doubt BA will see me again on the HKG route as a First passenger. I am happy to sacrifice the additional miles I get from being loyal to BA for the comfort, care and service I get on CX ( I would not however touch the CX mortuary business class layout the only thing missing from which is toe tags

For those who like individual cabins, SQ EK etc will all outshine BA as will the QF A380.

The blinds are very clever but they are simply large window blinds and they reduce the openness of the cabin. The wardrobe is great and the storage provided extensive. However this was all achieved at the expense of personal space which I feel has been much reduced. There has been nothing done to the toilets or the IFE and the cabin crew are simply not consistent enough.

On arrival at LHR I used the arrivals lounge for the first time ever as I could not convince anyone to collect me at 5am on a bank holiday! This was great once I got passed the lounge dragons (BA staff) that went to some lengths to check I was bone fide First and before issuing the Concorde Room Breakfast invite. The staffs here were charming and the breakfast wonderful.

All in all this was a very comfortable and pleasant journey. The HKG lounge is much improved and the in flight product is good. It could be so much better and to succeed the crew will need to become dedicated to the First product and deliver a more consistent premium product generally. T5 is by far the only place to use at LHR and the arrival facilities are excellent.

I can fully appreciate why BA have gone down this route. This was a cost effective means of enhancing the First product but it is not a new product by any means. It may help hold up traffic for a year or two until the dream liner and A380 come along but at that point they will need to look again at what they are offering First passengers, if indeed they want to continue offering such a product. In the meantime the competition is providing, on some routes at least, products that are light years ahead of these BA enhancements and often at fares well below those demanded by BA.

I think it will need more than this.

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Binman62 - excellent piece and thanks for sharing your thoughts and comments. Have to say I am 100% in agreement with you on all your observations and critique. on one point, it was only after reading your comments that I realised how attentive to detail CX crew are re names. Just got back from a BOM/HKG flight on CX where I was greeted at every opportunity by name, conversely as you say BA don't even bother with the Gold card/First welcome any longer... shame!

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Binman62 - thanks for such a balanced review - its refreshing!

For me, its the service elements of any airline that truly set it apart. The hard product in my opinion is a given on any airline (albeit with levels of customisation) - the soft product is what will make me continue to fly with that particular airline when I have a choice. Sometimes BA get it so right and sometimes so terribly wrong. I do fear with the advent of the mixed fleet crew, that service levels will suffer. Whilst I have nothing but gut feel to support this, I do think that with the advent of the new mixed fleet crew, that service onboard will drop down to those which I get longhaul from LGW (which in my opinion is nowhere near as good as from LHR). Its such as shame as I do think BA have a good hard product with their New F cabin (even if it is an evolution as opposed to a revolution!).

Interestingly, I did fly from ICN - HKG with CX in business and interestingly I was the only person in the business cabin. On this occasion, the service from CX was too much! I had to ask them (politely) to leave me alone as I had 4 cabin crew stood around me every two minutes!!

I think the only gripe I have with the new cabin is the screen between the middle (E/F) seats - why oh why didn't they do something similar to the club cabin with a solid product that retracts - as opposed to having a a bar which obstructs your eyeline and the person sat in the opposite seat! There wasn't anything wrong with the divider in the old F cabin!

I've not had chance yet to fly new F on a 747 (only the 777) - what have they done with the old wardrobe between 1A and 1K. I hate sitting in either of these seats because of the access required to the wardrobe, so a major enhancement for me would be to remove it (given the new personal wardrobes) - have they done this?

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Binman62

Thanks for a very good piece.

Also, looking at the new BA WT and WT+ photos, my sense is that there is nothing wrong with these new products, but that they lack the ambition one would expect from one of the world's leading airlines.

In conclusion, BA seems to be happy to sit back and provide an adequate hard product, with a variable soft product, with the exception of club world, where the seat is still cutting edge, IMHO.

It will be interesting to see where it goes from here.

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Binman, good to hear you enjoyed your experience of new FIRST.

