Hello everyone,

well now we know, there is to be a strike after all. I do not think that it will come as a surprise to anyone given that the vote to strike has always, on previous occassions as far as i am aware, been positive.

I am very interested to hear the views of fellow contributors on this issue, particularly people likely to be affected by the strike.

I am also keen to know if anyone can come up with a solution that will stop BA going into more serious trouble or even terminal decline.

Let me be very clear, I absolutely want BA to survive, but it seems that management and unions alike are determind to make that survival as difficult as possible!!

I look forward to reading other posters views.

Safe travels,

Jonathan

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More details on the strike can be read at:

http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/ba-staff-vote-for-strike

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I'm disappointed to see this action, however not entirely surprised.

Given the threat of a strike, I decided to book all travel during the Christmas period (for my family) on another carrier. As a Gold card holder and firm believer in BA's layflat beds (our travel is long-haul), this hurt. But, my decision looks to have been wise.

My sympathies to all whom will have their holidays (severely) disrupted.

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BA has released details of how to rebook if you are affected

https://lfn.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/lfn.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=3917

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"Customers who are booked to travel between 22 December 2009 and 2 January 2009 and for 48 hours on either side of those dates who would like to take their flight at a different time can change to another BA flight departing in the next twelve months at no charge.

If a customer’s flight is cancelled because of industrial action, we will offer them the option to refund their ticket, rebook on to a different flight or reroute their journey on another BA flight. "

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Am honestly astonished by this - 12 days over the Xmas period?! A lot of people are going to lose sympathy with BA staff if this goes ahead.

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BA's INITIAL STATEMENT ON UNITE DECISION

British Airways is extremely disappointed that Unite is planning massive disruption for hundreds of thousands of our customers over the Christmas/New Year holiday period.

A 12-day strike would be completely unjustified and a huge over-reaction to the modest changes we have announced for cabin crew which are intended to help us recover from record financial losses.

Unite’s cynical decision betrays a total lack of concern for our customers, our business and other employees within British Airways.

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And while we're at it.... Virgin Atlantic's

"As with previous disputes, travellers have been switching across to Virgin Atlantic in recent weeks due to the uncertainty of BA strike action.

Virgin Atlantic will do all it can to assist BA passengers who are unable to fly during the strike period. Many of our flights are already busy but we will endeavour to help where we can."

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And here is a message from CEO Willie Walsh

You may have heard that Unite, the union that represents our cabin crew, has threatened strike action between December 22, 2009 and January 2, 2010.

Let me say immediately we will do everything we can to assist you at what will clearly be a very difficult time if strikes go ahead. We are working hard on contingency plans, and will announce them as soon as they are finalised.

We are also urging Unite to return to the negotiating table. There are important issues on which we have asked them to put forward new ideas.

Strike action is completely unjustified.

It's no secret that British Airways is in financial difficulty. Like other global airlines, we have been hit extremely hard by the slump in business travel brought on by the world recession.

We lost £400m last year and will lose at least as much this year. These are the worst financial results in our history. Our revenue is down £1 billion, so reducing costs is absolutely essential even to begin heading back toward profitability and long-term survival.

Many of my colleagues understand this. Our pilots have agreed a pay cut. Our engineers have agreed more efficient ways of working. A third of our managers have accepted voluntary redundancy. And nearly 7,000 colleagues volunteered for salary reductions because they wanted to help this great British company in a time of need.

But our cabin crew union has refused to engage in this process seriously.

My admiration for the professionalism and skills of British Airways cabin crew is second to none. They are an absolutely vital part of our airline, and a great asset. But they have been disgracefully misled by Unite as to how our company-wide cost reduction programme would affect them.

Unite claims that we are trying to "intimidate workers into accepting poorer contracts", forcing crew to leave the company, and "attacking" their pay and allowances.

This is fiction. Our package involves no reduction in terms or conditions for existing crew. Our Heathrow crew will remain the best paid in the industry. Average earnings for cabin services directors are £56,000 on long-haul and £52,000 on short-haul. For junior crew, they are £35,000 and £26,000 respectively. According to the Civil Aviation Authority, average costs of BA crew are twice those of their Virgin Atlantic counterparts.

In fact, despite our financial backdrop, more than 10,000 of our cabin crew will receive pay rises of between two and seven per cent this year, and again next year. In the worst recession since the Second World War, these are increases many employees in other walks of life can only dream about.

We have created opportunities for voluntary redundancy, and more than 1,000 crew have taken that option. Similarly, more than 3,000 crew have volunteered to switch to part-time working.

To accommodate these requests, we have made a small change in our onboard crew numbers from Heathrow, without affecting service standards. Our Gatwick flights have been operating on equivalent crew numbers for years - with Unite's agreement.

Unite's chief complaint seems to be that we are "imposing" the changes at Heathrow. The truth is we had been discussing them with the union for nine months but, despite all the evidence of the company's (and the industry's) financial plight, Unite would not be realistic about the clear imperative to reduce costs.

We could not wait any longer. We moved ahead, making sure that our changes were squarely based on voluntary choices for individuals.

Unite claims the changes affect contractual terms and conditions. We believe they do not. The union failed to gain an injunction to prevent their introduction, but a full court hearing to settle the contractual question has been set for February 2010.

We do not understand why Unite is threatening you with disrupted travel plans now over an issue that the courts are preparing to resolve in a few weeks.

A strike can achieve nothing except huge upset and inconvenience for you. We will do our best to provide as much help and support as we can.

Willie Walsh

Last Updated: 15:22 - 14 December 2009

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/statement/public/en_hk

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I have 4 long haul flights scheduled over the strike period. BA have been very accommodating with changing dates and allowing a window of 12 months for a new flight date.

As a Gold card member I try to maintain my loyalty but it has been increasingly difficult over the last 12 months. I suggest BA will lose a great number of usually loyal passengers [these loyal passengers have endured all sorts of adversity over the last year] when they experience what the competition has to offer. Of course the competition is going to thoroughly enjoy scavenging through the potential 1 million passengers affected by the possible BA strike action. Very very damaging to BA

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All companies make mistakes. It's what they do to put them right that makes the difference. Over to you BA - your next move has the potential to increase long-term loyalty ... or not.

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Hi all,

I am normally someone with full sympathy with the “man/woman” on the street, the people that do the “real” work. I consider myself an average person, and look at my ability to travel for work and fun a privilege; especially as a premium cabin traveller. I am not the most frequent BA traveller but on the occasions I have travelled BA I have always liked it; staff has always been brilliant.

There are always two sides to any story, but this seems like madness. We are in perhaps the worst trading conditions ever for an airline like BA. So far, the BA Management team has asked for voluntary steps to sort the costs out, and now Unite pulls this? I am afraid there will be no sympathies for the onboard staff from us, the customers in this case. With this industrial action, I suspect the BA numbers will look really awful come next report, and the voluntary measures will be in-voluntary severances from now on.

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The turkeys have voted for an early Christmas. A 12 day strike, should it start, will give BA every reason to shut the company down, fire the crew and start again in January. This would be bar far the best option for the company and may at long last allow them to lance this festering boil. Of course this from someone who is not due to fly with BA over Christmas so I am not having my plans disrupted or have any anxiety over what is being proposed.

I for one however am not yet convinced that this will go ahead. It appears to be a shock tactic by the TU and I suspect they may have gone too far. Everyone at BA will be affected including the flight crew and ground staff many of whom will also have plans for the festive season and which now are in very real jeopardy. Crew will become figures of hate not just for BA passengers but to their colleagues also.

It is a great pity that the crew,(who in my experience are world class) are so poorly lead and so poorly served by their 1970’s Trade Unions. I however hope that the company takes the strongest possible stance and ensures that this is the last time they, and the public, are held to ransom in this way.

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Brings a whole new meaning to the Twelve Days of Christmas. All together now:

On the first day of Christmas, Willie gave me to me...

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REVISED: Just spoken to BA.

The situation at the moment is as follows: no flights are cancelled, but the website will not accept bookings for the affected period for any BA flights - that includes LCY and LGW.

If you go on, and it does accept them, that's because it's a big IT job because they are having to close the bookings down on some 7000 flights.

In coming days, they will go through all the crew rosters and work out if there's anyway of running some flights (ie: with crew who didn't vote for strike action), but it's too early to say whether this will be possible or not.

As flights are cancelled (or I should say, if they are cancelled), people will be contacted as per the details on the BA website.

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BA has now released a full statement in reaction to the strike vote:

British Airways is extremely disappointed that Unite is planning massive disruption for hundreds of thousands of our customers over the Christmas/New Year holiday period.

A 12-day strike would be completely unjustified and a huge over-reaction to the modest changes we have announced for cabin crew which are intended to help us recover from record financial losses.

Unite’s cynical decision betrays a total lack of concern for our customers, our business and other employees within British Airways.

Thousands of staff across the company have made contributions to the cost reductions that are essential to move the company back toward profitability. Our cabin crew, who are rightly renowned for their professionalism and skills, cannot be exempt from this process.

Our package for them is very fair and reasonable. It reduces no-one’s terms and conditions, and gives most crew pay rises of between two and seven per cent this year and next year. British Airways’ cabin crew are already the best rewarded in the UK airline industry.

Unite says we ‘imposed’ this package, but it was discussed with them for nine months and is largely based on meeting voluntary applications for part-time working and redundancy.

We will not be withdrawing the minor changes we have made to onboard crew numbers from Heathrow, which bring crewing levels into line with equivalent flights from Gatwick. Crew numbers at Gatwick have been in place for many years with Unite’s agreement.

We have made clear to Unite that we want them to talk to us about their ideas for the recruitment of new crew in future when the business is in a position to grow. That invitation remains open.

Unite’s claim that changing onboard crew numbers from Heathrow is a contractual issue, with which we disagree, will be resolved by the courts in February. A 12-day strike over Christmas and New Year can have no effect in determining this issue.

Willie Walsh, British Airways chief executive, said: “A strike is senseless – and we urge Unite to draw back. We will not be reversing our changes to onboard crew numbers. They have allowed us to accept more than 1,000 requests for voluntary redundancy – and those former colleagues have left the business.

“Unite must understand that there can be no return to the old, inefficient ways if we want to ensure long-term survival in the interests of our customers, shareholders and all our staff.

“They have no justification for threatening such extreme action. It is very sad that they are seeking to use the Christmas holiday plans and family reunions of hundreds of thousands of people to try to pursue their case.”

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I notice BA are asking customers to call them on an 0844 number which is often more expensive to call than 01, 02 or 03 numbers. Personally, I think this is a bit of a cheek. According the website www.saynoto0870.com this number is linked to the geographic number 0191 490 7901.

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This has been a clear outcome with 92% of BA staff voting to strike, even though some threads on BT stated it was a "militant Minority". Well it isn't is it?

We all knew this was coming. It is not the first strike on BA, or the first time services will be in chaos, so all have had enough time Not to book with them, & my friends & colleagues who do choose BA have avoided them. Many already simply choose other carriers, that in these difficult times, eagerly await the business.

I am sad for the crews that feel their voice is not heard. Clearly for the Customers who will have no flights, or have to pay again, IF, they can find alternatives at these busy time. It may well ruin globally, families getting together. In every country, BA's reputation will be damaged.

This is a symptom of B A Senior Management's team. They have taken a once great Airline, de-moralised its staff to this point. I have a friend that knows 7 CSD's in BA. They voice they can no longer deliver a service to the level & expectation they were trained to. It is not purely about money its attitude towards them, resources being so constrained & they have as one put it "Come to detest BA Management, dread going into work with Morale so low & a service reputation that is in the past."

As for any Business, this action is a symptom of a crisis, failed Management. No other Airline in the world, has been managed in this way. No other Airline will be damaged so much when this occurs. Every other Airline have the same issues to face, but 90%+ of yr workforce ?

This will create one of the final Terminal blows to the future of BA. Its a worldwide PR disaster. I am very sad for all concerned, Customers, Staff teams, & the loss to the UK Economy to which this will contribute, but not surprised.

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MarkRoberts9...what utter tosh......It is not BA management that are striking it is a poorly lead and thoroughly misguided group of staff of have for too long been disconnected from the the rest of intelligent life. The plans are utterly dispropotionate and clearly designed to bring about either a coup at BA or misery for nearly a million people. I am fortunate not to be one but frankly I hope BA take them on and lance this festering boil that has for so long held the company and its customer to ransom. Todays union meeting would have made a great backdrop to the last episode of "ashes to ashes" it was just so 1970's. These people are dinosaurs.

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Yet another degrading use of the Forum Binman!

I think Tom Ottley has warned against this sort of statement... "Festering boils" out of touch with intelligent life? If you cant make an intelligent argument you have been asked to Keep out by The Editors here.

So i suppose all those that choose to fly BA are out of touch with Intelligent life, so they must be the same..is that the implication!

This "Forum" is being abused by such stupid comments, legally liable, & people who have no idea how to pout forward a view in an adult manner. There have been so many complaints in one week i am told..it is not a platform to degrade contributors or insult others. If it continues, then there will need to be some Applied rules, more banning of people, Or simply close it down.

If Unite, BA Crew, or passengers who use BA see yr comments, BT will soon have legal action against them. They don't provide a Forum for this low level, un-intelligent comment.

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Complete twaddle MarkRoberts9.

As usual yet more inflammatory comments from you towards those who take a more considered perspective and your anti Walsh "my best friend was made redundant by BA" bandwagon.

As ever, no direct, personal experience as you haven't flown the airline in years.

All your insight gained from a "a friend who knows 7 CSDs". I have friends who know Jeremy Clarkson, doesn't make me an expert on being a motoring journalist.

This is entirely Union inflicted; many BA staff have been woefully mislead by their Unions, and it is these very staff who will suffer most in this ill-judged industrial action.

THAT Union is the festering boil, and quite rightly described as such.

Name me one firm for which strike action to the long term benefit of the company or the employees themselves. Just one.

This strike, and the distress and upset it will cause to many, is an indictment of the management of Unite, and that is where most right-thinking people both on here and elsewhere will firmly lay the blame.

If they think they can do it better, let them set up and run an airline themselves.

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We are due to travel 21 Dec so may not be affected but I think the staff are living in a different world from the rest of us. I am self-employed. If I refuse to work, the customer goes elsewhere. Why do BA staff think customers wont do likewise? Without customers, I have no work and no income. Recently I have had to travel with LOT and Aer Lingus because BA have stopped some flights to Poland. As far as i could see, the cabin staff were doing exactly what BA cabin staff do. So why would BA want to pay more than LOT or Aer Lingus? I can see the existing staff dont want to lose beneficial arrangements

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VK- I don't have any friend who was made redundant by BA. I do have one who resigned 18 months ago stating the exact issues that have come to a head today, that are slowly eating away BA's ability to even continue to exist. (You do seem to have a rather imbalanced fixation on this...!)

The Share price wont be going up for much longer? £3.7 Billion pension deficit, reported on BBC news just alone. As for the "Naming a Company" re strikes, indeed i cannot name one Airline in the world that has reached these depths of staff relations. 92% of the crew referred to as "festering boils /out of touch with intelligent life" in the new low depths of the comments above, with an 80% turnout. In any Company that represents a crisis of the fundamentals of management.

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In many ways I should have little or no personal interest in the situation - I travel almost exclusively within the UK, have never flown with VS, SQ, EK etc that long haul flyers at least have the option of when things aren't going right with BA, and live over 2 hours away from the nearest airport they now serve. But I'm passionate about BA, when your norm has become Flybe and easyJet (not to mention that ****** pier 1 at Gatwick south), to fly with BA - and especially if departing from T5 - has become something of a comparative luxury, dare I say even worth the road / rail journey. My local colleagues feel the same, and if anything this will just further threaten the already declining domestic route network, also seen with BMI.

For my sins I'm also a member of Unite - these successive union mergers mean they cover a multitude of sectors - and this isn't the first time where I've considered my membership to be verging on hypocrisy around disputes in the transport industry.

Hope none of you planned to fly in on BA for the BT forum posters' union (in the get-together sense)....

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Hello everyone,

why is it that once again a thread is deteriorating into a slanging match between the usual suspects. People are entitled to their opinion whether for or against the unions or the management as the cause of this dispute, but that DOES NOT give anyone the right to use inappropriate language.

Rather than having a go at each other, I would like to read the sensible well thought out arguments of posters as to how the dispute could be resolved.

It has now become a bit personal for me as my sister and her family are due to fly to Tel Aviv with BA for my nephews Barmitzvah and it looks like, if the strike goes ahead then they will not be at what is a very important day in our nephews life. Before you all come down on me like a ton of bricks, I know that many people are in a similar situation with regards to family reunions at Xmas.

One final point on which your views would be welcome is the way that BA are going about dealing with the potential problem. My sister was told that for the moment they have to turn up for the flight and if it is cancelled then BA will do there best to organise alternatives flights. for me this is not acceptable as the chances of their being seats on other carriers on the day is very unlikely. Why are BA not rebooking people now or refunding money so that people can sort themselves out if BA will not do it for them yet.

Surely by acting now BA could save some of their disgruntled customers a lot of inconvenience and minimise the number of ruined Xmas holidays. Doing nothing now is just going to alienate people further.

I look forward to reading the thoughts of others on this matter.

Safe travels,

Jonathan

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Hi Jonathan

Although personaly unaffected by this debacle, I think your point about the unreasonableness of holding people to flights that cannot be guaranteed is well made.

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As I see it this is in many ways a old fashioned union v management dispute with greedy,over protected cabin crew trying to hang on to unsustainable privileged working conditions being used as pawns in a bigger game.

The frightened angry cabin crew ,who are not in fact being asked to give much, have been alienated by an inept Willie Walsh to such an extent that they don't trust him or the BA management to deliver them a secure future The aggressive fading union Unite have seen an opportunity for glory and Willie Walsh appears to have used the negotiating skills of Mr.Punch in dealing with the union / cabin crew concerns If this strike goes ahead there will only be losers and BA as we know it will likely disappear.

As I see it Willie Walsh has handled the cabin crews insecurities appallingly and is the major cause of the escalation of this dispute. He is unfortunately a rather small man with a large ego and little charm who uses the heavy hand when a light touch is needed. Very capable of running BA the business but not BA the people To his work force he presents as a classic overbearing villain boss and he has lost the trust of the his workers. The Unite union has has predictably grasped with both hands the opportunities presented by Welsh's inept performance and are leading the cabin crew on a path of self destruction.

The cabin crew, as I understand it, are not a militant bunch by nature and many (most ?) have no liking or affinity with unions but they want if possible to hang on to most of arguably the best T and Cs in the industry. However most do have an underling understanding that they must move towards accepting new T and Cs that reflect BAs ability to continue as a viable business

This dispute has to be a arbitrated and soon with Willy Welsh hopefully removing himself from front line negotiations as it seems that he has become the elephant in the room. It could be that finally the only way forward is for Welsh to resign and then the cabin crew will likely feel that they can then trust BA management .Unite will then have lost its relevance and power and members may well push the union to call off the strike.

Walsh's plan for BAs survival may well be correct but he has failed to take his work force with him,and in doing so given the union an opportunity to destroy BA. He cannot now win by digging in and attempting to bully the cabin crew into submission. The cabin crew don't trust Welsh and Unite has seen its chance of gloriously destroying BA and the jobs of the cabin crew for its own ends.

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Due to the threat of this strike, and now the reality of it soon to happen, I have cancelled my trip with BA for next Sunday and have had to re-book my next trip to Orlando with an American (Continental Airlines) carrier. This is the first time in over 20 years that I will fly a US carrier on a long haul flight. Does anyone know what their club/business class product is like? I feel sorry that the crew have been misled into this strike by the leaders of UNITE, and only hope it is quickly resolved. What a shame for everyone travelling during this period, such chaos!

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To be frank, I have had enough of reading threads on this forum which degenerate into a slanging match between contributors. That's not what I used to come to this forum to read. After the editors requested for this to end on another thread, I thought a line had been drawn. Obviously, that has not happened.

I had been considering stopping reading these forums for a few weeks, but after the editor comments on another thread, I thought I would continue to give it a try. Enough is enough, I am stopping reading these forums and will go back to reading the magazine only. Good bye.

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Dutchyankee,

In regards to CO, I have been on their service in BusinessFirst on the 757-200s from ARN to EWR a few times. While the seats are old (cradle) I really enjoy the entertainment system and the F&B service. The US Domestic First service on CO is vastly better than UA or US...

Staff is attentive, but chatty... There are certain crew members that only fly ex.ARN, ex.OSL, ex.CPH, and ex.HAM as they find the Scandinavians easy to deal with in both classes.. I have met the same crew ex.ARN.

Overall, I think you will enjoy it. The seat could be the issue. However, I'll take a good cradle seat any day over the lie-flat slide down seats of some airlines.

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Hi Senator, thanks for that. I have read some very good comments on CO, and I know they have won awards, so I am actually looking forward to it (try something new). I certainly agree about lie-flat style seats where you end up sliding, or the footrest is too short for my 6,3 height. Very glad to hear about your service experiences with them. I think I am on a 767-400, we are blocked in 1 A and B both exit BRU and EWR (from EWR it is a 737-900). I also heard that like what you said their domestic F is better than all the others, so much happier now with my choice, thanks for the info.

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Hi again,

One note... The 767-400 does not have AVOD, only the 777-200 and 757-200. It could be that your 737-900 will have Direct TV onboard.

I am on a CO 757-200 from SJU to EWR in Jan myself in BusinessFirst.

By the way, I believe LH has FRA-MCO as well. Perhaps this is another alternative in the future.

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One extra bit of news

BA CityFlyer to operate LCY schedule

http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/ba-cityflyer-to-operate-lcy-schedule

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Thanks again Senator. I was aware of LH to MCO as I often have seen their A340-600 on the gate next to Virgin and BA when I am departing MCO, but to be honest I have always avoided LH in deference to BA. Might be worth a try though as I understand they do have First on the route which BA hasn't had for over three years (change from 747 to 777).

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I'm booked to fly from Gatwick to Tampa on the 23rd returning the 2nd. I've just been told by BA that my flight is not affected by the strike and I cannot make any change to my flight; no reason given (and nothing in writing) other than its because the flight leaves from Gatwick. I understand that the "crewing" issues which are at the heart of the strike are moot with respect to Gatwick flights as flights leaving from Gatwick already fly with one less crew member. But, does this mean that Gatwick crews in general are not striking; or are not part of the Unite Union? If anyone has any insight it would be appreciated.

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Hi Croster, I was on my regular LGW-MCO trip about three weeks ago, and when taliking to one of the Flight Attendants regarding the possibility of the strike he said he wasn't going to strike, and that the vast majority of the Gatwick based crews were against the strike. This is of course only one member I spoke to, but it seemed as if the Gatwick Crews would be less likely to participate. None-the-less, not willing to run that chance during the hoilday season, I cancelled my tickets for this coming Sunday with a return during the strike as I want to be certain to have a seat. You should, however, be allowed to change your booking and BA should be willing to assist you, especially as they can not guarantee any flights during the strike period.

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Thanks Dutchyankee. Its interesting. I was told by BA that I could NOT change my flight contrary to what BA has stated on their website (anyone see any carve out for Gatwick flights?). Well, I bought fully refundable back ups on CO in case my BA flight gets cancelled. Thanks for the info!

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LGW crews are covered by the Gatwick Agreement which was negotiated between Unite and BA Management some years ago, I believe; this incorporates many (though not all) of the modest crewing changes and working practices which have been brought in from mid-November at LHR, and these are the very same changes which Unite claim are the reason for the strike.

So, bizarrely , they seem to be striking over changes they themselves have negotiated in another part of the organisation.

While I would imagine there will be some impact at LGW, it is more likely to be less impact than will be the case at LHR.

LCY crews also seem to be operating normally during the strike, which suggests there is already sign of this 12 day nonsense cracking.

A real waste, as by then the Union will have done all the damage to BA’s reputation, and will not achieve whatever it is (that is unclear) they are setting out to achieve for their members.

And Unite has caused untold distress to many customers planning their annual trip home.

I would imagine it won’t be long before Unite/BASSA realise the own-goal they have caused both to their members and the public by planning such an extensive Industrial Action over the Christmas period.

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I have only just joined as a member and I agree with FrequentTraveller's comments about the threads degenerating into a slanging match. Some members appear to have issues with each other and seem to take comments very personally. Helpful advice from personal experiences would be much more constructive, although some of the comments are quite witty!

I think everyone is agreed that the forthcoming strike action will be disastrous for everyone concerned; passengers, crew, management and the airline as a whole.

Many years ago I flew as Cabin Crew for Virgin Atlantic and now repatriate sick UK nationals from worldwide destinations and have done this for over 22 years.

BA crew were always teasing us (as VS crew) about our poor wages and how Virgin crew worked so hard compared to them. Things have improved at VS for crew considerably but as a passenger I would be extremely reluctant to use them for my travel plans.

If using a scheduled carrier, my first choice would always be BA as their medical clearance department are excellent, and I always feel safe with them, especially when accompanying a patient.

As a BA Gold card holder and previous VS crew member I can see both sides of the argument. However, BA crew have had it too good for too long with regard to their terms and conditions, especially their allowances ex LHR which for long haul are very generous.

The aviation industry changed drastically after 9/11 and will probably sadly never be the same again, and there have to be drastic changes for the airline to survive. I think BA caused itself problems previously in so much as it had a very elitist and somewhat colonial attitude, ie it used to fly to destinations that were non profitable but felt it had to because it was the British national carrier. Like many airlines already have done, I think they should scrap First either completely or on the majority of its routes. Getting rid of the pointless washbags they give out in First and Club World and simply having a stock of toiletries on board might also save some cash. I realise these are only small changes but together with changes to terms and conditions (primarily financial ones), and a reduction of crew members on board the aircraft to a safe level, they may make a difference.

I know many BA crew as friends but i do think they are being a bit precious about the changes the airline has to make. I also work part-time in an NHS Intensive care Unit where we have seen drastic changes in the way we work, but we have to just get on with it as the patient's would probably suffer if we didn't.

In the current financial climate many of us have had no choice but to make changes to the way we work and to our lifestyles so hopefully BA crew will get real and wake up to the fact that the intended strike action could cost them their jobs in the end.

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Update: BA has released the following statement, saying it is seeking an injunction to prevent the strike going ahead, citing "irregularities in the union’s strike ballot".

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British Airways is commencing legal action in an attempt to protect customers from the massive stress and disruption threatened by Unite’s decision to call a 12-day strike from December 22.

The airline has today written to Unite, highlighting irregularities in the union’s strike ballot, which the airline believes renders the ballot invalid.

The airline called on Unite to call off the industrial action by 2pm today. The union has not done so and British Airways is now seeking an injunction to prevent the strike going ahead.

Today’s letter was the third sent to Unite, pointing out the balloting flaws, since last Friday. The union did not reply to the first two letters.

As a back-up to the legal action, British Airways managers have been establishing which cabin crew might wish to work normally during the strike period.

Willie Walsh, British Airways chief executive, said: “We are absolutely determined to do whatever we can to protect our customers from this appalling, unjustified decision from Unite.

“We do not want to see a million Christmases ruined.

“Unite was told about the problems with its ballot on Friday. Yet it cynically went ahead with an extreme, highly publicised threat to our customers and our business in the knowledge that it might not be able to carry it out.

“We remain available for talks with Unite at any time without preconditions.”

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Credit to the guys at the BA call centre in Manchester. A call totaling 11 minutes enabled me to change 5 long haul flights originally scheduled for the strike period. A professional and calm vibe came across in what must surely be a desperately busy office!

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Update: Virgin has just released a statement saying it will put larger aircraft on "key routes" during the planned strike period:

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VIRGIN ATLANTIC TO PUT BIGGER AIRCRAFT ONTO KEY ROUTES TO HELP PASSENGERS STRANDED BY BA’S INDUSTRIAL ACTION - Around 1600 extra seats will be available over the busy Christmas period

Virgin Atlantic has taken the decision to put larger aircraft on key routes over the 12 days of industrial action which is planned by BA cabin crew in order to be able to carry stranded passengers. Virgin Atlantic has identified a number of flights on routes such as New York (Newark), Boston, Washington and Delhi where it is feasible to operate the flights with larger aircraft.

These selected flights will now be operated by an Airbus A340-600 rather than an A340-300 thereby providing 68 extra seats per flight. The extra seats will go on sale over the next 24 hours. Talking earlier today about the industrial action planned by BA cabin crew, Sir Richard Branson said,

”It is a nightmare for passengers, and you have to feel for them at Christmas time. Any strike would obviously be extremely damaging to everybody - the company, employees and most importantly the travelling public. "

Passengers wishing to book flights should log onto www.virginatlantic.com

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Hmm.

1600 Virgin Atlantic seats into 1 million BA seats snatched by the union from paying passengers goes how many times?

I am off to purchase a chocolate Tea Pot.

*rollseyes* at the VS spin

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Actually VK, there's no spin in that one: Virgin have just said that they will increase capacity where they can. Even SRB doesn't knife BA - he even says how "damaging" it will be to the company.

SRB is savvy enough to know not to slag the unions, because what goes around, comes around.

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Nevermind the America's Dicky, we need extra seats for the Barmy Army down to South Africa :)

On a more serious note, the more and more I think about this, the more likely I feel the strike will go ahead. And that is despite still thinking that it surely cannot happen, can it?

Thankfully, I have rather wisely booked all my flights with LX, SQ, SA and LH.

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goehoveuk, the Olympics are quite a way off - you may think it'll bring good times, but to all other carriers - BA won't be around then if this silly strike goes ahead. Think it through. These are tough time. 60% of the FTSE top 100 companies did not award pay rises this year. One firm, in order to stay in business, chopped 20% of their workforce and reduced everyone's pay by 10%. Take it or leave it. This is the same thing facing BA. They are losing £1.5million per day - how many businesses can survive that? Everyone else has understood this and reacted accordingly - Pilots, mechanics and even management. The only people who not only aren't budging but want between 2% and 7% pay increases are Heathrow based cabin crew. One LGW crew member emailed BBC Breakfast today to advise they'd been working for the past three years at LGW on the same deal that Willie Walsh would like the LHR crew to use. Passenger feedback is very good at LGW, no staff members are dropping in the aisle with exhaustion or fatigue, so they're getting by. The crew member said his (or her) colleagues at LHR should wake up and smell the coffee they are pouring. To try and blackmail a company by using a Christmas strike is vindictive, esp. when Unite have had so many chances to react, respond and negotiate professionally. They have even ignored the chance to look at BA's books - they just don't want to see what financial troubles the airline is in. So overwhelmingly the public, the City and other professionals in the business are very busily agreeing that the turkeys have voted for an early Christmas. What a shame, as so many of the crew are excellent. If they don't feel like they're being remunerated sufficiently, it is time to look for another job. Problem is, they have it too good ex-LHR, nobody else will hire them on similar let alone better packages.

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If BA and the Union spent more time actually negotiating with each other over the past few days then trying to out do each other in the press - then *maybe* there would be hope of resolving this huge problem.

My partner is CC for BA and does not mind working harder with less crew on board, a pay freeze etc BUT the BA management have a long history of lying to staff, renegging on promises and the issues are not as simple as are being portrayed in the media.

I feel sorry for people affected by the potential disruption, but BA & the union can easily put a stop to it by actually sitting down & talking to sort it out - but the underlying hatred between the 2 sides, I fear this won't happen easily - and sadly the CC are taking the flack for it all.

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The crew, and the union are being absolute idiots. Why not just sack all strikers and take on new staff. CSDs to get £40K (and do some work), cabin crew on £20K. Given the current economic climate, there would be thousands who would be perect for the role, and appreciate the job.

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I have all of the above thanks. I also have friends whose Xmas have been wrecked. What I am saying is why not agree to changes that will allow the airline to survive and work like Gatwick colleagues. Those who don't want to work a bit harder for the same money, replace with those who want to work. And why oh why select the time when it will do maximum damage to leisure travellers!?

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At first sight this quotation from George Satanya may seem odd in thecontext of this debate.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Until you read this story from the BBC in 2005

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4330349.stm

Any similarities?

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Do you not think it is an outrage that our national carrier no longer is able (or willing!) to repatriate clients home on a stretcher?

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Hi patcondon. I repatriate UK nationals from wherever I am needed in the World and used to do stretcher cases with BA in the days when they supplied them. It is a pity they stopped it.Their apparent reasoning behind stopping stretcher cases was because they often caused delays which often had knock-on effects when passengers had connecting flights, so I can understand where they are coming from. In my experience It was never the actual patient who caused the delay but usually BA's fault because they had forgotten to send out part of the stretcher or sometimes the engineers at one of their outstations weren't very clued up as how to fit the stretcher on-board. In a lot of cases the patients can come back in Business or First (which often works out cheaper than a stretcher) but there are still many who can't because of the nature of their illness. Lufthansa can provide an excellent mobile intensive care unit on most of their long haul routes but not on flights from Germany to the UK. BMI are looking into providing stretchers but many airlines who previously provided them have stopped primarily because of the problems they can cause.

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I agree. I have just flown from New York to London on BA first class. The staff were dour and the service not at all up to scratch. Then you get one the highest paid cabin crew in Europe striking over the very period when people need it. Oh I understand only too well their technique to obtain as much dirt for their airline as possible. Well my soloution is fire the lot of them and hire folk that want to work. This is way over the top and unacceptable by the travelling public who pay their wages. Talk about bite the hand that feeds me.......

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When my mother recently returned on a Club World flight from Chennai, she asked a member of the cabin crew why her wheel chair had not arrived...reply from cabin crew member "madam, you don't look as if you need a wheelchair" as my mother was standing up. She's a retired Consultant Psychiatrist with a fractured spine......

I have stopped flying BA due to frequent poor service in Club World and the fact that it continues, is simply not on. I'm sure there are a number of excellent flight crew on BA, sadly I personally haven't experienced that.

There may be some valid concerns with the current issues being tabled but people need to realise these are tough economic times for a lot of companies (sorry to state the obvious).

Other airlines such as Virgin, Singapore, etc have had to take on similar drastic measures and as per other comments on this thread, the infectious nature of a Union hasn't had the same impact as at BA.

In the current economic climate, people (including myself) are thankful to be in jobs.....there's no longer the edict of having a "Job for life"....

This uncertainty at BA, together with the You Tube footage of the cheers when the strikes were agreed will not help BA nor its cabin crew for quite some time.....

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All this talk of "never fly with BA again" is simply nonsense. BA is a great airline, indeed one of the best even at their worst. They have gone through many crisis and have come out the other end. This strike threat is yet another crisis and whilst it is very damaging some decent marketing backed by fares to drive volume and recovery, as well as some excellent redemption opportunties, will get people back on board.

We can all point to bad days, individuals crew or crews, or poor ground staff attitudes. The fact is we all have bad days but we get over it.

My money is on a last minute call off by the union which must surely recognise that they have blown it with their ludicrous demands and rather silly 12 days of Christmas strike call.

Read some of the crew forums...they are livid with their TU and had no idea that they planned this. There is very little support on crew forums for this action as the crews plans have also been thrown into confusion. BA offer uber generous ticketing to crew families at this time of year and all this will be lost also.

BA will survive and will prosper because it is well lead, has great staff and a customer base that actually cares about the airline. Very few other firms and almost no airline has such a customer base.

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Binman, when was the last time you flew with any other airline other than BA - this is soon to be 2010 and not 1990 which is the era BA is still in....

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Hello guys.... i am new to this forum, but what I have seen here is that contributors in this forum have lost the idea of main subject. Some replies are personal, and some are emotional. That's human... and it is possible.

In the same manner stated above, cabin crew of BA and Unite also lost the main idea of forming the union. I think the union was formed to protect employees interest, but it seems like they are damaging travellers interest more.

The employment contracts of British Airways when compared to other airlines like Emirates or Singapore are completely different. EK or SQ staff cannot think of industrial action, bcoz they know the consequences after that.

Whereas, BA cabin crew (a majority of them) are permanent staff. They are protected by numerous UK and European union laws. So, here is a case of too much democracy in a country and in a company.... which has got its own downfalls.

So bottomline.......Amend your UK employment laws which will not hold customers to ransom. Cover industries like transport, catering, postal, telecom, healtcare ...... etc under a new law called "ESA". This will be termed as ESSENTIAL SERVICES ACT.... People who are working under these sectors should not threaten a strike in the future.

I know it is difficult, but I see no way out. Over to you people.... please dont pounce on me... it is only a discussion forum.... and please remember to have a merry christmas and happy new year.

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Get real.. !! Again I think there is something with the brian from that Island. Has the Cabin Crew from BA not yet heard about the global crises we are all in? We are happy to keep our jobs, we are working overtime to keep our jobs. We will get no race in 2010 and they will do a strike! I love to fly BA because of there beds in Business, but the cabin crew, are not the best in Europe, not the most helpfull but the best paid and the will get an increase of 2 - 7 % for 2010 and are unhappy!! They have to work while they are in the air for 10 hours.. sorry everybody has to work while they are paid.. we get nothing for free.. they can work with one F/A less on international flights and still will not be overworked, but maybe the Service Director may start to do something for his money? He get's over £ 60'000 a year and is not worth the money the most of the time. So I have no understanding of what's happen here.. !!!

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This year alone CX LH SQ and QF all of which are good but not as good as BA. I realise this is a perosnal view.

The issue I was adressing however was that the talk of never flying with them again. It is heard time and time again but people do and will. If BA handle the recovery right people will again and in a very short time this issue will be forgotten.

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Binman62 - i partly agree with you. People will of course continue to travel with BA - in many cases they have no choice as their company travel policy determines it. And the fact is that BA flies to most of the places we need to go to from the UK, and particularly from London.

However i do feel that the reputation of the carrier is gradually being eroded, and i'm not sure it will ever fully recover, certainly not to the extent of being "The World's Favourite Airline" ever again.

I would still far rather fly with BA than Ryanair, but the margin of difference is closing - no food on short haul flights, paying for advance seating, etc. How long will it be before BA takes on more of the low cost carrier philosophies like charging for food on board or insisting on online check-in only?

In years gone by i would have been proud to have associated BA with Great Britain - how many foreigners now look at the carrier and wish they had a similar airline - not many i'll bet.

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Well I am afraid I am on the side of sanity. This is suicide for the airline. On a long haul flight recently two the Cabin Crew told me they were bored as after serving the meal there was little to do for the next 8 hours until breakfast. Like many, I am off to Virgin. The Cabin crew are greedy and selfish - wrecking the holidays of so many when they have the best pay and conditions of any airline.

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What the strike threat is in practice doing, is giving the passenger the opportunity (need) to sample other product as well. Will most return to BA again (to some degree)? Probably. Will passengers suddenly find him/herself with other viable options (having tasted the competition)? Certainly.

In my personal case I (sensing the winter of discontent), chose to move exclusively away from BA for a 3 month period (November, December and January). I have long since requalified for Gold status and was generally interested (forced) to try other carriers. Over this 3 month period I will have used the Business Class products of Thai, Finnair, Qatar Airways, Lufthansa, Swiss, Austrian, El Al and SAS. Normally this travel would have all been on BA. Will I go back to BA? Yes. Will I in the future however sample other products as well? Yes.

One of the worse acts a for-profit concern can do is to introduce its customers to the competition. They may just like what they find.

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Perhaps with the announcement of FlyGlobespan going under, the crews might wake up to what could be the same end for them. The crews are loosing support, even if they had much, from the public due to the timing. As usual the unions try to be political and spoil any case they may or may not have had.

I am sure that there are many Globspan crews wishing they had the jobs the BA crews do.

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What rubbish. Defending the cabin crew, you are obviously one of them. Take our case. We were to have our Grandmother and two Aunts from the US for Xmas, we have planned it for years ! Now the BA staff have ruined it all for us, thank you so much I will NEVER forget or forgive you for this. You are the highest paid cabin crew in Great Britiain & probably Europe, what a greedy money grabbing bunch. Poor BA, how is it supposed to recover from this ? How is MY FAMILY suppoosed to recover from this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Binman - my apologies - didn't mean to be rude on my reply.....as per the other comments on this thread, the BA Cabin Crew think they are somewhat special when in the current climate we are all working very hard to pay our bills and survive. I have seen colleagues around me made redundant and I've been on a pay freeze for the last 2 years...and I work for a FTSE 10 company....

As the last post says, poor BA - in the good days, the food was great, you were proud to board the flight in a far away land to return home, you would look forward to those lovely smoothies and bacon sarnies on the red eye from Chicago.

The BA Cabin crew have ruined all of this and ruined BA overall - I feel sorry for the other hard working team at BA....

BA will really struggle to recover from this incident - even if the strikes are averted, the long term damage is done....

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Fast Forward to 2010. I am looking to book a summer holiday. I search various travel-price-comparison-websites. BA comes out with a good price, at convenient times I wish to fly. I book, saving myself ££, fogetting the misery of christmas strikes 09 - delighted to have saved money for my summer holiday! We all love happily ever after.

BA will no doubt loose many customers over this misery, but, the majority of people will soon forget and happily book a cheap deal again next year.

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ComeFlywithMe - good for you....lets just hope there aren't further strikes when you're time to travel arrives in 2010

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I need to be clear that I am not connected to BA in any way other than a passenger.

I have no sympathy with the crew or their position.

If I had faced this situation last Christmas, given my personal circumstances at that time, I would have been incandescent with rage and so I have real empathy with everyone who may have their Christmas disrupted.