The new seat is most definitely NOT "the old seat which has been recovered"; the very fact that it required entirely new CAA certificates to be allowed to fly is proof of that.

I have experienced the new seat twice in the past few months (though have yet to fly on it); I like the clean, contemporary cabin feel and the new, larger IFE screen (although usually use my MacBookPro) and felt the new seat was roomier than previous iterations, except at the pointy end where partner dining is not as easy as was the case previously (though it could never have been said to have been comfortable).

The new IFE on board the 777-300ER, and enlarged screens throughout will be an excellent innovation, without making the Premium Economy cabin so good that it poaches business from the Club World cabin.

www.newclubworld.com continues to set the standard for flat bed business class seating, and with all four new cabins being revealed in full aboard the new 777-300 fleet the hard product in the air will continue to compete effectively with other leading carriers, while the lounge products are rarely beaten.

I continue to be perplexed that people post on here that they are not being shown to their seats; this always happens to me.

The soft "crew" issues are not isolated of late and an end to BASSA's horrific engineering of unrest and disquiet within the airline cannot come soon enough; thankfully it seems even BASSA's masters at Unite see the issue and will take the necessary steps.

The new "Mixed Fleet" recruits will begin European routes from early November; once these new enthusiastic customer focussed crew take over dedicated long haul routes from early 2011. I expect to see a marked improvement in consistency of crew and attitude on Mixed Fleet routes; having said that the crew on my recent flight to San Francisco couldn't have been more helpful and attentive.

www.ba.com/first

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Binman - very good and fair appraisal. How many hours sleep would you generally get when flying in Club World on a 12 hour night sector? I have taken the view that 7 - 8 hours sleep in the comfy CW seats negates the need to spend the extra on F. I know everyone has a choice, but in my mind, if you are horizontal and uncouncious, does it really matter. I know some feel that a glass of champers and a gourmet meal is worth a couple of thousand extra in cost - that though is for each of us to decide. Yes I like to travel F, either in new or old format, but I just dont see the value, especially when compared to CW.

Interestingly in CW, I still get greeted by the CSD, usually though at the end of the flight as a thank you for flying BA. A nice touch.

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Binman, great review.

Like VK i was quite surprised to learn of you not being shown to your seat or greated by name. I have spoken to a personal friend who is part of the BA cabin crew and he confirmed this to be the standard given to all passengers in First.

Also i am surprised to learn that nobody has realised the new IFE screens are all touch screen!!! Be sure to check out this great review

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVYeFqaS0nM&NR=1

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LoyalBA... the wardrobe remains between 1A K and will be needed for coats and the storage of heavy hand bags. The personal wardrobe can handle jackets but not much else. My flight was full on Sunday but there were just 2 small items in the wardrobe. Agree with you about CX at times they do seem to over cook the personalised service. This trip was also my first time in their herringbone seat which I thought was awful. The view from the upper deck toliet mid flight was just feet. Hence my mortuary reference. I did not like the seat, the inbilty to see out the window and the very narrow nature of it. But their First cabin is a very different animal. VK being escorted to the seat is a very hit and miss event and wholly reliant on there being an excellent CSD. I am not convinced that it is a new seat but would accept that there are elements of the seat that have changed so fundementally that they may require certification. I am inclined to the view that this product is an evolution and not a revolution. I suppose at the end of the day it is all about personal choice and this product will certainly please a lot of people. However it will not be a world beating product such as Club world clearly is (imho) and that is a pity given the airlines history with regard to inovation and product development.

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LoyalBA... the wardrobe remains between 1A K and will be needed for coats and the storage of heavy hand bags. The personal wardrobe can handle jackets but not much else. My flight was full on Sunday but there were just 2 small items in the wardrobe. Agree with you about CX at times they do seem to over cook the personalised service. This trip was also my first time in their herringbone seat which I thought was awful. The view from the upper deck toliet mid flight was just feet. Hence my mortuary reference. I did not like the seat, the inbilty to see out the window and the very narrow nature of it. But their First cabin is a very different animal. VK being escorted to the seat is a very hit and miss event and wholly reliant on there being an excellent CSD. I am not convinced that it is a new seat but would accept that there are elements of the seat that have changed so fundementally that they may require certification. I am inclined to the view that this product is an evolution and not a revolution. I suppose at the end of the day it is all about personal choice and this product will certainly please a lot of people. However it will not be a world beating product such as Club world clearly is (imho) and that is a pity given the airlines history with regard to inovation and product development.