The fact remains that when the dust settles on this, BA will win back customers from around the globe.

As for countries not wanting BA...try these

Greece / Italy / Belgium / I would argue France along with most of western europe with the exception of LH KL SK / all of the USA!! / The whole of Africa / I could go on....

The reality is BA are a world class airline, with a solid product base and there are in reality very few carriers in this premier league.

This action is damaging, I agree it is a further errosion of its reputation, but not fatal, even if it does happen and that is far from certain...even now.

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So the ballot was illegal........looks like the judge saved Christmas.

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This is good news !

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8418805.stm

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Well what a suprise, the strike is all off, the unions got what they deserved, ..nothing, total dimwits.

Unite must think we all live in 1970's what a joke they look like, I hope they get rolled over again, what a bunch of total 70's misfits

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Hey Cantona

I suppose though this means they may still strike at some stage next year

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Fantastic News. Well done to British Airways for taking Unite to court and showing them up to be rule breakers. Excellent news all round.

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Guess they will, the press and the UK general public though should stand firm against this kind of stupid militant action, I hope BA challenge them over and over again, this kind of action is so out of date.

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Initial reaction from Unite:

On the ruling of the High Court today (Thursday), which has not upheld Unite the union's ballot of more than 12,000 cabin crew members, Unite joint general secretaries Derek Simpson and Tony Woodley said: "While we have never wanted this dispute it is a disgraceful day for democracy when a court can overrule such an overwhelming decision by employees taken in a secret ballot.

"We will of course be studying the judgement, but the fact remains that this dispute is not settled. Passing the buck to the courts to do management’s job for them was never going to be the answer.

“BA must accept that there can be no resolution except through negotiation, failing which there will inevitably be a further ballot for industrial action.

"Given the clear mood of cabin crew about management’s imposition of changes on their working lives, this means that the spectre of further disruption to the company’s operations cannot be removed. Only a negotiated agreement can do that.”

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And from BA:

We are delighted for our customers that the threat of a Christmas strike has been lifted by the court.

It is a decision that will be welcomed by hundreds of thousands of families in the UK and around the world.

There was never any need for a strike and we hope that Unite will take this opportunity to reflect before deciding its next steps. We believe the public would want that too.

In recent days, we believe Unite has formed a better understanding of our position and of the ways in which we could move forward.

It has also become very clear that our customers do not believe that old-style trade union militancy is relevant to our efforts to move British Airways back toward profitability. Financial success is essential to build the kind of business our customers want and provide long-term opportunities for our staff.

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Did anyone else listen to Derek Simpson outside the courts?? - what a bafoon

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Common sense prevails and the idiotic leadership of Unite are firmly back in their box. This was only ever targeted at the travelling leisure public for maximum impact and disruption over Xmas. Go ahead, strike again in January where impact will be minimal as other carriers will happily fill their empty seats at a quiet time of year. Well done the High Court!!!

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Agreed - total baffoon...monthly union payments better given to a charity rather than Unite....very pleased for those who are travelling at Christmas...and credit to BA Management for sorting this out in Court....

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Forgive me for saying this, but some of the posts here are disgusting!

Yes, I wasn't happy as well that I had to change my travel plans for Xmas. Yes, everybody has had a bad experience on board BA in the past, but I've had some bad ones on EK, TG, LH to mention a few.

Guys, a little bit more respect to someone that gives you a glass of water, a paracetamol when you need it, or just someone who chats to you.

I think we tend to mix up very basic things. The service, the seats, the IFE aren't things that have to do with the cabin crew. Their main role is the passengers safety. I hope we're not too arrogant to forget this.

I'm a gold cardholder and I've had some of the best experiences with BA. I've seen some of the other Club passengers, their requests and their class.... You can easily tell who actually paid for their ticket, and who had his ticket paid.

Ba does have some really interesting, well educated people that work in their cabins. I think the cabin crew are an excellent mix of individuals.

Please don't get me wrong. Again, I never agreed with that strike in the first place, however I think it's out of order to put everyone in the same box.

Personally, I'll definitely fly them again and of course I will not let this strike change my mind about the BA cabin crew. I will keep respecting them and I will never use terms such as waiters or whatever else I've seen in here.

P.S. How many of you remember air travel 15 years ago? This goes both for passengers and cabin crew- business class wasn't looking the same back then, was it? And something else, try to think how adaptable any of us are to rapid changes.

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Nobody likes to go on strike however when a senior management team drives an idea that will seriously affect peoples working careers then an individual does have a right to make a stand. BA crew like most airline crew are hard working safety professionals that have a life outside the airline. Surely they are allowed to be well rested and have a home life as well? Bloody minded management often have to be threatend before they will negotiate seriously. Its a shame but perhaps thats a reflection of the managements style in trying to drive change and not of its employees who are often considered an unfortunate liability they have to endure.

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Good news for all those planned to travel with BA, though i understand some have bought alternatives flights already. However, it appears in many countries that this has already created very bad worldwide press for BA, & if Unite continue & Re-ballot, then there will still be a strike, even if ity is later, unless they sit down & agree a way forwards.

Perhaps in many ways, BA is better to be closed down, then re-started, & some on here have formulated this is Walsh's agenda. Perhaps then it can be a leaner more cost effective carrier, with the staff conditions as it wishes in the current climate. Perhaps then they can employ staff on the levels they want to, & I am sure they will find the quality of staff that rate buys! Many current BA staff would no longer work for them. Closing some of the loss making routes maybe wise, & concentrate where they do best, on the long haul profitable routes.

As it stands, the BA Pension deficit at £3.1 Billion, is more than the Share / Company Value. It is up from £1.7 Billion year ago, & would meet the conditions for the opt out for Iberia to merge with it.

Even Singapore Airlines has lost $2.1 Billion, but it is cash & asset rich, though it has nothing like this pension deficit. LH/ KLM/AF, Emirates, as all have had a different approach that enables them to avoid such crisis

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Hi Everyone

Just some memory that maybe the BA crew will wake up .... remember the old Alitalia ....... The crew drive so hard with the strike making the company almost never earning any money, and in The End .... is was Ciao ! SAS Denmark Crew is on the same level, and we will see the story there too.

Sorry to say that time has change even pilot is getting less money, so If you are unhappy with your job or condition change another airline or work, Dont bring the whole company down! Is not that BA is earning money now days and the forecast is not so good neither. - Is hard to teach a old dog new tricks ! BA crew dont let people compare you guys with this! Act - pull you guys together and work with the company come with solution that you all could live with.

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BA's press web site has listed the full pay scales for cabin crew which is a bit of an eye opener. One wonders why Unite are not calling for equal pay across the airline. I cannot quite see the logic in the Crew Manager on a Boeing 777 out of LGW doing much more than the CSD on a 777 out of LHR. I wonder why these numbers have not been picked up by the media? Basic pay Allowances Total earnings Heathrow longhaul CSD £38,006 £18,319 £56,325 Purser £32,140 £17,670 £49,810 Main crew £18,693 £16,287 £34,980

Heathrow shorthaul CSD £38,928 £13,075 £52,003 Purser £26,149 £12,800 £38,949 Main crew £13,415 £12,358 £25,773

Gatwick Crew manager £20,275 £7,147 £27,422 Purser £16,631 £7,147 £23,778 Main crew £11,176 £7,147 £18,323

Annual leave is 31-37 days for Heathrow shorthaul crew and 30-36 days for longhaul. For Gatwick crew, it is 28 days.

Cabin crew allowances (from Heathrow, October 2009)

Allowances and duration of trip vary by route. For example, a crew member working Heathrow-Tokyo-Heathrow will receive allowances of £935 for the four-day trip. A six-day return to Shanghai pays £866, five days to Hong Kong £798 and five days to Rio £731. These allowances exclude hotel costs.

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I too really want BA to survive. I am British but live in Paris. We had booked our Grandmother & two Aunts (they too are British and wanted to fly BA) to come from the USA for Xmas. As the strike threat progressed we cancelled the tickets and booked them first class on a US carrier. I wonder how much of a loss the threatened strike cost BA ? The cabin crew must not strike under any circimstances. They are very highly paid. I am sure there are others only too willing to step into their shoes. They must be realistic and study the economics of the times .

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JackyLek - I fully agree with your comments.

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The allowances are paid Tax Free as well

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I am booked QF MEL/ LHR 20 Jan and connecting down to Abuja on BA on the 21st, returning LOS/LHR/YVR all on BA 27th Jan. Does anyone know the current status of this dispute and will they proceed with further industrial action in the New Year? Prefer to use BA down to Nigeria but really worried about getting stuck in the middle of a dispute. I have a back up J seat to Los on EK, have to ticket on EK by the 12th . QF/BA is J class RTW ticketing can be done up to the 18th.

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Hi Austline,

as far as I am aware from speaking to friends of mine at BA, the union still intends to pursue a possible strike. In order to do so they need to reballot all their members. This takes, I believe at least two weeks so if they were to ballot their members at the beginning of January when we are all back from the festive break then they could have a result by the 17th or 18th of January after which they must give at least 7 days notice to BA of their intention to strike. That would mean that the earliest strike action could commence around the 25th or 26th of January which means you could be affected on the 27th.

The current view seems to be that there is likely to be some attempt at a negotiated settlement in the new year and so the likeliehood is that there is unlikely to be a strike before February if at all.

I hope that is of some help to you although please do not finalise your plans on the above as it is only what I have been able to find out through friends.

Perhaps some other contributors may have better information than I do, but whatever you decide I hope yopu have an excellent trip.

Meery Xmas and Happy newe year to all!!!"

Safe travels,

Jonathan

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Hi Jonathan, Thnaks very much It certainly does help. have a safe and Merry Christmas.

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A great conclusion to this thread.....we should all be thankful for the simple things in life we have.

At the end of the day, we all work hard for the bills we have to pay.

This emotive thread highlights a number of areas where we all share emotion and passion for what we do and what we believe in....my final parting comment for 2009 is that I hope as a service industry we all continue to deliver what our customers expect and in some areas we exceed in delivery in what we do.

Merry Christmas and a Happy 2010 to you all.

GTR_Skyline

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Very disappointed in the way that the British Airways Cabin Crew have behaved when British Airways is trying to save its self from what appears to almost be definite bankruptcy. They need to be allowed to make the same sort of cutbacks as bmi did at the end of November. Allowing them to concentrate on profitable routes such as flights to belfast and cut out the bad ones like flights to tel aviv..

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Regrettably any strike by BA staff will only add another nail, or quite a few more to a possible coffin.

I have every sympathy with staff who are facing cuts to their take home pay.

The current staff costs at BA need to be trimmed. The airline's revenue is falling due to less people traveling & increased competition. Profits are needed so that aging aircraft can be replaced.

If it is true that BA staff earn greater salaries due to 'out of date' work practices & the fact that the business model needs significant overhaul, then BA staff should accept these changes or accept the consequences when BA declares bankruptcy.

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I completely agree with you.

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I was in the Arrival Lounge on new year's eve. In come an air stewardess, and she starts helping herself to newspaper and magazines. I am not surprise that BA need to cut cost because the BA staff are abusing the system!

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And then some...pretty much sums up their arrogant behaviour.

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While I don't think there is anything wrong with helping oneself to newspapers that are lying around, I do theink it is utterly heinous that BA Club Class help themselves to canapes in the galley while depriving passengers of them. Please see a recent posting on SKYTRAX alluding to this appalling behaviour from BA cabin crew.

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Does anyone have an update on the BA cabin crew industrial situation. Have been watching BBC news etc but nothingis forthcoming.Concerned that I may get stuck in Lagos!

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Unions will be re-balloting this month...so earliest strikes could take place would be end of Jan/early Feb

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Thanks that's a relief will XXX EK

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I have seen it too. No big deal but not at all nice to see.!

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Unite has announced it is to hold talks with BA "in the next few days". For more information visit:

http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/ba-and-unite-to-hold-talks

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Word on the street is that Easter will be the next target date for a strike......will Unite never learn *rolls eyes*

With an election likely between March and June a high profile strike would not be good news for Mr Brown either....

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Nobody wins in a strike and all it will do is further cripple an already struggling BA. Let's hope common sense prevails !

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+++ Lin--ny - 05/01/2010 17:44 GMT

"I was in the Arrival Lounge on new year's eve. In come an air stewardess, and she starts helping herself to newspaper and magazines. I am not surprise that BA need to cut cost because the BA staff are abusing the system! +++"

I think you should get your facts right. BA crew are not allowed in the lounges.

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Two reasons why you would not see a cabin crew at the Arrival Lounge:

1 - We have our own staff lounge upstairs. 2 - When crew arrive at LHR they will not want to hang on at the airport unless they have to.

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Could the contributor have mixed ground staff working the lounge with air hostess? It is common for staff to grab a coffee and a paper for their break which is just fine by me...

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It's more likely and cabin crew and ground staff wear the same uniform.

The only different is on the wing

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Hi

Many of my co-worker is avoiding to use BA, SAS and Finnair coz of the strike treat, they said that even its not any confirmed of the strike, but they dont want to take any chance. And after a KA-OZ X-mas and New Year turbulence I can understand that people will not put up with more problems. For me Im a little bit nervous already coz I have some flights with BA and AY to the Far East next month.

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I have a CW booking for ARN-LHR-JNB in April and I hope to get a chance for my first "real" BA long haul experience. I tried a BA 747 on the LHR-CAI run in August, and I would not consider this a "true" long-haul. I did try BA First due to operational upgrade one way and CW upper-deck on the return. I thought both were ok, but nothing really exciting. I do look forward to benchmarking BA’s product on the overnight flights to my recent LX experience in F and C/J cabin on the new A330-300. So far the LX experience has been very nice. Hopefully, there will be no strikes on BA so I can test this out.

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She managed to get in

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Virgin less salubrious than BA?????

BA economy is very similar to VS economy.

VS upper class is arguably rather better than new club world.

It is a shame to see polemic posted as reasoned argument.

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Could easily start another thread comparing like for like...VS would come top in my opinion in most areas of comparison....

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+++ Lin--ny - 07/01/2010 18:41 GMT

She managed to get in+++

I am sorry but that is hard to believe. Cabin crew aswell the ground staff, have their own lounge upstairs, with a coffee shop, canteen and lounge. For a cabin crew to arrive from a trip and go to the Arrival Lounge instead of going home or to the report center it is hard to believe

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"She managed to get in " ++++ Sounds like a load of tosh -- obviously making a mistake with ground staff - possibly Gate staff... of all the cabin crew I know ( considerable ) no-one wants to hang around the airport after a long haul esp near pax. As you rightly point out its forbidden and why not hang out with your colleagues in yr own area, without the pax looking on, if you have to - eg waiting for a connection to get home... The 'thrill' of flying and lounges doesn't exist amongst any staff I know...

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Perhaps we should start a new thread, along the lines of 'Where Cabin Crew Relax post-flight'?

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Good idea... I think this thread has got off the topic somewhat...

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Frankly who cares my only concern is getting on a carrier that will get me from A to B safely, on time and with professional crew flying it, and serving in the cabin. BA cabin crew get real! I like many people am fed up with threats of industrial disputations, whether it be the QF engineers or BA cabin crew. This threat of stikes only serves to turn customers away and on to airlines like EK,VS,SQ etc.

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EK and SQ...yes? VS?NO WAY! Have you read some of the reviews they've garnered on Skytrax?Only a masochist would fly VS!

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Good morning everyone,

Wildgoose, some of your recent posts make it seem like you have been going through some rather turbulent airpockets recently as they seem to be affecting your objectivity,

'NO WAY VS', forgive me but I read the Skytrax reviews as well and you will find a great many bad and good reviews about almost any carrier listed. You may not want to fly VS but there are many people who do and who are generally very happy just as there are those who may not. be.

Please try to be fair and balanced in your views if you are going to generalise or else stick to the facts of your personal experiences.

I hope none of our fellow posters out there are suffering too badly at the hands of ther weather.

Have a great weekend and travel safely,

Jonathan

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Good point, reviews can very and while I tend to use Oneworld carriers flights can vary greatly. One of the worst flights I had was on SQ last year and look who wins all the awards. For me realiablity is very important.. Weather, well I am in Melbourne 41c tomorrow too hot for the beach, just have to hang around inside and have a cold drink by my side. Hope all readers are enjoying the snow..

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I guess the bottom line at the moment, as a business traveller, is who is more likely to get you to destination, BA or VS.

As stated in previous posts, I have always found the BA service in the air to be good or better.

But will they be on strike?

Presently, I would take VS (or another carrier)

This period of uncertainty must be hurting BA sales.

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As a formal ballot must be held prior to any strike, and a two to three week minimum timescale from any ballot to a strike, most business trips at least should be unaffected.

I continue to have longhaul and shorthaul bookings with BA in the coming weeks.

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Well good for you Vintage Krug.

I do not trust BA at the moment, the threat of strike action is their problem and I don't intend to make it mine by booking flights with the company.

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Not sure why Expat does not trust BA at the moment, certainly there is the possibility there may be a strike in the future, but as VK points out the legislation in the UK means that warnings have to be given and procedures have to be taken before any action can take place.

Most non-UK airlines could go on strike at the drop of a hat and the first you know about it is when you turn up at the airport!

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NTarrant

Why should I trust BA?

Most of my trips are booked in advance and often I take advantage of discounted offers, which are not refundable or changeable.

BA's approach in several bouts of industrial action has been (a) to communicate poorly - look at earlier comments on this thread, (b) to refuse a refund until the flight is finally confirmed as cancelled, i.e.the last minute, by which time alternatives are thin on the ground and prohibitively expensive or worse, not available - which would be disastrous for me.

I have been caught by this myself,during the last threatened cabin crew strike, where I was obliged to buy another ticket as insurance and then BA did not strike - I only lost 90€, as I had to book easyJet, since all Swiss flights were full due to the threatened strike,but nonetheless I remember.

There are plenty of alternative carriers who do not have threatened industrial action, QED I'll protect my own business and let BA worry about theirs.

In 32 years of business travel and several thousand flights, the only airline to affect me with industrial action is British Airways.

That is a fact, not an opinion.

If other airlines cause me grief, I'll avoid them as well, but to date only one name appears on this particular list.

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You're on the right (flight?)path Expat; if and airline causes you a loss then you are quite right in taking your business elsewhere. It's an ethos my company has adopted and, consequently, have not suffered a great deal, if at all. I would like to think that more and more people will adapt such a policy and ensure that they do not suffer financially. Let the Gooners, Tarrants, and Krugs declaim and proclaim all they want, it won't make a difference to the rest of us.

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Wildgoose I agree, I am giving QF/BA one last chance Mel/Lhr/Abv/Los/Yvr/Lax/Mel - J class usd14k, I do this trip to Los x 4 a year plus domestic flying and trips to Jnb. I have had several long delays on QF through on going industrial dispute with their engineers and have just about had enough.

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Are you reading this Willie? Bread and butter customers talking here...any feedback?

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Austline, that's $14,000 (AUD or US$?) that BA/QF won't be seeing if they screw up again. Are there any alternatives to BA/QF for this routing? A thousand here, a thousand there and it soon all starts adding up and, before you know it, you, as an airline, have got a massive pension deficit.

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Expat - I do appreciate your situation and you are not the only one to book business trips in advance to take advantage of lower fares, I do the same where I can.

The point I was making is that UK laws mean that at least you know in advance, when, how long and when it will end. How many of your thousands of flights have been disrupted by weather, terror threats, increased security, air traffic controllers in France, baggage handlers not affiliated to BA and the list could go on. I find it hard to believe that in 32 years you have only been disrupted by the threat of strikes by BA and have never been caught by disruption to other airlines or by other factors.

Whilst you do say by industrial action its only BA, again find that hard to believe in your experience of 32 years and thousands of flights, unless of course they have all been on BA in which case I would say you have been incredably unlucky

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I find it hard to believe that in 32 years you have only been disrupted by the threat of strikes by BA and have never been caught by disruption to other airlines or by other factors.

Whilst you do say by industrial action its only BA, again find that hard to believe in your experience of 32 years and thousands of flights, unless of course they have all been on BA in which case I would say you have been incredably unlucky

I now remember that I once suffered a cancelation with Air France, due to a French ATC strike, circa 1979.

Apart from that, BA has the honours. And I am not inluding the GG fiasco in that thinking.

WIth regard to wx cancelations, very, very rare with other airlines. BA does have a tendency to drop short haul/domestic like a hot cake, compared to other airlines.

The last two non BA wx disruptions I suffered were with easyJet in 2007, involving an airborne return due to severe thunderstorms and an en route diversion to Richmond, VA, with Delta in 2003 for the same reason.

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The only time I have had to purchase a ticket home was 3 years ago when BA Cabin Crew were going to strike and BA cancelled flights from Nigeria and I had to purchase a ticket back to Aust on EK. I have also had lengthy delays on both QF and BA. But I still prefer to use Oneworld carriers as I purcahse J RTW and unlike Star and SQ in particlar, who have surcharges if you travel on the 777ER and A380 with the new J& F seating, QF has no surcharges on its A380 nor does BA on its aircraft. Also I have just lost a heap of FF points on EK and SQ as they expire after 3 years. But if I have delays this time around through a QF or BA industrial dispute, I will be changing carriers as I am losing confidence.

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Easter Strike threat abandoned......looks like some good news at last

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8469856.stm

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But now the strikes could commence earlier...as early as 1st March 2010, so threat of strike action and associated uncertainty and anxiety still there for leisure and business travellers...

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I have it on good authority that Willie's Not For Turning:

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o147/airlinetripreports/maggiewalsh.jpg

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Go Maggie, Go...sorry, Go Willie, Go....great pic :-)

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Mmmmmm.....

Maggie's track record speaks for itself.

Willie has yet to finish his.

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I think the management has to sit this one out. I have just travelled economy to/from Poland with Easyjet and Transavia (BA have withdrawn from route). Frankly apart from selling rather than giving out meals, I observed no difference in what these cabin staff did and what BA staff do. So why need BA more? I can see that the CURRENT staff dont WANT to give up better terms (I would not, in their shoes) but BA as a MINIMUM should pay NEW employees only what the market is paying.

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Ridiculous!

Ba Management has ofered to open the books and have talks to BASSA/Unite, they have refused, citing "preconditions".

BALPA, the Pilots Union, did take up management offer of a talks, saw the books, and have a negotiated settlement which involves reduced salary and changed working practices.

Unite has FAILED to go to the negotiating table, and has FAILED its membership. It now deserves exactly what it will get i.e. no deal and dictated terms = bad for its members.

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VintageKrug - you beat me to it....well said.

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I agree with VintageKrug!

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Yes, but the trouble is, re:” Unite now deserves exactly what it will get i.e. no deal and dictated terms = bad for its members.” It won’t get that.

What instead will happen is a series of strikes as on one side staff refuse to give up benefits they were awarded in better times, and on the other, Walsh sees this as the one and only time he can push through realistic working practices and try and get into at least the same league as other carriers against which he is competing (though there’s no chance of getting his costs down to compete with the likes of Easyjet and Flybe).

When the economy recovers, Walsh can’t have this fight because Unite will point to recovering financial results and no doubt “fat cat” bonuses, but right now, no one can blame him for trying to cut costs.

But if you were the staff, whether on 25k or 50k, why agree measures which are viewed as the thin(ish) end of a very thick wedge which will see you brought down to the level of those who work for other airlines on other terms? You’d be better off striking (or so the thinking goes).

The fact is that every time BA was threatened with strike action in the last 25 years it caved in and showered money and improved working terms on the staff.

It could get away with it when there was less competition (ie: up to about 15 years ago), and when it had a huge and unrivalled route network out of Heathrow. But the world has changed. It’s wrong to talk of BA facing competition on short haul because there is no competition - it lost the battle a long time ago.

As for long haul, the competition has never been fiercer, both from ME carriers and those carriers with quick feet that formed alliances. And though it’s slightly off thread, the idea that Iberia is a good match for BA is madness. They have worse problems than BA. Iberia works only as a poison pill to stop someone else taking over BA. Together, BA and Iberia would kill any other airline trying to swallow them.

Now it is immune to takeover, Walsh can have his fight to the death with the crew, but it will be that, because you can’t lose money for ever....

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This is all very sad, I am currently in the BA First lounge at Heathrow waiitng on my flight to Abuja, had a superb flight up on QF via HKG and no problems transfering from T3 to T5 - fast track worked and F lounge very nice. What a pity I haven't got the confidence to do this routing again in March, much prefer to use OW but just can't risk it, I wonder how many other business travellers feel this way..

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Most of my business flights from March to May 2010 have been changed to other carriers.....

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I assume these are fully flexible anyway?

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Austline

I feel the same way as you and have recently booked Star Alliance instead of BA.

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You're not alone Austline, Expat_Consultant, GTR_Sykline...

I have just booked my March travel (separate trips to Bangkok, Dubai, Mumbai) on alternative carriers. At nearly 8K GBP, this is revenue BA could have surely used.

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And so it escalates. BA stick it to the Cabin Crew - strike and you may lose benefits, including cheap family & friends flights and "a lower standard of hotels" for nightstops.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8475910.stm

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geohoveuk... in any case, staff travel puts bums on seats and is a neat source of pocket money for BA.

Having read your views on the and in particular your last one, I have to tell you that you are wrong as well as seriously ill informed. Staff Travel barely covers it's costs for BA and indeed the tax liability, which BA picks up for it's staff, probably costs the firm money. Staff travel for most staff is a perk, it is certainly not a contractual obligation. Crew use it to allow themselves to live the sort of lives most dream of. Take any domestic flight and yoiu will see crew using these services to commute. Other live all over Europe. This is a proportionate response from a business that is being held to ransom and whos very existance is put in jeopardy by a minority of staff and crw ed by reactionary 1970 though back unions.

I should add that in the event of any planned industrial action, all staff in BA will be banned from using staff travel as they have in the past. The only exception.....commuting crew......

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For the sake of passengers, staff, families, BA's global reputation, BA's share price, etc...lets hope these issues get resolved in a mutually acceptable manner bearing in mind the current economic climate, the sacrifices we are all having to make with our respective employers, etc, etc

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The impact of forward bookings is already weighing heavily on BA. No one is going to risk BA between say end Feb - mid/end Mar as these are the likely strike days wndow, given 'Unite' has said they will not a call a strike over Easter. So assuming the vote is for strike action then the uncertainity of when is considerable. BA has aleady extended it's Worldwide Sales offer to Feb 9th from Jan 26th.

As good as some offers are and some are very good in all three classes plus refunds will be offered in the event of cancelled flights that is no 'compensation' for a missed business deal, meeting etc.

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BA has, historically, always extended its (not it's) January sale by an additional week beyond the originally stated dates.

www.ba.com/sale

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can anyone tell me what happens if I use my air miles to buy a flight (and also pay for a hotel on my own expense) and then the flight is cancelled due to strike action? Will BA pay for all my lost expenses? I doubt it...but what are (if any) my rights here? I don't want to loose hard earned air miles.

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Omanpat

if you book your flight and hotel seperately then no you are not covered that is what travel insurance is for, however if you have not already got a policy pre dating the strike announcement you will not be covered for costs incurred due to the strike ( they class it the same as a pre existing medical condition you knew about it when you booked you take your chances. However its not all bad news if you use your airmiles (if thats possible) through BA holidays and book a package with them then they are responsible for both parts of your trip and may even have to fly you like for like on an alternative airline or refund you in full both miles and additional cash paid. Hope that helps

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From a reliable BA manager source....March 1st is strike day. BA is planning its ''strike orientation'' and is pinpointing the 1st March. As usual all domestics cancelled, most European cancelled but might get a few long-hauls away. Disastrous

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Openfly - any secret squirrel updates as to duration of the strike as your note coincided with my about to book a long haul on the 11th March, gvien the earleir strike threat was approx 12 days!!

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Honestly, I don't think there will be that much impact even if a strike happens.

And it's far from certain that will be the case, as it may still be declared illegal following the outcome of a court case which is being held as we speak.

There have been enough non-cabin crew trained to operate 777 services; that in itself will mean much of the longhaul flying programme will be operating.

The fact is there are many people from within BA who are prepared to break this strike, and support among the ranks is flakier than a chocolate bar in an overflowing bath.

Shorthaul will be more affected, but again I would expect many flights to continue to operate.

The strike duration will be significantly less than 12 days, which was a silly publicity stunt and exposed the vacuous minds which inhabit the BASSA leadership. Many union members have resigned in light of that ridiculous 12 days of Christmas duration.

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Cathay...thats the wierd thing. The cabin crew have again voted for an open-ended strike. Only Unite know how long the strike will last. Madness.

Vintage...It may not affect passengers who start in London. I have to start a long trip on the 1st March from MAN. All domestic and most European connectors will be affected badly.

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So, what do you think are my chances of flying LHR to BKK on 3rd March?

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just got back from LAX via Virgin upper class. Can't fault the service, bed was great (the light was rubbish), food was ok, no worries that staff would suddenly go on strike...would use (sorry, WILL use) again. Plus...I can use air miles for things OTHER than flights!FAB!

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I just got back to MEL Friday flew on the QF, A380 ex LAX - 15hours 40 minutes superb aircraft very quite. J class great lie flat beds, food and wine first class, kills EK and SQ. Also no compaints about BA on this trip, crew and service very good - shame the staff at the FIRST lounge LHR terminal 5 aren't very friendly, great champagne bar. Oneworld is the best alliance all quality carriers. Flying again in March watching the industrial situation with BA very closely.

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See what % of the crew decide to support the action. Sad state for a business to be out of sync with its employees, everyone loses. Current BA figures Pension Deficit of £3.4Bn, losing £600M this year on track for, when their shares are only worth £2.3Bn, & dropping, their value is high risk & uncertain, with little yield. Sad for a great Airline with such regular service & Mis-management lists in recent years.

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Unite/BASSA has wholly misrepresented these issues to its cabin crew membership.

Having demonstrated its juvenile approach to industrial relations by refusing to meet BA management properly for most of last year (due to internal divisions within the union itself), it then proposed a ludicrous headline grabbing "12 Days of Christmas" strike.

This was stopped by court order, and the planned duration of the action left many BASSA members shocked.

The very reason for the strike has been declared illegal in the High Court last week. BASSA now has a £1.2m legal bill to pay for its misguided challenge....

BASSA has guaranteed there will be no strike over Easter, which leaves mid-March as the likely focus for this now illegal strike.

There is still likely to be a strong percentage in favour of any strike, but BASSA needs at least 80% support for the airline to be impacted; BUT the vote was taken prior to the Court decision ruling the action illegal.

Finally, BA has strong contingency plans to keep longhaul flights running, using other trained BA cabin crew to continue services.

Voting to support Industrial Action is far different from actually carrying out that threat. Those who decide to strike have a simple choice; come to work, or breach the Terms of Employment and face unemployment; there are plenty of people willing and able to perform those jobs, and keep the British public flying, especially in the current environment.

BASSA is on a kamikaze mission to stir up trouble, where a more supportive and pragmatic approach (as was demonstrated by the pilots union) would have let to modest changes feeding through to increased margins and profitability already.

To be clear, BA made a £25m operating PROFIT last quarter, off the back of Willie Walsh's actions reducing its overinflated cost base. You can see more of BA's historically profitable numbers prior to 2009 on the airlines wiki page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_airways

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We got tickets BRU-LHR-CPT and back, leaving March 7th returning on the 14th. Should I be changing my ticket to another carrier or take my chances? Oh and it is our honeymoon aswell...

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It would be pointless to cancel your booking with BA, as re-booking with another carrier would be very expensive at this stage.

While it is almost certain that a good number of staff will have voted to strike, voting for a strike is very different to not turning up to work when your job is on the line for not doing so.

Staff will have voted prior to the knowledge that strike was illegal (court case result was announced last week). In the event a strike is called and goes ahead, most of the schedule will operate normally with other BA employees filling for crew who refuse to work. Over 300 ground staff and pilots have already been trained to fulfil these roles.

What would be good might be to explore your options NOW with your insurance company, and other airlines on that route.

It might be prudent to book a fully flex "stand by" option with another carrier just in case, as it is an important event, but frankly I really don't see this threat of Industrial Action being well supported in the event by BA staff.

Strikers will be sacked instantly for striking illegally, and further, most services will continue to run with the support of right thinking BA staff who recognise that the best way to improve their pay and conditions is to support the firm they work for in the tough times, and drive profitability which in the end will deliver a better result for all concerned.

I understand the results of the ballot will be announced tomorrow, Monday 22 February.

I continue to have personal, non changeable and business flights booked with BA over the period in question, though have booked one domestic flight with bmi as these are services most likely to be affected.

EDIT: Actually my number were incorrect, there are 3,500 BA employees prepared to break this strike, if it ever happens. More info from the Hate Mail:

www.dailymail.co.uk/money/article-1252515/3-500-British-Airways-staff-break-cabin-crew-strike.html

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Thanks for your insights VK!

My main problem is ease of mind, since this is about our honeymoon travels.

I can book my flights with EK in F, for the same price as BA CW, through a travel industry deal at work, so that is not my main concern.

But your saying that the longhaul flights will most likely not have a problem, but the European one do? So we could have a problem of actually not getting into LHR that day...

I'll see what they announce tomorrow and then decide.

thanks for the info

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I think it's only the strike result itself which will be announced tomorrow; this will almost certainly be in favour of striking. If it's anything less than 80% in favour, BASSA will not have enough support to carry on.

Given their polling is totally flawed (the phrase piss up in a brewery come to mind), there will probably be a legal challenge to their poll.

Latest is that any strike dates will be announced on Thursday 25 February, I think they need at least one week's notice to strike, so earliest would be Thursday 4 March.

But VERY unlikely it will come to that IMHO, as all crew flight benefits are at risk, which is a huge perk and allows many of the crew to live in Marbella etc. and commute to the office for 10% of the normal fare.

Lord Browne sitting next to me in the lounge this evening....

Here is the current commercial policy:

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/strike-ballot/public/en_gb?refevent=home_strike

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Regards to Lord Browne... You are clearly well informed with regard to BA issues. I am not. Perhaps you are an employee? I enjoy reading your (are they called?) blogs. However, I cannot be ar...ed waiting for BA to make up their minds about what or not they are going to do and the legal aspects of it all. I am a customer. A loyal customer (gold card for years). I want the service I pay (a lot) for. If its unreliable, given without good grace ( a BA trait), etc etc...I , like many others will move on. I will not hang around waiting for a paid service to make up their mind if (after taking my money) they will give it or not. Shame you are not sitting next to Willie...

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That's a relief VK, I thought you may be Lord Browne. (tee HEE HEE)

Is his book any good?

Going to Vancouver in First 5th March hope it runs ok

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Unite's website is reporting that the result of the ballot has been delayed until 5pm today due to "unexpected circumstances":

"Unite will be announcing the result of the ballot of its BA cabin crew at 5pm. Electoral Reform Services has had to delay the count due to unexpected circumstances and therefore the Unite press conference will be at 5pm.

"The result of the ballot of Unite's more than 12,000 British Airways cabin crew will be announced today at 5pm instead of the scheduled 2pm on Monday, February 22nd."

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Probably some irregularities in the flawed poll.

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BA are tweeting as follows: http://www.britishairways.com/travel/strike-ballot/public/en_gb?refevent=twitter

As a BA shareholder and customer, I think we have to sit this one out. Of course the existing staff do not want to give up their current terms but the market situation appears to be that others want and are potentially qualified to do their jobs. So realism should rule

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Hi everyone,

VK, do you really think that having had the original pole thrown out by a High Court judge because it was flawed that the union would risk having it thrown out again for exactly the same reason?

The leadership may be hard-line and stupid but not that stupid if they are to retain the confidence of their members!

I am totally against the stike this time as I was last time. i am not however convinced that the judge came to BA's rescue entirely for legal reasons although am very please that they did so for the sake of the 000's of pax whose festive season would have been ruined had the judgement gone against BA.

It will be interesting to see if BA challenge the result this time!

Safe travels,

Jonathan

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You are right Jonathan !!

Nice to have you back--old friend !

But sincerly--it is a bad day for both parties and most of all to us BA pax !

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I would not underestimate the incompetence of those leading Unite/BASSA.

I still don't believe it will come to a strike.

As nothing has been announced re: strike dates today, all flights are safe until at least 1 March.

Here is the legal position relating to advising strike dates:

-------------------------

Organising industrial action

Notice of industrial action must be served on the relevant employers at least seven days before the start of the industrial action.

If industrial action is discontinuous, the union must give at least seven days’ notice of each day when the industrial action will take place.

The industrial action must be started within four weeks of the date of the ballot, otherwise the ballot result will be treated as “stale”.

For guidance, see sections 226 to 234A of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Consolidation Act 1992 (TULRCA). ------------------

I am all for proper labour relations, and representation for the workforce; BA Cabin Crew deserve better than this from their union representatives, who among other cock-ups have landed their membership with a £1.2m legal bill for their illegal strike challenge.

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Enter stage left...

Ah Jonathan & Hess, well seeing you're not members of Unite! Never understimate their incompetence when it comes to dotting the i's over ballots. I'm a mere mortal one in a million - or 2 now - member but have been involved with Unite and some of its predecessors Amicus & MSF for too many years now, and whilst they're generally good on the IR side, when it comes to their admin it just goes all wrong. On a much smaller scale but the analogy rings true, twice in 2001 and 2003 we had to postpone our section's AGM with all the obvious cost and hassle simply because the union didn't send out the papers within the 14 days notice in the then rules. 2 members, and honorary ones at that, was all it took to force the postponement each time - the other 2000 odd paying & working members were quite happy that the papers were on the website / emailed a few days before - after all we're used to getting them on arrival at the meeting in our day jobs. Then back in 99 we had a vote of no confidence in our then administrator, or at least MSF's administration - straight to the then Gen Sec (famous for claiming his bun on expenses). Another problem is their membership database is notoriously incomplete and out of date - missing home postal addresses (slight problem with ballots, Norman Tebbit and all that...), members long emigrated to countries any UK trade union wouldn't want to know about, dead etc etc. It only takes one...

There goes my honorary membership.

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I thought that it was interesting today, that we did not witness the same scenes of jubilation and hysteria that greeted the last poll announcement from members of unite and the trots that lead them back in December. Today was a far more somber, almost soft focused affair from the lunatic fringe leadership who had clearly taken some PR advice.

As a "champagne socialist" I fully support the right to strike when people are facing genuine hardship and inequality. I cannot however support this action as it is simply overpaid, underworked and poorly lead, greedy individuals who cannot face the reality of living in 2010.

No one will be made compulsorily redundant.......shock horror….promotion will be by merit...... rather than the iniquitous seniority path. These are reasonable and necessary changes that a business is making in order to survive and continue to offer the opportunities and lifestyles others can only dream of. Even when fully implemented I still believe that BA will have tens of thousands of applicants for cabin crew jobs.

Personally, and despite this vote, I am inclined to believe that a strike it will not happen. The loss of staff travel alone is just too big a risk for people who would not be able to continue to commute from their homes in places such as the south of France, Switzerland and much of the UK.

Self interest will out in the end ...which I think is more than the cabin crew will do.

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I concur.

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Quite agree with what has been said particularly the issues around union incompetence. What is sad is that McCluskey or whatever his name is, just wants his 15 minutes of fame and he does not give a fig for the cabin crew.

Lets hope that common sense prevails

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It seems to me that the solicitors representing Unite may well have gone to an inferior Law school (College of Law?) where little emphasis seems to be have been paid to procedure. :o) Maybe they should have gone to Cardiff, Nottingham, or one of BPP's schools :o)

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I think some of the BASSA/UNite leadership are trying to get jobs for life on the TUC Board, there is some sort of vote coming up with regard to that and much of the difficulty with BA is about that, rather than actually helping BA Cabin Crew get better conditions.

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Poor gullible BA crew if they don't see that they are being manipulated.

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VK or anyone else in the know, have you got any idea of when they may actually go on strike as I need to purchase tickets as usual, and do not want to make the move as I did in Christmas to Continental (disasterous, never again) and realise I didn't have to in the end. One of my upcoming trips I can do with BA out of LCY which I understand will not be effected, but another journey I need to make 20/3 to 25/3 is long haul out of LHR. How do these dates look to you?

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They will advise strike dates on Wednesday (tomorrow) after they hold a meeting on the subject.

Being so close to that announcement, speculation on which flights will be affected would not be sensible.

All we know is they have to give seven days notice of intention to strike, and have stated they will not strike over Easter (first weekend in April). Realistically if the intent is not to disturb people's vacation plans that means no strike a week either side of Easter.

But you never know for sure, so it would be pointless me speculating...

At any rate I am pretty certain the strike will be called off, but not before BA revenues suffer even more....

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Thanks VK, I will wait for tomorrow then. Appreciate your advice/info as always.

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Hello everyone,

Hi Jim, good point and well taken. Perhaps it ws just wishful thinking on my part that they might just get it right.

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Who is VK? He rocks!

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"VK" rarely rocks ;)

My information was invalidated by BASSA's decision to delay the meeting until Thursday.

Another indication they are serious about talks with BA Management and are looking for a face-saving climbdown.

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Does anyone know whether Gatwick flights will be affected, or just Heathrow?

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LGW and LHR are both affected, but most LCY flights (which are Cityflyer operated) remain unaffected.