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The CX First Class cabin in the 747 is superb, and even when it was 14 seats, the level of service outshone the competition. It is my preferred airline for a stop in HKG and onward to SYD & / or MEL.

However First Class is no longer available to SYD or MEL.

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I'm a huge fan of Cathay Pacific too, though I've yet to sample their latest Business Class cabin. I am about to subject myself to Cathay's Economy seat however, if for no other reason than so that I can comment personally on it.

With reference to their First Class product however, and to those offered by some other 'benchmark' carriers, it's always worth remembering that BA offers First Class cabins on 82 of its aircraft currently. Cathay, by contrast (and only offered as an example as it's the airline du jour of these latter posts), fly just 38 aircraft with First. Commedably, at least all Cathay's First Class seats are broadly the same; consistency being the achilles heel of more than a few others'.

Moreover, as has been alluded to above, the customer profile of the much larger BA fleet's passengers, which in no small part drives the level of competition on those routes, is quite different to that of Cathay's.

It remains to be seen which of the non-Middle East carriers' products will prove the most sustainable; it's notable however that Cathay, along with others including oneworld partner Qantas, is retrenching with regard to the number of aircraft and routes carrying First, whilst it's rumoured that British Airways are actively considering upgrading some routes (most notably Las Vegas) to offer their First product for the first time or by way of re-introduction.

What that says about the respective airlines' cabins in terms of overall commerciality is open to speculation.

Commenting personally once again, and having only sampled the new BA First cabin on board the 777 aircraft, I felt very comfortable in it indeed and appreciated the unique environment that's been created with the seat, the window treatment and the lighting. It's memorable as a function of its distinctiveness and, for that reason alone, is bound to generate stronger opinion than less distinctive cabins.

It is also quite true to say that the seat itself is 110% new; there's not a single solitary part that's a carry-over.

Many thanks for coming back with the review Binman - it's always good to read what others think as a result of real-world experience.

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In the interests of transparency

Airline/ Fleet size*/Fleet with F cabin/% of fleet

BA 224 82 37

CX 106 38 36

*not including freighters.

So, allowing for the difference in fleet size, the percentage of aircraft with F is similar.

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Contintental Club

It is interesting to hear that the new F seat is all new.

Unlike Binman62, I have not flown this cabin, but having spent some time in the old F cabin, the seat does look remarkably similar.

Echoing Martyn Sinclair's post earlier on the thread, I really can't justify the difference in fare between the excellent Club World seat and First and nothing I have read on this thread makes me think I will change my view. As MS says, one spend the majority of the time sleeping.

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Dear DisgustedofSwieqi,

Whilst I agree with the math, perhaps something else to consider in the discussion. I don't believe CX have any single-aisle aircraft like A320-family or B737-family. If we strip these out, and look at BA vs. CX I suggest this looks very different?

I know very little about CX. However, in my limited experience in Intra-Asian travel (SIN-KUL, BKK-TPE, SIN-DPS, HKG-SIN) the regional aircrafts used by Asian carriers is clearly different to a 2-2½ hour flight in Europe. Few, if any, of my Intra-Asia trips have been on 3-class aircrafts.

I believe the comparison is a bit "apples to oranges" if you keep BA's short-haul flight in the mix.

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Hi Senator

I was just stating the facts on fleet size and F cabins, not comparing the operations.

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Hi,

I understand, and I tried to in vague terms say I didn't think it was relevant given the different composition of the fleet ;-) I guess we will agree to disagree on this point.