Here is the current policy:

www.britishairways.com/travel/strike-ballot/public/en_gb?refevent=home_urgent_centre

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I am a BA crew member based out of LHR and did vote yes.. But I did so with great reluctance.. For me, this is almost a vote for "whom do I distrust more? The airline leadership or my union leadership?".. I recognize that this action comes at a high price to my passengers and that they are unfortunately the innocent victims in this mess which really should be between the company leadership and the labor units..

Do I think this is the right thing to do? Yes and no. I wish the timing we better, but in the end the strike or industrial action is the last and perhaps most powerful tool that we as labor have to exert influence over the terns and conditions under which we work.. If this were a non-union environment, then a totally different situation would exist, but we are a unionized labor group and both sides need to recognize and acknowledge this..

Changes to our work conditions and rules cannot be arbitrarily made by either side.. We both have a CONTRACT that was agreed to and signed by both parties.. Sure, times have changed since the contract was signed, but one of the risks that anyone who enters into a multi-year contract bears is the risk of the unknown.. Operating costs may rise.. they may fall.. but when contracts are signed, you are liable and bound to their terms for the length of the contract..

If you feel you need to amend them, then come to the opposing part and ask for negotiation-- don't make unilateral cuts.

As far as training current BA staff outside of our union to act as replacement staff to absorb our duties in the case of a strike.. I for one am in agreement with my colleagues.. We will be sure to identify and in the future take great care to "recognize" these individuals when we come into contact with them and will be 100% that our displeasure with their actions are noted. They should be prepared for a less-than welcome reception from cabin staff.

I love my job and I love my passengers.. No one from management plays a bigger role in pleasing our passengers as do your cabin staff. And no one is more disappointed in managements continual degradation of service standards, amenities and the overall quality of the British Airways name and the standards for which we are widely known.

While anyone whose travel plans are now in doubt will not like this, please do understand that we have all thought about you and if there was a different viable avenue for us to address our differences with management, we would be happy to move in that direction.. But given the current climate and what history has shown us is the tactics used by BA management in their dealings with us.. We feel that unfortunately, this is our best and only course of action to show them our commitment to honoring contracts and that we do not accept unilateral changes to contractual language without prior agreement.

Do I think that BA management is totally to "blame" for this problem? No. I do think some of it is circumstances.. But I expect BA to be working WITH US and not imposing changes without prior discussion and agreement.

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Question to LHR_Crew: Will you be prepared to give up your staff travel benefits - permanently - in following your beliefs?

BTW - your comment that individuals will be 'recognized' and will incur your 'displeasure' sounds like intimidation...

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LHR_crew...... i read your comments with interest. So, do you think UNITE/BASSA are at all to blame? I don't think taking your anger out on the BA staff that have been trained to work as cabin crew is the right way forward. Everyone has their opinions on this dispute between BA and UNITE, so let's respect other peoples views!

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I would like to understand some of the points you raise, as my understanding may not be wholly accurate.

1. I understood that BA Management did indeed offer to meet with BASSA to discuss the on board crew reductions; just in the same that BA Management met with and negotiated revised packages for the pilots' union.

BASSA claims that BA Management would not meet with it, and this was because of power splits between BASSA and Unite which meant that they would not sit down at the same table with BA to negotiate; quite rightly BA Management did not want to waste time negotiating twice, and it was therefore the unions' inability to work together with each other which lead to the lack of negotiation.

BA Management demonstrated its willingness to address the issue through negotiation both historiccally with the Gatwick crew agreement, and more recently with the pilots' union.

2. From your US English spelling you seem to be US-based crew. Are you still subject to the same T&Cs and Union Representation as UK based staff?

3. I understood there was no changes in contract at stake; simply changes of working practices. What changes in your contract were being proposed?

4. I am shocked by the implicit threat to "recognize" (sic) individuals who break the strike. Some of these people will not agree with or be able to afford to go without pay, and their right not to take action should be respected just as much as others' right to withdraw their labour.

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LHR_crew -

"As far as training current BA staff outside of our union to act as replacement staff to absorb our duties in the case of a strike.. I for one am in agreement with my colleagues.. We will be sure to identify and in the future take great care to "recognize" these individuals when we come into contact with them and will be 100% that our displeasure with their actions are noted. They should be prepared for a less-than welcome reception from cabin staff."

You should be very careful with your phrasing, this seems like a blatent threat of intimidation to those who simply want THEIR airline to SURVIVE.

Without siding with either CC or Management, I for one firmly believe that whatever action needs to take place, it should not be detrimental to the company to the whole. Striking and trying to force the airline to cease operations for a number of days will have long lasting effects on the BA brand, customer loyalty and faith in the service. You really are shooting yourselves in the foot.

You all seem not to realise that the airline industry we are in is in deep turmoil. You should be pleased to have a job, and if you are loyal to BA you should be happy to pull your socks up and work harder for the good of the company....who knows, the company may not be around for too much longer if CC continue like this.

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14:00GMT: Unconfirmed reports suggest that the 'mass' meeting at Kempton Park has concluded with no strike dates being announced and, instead, an undertaking from Unite to continue discussions with British Airways.

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LHR_crew,

I like others am shocked and extremely dissappointed with your thinly veiled threat of intimidation against those of your colleagues who choose not to strike just because there was a yes vote in the ballot.

I was pleased to see that someone came on from the side of the CC to try and explain why you are striking. Sadly any sympathy which you might have elicited from me evaporated when I saw what you said about your colleagues who do not want to join in the industrial action. That kind of behaviour is simply not acceptable under any circumstances.

SHAME ON YOU AND ANY OF YOUR HARDLINE COLLEAGUES WHO WOULD ASSOCIATE THEMSELVES WITH OR PARTICIPATE IN ANY KIND OF INTIMIDATION.

You say you love your passengers and your job. your actions suggest otherwise!!!

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Well said Jonathan.

My guess is that a much larger number of cabin crew don't want to strike, but are keeping their heads down for fear of suffering intimidation. I applaud BA's efforts to root out those who bully and threaten their colleagues.

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LHR _crew,

I find your attitude a disgrace. The threat of intimidation gives a clue to the loony left mentality still obviously there across the crew that has landed you in this position.

Incidentally, can you explain why the Gatwick crews are contiunuing to run a top class service on long-haul flights under exactly the conditions that are being imposed on you?

Time to wake up and realise you have been overpaid and mollycoddled for years

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LHR_Crew = Silence !

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........possibly on a union negotiated tea break...?

I have a great deal of sympathy for the pressures under which Cabin Crew operate; as those who travel on business know it's a tough environment in which to spend time.

However, it is corporate travel policies and tighter personal budgets which are causing the purse strings - and the levels of service - to reduce; all airlines have been forced to make urgent, necessary cutbacks.

Very, very few airlines operate better T&Cs and Pay Scales for crew than BA does; these are structurally misaligned with the current environment. With an intrinsically high staff cost base, BA has little "wiggle room" for cost reduction; much of it has to be customer facing.

Despite that there remains significant positive investment in the on board and ground based products, as well as new aircraft and innovative services.

If remuneration and T&Cs become re-aligned at a lower level, I belive pay scales should have scope for incentivisation/bonuses directly related to the profitability of the Company. This would align the interests of BA workforce much more closely with that of management.

It is a shame that the unions representing BA staff continue to peddle contradictory statements which profess cuddly empathy with the travelling public, while still revealing their harsh approach to "recogniz[ing]" fellow colleagues who see the bigger picture and want BA to be (extremely) profitable once again, as it has been in the very recent past.

LATEST: Meeting over - No strike dates announced - negotiations to continue with the company to try to reach settlement.

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VK

I am fascinated by your suggestion that the airline industry should consider bonuses, to allow staff remuneration to reflect company profitability.

Put like that it is hard to arguie against your idea. the problem is, there is already an industry which is famous for doing this - the financial services industry. And they have hardly given bonuses a good name!

As ever of course the truth is far removed from what the press writes, and those in the financial industry know well that the bonus scheme crucially includes pay going DOWN in tough years - I know many in the financial services industry whose total pay including bonuses in 2009 was less than half their payin 2007. Indeed any industry which has the volatility of earnings of finance or, for example, airlines, really needs this flexibility.

The problem is that those outside the industry don't notice the reduction in pay in the bad years, but only see the big bonuses in the good years! I hope the airline staff are ready for the ill-informed comments they will surely receive if their company ever has a banner year and they all get (deserved) big pay-outs.

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Ba has a anti bullying/intimdation policy that is quite vigourous, and the posting in an open forum of the above post may be grounds for dismisal.

Also, have I missed something, did a high court judge not just rule that the changes BA made were not a contractual change but an operational one?

There will be no strike if BA sticks to its guns and bans staff travel from any member of staff who strikes, and then to be fair management could do pretty much whatever it feels, as quite a large chuck of cabin crew rely on this for friends family travel as well as commuting to work

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BA did actually have a profit-share scheme in place for years (for the years they made a profit) - the unions and cabin crew seem to have forgotten this though, when calculating their remuneration.

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Quite right First-Pax.

And contrary to many assertions round here that BA is a repeatedly loss making concern, BA has been consistently profitable in its first half (sometimes very profitable), illustrated by figures below for the past 14 years:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46682000/gif/_46682311_ba_profits_466.gif

The goalposts have changed, and as many of us have already done, cabin crew must adapt to that change.

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..the old adage 'you can't have your cake and eat it' springs to mind !

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BA paid a bonus to all staff in July 2008 when it hit its target of a 10% return. It has always had a bonus system for staff but unlike our banks, the business overall, really had to make money for it to be paid. When it was paid it was distributed as multiples of an individuals weekly pay rate. For those on low pay a flat rate was assumed to ensure some degree of fairness......so cabin crew in particular benefited from this as their basic pay is low.

The scheme was never very genrous paying at most 2 or 3 weeks in the exceptional years and it lost a great deal of credibility when the schemes target was missed in 2002 by a whisker, after BA accounted for all the costs associated with the demise of Concorde into the 2002/3 financial year. Directors however were still rewarded. I also believe that there is still an operational bonus payment whcih can be achieved based upon operational efficiency. This includes measures such as baggage perfromance and punctuality ( based upon being reday to go) rather than actuially going anywhere. ATC being outwith the control of individual staff. These payments were/are small being no more than a £150 but when T5 opened theses payments were considered impossible to achieve....How that has changed.

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I am trying to see how much about Unite is in the public domain. Does anyone know the number of full time employees they have and their pay and more importantly their pay history. I presume a union has no obligation to publish its financial details or accounts as its not run as a Limited company. How does a union afford top legal counsel and afford to hire key venues. Is all the spend purely from union subs??

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I am re-reading this thread, which has latterly got side-tracked into bonuses etc. I plead as guilty on that as anyone - see my prvious post.

Let us get back to basics - and this is in part an answer to LHR_crew.

BA is in deep trouble. It is trading at a running loss and has a huge pension deficit hanging over it. It is the victim of events outside its control (viz, the economic crisis), but when one is deep in shtuck it is too late to ask why or how.

If BA goes down the cabin crew - yes this means you, LHR_crew - will lose their jobs, their subsidised travel and most of their pension. Have you seen the pittance the Pension Protection Fund pays out?

The main - perhaps the only - asset the airline has left is the unbelievable customer loyalty from its regular flyers. Regular BA flyers would rather fly BA than any other airline. Many choose to do so even if it costs more. Most regularly vote BA as one of their favourite airlines on BT's surveys etc.

And the numbskulls in UNITE want to throw that away?

Get real. A BA strike is not about job conditions or pay. It is about whether you have a job in 12 months time and we have an airline to fly on. End of debate.

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LHR_crew: 1. You are a bully. I hope you get sacked, because you do not deserve to have a job with BA. Or if you don't like the conditions - LEAVE! 2. The High Court found that the changes BA is seeking to make DO NOT constitute a breach of contract. So your rant about breaching contractual conditions is wrong (and irrelevant) 3. As a regular BA flyer, I would certainly like to "recognize" people like you. I truly hope you and your sort get the "recognition" you deserve, because I certainly do not wish to share the same aircraft as you!

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Cedric and John - very well said.

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Hello everyone,

LHR_Crew,

where are you and have you nothing to say in response to the views of myself and other contributors about your original post?

An apology to the pax that you say you love would be a good start!!!

Sadly, i do not expect to hear from you again on this topic as it is very hard if not impossible for you to justify or defend the indefensible.

You are the kind of person who does not care about anything or anyone but themself and you are also among those CC who clearly do not care if BA continues to carry on in business or not and therefore do not deserve to have a job with them!!

Safe travels everyone,

Have a great weekend,

Jonathan

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Isn't threatening to remove Staff Travel benefits for staff who go on strike "Initimidation" & "Bullying"?

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GGeorge - Threatening to take away staff travel is in no way intimidation, its a simple case of BA saying 'You get paid a decent salary with extras, you get to travel to some very nice locations and we put you up in the best hotels, you are trained to a very high standard, and the travel benefits you get is something we don't have to do. If you strike and intentionally hurt OUR business, then why should you get the added benefit of staff travel?'

If I decided to 'strike' from work becuase my company wanted to change my working conditions, they would react by removing my healthcare benefits - which is something the give me but DONT HAVE TO.

CC need to understand that they are not the 'be all and end all' of BA, it will survive perfectly well without them.

The union seems to have made them believe that they are in a strong position....I honestly don't see how you are.

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GGeorge.... think you hit the nail on the head and hit a raw nerve.. with quite a few here ----Hipocrasy with a large "H" - and I am supporting neither side on this... and by gee there is some idiotic 'bumpf' written... never seen disputes settled without dialogue in any arena... regardless of the 'posturing' displayed by all sides....

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I think we're all agreed in our feelings about LHR-crew's post.

Two questions:

1. Are any managers/directors at BA reading all this?

2. Will Business Traveller supply LHR-crew's detalis to BA, so they can take apropriate action?

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May I also add that the Cre should remember they are part of the business, a very important part of the business, but they are not running the business. That is left to the Management, whom shoul dbe more accountable. In the same vain, I beleive that the Union, UNITE, should also be accountable for their actions becasue its all very well saying that 80% of their members vote for action, but what proportion of the entire BA workforce does that represent. WHo are UNITE, how did they accumalate such a vast amount of wealth to afford top level counsel in the high court - I am still trying to understand their structure - who ultimately is running UNITE, who are the chief "Brothers" and what responsabilties and duty of care do they actually have for theor members, when some of them may lose their jobs.

Have a great weekend

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I think these forums would benefit from more input from staff from whatever airlines - both managers and staff.

To do this they should be guaranteed anonymity, just as we regular posters expect anonymity to be respected.

BT should be clear that no personal information will ever be shared outside Panacea; doing so would in any event be a violation of the Data Protection Act, unless related to criminal activity.

Anyway, back on topic.

Cabin Crew Union seems to be moving away from calling a strike. Negotiating with BA seems to be their plan. No date set for any strike, which on the one hand is good, but does still prolong this uncertainty.

Part of me would prefer a strike; identify those who don't support the Company and have done with them.

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I agree VK - but wouldn't you say that BA-crew's threat of bullying and intimidation is a criminal act ?

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Deviating from the rights and wrongs of the dispute...

I was under the impression that the affected dates would be announced yesterday.

Does anyone know anything more about when the dreaded strike will happen?

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I don't think it is a criminal act, no.

Nothing more was announced after the meeting at Kempton Park - just that "BA Cabin Crew did not want to strike" and that negotiations were ongoing with BA.

Climbdown if you ask me; they know they have no support from the public, their Union is shambolic, the grounds on which they chose to strike were ruled illegal by the High Court and suggesting BA refused to negotiate is ridiculous as it has just done exactly that to reach a successful agreement with the Pilots' Union.

Faced with the fact they are currently on some of the most generous contracts out there, with plenty of other people ready (and able) to take over these roles, even on newer less preferential contracts, and with the killer benefit of staff travel at stake, the Union has nowhere else to turn.

As predicted, I would be very surprised indeed if this was to go to Industrial Action.

Doesn't really matter either way, now, though, as the damage to profits will have already been done.

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Hmmmm - so BA-crew's threats go uninvestigated and unpunished.

Exactly the way these union thugs operate!

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We had a booking in club world BRU-CPT for March 7th-14th. Cancelled it and rebooked first with Emirates, and it actually saves me money!

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flybos ....enough said! Bye Bye BA.......

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When I first saw the posting from LHR_Crew I was pleased that a crew member had popped their head above the parapet. However, as I read on, I was disappointed at the apparent lack of reality and fairness. As has been mentioned previously, employment contracts are not the same as any other contracts as they bind more than 2 parties. If I, as a self employed traveller buy a ticket to fly LHR>HKG in Club that is totally different to, for example, HSBC negotiating an annual contract for Club prices LHR>HKG as I may find variations throughout the year, or even after I buy, but HSBC have a fixed deal. At the end of the year that HSBC contract is renewed.

LHR_Crew basic contract will almost certainly be one with a basic rate, hours, holiday etc. which are subject to annual "review". LHR_Crew could stay, forever, on the original rates provided they were never "reviewed" and agreed by both parties. The problem is that annual negotiations are undertaken by the appointed representative Unite.

I also lost any small amount of sympathy that I had as soon as threats were made to fellow employees who have a different outlook.

I have 8 short haul sectors booked in March in and out of London airports, and feel pretty vulnerable right now as some journeys are so short that there is no room for cancellations and missed connections. Although I am a Gold card holder I have received no communications from BA and certainly no mention of the double and triple miles mentioned earlier in this thread.

I am also a, very small, shareholder but would actually be happy to have my investment wiped out now just to finally resolve these ridiculous employee benefits throughout the organisation. No more AD10 flights, no more free First travel for the board. All of it wiped out and new contracts issued to those who want to join the real world. I would probably even invest again in a new company. Of course, I wouldn't want to lose my Gold card or half a million miles, but they can't have everything.

Am I unreasonable?

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Not at all unreasonable; I feel exactly the same FaroFlyer.

Try updating your email address in your EC profile.

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I suggest the BA crew learn from the demise of the steel industry in the UK where pay and conditions were out of line with the market and whilst flexibility from the workforce increased in the latter years it was too late and now most of the employees are at home out of work. The way the BA crew are acting shows they are not in the real world and ultimately they will suffer. Bullying was strong in the steel industry also many years ago and it is very sad to see that it is a part of BA's crews mentality today. Also as a ferquent business traveller why do they think that BA is better than it's competitors in service on board etc this is simply something I do not recognise. Good luck to BA it will be sad to see it fail but the travellers will survive without them.

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Several Large Companies based here in Amsterdam have advised that they will not be booking British Airways at this time. The pending strike, Clear financial volatility, and colleagues say it is an un-happy Airline to fly on a this time, service cuts. I cannot imagine being in such conflict with my employer, or any decent well run business reach this point.

If i were to be away from home for 6 days, despite hotels bills paid, i would expect some payments (about £600 for long haul routes), for giving up my family & social life, & finishing work to remain in my city. These are built into "unsocial Hours" payments in the UK for professionals. Why so many BT forum readers are so scathing about the crews, when they are the people that make yr flight good or not, is strange? If you want a good Airline with top quality service, you pay for good people, like in any Company. Seems Hypocritical...Don't fly them if you appear to show such hate to the crews...?

The language used on here is a disgrace, are you not proper businessmen that cannot express a view without trying to Bully each other? Your inability & intolerance to have a discussion on these matters shows ignorance & poor Interpersonal skills. Clearly some not in very prominent business roles, this behaviour is not tolerated in good business practice.

BA - No other Airline has reached this depth of inability to work together with its employees, all face the same?

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Hi everyone !!

What a development -- it is not only the strike and probable cancellations and delays as consequences. But the most dreadful thing when I was reading this thread --- was the comment of LHR_ Crew. It is definitely your own feelings and own decision LHR_Crew to do what is important for you. But do please consider your opinion and actions in bullying those cabin crew colleagues of yours who just tend do their job regardless of their feelings about the strikes and developments involved here.

You LHR_Crew want to show BA your personally feelings about the situation -- but do please consider as well that you are alienating the pax with such attitude and of course your own colleagues. Such attitude is just frankly destructive for cabin crews and pax. It would only imply incomprehension and the feeling that such cabin crews are really " out of reach from reality". There are other sensible ways to show those in Waterside how to find a compromise which works for both sides.

Bullying fellow colleagues and treating pax badly inorder to alienate them from flying BA are definitely not the right solutions !

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In reply to Jan @ Shell, when I pay an amount of money, irrespective of what class i travel, i exepct a few things in return. 1st, i expect a good product - whilst people are free to dissagree with me, i beleive the BA product is excellent, in all classes. 2nd i expect a punctual service and in the main I get this with BA. Thirdly, I expect a polite crew, who are their to serve me, yes, i use the word serve me, becasue that is what i am paying for. I pay for my seat, i pay for the travel and i pay for the inflight service. I am not being unfair, but ijn todays economy, their is choice an dbeing a British based busienss man i thinki it is right to support British companies. When you get on a BA aircraft, esepcially when the ticket is a premium ticket, i do not expect to face a tirade of complaints from the cabin crew about having to work harder, being crew members down and not having enough time to rest. If i ask for drinks, i expect them to be served with a smile and i certainly dont expect to be ignored whilst i hear a party atmosphere in the galley. I am not sure how your company (Shell I presume) tolerates bad service after paying good money, but my company is concenred becasue its called 'getting what you pay for. Shell execs have the use of a fleet of executive jets - can you imagine the cabin crew member turning round to your Chairman and saying they would prefer not to work today?

I try hard to support British industry and in return I exepct a service level to recognize my support. Cabin crew are employed to serve their passengers, whcih is exactly the ethos of the Asian crews.

So Jan from Shell, understand I dont 'hate' the crews, i resepct them 100% - its a pity though that the crews dont return the resepct, instead of moaning and complaining about work conditions that exceed most other companies.

Perhaps, Shell would kindly offer me the service of one of their empty seats on their jets which i undersand from your flight departemnt run about 30% capcity in terms of pax to seats.

I sometimes wish this blog was not anonymous becasue then people could be accountable for their coments.

I wish you safe and happy travelling Jan and i hope you will continue to support British industry and stop worrying about havinf to work unsociable hours on occassions.

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Well said Martyn, I agree with everyhing you said 100%. Jan@shell needs to understand that people are not forced into any particular job and the cabin crew on any airline is the same. In other words if you don't like being away from home for long stints or you don't like dealing with the public, then get another job.

The attitude of LHR_crew is typical of the kind of person who should not be employed in a customer facing role, bullying other employees because they don't agree for whatever reasons is out of order.

It is quite evident Jan@shell that you don't fly BA, in fact it seems you don't fly at all, so your comments are based on third party comments that you can not confirm. You say that companies in AMS are not booking BA, well I expect if BA offer a good deal to a destination they will.

So Jan I too wish you safe and happy travels and when you have actually travelled a few sectors on BA then please let us know you views and experiences

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Hi All

Anyone know the latest on if a strike is going to happen.. ?

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Negotiations reportedly continue between the company and the union.

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Any short term reputational impact (entirely brought on by the Union's refusal to negotiate properly) will pale into insignificance when set against the structurally high costs and restrictive working practices which BA Cabin Crew exhibit.

I know it's a tough call when you are talking about people's livelihood, but the bottom line is that no other airline pays such wages in the current environment, and that has to change.

I really don't think Unite have done a very good job of negotiating on Cabin Crew's behalf; they really have no bargaining tools left now, and a strike is highly unlikely; a settlement will be reached and it's likely to be on worse conditions than would have been the case prior to this Christmas's ridiculous, childish "12 Days of Christmas" PR disaster.

Were a strike to happen now, Unite and Cabin Crew choosing to strike are on VERY shakey ground.

1. The vote authorising the strike was taken prior to the High Court judgement that Unite did not have a case that changes proposed by BA to crewing levels on board (which in any case would only change to those which have been operated by Gatwick crews, members of the same union for a number of years) constituted a change to their contractual contracts of employment.

2. Facing loss of staff travel benefits (which I think are justified per se, but are NOT contractually guaranteed) many crew will decide not to strike.

3. Enough other BA staff are trained, ready, willing and able to crew most longhaul services that even if a strike occurred, there would be minimal impact to most longhaul destinations.

Either way, Unite must give at least seven days notice prior to nay industrial action, and has also pledged not to strike "over Easter" which covers the first week in April.

I would be interested to know if there is a statute of limitations for a strike vote - for how long after a ballot result can a Union still claim a mandate to call a strike?

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The following article in The Times online explains the situation, assuming that they are right.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article7047415.ece

Essentially the union have until 22nd March to commence industrial action, and must give 7 days notice. Effectively we should know by 14th March, or in 10 days time.

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I am not British but I believe I read somewhere that under UK law, the union has 28 days after the ballot result to take or announce Strike Action. If they don't do so within that 28 day window, a new ballot must be called. I may be completely wrong here, but this is what I recall having read. As the result was called on 22 February, that would mean they have until 22 March to take or announce action/dates.

In line with BA reputation, yesterday my mom called about friends of hers travelling from the USA to Provence for Easter and their travel agent changed their flights from BA to (gasp, horror) USAir. They are obviously not happy but their travel agent said BA would be on strike and besides, they could go bust. Imagine this scene happening all across the USA and other countries, with falsehoods like these being told. For sure BA's bottom line is being hurt along with their reputation. I certainly hope, in line with what VK has said, that such a degradation in reputation will be short lived and that BA will rebound stronger from all this mess.

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Just last night came back from Basel to LGW on Easyjet. Would have preferred BA (as a shareholder) but they fly less often to my most convenient airport and wanted twice the price. As far as I could see, sitting in row 1, the EJ staff did what BA staff do. Same safety, same announcement, same trolleys etc. Style is different (less formal, but no less secure). If BA price reflects high staff costs, then they need to get those down in order to be competitive. Wake up BA crews to the real competitive world out there. Your firm is losing £4 million EACH DAY.

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1. It is perfectly reasonable for benefits to vary between staff performing the very same function. It is only the Union which "says" this not legal, as it is in their interest to keep everyone on the same contracts, which shores up their position. Legally, they don't have a leg to stand on, and once again the Union has it wrong.

2. I am not really talking about the staff travel for hols etc. - as you well know many crew commute from places like Scotland, Manchester, Newcastle and even Southern Europe (permanent non-UK residents etc.) to perform their duties. I know this happens because I see and chat to these people regularly on my travels. Losing these benefits would often make such a lifestyle uneconomical.

3. It doesn't really matter what most BA staff think, as even a small number would be able to operate a substantial service, thus rendering a strike impotent. Lufthansa crews' opinions have no relevance whatsoever to this argument; they are currently being undercut themselves by bmi crews who are being kept in a job by Lufty's management's decision to use them on Lufty services.

4. A pilot can perform cabin crew duties with minimal training, the same is not the case for relatively (and I am sorry to say this, but I have to be blunt here) moderately skilled cabin crew. The major barrier to entry is security clearance and the union closed shop, NOT scarcity of the ability to do the job/training. CC have no leverage when it comes to barriers to entry.

5. Rather than looking to keep costs high and imperil the survival of the airline, perhaps union management would better serve the membership which pays their 100k-plus pay packets by working to create profitable conditions at BA, and setting out to encourage management to improve their already positive policy of rewarding staff on the basis of the airline's performance, with basic salaries guarantteed, rather than struggling to maintain outdated contracts and terms & conditions for those joining the airline as new employees today. BA management is NOT proposing to alter existing contracts of employment as far as I am aware; there would be new working T&Cs, which already exist (union approved!) successfully for Gatwick crew, and new contracts for new joiners, but NO CHANGE for existing employment contracts.

6. Management get paid more because they have specialist skills, and have experience in this area. The cost of 1,000 managers pales into insignificance to the 13,000 (or whatever the current number) of cabin crew. Many managers have alreay been made redundant, WW himself took a pay cut last year (I know it's not the same if you earn that pay scale as taking a cut as cabin crew, but the gesteure was made, and that should not be forgotten or used against him).

7. BA is an internationally traded company. Its headquarters will soon be in Madrid and once it merges with AA (which will surely happen, sure as eggs is eggs) the country of ownership/influence will hardly be the UK at all. So the point on ownership is that by carrying on like this, you will shorten the already tenuous UK ownership of BA, and risk a far worse situation, that of closing the airline and setting up NewCo with Cabin Crew on Easyjet style contracts, possibly owned by Etihad or some such who are not known for their generosity with cabin crew. Would I as a passenger notice? I have to say, probably not that much. Virgin manages to recruit friendly, "BA style" people just fine.

So, I am so sad to read all the union generated guff that is being parroted on here and by other cabin crew I speak with. It really saddens me that you cannot grasp the wider implications of the situation.

In my view, bring on a strike, let the airline proceed to bankruptcy, and have done with the old contracts and pension liabilities all together.

I fly BA (a lot!) because I think BA cabin crew are indeed special. But plebty of people choose their airline based purely on cost. Some will base it on service, and while I am fortunate to nearly always experience excellent on board service, there are many others here (anecdotally) who do not; BA crew are an important part of the BA culture, but theyr should not feel they are any more special than an Easyjet crewmember, they are not *that* special, and nor do they have a god/Union given right to employment at a hiostrically higher rate of pay and allowances than any other airline operating in the UK marketplace.

Thankfully they have a hefty cash cushion right now to help them ride out the storm, but this union actions is doing untold harm to BA and to the Union members themselves, and no-one is winning from this Union inspired ego trip. No-one.

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VK, don't forget that the hefty cash position is not the result of years of profit not distributed. It is customers paying in advance for flights they have yet to take. If you took those pre-payments out the cash balance would look very bad indeed. It is a little bit like using "clients" money for day to day trading. Not to be recommended.

If you remember, when Northern Rock crashed, Sir Richard asked Lloyds how safe they were, and said that he wanted to move his airline cash balance to another bank. He pointed out that it was not his money, nor his company's money but his customers' money that they had entrusted to the airline. Same with BAs hefty cash pile.

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Agreed.

Cash is partially in accessible funds but mostly in pre-agreed loan facilities.

Enough to keep the airline going for up to two years without a profit, but cabin crew posters would be well advised to spend time having these numbers explained to them; the position is in line with other simlar airlines. While not imminently threatening the viability of the airline, is most serious.

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WW is addressing the troops as we speak, no doubt appraising them of the seriousness of this situation.

BA should have 1,000+ volunteer replacement cabin crew fully trained within the next week or so.

800 out of 1,100 LGW cabin crew have signed up to work over any industrial action.

30 wet lease aircraft are available to BA with cabin crews to cover a significant amount of short haul without touching the volunteers.

I really don't see any strike having significant impact on most operations. The Union is powerless.

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If there are BA cabin crew who think they can do better elsewhere then I'd have thought they'd leave rather than stay behind and strike.

History has seen many British industries fold as unions demanded the right to not change according to market conditions, so the market moved, businesses went elsewhere. One need only look at the Lufthansa empire and the Air France/KLM group to see how both are positioning themselves to face the continued pressure from LCCs on the one hand, lower cost base foreign competitors from Asia and the Middle East.

One of BA's (and other European full service airlines') cash cows has largely evaporated in the form of Club Europe, as short haul business class retreats to a niche rather than a core of business travel. As Open Skies moves ever forward, the temptation for a BA/AA/IB carrier will be to notice how many BA routes are cheaper served by the other partners.

Meanwhile, the band of Trotskyites will still think they are waging a class war, forgetting that the 20th century ended some time ago.

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We should have lunch sometime, ScottWilson ;)

More evidence the strike is not going to happen:

- 6000 staff have volunteered to "Back BA"

- In the event of a strike LGW longhaul would operate to 100%, shorthaul 50%

- The plans are more sketchy for LHR with a promise to keep all 777s operating (more than half the fleet)

- BA have enough volunteers to run the 777 fleet throughout a strike

- BA have agreements in place with other airlines for rerouting

- 70% of LGW staff have agreed to work during a strike

- There are agrrements for 23 wet lease aircraft to be used during a strike

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Wish I had your confidence VK !

I think given adamant stance of Unite there will be some action even though BA may run some flights with volunteers etc.

I believe that a promise not to strike at Easter may still be devastating if they strike before that say on 30/31 March which would have a huge knock on effect.

Similarly a strike on 7/8 April would leave thousands stranded after the holiday.

Still think my visit to the Concorde room and subsequent Asian travel is in jeopardy along with all other BA travellers on or around those dates.

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Well, I'm backing BA and keeping my longhaul 777 operated flights with them; they will re-accommodate me if by some rare occurrence my flight is not crewed by staff who see the writing on the wall..

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Me and my families loyalty has earned us 2 BA miles trips in F to HKG but on 747. Work out the miles and rate the loyalty.

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It is no smokescreen.

The figures I posted are accurate, not made up.

You are parrotting the very personal attacks on WW which the Union encourages. No alternative CEO would act differently from the way he has done. None.

The Bollinger Grande Annee and Perrier Jouet Belle Epoque are satisfactory First champagnes in a world where very few people actually know what they are drinking anyway. Many have to make cutbacks and especially those in premium cabins understand that.

The fact is, it is corporate travel and expense polices which largely dictate revenues for BA; they have been slashed and I mean SLASHED. Intra-Europe business cabins are at great risk, not because WW wants to have done with them, but because your core business passengers are often no longer permitted to purchase them.

If you look at the figures, BA has been and will once again become a highly profitable business in a very high risk industry. Ultimately, as a passenger and a shareholder (and was I crew, I would want the same thing) I want the airline to be PROFITABLE above all else; that permits the financial flexibility to keep everyone happy.

BA is in an industry more internationalised than most, and its cost structure it way out of kilter with those other operators; that hampers its ability to invest in its products and services, and the Union has done more than most workers' groups to drive down revenues, diminish the service offering, and endanger its own members' livelihoods.

Your Union is membership currently trying to negotiate the removal of pre-flight champagne in Club World as part of a face saving deal....and in the same breath you talk of WW being hell-bent on making BA become like Ryanair. WAKE UP! It is the Union itself which is causing these service diminutions NOT management.

It's fair to say that while many were initially sympathetic to BA Cabin Crew, the more we learn about their Union and working practices, the more we see the truth of the situation.

You only have to see the excerpts from the thread "the truth about BASSA" to understand that these Union practices are true, and direct from the horses mouth.

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Well said VK. The Lanson Noble One isn't too bad either.

Qantas has gone through a similar situation as BA with it's CC; highly unionised, to his credit Geoff Dixon took them on and had some wins.

They now have UK based crew, Aust based long haul and short haul crews [both unionised] and A380 CC- all employed by a seperate company ACA, which is now being also used to employ all new cabin crew on all aircraft types on less generous packages.

Qantas had to change quickly as it was competing against Asian and ME carriers with much lower cost bases.

Have these changes had an adverse effect on the in flight service? No, in fact it has improved. The UK crew are young and enthusiastic. On a recent flight from MEL/HKG/LHR we had an Aust based crew to HKG - okay service and UK based crew from HKG. Working upstairs in J was an Aust and a Swede CC, all on UK inferior contracts, according to the Aust cabin crew union, and they loved the job, the service was great, the same on the A380 LAX/MEL.

Qantas today has it's problems like most legacy carriers, but they are making the hard and right decisions and seeing the rewards.None of these changes have had any adverse effect on customer service?

They are even pouring Tattinger Comtes in First Class which is on a par with Krug in my book!

On a recent flight from ABV/LHR a BA CC member said to me that WW was trying to destroy the union and in turn would destroy the airline. He also said that WW wanted to take them down the QF path but that they would never accept it. Time will tell.

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Received by email a moment ago:

A message from CEO, Willie Walsh

I wanted to update you on what we propose to do in the event that a strike does go ahead.

Unite, the union that represents our BA cabin crew, has not as yet announced any strike dates.

It must tell us by 15 March whether a strike will happen and it cannot go on strike without first giving us seven days notice of the first day.

In the meantime we continue to have talks with Unite and we want to resolve the issues between us.

I want to reassure you that a strike will not ground British Airways. We have had nearly 6,000 volunteers in total to support our flying programme, including nearly 1,000 who have trained as cabin crew and the number is growing.

We have been putting plans into place and although we cannot announce the precise schedule we will operate until we know for sure what Unite would do, I can tell you what our plans are.

We will operate all our flights from London City airport, including long-haul services to New York.

We will operate all our long-haul schedule at London Gatwick, and about half of our short-haul schedule.

At London Heathrow, we will operate a substantial proportion of our long-haul programme and a good number of short-haul flights too, assisted by chartered aircraft with crews from a number of UK and European-based airlines. We have at least 23 aircraft available to us over an extended period.

All BA CityFlyer, codeshare and franchise flights will continue to operate as normal.

We have also arranged to secure seats from other carriers, so thousands more of you can reach your chosen destinations.

At this stage our plans do not include crew at London Heathrow who may choose to work normally. More than 4,000 of all crew did not vote for strike action.

I would like to thank you for standing by us in recent weeks. Despite all the uncertainty Unite has created since it announced its ballot in January, passenger numbers for February were actually higher than a year ago, and our premium traffic rose for the first time in 18 months.

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Do my figures still "astound you", geohoveuk?

While individual crew deserve our support, Unite/BASSA/Amicus does not.

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To: geohoveuk - I hope you and your colleagues (and Unite) read and digest VintageKrug's comments instead of burying your heads in the sand.

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You haven't answered VK's question geohoveuk... and from what you say, it sounds as if you are being misinformed by your 'friends' at BA.

Perhaps it would be a good idea if you took the trouble to appraise yourself of the facts.

I suggest that the relationship between some employees (crew) and management at BA is poor because crew are continuing to stamp their feet like spoilt children who have lost an argument!

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I also agree with you BA tis the best service

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I am backing BA too. Booked across the pond with the family. Will not change now and have confidence that my flight will operate and, that if disaster does strike, that BA will take care of us. The fact that strike dates have not been announced is clear evidence that the TU is desperate to find a get out of jail card. The memership are being very poorly served.

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Leading a business through economic turbulence coupled with 'market changing' times requires great skill & focus.

Revenue downturn from competition & a poor economic climate seriously effect cash flow & viability.

It would be a very sad & stupid day if BA's bankruptcy is brought about by its own staff & Unite.

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It is important to separate individual Cabin Crew from their often incompetent union representatives.

BA's management has done well to keep the airline as profitable as it has (and it did make a profit in Q4) in the very challenging circumstances of the past 18 months.

The UK and US have been hit harder than most in the downturn, and BA's business model is geared to maximise profit and provide capacity for high margin business travellers on North American routes in particular; BA suffers more than most in a downturn, and profits more than most in an upturn.

There has been a fundamental shift from US/European centre of gravity to Asian markets; the successes elsewhere are demand driven, and most carriers have a similar "formula" to that exhibited by BA. The UK/US and European business market COLLAPSED and, in longhaul at least, is slowly returning to a recovery state, as borne out by recent BA traffic numbers.

Despite this, BA Management have continued their strategic investment (AVOD in all classes, Next Gen Club World, new First on the way, new routes and innovative new services such as Open Skies and CWLCY, new Galleries lounges network wide, as well as a fully funded fleet replacement programme).

BA Management have continually been available to the main Unions for talks, while the Unions refused to meet BA as they themselves would not sit in the same room as each other (let alone BA Management) for talks due to their own internal union infighting.

Recap

A quick recap of BAs final proposal before the June 09 deadline: New crewing levels (since imposed), New disruption agreement (since imposed), Reduced downroute rest, an improved profit share scheme (now off the table), but most importantly no new fleet. You won't find many cabin crew who wouldn't enthusiastically return to that deal now with the reduced rest replaced by some other small tweak.

So the last nine months have resulted in the loss of that original deal and now with the massive uncertainty for employees of the now real "new fleet", allowing a lower paid workforce to be introduced to run BA cabin services at a more sensible cost.

Along the way BA Cabin Crew Unions have lost the respect of the public, and in many cases the respect and allegiance of their own members.

The Union leadership have lied time and time again, and never admitted mistakes despite two High court judgements against them that show them in the most appalling light.

BASSA/Unite have cost BA tens of millions, cost their own members millions in court costs and wasted ballots.

They have lost the element of surprise, enabled a volunteer workforce to be trained that will now always be there for future ballots, and caused new fleet to start.

That is what BASSA have achieved.

Let's see what ignominious climbdown they have planned for their members next week...

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Geohoveuk - you say "And it even baffles me still, I was unable to book a last minute recently on a return flight from HKG in Club (not an unusual occurance) - how is BA managing revenue? Poorly I assume." Urrrrrr! sorry but if you are unable to book a last minute flight in Club does that not tell you it is FULL!

How does a full premium cabin say that BA is managing revenue poorly? Read what VK has said, it makes sense.

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Can't really see the point you are trying to make geohoveuk. Let me see if I understand. The flights you want to book on are full so you think that BA is making loads of money, but they are saying they are not making money, so they must be mismanaging the revenue? I think you have to see the wider picture rather than just flights to/from HKG.

Do you not see that training "all" those additional crew is an investment? If there is a strike then many flights will be able to operate normally, saving money. Crews know that there are these people waiting in the wings to do the job, lessening the effect of a strike, therefore saving money. Its a kind of insurance policy, not only for now but in the future. That is sound business sense

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And at any rate, the need to invest to train extra crew is a (relatively modest) cost ENTIRELY made necessary by BASSA and the Union Trots.

Seems the Union are close to agreeing a climbdown, as they know they haven't got a leg to stand on.

As I predicted, they haven't the stomach for a strike. So let's summarise:

- 3.5% pay cut.

- £1.2million extra costs borne by Union membership for the lost court case.