I would like to address the F vs. J/C cabin. Today, many C/J products are stellar. I like BA CW and I spend a fair amout of time in the new LX C/J cabins. I have never purchased a First ticket, but used miles /vouchers to upgrade, or twice been upgraded for operational reasons.

If I upgrade, I do it during day flights and on flights where I have the time to enjoy the overall experience from the check-in, to the arrival service. On overnight flights, when my primary goal is to sleep I agree First is not necessary.

The leap from eco to bus is greater than from bus to First in my view. However, it is the fine details of First that make the difference ;-)

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"The leap from eco to bus is greater than from bus to First in my view. However, it is the fine details of First that make the difference"

I agree with you.

However, if delivered inconsistently, it impacts the experience, per Binman's comments about being escorted to the seat.

I have flown F on EK more than any other airline and find their service inconsistent. On a good day, it's fab, on a bad day it leaves a very poor taste.

Club world suits me fine, although I find that Jet Airways seat is slightly more comfortable, the seat is fab, the food barely acceptable (but I don't fly to eat) and the soft product does very much depend on the crew, on th day.

In conclusion, I agree with you that the difference between Y and J is huge, J and F less so.

I can foresee, for instance with Air New Zealand's new product, that J will become the new F and W will become the new J on some airlines.

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But if that happens, it will reduce the margins for the airlines themselves and impact profitability.

Where an airline offers four cabins, it is important to differentiate between them; Air NZ is an odd example to choose as its route network is generally ultra longhaul and rather limited, and it doesn't offer a genuine First Class offering.

It's a great airline, but its profile is very different from that of BA, and the comparison is not really very apposite in this example.

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Vintage Krug

Please read my post and try again. 2/10 for this effort and 1 of those for spelling your name correctly.

Your comments absolutely miss my point.

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DisgustedofSwieqi I'll be quite honest and say that I think I'm missing your point slightly too with reference to Air New Zealand as an indicator of future trends, though I absolutely agree with your thoughts regarding finer details, consistency, Club World and Jet Business.

NZ is a rather unique first world airline. It's 75.5% owned by the New Zealand government, and was almost bankrupt as recently as ten years ago. It has a comparatively tiny fleet, and some exceptionally longhaul routes. Two of those routes, which both terminate in London, are of the 'onward sector' variety: a flying pattern that is largely being withdrawn by the majority of carriers on the grounds of efficiency. Indeed, the Hong Kong transiting service has already been scaled-back by NZ, despite its relatively recent inauguration.

That said, Air New Zealand's route network is a matter of strategic and political importance, and the ownership structure supports this in a way that a purely privatised business may not be able to.

That route network does play havoc with equipment utilisation (and yield pressures) as well; their six-hour overnight Perth-Auckland service is operated by a 767 with a traditional Business Class (non-cradle) seat. By contrast, 777s with the fully-flat Business Premier product are scheduled onto the much shorter Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne routes - but only on certain rotations.

Despite that and in the last year or so, the normally 777 operated Narita service has seen 767s on it - 11 hours in a Business Seat with no fare variation from the 777 services.

Air New Zealand withdrew their First Class cabin when they made the change to Pacific Premium and Business Premier, following the likes of KLM who removed First some years previously. Since that time however, the majority of longhaul carriers have continued to invest in their First cabins, notwithstanding the likes of Cathay and Qantas reducing the number of routes/aircraft offering it.

The point, therefore, is that there is no discernible trend towards the abolition of longhaul First Class amongst major carriers - Lufthansa, Air France, Cathay, Singapore, Etihad, Emirates, American, British Airways etc - and Air New Zealand's new PE product, which no-one has yet flown (and which will only ever be present on 13 aircraft) doesn't necessarily give any indication as to where the global market will proceed in the coming years.

And NZ Business Premier, as good as it is, could never be described as a First Class product and would not be considered as such by the vast majority of Cathay, Singapore, Emirates or BA's revenue First passengers, upon whose income these airlines depend. Indeed quite recently the CEO of Cathay pointed out that he'd need 20 Economy passengers to match the yield of just one First Class passenger.