- Damaged Union credibility after the ridiculous 12 days of Christmas strike threat.

- Almost universal removal of public support for hard working cabin crew.

- Tens of millions lost by BA as a result of bookings made elsewhere, some of which will never return.

- BASSA has got itself a worse deal than was on the table last year.

- Union power at BA broken by Willie Walsh

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It is likely BASSA/Unite will concede to a climbdown on Tuesday. Strike now highly unlikely.

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geohoveuk -

"protect what little they have"

- it's FACT that if your friends/colleagues at BA worked for your 'champion' Richard Branson, they would earn roughly half what they are getting at BA and even less at some other airlines!

Despite this, you seem to be trying to argue that they are hard done by and that WW is a bully for standing up to unionised thuggery.

I say good on you Willie Walsh.

Geo', the world has changed. Get real - and get back to work!

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Well done BA and Willie Walsh...

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Those on this board who are on Twitter might like to follow http://twitter.com/BA_Headlines you will get a selection of press comment on this issue

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Guardian online a few minutes ago

BA cabin crew strike looms amid airline doubts over pay cut proposalUnion proposals including 2.6% pay reduction have not been accepted unconditionally by BA managers

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Current update below - looks like they have been given more time

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/mar/09/british-airways-cabin-crew-strike

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Here's Unite's final offer to BA:

http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/UniteFinal.doc

Includes mixed New Fleet and a 2.6% pay cut.

Significantly less good than BA's original offer.

Also a reduction in food for longhaul crew - they now get only World Traveller, rather than Club World food.

I feel sorry for those who put their trust in these people; a worse deal for crew, a worse deal for passengers who have wavered over booking trips, a bad deal for BA corporately and months of making Britain look like the 1970s sinkhole it is once again threatening to become.

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Brilliant - more value add from Unite

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BA Management hold all the cards now; BASSA/Unite haven't a leg to stand on.

BA has rejected the offer above. Press conference noon tomorrow...

This has all the tension and excitement of an Archers episode!

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Still think they are militant enough to call a strike no matter how futile or not it may be.

Loss of club food no big deal, next time you dont get first option guess where its gone !

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Hi everyone !

As I have stated before I am primarily for the crews. But seriously and objectively-- this is way too long and getting worse than better; the unions are starting to lose the public's sympathy. Now we are talking that crews are getting Y class foods ..the worst case is.. when the crews feel that they do not need to do their job respectively on board than I think we have more than the problem of not only getting our first option during meals in C cabins .

Pray that they wont decide impulsively 'cause of the tension is so high that they only think : a strike is the last solution.

My plans to fly with BA in the coming months are starting to get into serious trouble when they proceed with this development.

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Nothing to be gained from a strike; I have just booked my next three weeks' trips on BA, as well as a longhaul on one of the strike-busting 777s.

Onwards!

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Breaking News

British Airways Strike Talks Break Down

No further talks planned.

Sky news 10 mins ago.

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I saw the news on sky --- this is not real ? What is going on? This is really serious. I wished I am so confident like others that it won't affect me and my flights. But it is far from that. I thing most of us here are annoyed and fed up with all this useless talkings and on the other hand - want that they finally have a decent agreement tied up. Waiting what the parties will do tomorrow and the following days -- I think that is what is left for us here. Wait and See.

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Got long haul in F booked in the danger period prior Easter.

Also 3 Club E flights April, May , June.

If uncertainty continues will NOT book BA until this mess is sorted out.

Dont know how BA crew will be able to greet inconvenienced PAX if strike goes ahead.

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Salaam Aleikum

This is circus.

Very bad company and workers.

Deserve to go bust.

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Everyone is very much aware that this situation rests firmly at the door of BASSA/Unite and crew who mistakenly put their trust in BASSA/Unite.

BA cabin crew have lost the confidence of the public, and are damaging the airline in a way management could never do.

A very great shame.

I would remind those cautious about booking that it is BA Management, with the support of those more rational or well informed crew who recognise the seriousness of the situation, who have put in place the following contingencies which should mitigate much of the disruption any strike might entail:

- 7000 staff have volunteered to "Back BA"

- In the event of a strike LGW longhaul would operate to 100%, shorthaul 50%

- The plans are more sketchy for LHR with a promise to keep all 777s operating (more than half the fleet)

- BA have enough volunteers to run the 777 fleet throughout a strike

- BA have agreements in place with other airlines for rerouting

- 70% of LGW staff have agreed to work during a strike

- There are agreements for 23++ wet lease aircraft to be used during a strike

Here's Unite's final offer to BA:

http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/UniteFinal.doc

The link to the BASSA/Unite final settlement submission nicely demonstrates why BASSA union reps will never agree to a simplified structure, eliminating all those intricate clauses on turnaround times etc inherited a generation ago from BEA / BOAC etc.

There are simply too many elements on which they can negotiate and tie the company down to demonstrate their power.

Only way to simplify the business (and protect the current workforce) is to kill this incompetent union and replace it with rational workforce representation who can lead BA and its workforce back to profit, supported by Management.

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Well said VintageKrug....the crew are better off contributing their monthly Unite subscription to a worthy charity.....

Singapore, here I come (still with BA.....they need all the support they can get right now and I'm totally with BA Management on this)....flight next Wed 17th Mar !

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Best thing to happen would be if Willie Walsh has to leave - he is destroying the airline as he has others in the past. All cabin crews grievances are with his poor attitude.

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I'm flying to Miami next Friday 19th - on a 747. So if a strike goes ahead, it looks like there's a good chance my flight will be cancelled.

So be it. If I have to go via JFK or somewhere, that's what I'll do. I'm backing BA - and their management - it's the only way to get rid of this 1970's union behaviour for good!

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I'm flying to Lusaka on a 767 next Sunday 21st - backing BA all the way.

Unions have no place in the modern world.

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It's good to see people backing BA.

I personally believe there is a place for pragmatic, modern business-minded workforce representation, especially in highly cyclical and less well paid industries.

BASSA/Unite is not in that mould and its incompetent representation of its own membership deserves everything that is coming to it.

You only need take a look at their website to see this:

http://uniteba.com/

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VintageKrug - Agreed, so long as the union is modern, professional and knows it's stuff!

looking on the unite website (http://uniteba.com/) if first impressions are anything to go by, these guys fail miserably. I mean, it's a complete mess, how can anyone take them seriously? As for pictures of WW with red 'devil' eyes, I don't see that as being constructive or professional in any sense!

I am just hoping that the CC see sense, come in to work, and see past their own needs and think of the thousands of other people employed by or who are customers of BA.

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Flying Sydney on 12th back on 16th...am I right is assuming all will be ok because BA have to give a weeks notice of strike action? Bet VintageKrug knows!

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Omanpat - you are correct. The earliest the strike's could start is 7 days from the announcement, so if they announce today, it'd be 7 days from now. They must also commence by 22nd March (28 days from the announcement of the result of the ballot).

In reality, that means 19th, 20th, 21st or 22nd for the commencement of the strike.

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Hi,

Does that mean that even if they annouce today that the earliest the strike could take place would be next Friday (19th). I fly on the 18th to DXB ! Wasn't sure if today counted as day 1!

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Thankyou JordanD...very quick answer! Will consider NOT travelling BA after this trip. This is a shame as the less I travel with BA...my gold card status will be affected! (although I want products with the miles not MORE flights!). Anyway..thanks to everyone for all your information and opinions. They are very usefull.

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I think that very soon, the risk of strikes such as this will be eliminated.

At any rate, BA operates a Joint Services Agreement with Qantas on this route so most pax will be re-accommodated onto QF services if BA cannot run its strike-busting 777s on these routes. As it is most crew will be keen to operate this highly lucrative route, so I would suggest Kangaroo will be relatively unaffected.

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What do you mean by " highly lucrative"? Even more Perks? I am going on business and I get one day there (and I even have to work then.) ..what do BA staff get? Perhaps I shouldn't know...but I want to!

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omanpat -

The crew get 2 or 3 nights in a 5 star hotel and several hundred ££s to spend on food AND a bonus for operating a long sector each way.

Oh, but their union tell them that they are hard done by and should go on strike - and they believe it !!

Get real BA crew - and your union- we all have to fly all over the place with very little rest sometimes to earn our living!

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a slight exaggeration... in fact they only get the 1 night in sydney, rest of time is couple of nights each way in bkk/sin. And nowhere near 'several hundred' pounds..

and just in case u think im on their side, im not. they do need to get over themselves and get on with it... got a flight on 747 booked for 19th.. wish the news would hurry up

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Oh...thats ok then. Overnight in Sydney ( 5 star hotel) and a " couple of nights in bkk/sin"(5 star again?) . Thats soooo hard!

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Actually it's nobody's business on any of these forums what BA’s Cabin Crew remuneration is. I don’t see any of the members contributing here rushing to provide details of exactly what they get compensated.

All you should be worried about is that the employees are generally satisfied with their work package (which affects the service level provided to customers) and that the company is making a profit.

The opinions of those who believe the crew are overcompensated are generally irrelevant. Do you think any workforce if polled are going to say they think they are overpaid?

If the belief is that CC are vastly over compensated then that surely has to be a direct reflection of incompetent management over the years for letting it get to this stage.

Sure there has to be some change but there also has to be flexibility from both sides.

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geohoveuk - there's nothing petty at all about a 5* hotel. Can your 'source' tell you exactly what financial benefits and how many days rest a crew member receives on a LHR/SIN/LHR sector?

I travel as a passenger on the upper deck of a 747 regularly and the removal of the purser (which the unions fought tooth and nail) makes no difference at all. As for managers being 'forced to partake in the service' - isn't that what a manager should do in order 'manage'?

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Redflyer - a lot of us have paid thousands of pounds for tickets that we may not be able to use over the coming weeks and as passengers, we've all been held to ransom by the strike threats the union and some crew have been making.

We are owed an explanation which justifies this behaviour.

I'm still waiting!

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First-pax : Well said.

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You keep moaning about your terms and conditions - and threatening to strike because they are so bad - but when challenged to justify yourselves, bury your heads in the sand by refusing to answer perfectly reasonable questions...

WW is showing the guts needed to break the union stronghold and 1970's thuggery that has blighted BA for too long now.

Good on you WW !

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It is definitely not good for BA when the loyal pax are thinking whether they book their flights or not. And now we are arguing if the crews really deserve their earnings and privileges. Honestly--not only the probable strike, but I am seriously thoughtful of the crew's attitude on board. I mean do they really could bear such pressure and ignore it and just move on with their daily routine onboard? They are just humans like us -- so if you feel threatened, you behave aggressively and defensive. I am not telling that those crews will start behaving appallingly, but some will definitely have anger smoldering in their stomach ! And as human beings we are -- we could misbehaved in a certain fashion... I am still planning and counting on BA and in those probable strike days...Just hope QF and CX will save and rescue during such probable cancellations.

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you may not be popular Willie..but carry on with your job...keep cuctomers happy and re booking...keep BA alive. Drop the dross. I support you... And I know he reads this blog!

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Omanpat - I agree.

WW - Get it done.

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What a comment by Redflyer :

If the belief is that CC are vastly over compensated then that surely has to be a direct reflection of incompetent management over the years for letting it get to this stage.

"Well carry on with such intransigent stupidity & there will be no BA"

Carry on WW !!

I have had to hedge my bets because of Unite's stupid game with the passengers .. I'm holding an F ticket on BA ex SFO and a VS J Class.

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I don't think their vastly overcompensated. It's more the complex T&Cs which restrict flexibility which are to blame and WW is rightly focussing on those.

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Unite press conference 11am this morning !

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Yes you are right VintageKrug, but judging by a lot of the comments on this thread we would be led to believe that WW is a white knight riding in to rid the aviation world of the nasty evil cabin crew and their devil incarnate leader "Unite".

A little perspective is needed me thinks.

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Go the White Knight! WW is not perfect, and cabin crew are certainly not evil. Unite on the other hand.....

Remember if you need to get to the US that JFK-LCY services remain unaffected by any strike action, and still offer First Class levels of Tier Points:

www.ba.com/clubworldlondoncity

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BA cabin crew to strike for three days from 20 March and for four days from 27 March - BBC News.

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Advice Please

We are booked in F longhaul 747 on 30th - should we tough it out in the hope it will all go away or rebook the following day ?

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I'm going to sit it out until BA announce their revised schedule....If you are booked in F, can you not book a fully refundable flight with another airlike in F?

Always helps to cover all bases!

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Travellator: there's a huge amount of brinkmanship at play in such circumstances. Although the outlook is clearly far from positive, there is still the opportunity for the strike to be averted.

If the strikes do go ahead, then BA will announce a detailed commercial policy, the terms of which will allow you to make a considered judgment on how to proceed.

That judgment should be based on the fact that again, if a strike goes ahead, then aircraft will likely still be out of position and simply moving to the next day's flight may not practically improve your position.

My personal advice: sit tight for the moment and keep a close eye on ba.com.

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Thanks Continentalclub.

Will sit it out, there is plenty of availability in F over the following few days.

Complication is we are Redemption + Voucher !

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VintageKrug has rather helpfully restarted this mammoth thread elsewhere.

Please continue your discussion here:

http://www.businesstraveller.com/discussion/topic/Unite-BASSA-to-Strike-20-3-for-3-Days,-27-3-for-4-Days

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Good idea - have you tried scrolling through this number of posts on an i phone ?

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My BA LGW-MAN flight on the 23/3/10 was operated by a Jet2 737 with 142 seats. A fairly full flight had three cabin crew who coped with the refreshment service with efficient speed.

Two weeks ago BA LHR-MAN an A319 with 126 seats had SIX, yes 6, cabin crew!!

Perhaps Willie Walsh is right...things do need to change.

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Sorry geohoveuk, but does Cathay Pacific have historical problems with highly paid staff and the threat of strikes from Unions ?

Yes they've built upon their quality product, but ultimately they would've returned to profitability through managed control of their cost base - this is what I believe willie walsh is trying to achieve.

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I think the key point here is that he's not spent the last 18 months negotiating - he's spent the lat 18 months dictating what will happen whether the crew like it or not. Negotiation requires both parties to talk and listen in equal measure and its been very one sided from what I understand from those who have actually been involved.

I am not (for one minute) saying the unions are blameless in this whole fiasco however BA management could have done a substantial amount more for actual negotiation and this could have been averted.

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The harmonious labor relations and profitability of Cathay Pacific that Geohoveuk describes is frankly nonsense. Cathay has real and continuing industrial problems with cabin crew and a strike was threatened only last week. As for profitability, the only reason that Cathay was able to announce a reasonable profit was because the sold off a major shareholding in a subsidiary company to their parent Swire.

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1. The Unite package which was offered could NOT have met structural cost saving objectives and in any rate was only offered in the short term, and was conditional on being reversed at the first sign of an upturn. So stop talking rubbish.

2. BA is losing millions because of intransigent Unions hampering working practices. Deny this? Want proof? Just check out the "Truth about BASSA" thread where you can see idiocy like Union reps refusing a hot towel run in WT+ unless a whole EXTRA crewmember be rostered on every longhaul flight. FACT:

www.uniteba.com/LGWLHRhottowels.html

This sort of idiocy is only one example of the time wasted negotiating with Union dullards.

3. The City and BA Board continue to support BA, as is indicated by the continuing rise f the share price. If WW caves into the Unions now, the shareprice will collapse.

4. It is not just BA which is losing millions - this Unite decision to strike cost millions of pounds in lost revenue across the UK and globally for other firms. Most importantly, it also reduces the pot BA has for improving pay and working conditions for its own employees. No-one (except Unite leadership) benefits from this strike. No-one.

5. The word is paltry not "poultry". Poultry is chicken. But then as you no doubt have a doctorate in economic sciences as well as decades of CEO level experience to inform your frankly laughable comments, you probably knew that.

VintageKrug has rather helpfully restarted this mammoth thread elsewhere.

Please continue your discussion here:

http://www.businesstraveller.com/discussion/topic/Unite-BASSA-to-Strike-20-3-for-3-Days,-27-3-for-4-Days

BEST TO CONTINUE DISCUSSION IN THE OTHER THREAD

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....well I did say that the union is making BA smell like a farmyard....

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I just have some questions maybe someone can help me :

Have the Union or BA consider in the deal that when the company running profit they will get a raise or bonus ?

Coz is not possible to get profit with this current situation for BA, and the Union should see it .

And what kind of Education this Union people have behind them ?

I hope I dont upset many now, but what I have seen and learn from the world people with NO education within their field will only destroy their company or country!

Ex : Just take a look at Vietnam and Zimbawe two nations who was top in the Economy and lifestyle, and now running by NON education people and ruin their country.

I just hope BA Crew know about their leader competance and what they can help the company to survive NOT only what is best for the Crew. Mr WW has show his competance before, and frankly I see what he is doing now is very positive. Have some confidence on the CEO and give him a chance to show that his plan will work or not before starting a mess like this !

I hope all fellow traveller havent got into trouble of this strike!

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I don't know what kind of business you are in Geohoveuk and you don't say how many are in your "team". You do have to get this in perspective, is you team unionised? If not ask yourself if they went on strike does that mean you have failed. But does it not tell you something when all services are operating at LGW? Loads of support there. And as someone said earlier, they have operated more out of LHR than on a foggy day.

Sorry but you clearly have no real idea of running a large business is about, read what VK and Jackley says. Willie Walsh is right not to give in to these union bullies, the bullies sat in their nice warm offices whilst a small number of ill informed cabin crew freeze their nuts off out on the cobbles! The union is right behind you!!!

These crew changes should have happened long time ago, way before they took things away from the fare paying passengers, such as hot towels in Club Europe, sandwiches after 1000, etc. So don't you think geohoveuk, that BA have looked after its staff infront of passengers during these troubled times?

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This forum is extremely interesting and there are one or two people who really shine brightly in terms of contributions. NTarrant is one who i give 'resepct' to as is 'VK' who seems to be in all places at one time. This place is a far better place for having contirnutions from these 2!

However, the recent comments aimed at Geohoveuk about "no idea of running a large business" are way of mark in connection with the BA / Unite dispute. Why should the likes of Geohoveuk (hell of a name there) and to that extent myself have our travel plans be put is dissarray just becase Walsh and Unite are playing 'how to run a large company - how to destroy a large company". The plain and simple facts are that Unite have wthdrawn their labour, BA are unable to operate effectively.

Its not about giving in or who is bullying who, it is about finding a solution. if we take VK and NTarrants view, then there is never going to be a solution. Its like a child and a parent at logger heads about about how much time the child can spend on his PS3.

Personally i think BA needs a fresh leader as this action can not be made to be the focus of a general election but on the basis that Walsh will not step down, then I beleive termination notices should be sent to every employee refusing to work. Failing this, then put the company into liquidation and start again like Swiss have done.

It is an absolute disgrace that a face off of this nature can occur in British Industry, timed as it is, just before a general election. Somebody earlier on said the only people that count are the business onwers the shareholders - all I know is that it sickens me to the teeth to buy airline tickets and fund anither country's economy, when my country UK, England, Great Britain or what ever other term we use, needs my business more than a foreign airline.

My only message is to Walsh and co, Unite and co, stop beinmg arrogant little sods, get off yourhigh hirses and sort this problem out like adults. Its not about 'winning a game' its about peoples lives and their abiloty to pay mortgages as well as being able to work and get to work. I am sure a group of 11 year olds could sort this mess out far better and quicker than the current band of players who are just too arragant to see the wood from the trees.

Amen - let move on.........................

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I find it a little strange that some subscribers to this forum seem to think that the changes needed are new, and that it has all been rushed. BA, and WW, have been trying to make changes to save the airline from continuously teetering near the brink. True, the financial condition is no the same as some American airlines have experienced, but equally true is the fact that a Chapter 11 type reconstruction, and re-writing of all contracts, does not exist in the UK.

To my knowledge there has never been a major quoted plc that has entered administration and emerged as a pre-pack, as the facility does not exist. If it did then it would have happened some time back.

The unions know that there must be change, or eventually receivership will take place. Both parties have been "in negotiation" for well over a year, and Unite / BASSA are using the term negotiation as a delaying tactic. They have gained their members a full year respite already. Negotiation has failed so it is time for management to manage and move on. As happens to the rest of us, if we don't like the changes then we must all "move on". Yes, it is tough for the 45 year old mentioned by geohoveuk, but so what? It is also tough for the guys on Tyneside now that the Redcar furnace is closed. Striking did not stop that happening, and nor should it.

This dispute is about unions delaying the implementation of urgently needed changes to bring BA working practices into the 21st century, not stuck in a 70s timewarp. Timing of a general election should be of no interest to company or employees, but is being used as such by a union struggling for it's own long term existence.

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It really is interesting reading these threads..We all have our opinion which is everyone's right, but as in all disputes you never hear the whole story..