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Continental Club

I was illustrating that by creating an innovative premium economy, airlines can choose to operate a differentiated three class system; my reference to ANZ was because their new premium product looks very good.

I doubt that the ANZ premium economy will be available for the same price differential as WT+, for example, as the products do seem to be aimed at a different audience. (and for the record, I find that WT+ with BA offers very good value for money, especially for leisure in my case.)

So contrary to Vintage Krug's assertion, the margins will not necessarilty be squeezed, its all a matter of loads and yields, as ever.

You will also have read that I said 'some' airlines may use W as the new J and J as the new F (not all) and I agree with your comments about LH, AF, CX, who may well find it lucrative to maintain an F cabin. It's a question of what fits their niche.

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My wife and I are flying First next Tuesday on BA0025 to HongKong. Hope it will be the new First. I'll report back if it is.

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BA 25 is an excellent way to sample F - old or new ! Especially after a couple or more hours in the Concorde room.

The arrival time into HKG is also ideal, into town by about 2.30 and checked in to your hotel soon after.

Four Seasons is our favorite - exec club on the 43rd is outstanding !

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you have to try emirates first class on their A380, amazing, total privacy and really comfortable and wide seats. you can really lie on your side or front and sleep unlike on BA which I dont find that wide or comfortable. I am loyal and like BA but very tempted by emirates first, their widescreen TV was nearly as large as mine at home

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Any update on the refit progress. Last information ii had was only 2 of the 747 fleet had the refit? Anyone know if this has has changed? And what about the 777s?

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So far the new cabin has been introduced on 11 aircraft, including Boeing 777s and 747s, and will eventually be carried on 75 aircraft.

You can read more here:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23888224-downturn-demand-for-our-new-pound-4500-first-class-seats-is-flying-high-says-ba.do

p.s. I think this article is also posted to another topic.

Regards,

Potakas

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Is NF fitted on all the new 777-300s?

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All new 777-300ERs are fitted with new BA First at BA's Cardiff maintenance centre, prior to final handover to BA at Heathrow.

Expect 3-4 aircraft per month to get new First, and this could increase depending on maintenance schedules and various other factors.

A really excellent British Airways new First Trip report here:

www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/trip_reports/read.main/178062

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Does anyone know what BA are doing with the old first class seats? Would be great to get my hands on one, could be nice to have it in my office somewhere. After all the time I've spent in one in the last 15 years and in spite of the fact that I'm glad to finally see it go, keeping one for old times sake would be fun.

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According to BA Highlife, the seats themselves are removed at British Airways' maintenance facility at Cardiff Airport during refits.

From there, they are taken to British Airways Interior Engineering's facility at Ystrad Mynach (about 30 miles away), where there are 230 people working continuously on interior fitment maintenance and repair.

Over the course of a year, they'll service 11,000 passenger seat units, 1,200 crew seats and 1,400 evacuation slides.

BA aim to recycle 80%-85% of their seats, utlising parts from no-longer installed units to keep remaining examples operational. The only part of a seat that's not, apparently, recyclable is the leather.

They even send some seat skeletons back to manufacturers for their re-use.

So, by the time that the new First Class cabin refit is complete, I'm afraid that there really won't be very much left to pick over, and I doubt that there'll ever be an opportunity to own one.

I do agree though, I'd quite like one!

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Thanks cc, perhaps I should glance at that magazine sometimes, I would learn something. No waste at British Airways then hey! No doubt the skeletons will be resurrected somewhere else.

We recently had to have one of those seats dismantled a little earlier than BA had planned for on a flight from Miami. Most embarrassingly, my partner lost an iPhone through the crack of the seat about two hours before landing. The CSD along with two other crew worked for 90 minutes on their hands and knees trying to dislodge it but to no avail. They were great, there were loads of laughter as you can imagine even though they were officially on strike from the moment they landed that morning. In the end we had to wait for maintenance to come on board after landing and they had to completely unscrew the seat and remove it to get to the phone. Click here to see the pics:

http://s1085.photobucket.com/albums/j438/fctraveller/BAFCMIALHR/

And a link I came across this morning, A Day In The Life of Willie Walsh. It has scenes of the new First on a flight from Gatwick to Barbados. Willie had to go there for business and I can't help but think that one of the newly fitted 777s was commandeered on to that route that day for him (he can't be that lucky). So if you want to fly new First, just find out where Willie is going next. It's a BBC video, I hope those of you outside the UK will still be able to view it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/fast_track/9120113.stm

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I am travelling to Cape Town at the end of March. Does anyone know if the new First is on this route yet or will it be by March?

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@Ryanlewis - no route is guaranteed to have new First until all aircraft have the new product. It is just hit or miss at the moment since aircraft are rotated on varying routes. I plugged in one 747-400 aircraft registration that I know has new First, and the flying schedule is so random: LHR-NRT-LHR-JNB-LHR-JFK-LHR-HKG-LHR-SFO-LHR-CAI-LHR-LAX-LHR... so you see there aren't really definite patterns for a particular aircraft. With more and more aircraft carrying new First, your chances are improving!

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@Ryanlewis - Its highly unlikely that you will get new First. There have only been 4 rotations of aircraft with BF fitted to CPT since July 2010.

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On 747 routes, there are currently far more 747's fitted with the new First that also feature the High J 70 seat Club configuration. So far as I am aware only one 747 with mid J is fitted with new First.

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I am flying to Delhi on friday on a 777 travelling in first. I believe that it has the new first on this route. can anyone enlighten me?

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It very much depends on which rotation you are on. I believe that currently the BA142/143 rotation is served by the news 777-300ERs, all of which have new First fitted, whereas the BA256/257 rotation is served by the 747-400, some of which have new First fitted.

As VK would say - operational changes may occur, you may not be served by the aircraft in the timetable, so (especially with the 256/7 service) expect old First and be surprised if it is new.

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I flew ba first class to Delhi as planned and was on the new 777-300. i have to say i was very dissappointed with the aircraft. The new first was nice.... comfortable seating and the much more private than the old first. .....but i could not help feeling that it was a slightly over sized version of the new club world and that 'special' feeling has gone..............it was rather sterile and very dark. i got the impression that we were treated like everyone else on board and that the crew were just going though the motions like in all classes..........a bit dissappointing considering the cost of the ticket! For instance the food was less than mediocre and i have had better food in club.........and the washrooms are a disgrace for first class .......no different to economy.......unlike certain other middle eastern carriers that have fullsize washrooms with mirrors etc ...........i am sad to say that first class on ba is not what it used to be and that' exclusive' air is no longer.............especially when most of our fellow passengers in first talked non stop about how they were upgraded from club to first .....and it was obvious they were not gold card holders...!..................

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I could not agree more with the previous post. The bar has been lifted high on First Class, either in product, service or both. I am afraid that BA does not excel in either area. shame that they seem to have no-one who samples other carriers to see where improvement is needed. Not exactly rocket science.

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It would be interesting to hear where pax are genuinely not satisfied with new F,whether its due to the new cabin layout or the manner of the cabin crew.

I would be thoroughly unimpressed if I was travelling F and the cabin crew were treating me as if I was in economy, both in their attitude and service levels. What would be interesting to hear is whether a top rate cabin crew service in F, would provide more positive feedback. Most of the criticism appears to come from pax who have experienced poor service and then go on to criticize or complain about the new cabin design (apart from the high tech windows).

I have experienced the new F on 2 flights. My honest opinion of the new cabin was that it was not as memorable or as noticable because the crew were so absolutely fabulous, it was they who made the flight so memorable.

Back to 60J next time.............

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To be fair to BA, I think what their biggest problem is their Business Class level. It is so high that they struggle in differentiating their First (haven't flown the new First yet)!

Also talking about the Middle Eastern competitors, I would be interested in listening to pax who actually flew First on BA and a Middle Eastern one (putting on the side the "Cabins" first class that btw are probably not making sense economically speaking)...