I have just come back from a day with the BA crew at Bedfont Sports ground,supporting my wife ..PLEASE...They are NOT Militant's or as was stated in another thread " very vocal aggresive badly led staff "..They are LOYAL workers,many there for 30-35 years who are very sad at having to take this action..They ALL and I mean ALL want to see there rights to work not abused by WW who appears hell bent on changing the company..Never forget it is the Workers who are the Union and the Workers make BA..The support was fantactic,but as I said earlier NONE of them was happy with the strike..

Some older CC were in physically crying at the thought that this great airline that they have worked for, proudly, was being changed without any thought...As to the amount of flights departing, it is strange that one plane spotter who had been there all day saw the same 747 take off and land 3...YES 3 times after approx a 35 minute flight..Strange..I dont know of any destination that a 747 flies to and back within 35 minutes..read into that what you will...I hope , and ALL the CC I saw today, hope that there can be an agreement reached soon,so that hundreds of loyal and proud BA empoyees can get back to doing what they do best, and that is serving the public with the best service on what is the best airline..So don't judge everyone with what you read in the newspapers..Give them some understanding whether you agree with the strike or not..Thanks for taking the time and effort to read this article and hopefully this thread will not be repeated..

metmanmart

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Faroflyer - all very interesting and Martin Priestnall - i know how it feels having worked for with an american corporation for 21 years prior to redundancy 9 years ago. The rhetoric is all interesting, but at the end of the day, both sides are stuck - unwilling to budge - and on the brink - so, what do you do - just hang loose until one side decides to make a move - or try something new.

Maybe the way BA is being run is a recipe for disaster and maybe Unite have their own agenda, but still there are approximately 40,000 lives directly involved and will be affected by the next move. So, yes BA need to implement change, yes the unions need to accept change, but hey, its not happening so what happens next - it seems that nobody knows, but bottom line is we all care.

So for G-d's sake somebody, take the intiative and do something positive!

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FYI....

Just flew BA on one of last days of strike Nairobi to London Heathrow in ECONOMY. Flight attendants were primarily pilots. Service was attentive, efficient, caring, timely, personal. Came away reinforced that economy has the option of being a pleasant experience.

Then, connected to AA London Heathrow to Chicago in BUSINESS. Flight attendants were cranky, inefficient, rarely available...ended up having to share an entree with my seatmate after "order was mixed up" and "they ran out" sans apologies or acknowledgement.

For me, when everyone and everything works well to get you into that seat on that airline, the flight attendants are last point of remembrance and have the ultimate opportunity of public relations, salesmanship and WOW delivery.

A strike with passengers behind striking workers is the ultimate victory. Can you even envision that....

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Maybe AA is the best us airline although us carriers are far away from European standarts ..

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geohoveuk you are right, I came back home yesterday with a 767 european config and it was in a very bad condition,the plane was dirty the seats were torned and i couldn't see any tv as it was overhead and i was seating on a window seat, but i ate wonderful. I just hope for better days after the summer when they will receive the 787's,first of all staying loyal to an airline and pay sometimes more money has also the advantages from their loyal programe but mostly you fly with them because you enjoy it.

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geo..." what you're saying INSATRVLR is that you were served by 'scabin crew' who are paid roughly £100,000 per annum".

I can guarantee you the pilots that were on that flight were making nowhere near that figure, that is a senior Captains pay, the FO and SO's are on an average starting salary of £38000 including flight pay.

I see nothing wrong with BA spending 40-50 million in the short term to secure billions in savings in the long term.

I've heard so much talk about unite/bassa complaining that management is turning BA into a lost cost carrier, and all they are trying to do is "save" the BA they know and love!! what a load of tosh!!

They are employees, they are there to work... end of!! Management are there to manage and as such they can send the company in any direction they and the shareholders want.

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And has everyone forgotten that the B A Pilots earn an average of £109,000?!!!

I am sure they are much more capable of taking a cut, or reducing their perks than the Cabin staff, especially trying to live in the London area...?

Regardless of the very heavy debate & emotions being slung around on here now, it remains a fact that permanent damage has been done, by both sides, to the reputation of the Airline, & confidence to book ahead with BA.

For me, as a Director, Any Management / leadership to have ended up in such a position, in such blatant public conflict with its employees, has failed, & should be removed.

I hear from the city, that patience is running out with BA now, & that it is commonly concluded that if BA do not return to profit within 12 months & show indications of this progressively, that The Company may well find itself not being seen as viable anymore. This is increasingly being reported through BBC / The Times Newsnight, when you look at notable City Analysts in the big Banks starting to call time on BA.

Certainly, if we are all businessmen on here, the principles of good practice management would be familiar, & are not evident at B A.

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MarcusUK - I couldn't agree more.

Any management team which goes to this lengths to publicly alienate its workforce, especially within a service industry should be sacked. A business is only as strong as its employees. BA may well return to short term profitability after this fiasco however I don't think we'll see the longer term brand damage for some time.

Its a real shame as the hard product is good, however I (like many others) differentiate on the service both in the air and on the ground. A unhappy workforce are not going to live your brand and keep the customers coming back, they are never going to go that extra mile and never going give the impression they love their job - all key elements for any business providing a service where there is a degree of choice.

As a director, I've made the choice (where possible) to put my organisations business with other carriers as I can't run an organisation which relies on air travel using a carrier I a) can't rely upon and b) fundamentally disagree with the way in which the whole situation is being managed.

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I am suprised at the comments "as a director" etc. If we are all business people, then we will know that not all situations are as clean cut. The situation now is there are no strike dates and the union and BA are talking.

It can be argued that you would not use any form of transport or company that is unionised. You could say you are not going to use the tube as it might go on strike. What about flying LH, the pilots have been on strike, are they off the list as well?

Whether you agree or disagree with the way Willie Walsh has handled the situation or indeed Unite/BASSA, the facts are that the strike was not well supported, there are no new strike dates and the union and BA are talking.

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Loyal-BA is right that the "product is good" but after many years of flying almost only BA, I have had to use other carriers as BA has stopped flying on the routes I use most often (notably out of LGW to Poland). So I have been using Aer Lingus (now stopped on that route too) and EasyJet. Initially sceptical that they could match BA, I have found the service is very little different. On board security, safety, announcements in some ways look better. CAA say these staff earn less than BA counterparts. If BA is to compete on short-haul, it has to get its cost base in line with other carriers offering same product.

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NTarrant - the only reason I say "as a director" in my case is to make the point that I'm making travel policy decisions for an organisation as opposed to just myself.

I have no problem in using unionised transport - my issues is with BA's handling of this situation - that’s not to say the unions are blameless - they are however representing people whereas the BA board are running a business. The aims of what both are trying to achieve is not the issue - the execution is (speaking personally).

Its positive that both sides are talking and lets hope both sides come to the table with a view on actual negotiation this time.

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Geohoveuk, in all the press reports I have read and seen in the media, I don't think you will find that WW has been "smearing the goodwill and professionalism of a large segment of his workforce"

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Geo: -

I'm not entirely sure whether your latest post is supposed to be sarcastic or not. Hopefully it is. If it isn't, quite frankly you're bonkers!

The events of the last few days have underlined how fragile the airline industry is.

Unite's best course of action would be to advise its cabin crew members to accept BA's proposals, drop any further strike threats and get back to work as soon as aircraft can fly again.

Otherwise, it seems even more likely that a large number of their members will be joining the dole queues.

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Geo and First Pax - if the children dont talk then the toys will be thrown. For goodness sake, hasnt anybody learnt anything over the last few days.

All flights in Northern Europe have been grounded, not by some mad politician, lunatic terrorist, left wing socialist or right wing tory, but by mother nature itself.

Stop playing games with other peoples lives and stop pretending each side has the singular and correct answer. The biggest voice of all was that volcano with no brain. If only the kids in this dispute each used just a minute part of their combined brain power, there would be a sensible solution.

Now, here's your rattle Willy and here's your doll unite!

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Hello Everyone again,

I just posted on the 'cabin crew perks thread and made the error of looking on this one to find the same people having a go at each other about almost the same thing on this thread.

Martyn, well said. are you perhaps willing to volunteer to mediate between the chldren? Perhaps they should both have all their toys taken from them until they learn to play nicely again.

Safe travels again everyone,

Jonathan

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You know what Jonathan, you are probably right in that they should BOTH have their toys taken away until they play nicely.

And to answer your other question, yes I do think a panel of VK,Geo, you, N Tarrant, my goodself of course, coul dprobably bring together a far more interesting and productive solution that the like of Walsh, Unite/Bassa.

My solution would to simply put Walsh and Directos in one room, Unite and Bassa + members of committee, in another room. Us in an adjoining room, lock the doors and raise a flag when all has been agreed. Maybe i look at things too simply, but surely, Mother nature who has the biggest voice of all has spoken over the last 6 days and all concenred, should take note and realise that life aint so bad.

So Jonny boy 09, when you have gathered the toys, lock the playroom up and get these schmuks talking again.!

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What a splendid idea Martyn

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NTarrant - if only life were that simple and BT had suffient influence, u never know............

We could ask VK to supply the gourmet food!

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Hello everyone,

Martyn, NT, Geo, VK how about we offer our services to ACAS or direct to BA and Unite. If we broker a solutuion perhaps we could get free flights in F for life!!!

I know, I know get real Jonny boy 09. Well we can all live in hope.

VK, just wanted you to know that I have been persuaded by an old friend of mine at BA to give them another try so I look forward to posting about my experiences and to perhaps even meeting some of my fellow posters in the lounges at T5.

Safe travels everyone,

Jonathan

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How exciting for you Jonathan! I bet you can't wait!

Alas, I am having withdrawal symptoms having not been near an airport in over a week.

Wasn't it great to be in London at the weekend without all that noise and pollution from the overflying aircraft.

Will all this gourmet food require me to don my apron? Or perhaps I'll just stick to wearing F pyjamas while cooking!

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Hello everyone,

VK, you are right, i am quite looking forward to flying the flag again and to find out what I have been missing.

First flight should be to TLV in J class, i believe that the service has been upgraded from a 767 to a 777 so I am looking forward to sampling the flat bed on a night flight. Only 4h 45mins but I have to start somewhere. If all goes well it will be an SFO in 3 weeks and a HKG at the end of May. you can be sure that I will post my experience good or bad for all to read.

I must admit i quite like the sound of you cooking in your F pj's. What is your speciality in the gourmet food line?

Safe travels everyone,

Jonathan

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Hi Jonathan

Good to hear you are trying BA again. Look forward to your views on J and T5.

F pj's are great for dossing around the house and using as normal pj's. Have only ventured to cooking toast for breakfast in them so not sure about gormet food (or is that Gate Gormet food!!)

Have a good trip

Nigel

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An offer has been put to BASSA by British Airways.

Should be some more news on this tomorrow.

I really think the closure of airspace puts BASSA in a tight spot; crews will be eager to get back to work to earn some dosh having been grounded for several days, the British public will not tolerate another strike in the next fortnight after so many plans have already been disrupted, and the election in just 16 days time means there really isn't much potential to strike in the coming days....

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Are Nigel and VK one of the same (perhaps twins)??

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MartynSinclair -

“All flights in Northern Europe have been grounded, not by some mad politician, lunatic terrorist, left wing socialist or right wing tory, but by mother nature itself.”

If only that were true! I'm afraid all this chaos has been brought about by completely over zealous Bureaucrat's within the barmy EU. Volcanos are active all the time throughout the globe and airlines operate in 'Volcanic Ash' conditions on a par with the coverage over Europe over the past week on a regular basis.

Oh and the mad politicians did get involved and exacerbated the situation. I half expected one of WW jumbos to be diverted to Madrid to land on the Ark Royal so it could sail up the Thames to a smiling and waving Gordon Brown self praising his efforts in rescuing our stranded citizens!!!

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New Strike Ballot next week - surely not !

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Getting very tired of reading un-informed DRIVEL by those who appear to know naff all. This time about planes 'flying through volcanic ash everyday' - what absolute tosh. If you knew anything at all abt it , you would know airlines and pilots know very well that planes and ash do not mix. To the point where it is avoided like the plague. The fact that airlines were so desperate to get back in the air they would try anything. One has to question the viability of any business - regardless of the industry that is so deperate after losing only abt 6 days revenue out of 365 or abt 1.6% ... and then talking abt govt handouts. If these businesses are running that close to the wind .. they should not be in business as it would appear that any minor upset can put them under.

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AsiaPacific - Is that really Lord Adonis?

Of course pilots will avoid flying near or through the immediate vinicity of an erupting volcano but 600 miles away the diltution is such that it offers very little danger to aircraft. A generic summation such as "Ash and planes don't mix" is pretty much in line with your statement "losing only abt 6 days revenue".

Why do you think there was such a major turnaround in such a short time about safely operating even though there was increased activity from the volcano just before the ban was lifted? There was major backtracking going on believe me.

Little more needs to be said other than you clearly can't be in business if you think suffering a total loss of revenue for 6 days plus having to pay out compensation is not majorly damaging to a company.

And yes the airline industry does sail close to the wind but ask anyone on this site what they think about a world wthout the industry operating!

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British Airways, Virgin, bmi, easyjet etc are shareholders of NATS via the holding company known as 'The Airline Group'. I would guess that this may have influenced some decisions. Whilst 49% of NATS is government owned, The Airline Group hold 42%. BAA hold a further 5% and would be similarly interested in getting planes off the ground (ferrying passengers through their shops beforehand of course!).

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Red Flyer - I may have let my mother in law fly into volcanic ash, but as a pilot, I choose the safer option of waiting until the facts are known.

Please let me know if you intend flying if another volcano blows, then you could possibly be the test bed, preferably in a hot air balloon.

Now stop being so silly and behave yourself................

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I am not sure of the exact chain of events in this but I think you will find that the decision to close and re-open airspace was taken by the department of transport under guidance from the CAA. NATS as an air traffic service provider would supply opinions and expertise but the decision to open or close airspace would be taken by the relevant government department.

I for one am glad that we erred on the side of caution. A 'stand for safety' was taken and ,probably under fairly intense pressure from a lot of agencies, after information and expertise was sought, a solution was found. Could it have been done quicker - arguably yes but when you are the one making that decision it can't be easy . Considering the ramifications of getting it wrong - I think a fairly good job was done.

Just a thought

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BA faces new strike threat,

British Airways is facing the threat of a fresh cabin crew walkout after the Unite trade union leadership rejected the airline's latest peace offer.

New strikes could be called for next month following a consultative ballot of 12,000 members of The British Airlines Stewards and Stewardesses Association.

But it is understood the parent union, Unite, will not announce strike dates ahead of the General Election in an attempt to avoid embarrassing Gordon Brown over its role as a key financier of the Labour party.

But negotiations have collapsed over the withdrawal of flight concessions from strikers and disciplinary action taken against more than 50 cabin crew.

BA offered to reinstate strikers' free staff travel from October 1. But the airline said those who participated in the walkout would be treated as if they had just joined the airline, losing the rights they had earned during their years of service.

Its stance was condemned by Tony Woodley, Unite's joint general secretary.

“Despite important progress made in a number of respects, management has refused to budge on victimising cabin crew who had their travel concessions withdrawn as a result of the strike. It is also taking vindictive and disproportionate disciplinary action against union members in defiance of the words in the agreement they are asking us to endorse," he said.

“It is disappointing that talks with the company have concluded without producing an agreement we can recommend to cabin crew. However, the blame for this rests exclusively with an intransigent management which is determined to attack trade unionism and persecute its employees who supported the lawful strike action taken last month."

However a question mark remains over whether the union could call a fresh strike so long after the original ballot which granted the mandate for the initial walkouts.

Meanwhile a BA spokesman condemned the union.

"It is extremely disappointing that Unite is urging its members to reject our latest offer and apparently preparing for a further strike shortly after the General Election campaign ends.

Unite is showing callous disregard for our customers and our business only a few days after we have begun our recovery from the longest and costliest airspace shutdown in history."

http://aggbot.com/docs/link.php?id=9256697&t=ba

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As always Geohoveuk a very emotional post, talking as though the world is going to end for crews. You have some very flawed ideas too. You say BA have created a very mediocre 3 to 4* airline. Maybe in your eyes, but not mine or indeed many others. They will do things which we don't agree with but overall the product and the staff provide a good service. The very staff you put on a pedastal you then tell them they are mediocre!! So what is it? Knock the airline you knock the staff.

BA don't feature in the top 10 of prefered airlines between the UK and Australia, really, which survey are you looking at.

This must be the classic of statements coming from someone who is allegedly a business man "Crew are victimised for patterns of sickness" too right they should. If they have genuine illness then fine but those that always fail to report on a Monday and go sick because they were on the p*** over the weekend deserve to placed through the disciplinary procedure. Sickness costs companies thousand of pounds in lost production and service every year and BA is no exception. There are not many companies that have not clamped down to weedle out those that just take the mickey out the system.

Agreed conditions of employment are not cast in stone. The agreements you go on about were not the original agreements, they are new agreements. Agreements have to change to reflect the business, get over it and move on.

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Well said geohoveuk..You have hit the nail on the head..I wonder how many of the people contributing to the forum actually work for, or are with someone who is at BA..My partner has worked for BA for 32 years, all of which ( apart from since WW took over ) have been good,fun and loyal years..I have seen what is happening and it 'aint nice..I hope that the people writing, who don't work there aren't subjected to the same changes from their employer in the future, when new management arrive and start changing things..Don't beleive what you see in the papers, you have to see it for yourself..They are fighting for their future..They aren't militants ( if my partner was they would be out of favour !! )..I hope that they don't go on strike again,but if they do I will support my partner through thick and thin, as their future is being decided for them regardless of their thoughts..This is happening to too many companies who aren't getting the publicity, so don't be shocked when it happens to you.. I could go on and on, but have to have my say..They aren't greedy grasping people, they are ordinary people doing a damn good job. Next time you fly BA you should appreciate all the hard work that they are putting into looking after you on your flight, but if the proposed changes go through, then kiss good-bye to the great service and say hello to a new breed of cheap labour looking after you.

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Again Geohoveuk you are letting emotions get into the debate. The world will not end for these people, they will have to work a bit harder, just like people in the bus industry and the rail industry had to 25 and 20 years ago.

Most BA ground crew are outsourced around the world, even Manchester and Glasgow its Aviance. Outsourcing is nothing new and cost effective.

Lives for the workers, at what cost? They have good lives, better than some in the industry. It is not about bonus for the boss or dividends for shareholders it is about remaining competative and giving the customer the service they want. Yes the crew do have to apologise for malfunctioning IFE, but that is what the job is all about.

I think you too should have a few bevvies this weekend Geo to drown your sorrows. Cheers

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Again Geohoveuk you are letting emotions get into the debate. The world will not end for these people, they will have to work a bit harder, just like people in the bus industry and the rail industry had to 25 and 20 years ago.

Most BA ground crew are outsourced around the world, even Manchester and Glasgow its Aviance. Outsourcing is nothing new and cost effective.

Lives for the workers, at what cost? They have good lives, better than some in the industry. It is not about bonus for the boss or dividends for shareholders it is about remaining competative and giving the customer the service they want. Yes the crew do have to apologise for malfunctioning IFE, but that is what the job is all about.

I think you too should have a few bevvies this weekend Geo to drown your sorrows. Cheers

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Again Geohoveuk you are letting emotions get into the debate. The world will not end for these people, they will have to work a bit harder, just like people in the bus industry and the rail industry had to 25 and 20 years ago.

Most BA ground crew are outsourced around the world, even Manchester and Glasgow its Aviance. Outsourcing is nothing new and cost effective.

Lives for the workers, at what cost? They have good lives, better than some in the industry. It is not about bonus for the boss or dividends for shareholders it is about remaining competative and giving the customer the service they want. Yes the crew do have to apologise for malfunctioning IFE, but that is what the job is all about.

I think you too should have a few bevvies this weekend Geo to drown your sorrows. Cheers

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I believe this is the topic that's more likely to continue our conversation about the strike,

here some things i read earlier at BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8413529.stm

With this bullet to be the most important :

According to a 2009 survey for the Civil Aviation Authority, BA's cabin crew are well paid in industry terms with average earnings of £29,900 a year, including bonuses and allowances, compared with £14,400 at Virgin Atlantic.

I don't know exactly how the things in UK works but let's be reasonable, BA crew are well payed and generally there is a crisis, for example BMI (Lufthansa) plans to dismiss 800 people.

Why is to hard to have a settlement here, is there any problem because BA was not from the beginning private?

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"is there any problem because BA was not from the beginning private"

Could have something to do with it .

However on a realistic note and taking into account the massive debts that the "old worlds favourite" is now suffering ...maybe.. just maybe it might be time for our new lords and masters Mr Cam & Clegg to consider some old fashioned socialist (groans abound) policies and re - nationalise the airline. Rather unlikely of course but ..

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