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I've flown BA first (a long time ago), also Swiss and Emirates.

BA first crew were superb, as were Emirates, with Swiss being noticably less so, e.g. overstating everything including loudly explaining the dinner, course by course, at 0300, when some of use were tucked in and trying to sleep.

What BA service is like these days, I don't know, but I think Martyn calls it right when he says "the new cabin was that it was not as memorable or as noticable because the crew were so absolutely fabulous, it was they who made the flight so memorable."

My (6) EK sectors were all on A330, with an okay, but far from great F cabin, however the service was so good, it was irrelevant.

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I flew LHR - LAX in New First last month. It was my first time flying from T5. The flight was almost perfect, with just some minor niggles.

1. At check-in, when I asked where to go next (Security), confused expressions from BA staff. A T5 newbie surprised them.

2. Concorde lounge exceptional, except I was asked to retain knife and fork from my starter to use for my main course, and the servers wine knowledge was limited to Red / White / Champagne.

3. While the seat (1K) was excellent, the little light was broken. Cabin ambiance tranquil and relaxed.

4. Despite only 5 PAX in the cabin, my first choice main course was not available. Menu was Upper middle class (Club World of the nineties) rather than the first class of yester year.

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Also, this was a high J flight, so 1st and two rows of CW where allowed off before Upper Deck CW and Main deck 2nd cabin CW.

I was greeted by name and escorted to my seat. Cabin service was exceptional but discreet, and showed no signs of the recent industrial unrest.

CSD checked I was OK at the start, in the middle and at the end of the flight.

In any of my shareholders are reading, it was a 'Welcome back to BA gratis upgrade' that got me into First.

Well done BA and thank-you.

PS - Poo was V-Tatt and Red was Chat Laff - Yum.

I have taken photos, albiet poor quality iPhone 3G efforts. Not sure where to post online.

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Just returned from Hawaii where LHR-LAX was with BA and LAX-HNL was AA. LHR-LAX we were lucky and had New First and LAX-LHR was 'old' First so good to do comparison. So what's different? NF is nice and new(!), a bit more personal space. Your own little (it is!) locker is a nice touch but only if you have a light jacket to hang up. Nice little space for your shoes in the bottom of the locker. Although I like the bigger IFE screen, I wonder why they couldn't have better picture quality. Movies seemed slightly fuzzy. With these brand new systems I thought they might be able to offer HD quality? I found the new window 'system' a bit of a gadget. It certainly did not enhance my First experience! The new colour scheme in the cabin is modern, clean and elegant.......... and that's about it! The old First is beginning to look a bit tired, but I was no less comfortable than in NF. In fact, when dining with my wife, I found the the 'buddy' seat in old F better. The NF 'buddy' seat has less width at seat and shoulders (due to inside screen of new window system), so had to sit a bit hunched up.

The day before LHR departure I called You First to see if we would be getting the NF cabin. They said no and I felt quite disappointed. Great surprise to once onboard though. Now that I have flown both however, I can say that I would be very happy with either.

I agree with previous posts - what really makes the difference between First and the rest is the service. Maybe we were lucky but service on our flights was excellent. Personal and attentive without being snobby or intrusive. Although we were not greeted by name on boarding, we were addressed by name during the flight. I'm not going to complain about that! The food was very good. No problems with selection availability and the First cabin was full in both directions. Also, the Concorde Room at T5 is the best 'lounge' I have ever been in (now if the NF seats were like those armchairs....!!!) and I totally agree that it should be reserved for First customers only (no matter how many Exec Club Gold cards you have!).

Is NF worth the extra £'s over CW? If someone else is paying - yes! If my money - no. I would, however use BA miles to upgrade from CW to First anytime.

To Vintage Krug, who ages ago, in a reply to me in this forum, said that I would not be disappointed if I did not experience the New First - you were right. I found flying First in 'old' and 'new' equally enjoyable.

Thanks BA too!
PS. AA's First from LAX-HNL-LAX really is not worth mentioning!

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